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Re: Rick's exposition on Colin Patterson!

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  • Robert Baty
    ... From: w_w_c_l To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Patterson must be a dufus [sic!] ... DB Willis quotes from
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 5, 2009
      ------------Forwarded Message------------

      From: w_w_c_l
      To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009 8:33 PM

      Subject: Re: Patterson must be a dufus [sic!]

      ? --- In coCBanned@yahoogroups.com, DBWILLIS@... wrote:

      > DW here
      > You can take Rick's word or C
      > Patterson's as to whether or not the
      > recapitulation theory was still "alive
      > and well."
      > http://www.creationism.org/books/sunderland/DarwinsEnigma/DarwinsEnig\ma_05MoreProblems.htm

      DB Willis quotes from Luther Sunderland's "Darwin's

      >| At the time of the interview, Dr. Patterson must
      >| not have been aware that recapitulation theory
      >| had fallen into disrepute for he said that he
      >| felt comfortable with it and that it was still
      >| alive: "It's one of the few things that I
      >| think has survived. The expectation in Darwin's
      >| time was that all we need do was look at fossils
      >| and they would give us the answers. But it's
      >| true to say they haven't. I do like the ideas of
      >| embryology. That's one of the few things that has
      >| stood the test of time." When asked if he was aware
      >| that the human embryo at no time was anthropoid in
      >| appearance but that the ape embryo appears humanoid
      >| at one point and so was backwards, he replied, "It's
      >| only backwards if you insist that man is the highest
      >| point in the evolutionary tree, which I wouldn't try
      >| to say." Since the interview, Dr. Patterson has
      >| become an anti-evolutionist, so perhaps he has changed
      >| his beliefs about the evidence from embryology. >>

      You are not asking me to take Patterson's word, you are
      asking me to take Sunderland's word.

      Willis, you have got to quit getting your information from
      such places. Sunderland says here that Patterson had become
      an anti-evolutionist. A few paragraphs later he claims that
      Haeckel was convicted of forgery in a German court.

      These aren't just misrepresentations, they are out-and-out
      lies. Why should I believe this guy when he says that
      Patterson must not have realized there was anything wrong
      with recapitulation theory? What, specifically, is the
      "it" that has survived? We don't see Sunderland's actual
      question here so there is no way, from this, of determining
      exactly what he asked. But from what I've heard the
      transcripts of the interviews are available from ERIC and
      they don't quite match up with Sunderland's words in
      "Darwin's Enigma" -- one anti-creationist urges readers to
      obtain the transcripts and see for themselves how the actual
      interviews differ from Sunderland's written accounts of

      Sunderland also claims that chimp embryos go through a
      humanoid stage, but that human embryos don't go through
      an anthropoid stage. What kind of nonsense is that?
      Humans are *the* archetypical anthropoid. But recapitulation
      theory is wrong, remember? *REMEMBER???* Chimp embryos
      don't go through any humanoid stage! Sunderland is lying
      about it -- plain, bald-faced lies -- and you are using
      these lies to try to sully the name of a dead scientist.

      Not only that, Sunderland says in another place, referencing
      "Parents Magazine" rather than primary literature, that the
      human embryo is unmistakably human all the way through its
      development. This is a direct contradiction of his own
      assertion that human embryos don't go through any stage
      where they appear to be "anthropoid".

      (By the way, Willis, you haven't answered the question
      about whether you deny that human embryos have tails...)

      So Patterson published the first edition of his book,
      "Evolution" in 1978. The interview he afforded Sunderland
      was in 1979. He gave his so-called "anti-evolution" talk in
      1981. In 1985 he presented a paper at the Third International
      Congress of Systematic and Evolutionary Biology, held at the
      University of Sussex, titled "Molecules and Morphology in
      Evolution: Conflict or Compromise?"

      Do you honestly believe "The Conspiracy" would have allowed
      Patterson to present at such a prestigious conference if
      he had indeed become an anti-evolutionist?

      Sunderland first published "Darwin's Enigma" in 1984, claiming
      that Patterson had become an anti-evolutionist. This must have
      been quite some news to Patterson, because he evidently had
      no idea he had become an anti-evolutionist. Sunderland published
      a slightly revised version of "Darwin's Enigma" in 1988,
      including material from Michael Denton's 1985 "Theory in Crisis",
      but neglected to correct his misrepresentation of Patterson as
      having become an anti-evolutionist.

      Here is what Patterson wrote in 1988:

      | "Chelvam asserts that 'we are drowning' in evidence
      | against darwinism. He cites nothing beyond the
      | remarks attributed to me. It seems possible that
      | he confuses two theories under the name of darwinism,
      | the general theory of common ancestry or descent with
      | modification, and Darwin's special theory of mechanism,
      | natural selection. If he knows of evidence inconsistent
      | with the general theory of common descent, he should
      | tell us what it is. I know of none."
      (Colin Patterson in a letter to the editor, _Nature_ 332:580, 1988).

