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Re: Rick's exposition on Colin Patterson!

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  • Robert Baty
    ... Sincerely, Robert Baty ... From: DBWILLIS@aol.com To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 10:25 AM Subject: Re: Colin Patterson s 1981
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 5, 2009
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      In response to DBWillis' latest misdirection on the coCBanned list, a copy of which follows my name below, here is more from Colin Patterson and the 1999 preface:

      > "When I began the first edition of
      > this book I had one overriding aim,
      > to keep it simple. If I had an audience
      > in mind, I suppose it was my elder
      > daughter, then 15 or 16...

      > The intervening years have certainly
      > been the most dramatic and
      > exhilarating in the entire history
      > of evolutionary biology, with
      > important developments in the
      > techniques of study, in disputes
      > over many aspects of doctrine
      > and philosophy, and with
      > evolutionary thoery being brought
      > into the courtroom and the polling
      > booth by creationists.

      > Of course, my own beliefs and
      > opinions have shifted and vacillated
      > during those years, and in sitting
      > down to begin a second edition of
      > the book I had only two alternatives:
      > to stick to my original aim of keeping
      > it short and simple, or to write an
      > entirely different book.

      > I settled on the first of those, not
      > just out of indolence, but as the work
      > went on I found that a rather
      > different book was emerging."

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      -------------DBWillis' message------------


      From: DBWILLIS@...
      To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 10:25 AM

      Subject: Re: Colin Patterson's 1981 Speech...fuller context confirms my poin

      ?DW here,

      The book quoted by Rick and Baty was a 2nd edition of a book WRITTEN IN
      1978.

      In the speech in 1981 Patterson indicated his view HAD CHANGED IN THE PAST
      18 MONTHS.

      Hmmmm.

      Just about the time the first edition went on sale!

      So unless there were WHOLESALE revisions in his 1999 edition, we shouldn't
      take TOO seriously what is in the 1999 book.

      I rather doubt that he rewrote
      the whole book.

      However he DID give very telling comments which Baty posted.

      >>CP >>> Neo-Darwinism concerns the
      > explanation of descent with
      > modification, and it emphasizes
      > Darwin's own main contribution,
      > natural selection.

      > I am NO LONGER certain that natural
      > selection is the complete
      > explanation, and I hope the new
      > edition contains enough information,
      > and not too much bias, for the
      > readers to understand the problem
      > and judge the answer for themselves."

      He apparently WAS certain of that in 1978 and then he CHANGED. And it
      appears that what he changed TO in 1981 was still "holding" in 1999.

      I may have to get the book myself to find what OTHER tasty tidbits he put in
      the new edition.

      DBWillis

      --------------------------------
      --------------------------------



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    • Robert Baty
      ... Sincerely, Robert Baty ... From: DBWILLIS@aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 2:39 PM To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Colin Patterson s 1981
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 5, 2009
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        DBWillis, continuing in his efforts at misdirection regarding Colin Patterson (his message follows my name below), asks:

        > BTW, does anyone KNOW what sort
        > of "evolution" process he DID believe
        > in?

        > He rejected Neo-Darwinism and felt
        > natural selection wasn't the answer
        > ....so what WAS?

        As if the previous comments by Patterson were not enough, I will offer yet these further comments from Patterson for DBWillis' consideration:

        > "It is essential to keep in mind the
        > distinction between the general
        > theory--evolution has occurred
        > and species are related by descent--
        > and theories of mechanism --
        > natural selection, neutrlism, etc.

        > Today's theory, accepting that
        > evolution has occurred and
        > explaining it by neo-Darwinism
        > plus neutralism, is the best that
        > we have.

        > It is a fruitful theory, a stimulus
        > to thought and research, and
        > we should accept it until nature
        > prompts someone to think of
        > one that is better or more
        > complete."

        >> page 120

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        --------------DBWillis' message----------

        From: DBWILLIS@...
        Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 2:39 PM
        To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com

        Subject: Re: Colin Patterson's 1981 Speech...fuller context confirms my point

        DW here,

        >>Pi:
        Whatever his opinion on evolution, he was CERTAIN that your YEC arguments
        suffer from: "lack of research or scientific evidence.">>

        So? Behe and tons of others opposing naturalistic ev would also oppose
        YEC. The point in quoting CP is not to say "he sees all things just like WE
        do." It is that he...as one well-informed AND as one who had much to lose in
        saying so...had to admit to the serious PROBLEM presented by the noncorrelation
        of molecular data. He said that an evolutionary view is NOT helpful in
        systematics and that much of the supposed results (building "trees") was due to
        GIGO.