      And we have already seen the remarks that Robert provided
      from the preface of Patterson's 2nd edition of "Evolution",

      These are hardly the words of an "anti-evolutionist", Willis.

      > Of course since CP has committed the height of treachery...
      > to admit that the Emperor has no clothes...I suppose
      > it now is necessary for ev's like Rick to assassinate him.

      Why would I want to do that?

      I'm not the one calling Patterson a "dufus" [sic!].

      I'm not the one who claims he was either lying in 1981
      or later.

      I'm not the one who claims he was trying to engage in
      "damage control" afterward.

      Colin Patterson never once "admitted the Emperor has no
      clothes", if you are trying to use that to say that he
      was in doubt that evolution is a fact and that there is
      overwhelming evidence for it. And if that isn't what
      you mean, then how can you say he has committed the
      height of treachery?

      > What would a dufus like CP know anyway about what is or
      > isn't "alive and well" in current ev theory?

      Apparently a lot more than you do. You have tried to
      conflate comparative embryology with Haeckel's discredited
      ideas, you have tried to confuse scientific objections to
      "neo-Darwinism" as being an abandonment of modern evolutionary
      theory, you have *repeatedly* -- "whether through design or
      stupidity I do not know" -- tried to pretend that any
      dispute among scientists as to *how* evolution occurs is
      evidence that evolution does not occur.

      Sorry, but that isn't the way it works.

      If *you* knew what is "alive and well" in current evolutionary
      theory, you would not be ableto , in honesty, make these

      > I think after reading the mumbo jumbo from Rick, it
      > is hard to say WHAT Rick means. Sounds to me that he
      > thinks embryology DOES support ev...but he just wants
      > to distance himself from the Haeckel fiasco. Typical ev...
      > plausible deniability.

      Haeckel's work wasn't exactly a fiasco, despite creationist
      portrayals of him. The "Biogenetic Law" is not a law at all,
      there are too many exceptions to it; but as Gould points out
      in "Ontogeny and Phylogeny" it can never be wholly discredited
      because there is too much evidence for it. While Haeckel's
      work may have sent embryologists in the wrong direction for a
      while and may have given the non-scientific public some
      lingering erroneous conceptions, there is absolutely no
      substance in trying to pretend that Haeckel's drawings,
      "fraud" or not, are evidence against the fact of biological

      Yes, embryology does support evolution, and studies of
      embryological development coupled with genetics have given
      us a lot of information about when (not so much in years
      but step-wise) divergences took place, as well as how
      genes interact during the embryo's development.

      > BTW, Terry....Waytago in finding the evidence that textbooks
      > are still pushing the embryo crap...by WHATEVER name they are
      > calling it these days.

      Yes, textbooks are still pushing the "embryo crap". If you
      don't like it, that's tough. Equating the "embryo crap"
      with Haeckel's ideas, and then pretending that the "embryo
      crap" in the textbooks was discredited long ago but
      evolutionists are knowingly pushing false information in
      order to brainwash kids, is intellectually dishonest.

      And here's something else that is dishonest -- not so much
      intellectually but just plain dishonest -- that we have
      seen again and again, and especially most recently in
      regard to Colin Patterson:

      1. The evolutionist says something.
      2. The creationist misrepresents what was said.
      3. The evolutionist points out the misrepresentation
      and tries to clarify the point being made.
      4. The creationist then accuses the evolutionist of
      engaging in "damage control", of lying, of cover-up.

      That is despicable behavior. Using that technique I
      could make any sort of false claim about you and then
      when you denied it I could just say, "Well, naturally
      DB Willis would deny that. Certainly he wouldn't want
      the truth about that to get out."

      In another post I will try to demonstrate what Patterson
      meant by his "anti-evolutionary" or "non-evolutionary"
      comments and why he suggested that the way the systematists
      of the time were approaching their work could be likened to

      Rick Hartzog
      Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism


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    • Robert Baty
      ... From: w_w_c_l To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009 8:48 PM Subject: Sunderland agrees with Patterson about the Flood! ... (P. 185,
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 5, 2009
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        From: w_w_c_l
        To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009 8:48 PM

        Subject: Sunderland agrees with Patterson about the Flood!


        > > [C]reationists lack scientific
        > > research or evidence to support...
        > > a world-wide flood (Noah's)...

        | Luther Sunderland, New York's leading creationist, wants
        | his colleagues to be careful when discussing the subject
        | of origins in educational and scientific circles. Among
        | his warnings is this most interesting item ? "Do not talk
        | about a flood because there is no way a single world flood
        | can be derived from scientific evidence alone. Talk about
        | global catastrophes."

        (P. 185, Scopes II: the Great Debate
        by Louisiana State Senator Bill Keith)

        (For those who don't know, Bill Keith was the sponsor of
        the bill to get creation science into Louisiana public
        schools, which led to the Edwards vs. Aguillard case.)

        This explains why you so often see creationists trying to
        pawn off the false dichotomy of Uniformitarianism vs.
        Catastrophism and pretending that modern geologists are
        not very well aware that catastrophes can and do show
        up in the geologic record.



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