        You either have to say he was a dufus about the subject or you should give a
        fair "weight" to his anti-Neo-Darwinism.

        >>Pi:
        Since Patterson died in 1998, before the 1999 book was published, I don't
        think he was too worried about his job.>>

        Well, he may have figured he would still need one for a few years when he
        wrote that (in 97 or 98?). Or do you figure he wrote the new stuff AFTER he
        died?

        BTW, does anyone KNOW what sort of "evolution" process he DID believe in?
        He rejected Neo-Darwinism and felt natural selection wasn't the answer....so
        what WAS?

        DBWillis

        -------------------------------------
        -------------------------------------



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      • Robert Baty
        Terry W. Benton, http://www.pinelanechurchofchrist.com , has put on yet again another ape act and try to interview Colin Patterson. See his message
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 5, 2009
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          Terry W. Benton,

          http://www.pinelanechurchofchrist.com ,

          has put on yet again another "ape" act and try to interview Colin Patterson. See his message following my name below.

          Colin, what was that you had to say to Terry W. Benton about fossils?

          Colin Patterson:

          > "In several animal and plant groups
          > enough fossils are known to bridge
          > the wide gaps between existing
          > types...

          > There are many other examples of
          > fossil 'missing links', such as
          > Archaeopteryx, the Jurassic bird
          > which links birds with dinosaurs,
          > or Ichthyostega and Acanthostega,
          > late Devonian amphibians which link
          > land vertebrates and the extinct
          > (having internal nostrils) fishes.

          > But there are still great gaps in the
          > fossil record...

          > Perhaps the simplest explanation
          > is that in many cases we do not
          > yet know what to look for, or how
          > to recognize it if we found it."

          >> pages 108, 109

          And, Colin, what about Terry's creation story?

          Colin Patterson:

          > "The belief that all organisms are
          > related by descent and have
          > diverged through a natural,
          > historical process has only one
          > main competitor, creation theory,
          > though there are different stories
          > of how the Creator went about His
          > work.

          > All creation theories are purely
          > metaphysical.

          > At one extreme there is the
          > fundamentalist view that apparent
          > evidence for evolution, such as
          > fossils, was built into the newly
          > created rocks to tempt us or test
          > our faith.

          > At the other extreme is the person
          > to whom evidence of evolution only
          > pushes the activity of the Creator
          > further and further into the past.

          > Both of these modifications of the
          > original creation myths are typical
          > evasive moves, avoiding
          > refutation or confrontation by
          > modifying the original theory, or
          > erecting subsidiary theories
          > around it."

          >> page 118

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          --------------Terry's message--------------

          From: Terry W. Benton
          Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 1:24 PM
          To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com

          Subject: Re: Colin Patterson's 1981 Speech...fuller context confirms m...

          So, what does all this prove about Patterson?

          All I can get from this is that he was a dufus that didn't know one thing about evolution, knew there was no fossil evidence for evolution, but was certain it happened anyway.

          So, Patterson:
          I am certain of evolution of all creatures from a common ancestor.

          Terry: Can you tell me the ancestors of the bat?

          Patterson:
          Well, ugh, ugh....

          TB: How did the pre-bat-creature develop wings and radar?

          Patterson:
          Well, ugh, ugh...

          TB: Is there an in-between creature that has half-wings and an imprecise radar sensor?

          Patterson:
          Well, ugh, ugh....

          TB: Is there any evidence in the fossil record of the progression of one creature into becoming a bat?

          Patterson:
          Well, no, but...

          TB: But even though you have no evidence of such an evolution, you think it is as positively confirmed as ANY historical science?

          Patterson:
          Well, I said that when I was under the gun. But,..

          TB: So, why are there no transitional fossils in your book?

          Patterson:
          Well, if I had known of any I would have included them.

          TB: So, without any real evidence, you think that evolution is as confirmed as any historical science?

          Patterson:
          Well, if you will promise not to tell, it is a trade secret among Paleontologists that there is not one shred of evidence we can use to prove that general evolution is true.

          TB: Well, what will you be saying when the other guys are questioning your belief in the fact of evolution?

          Patterson: Well, in that case, I will be telling them what they want to hear. I've got my job to consider, you know.

          Terry W. Benton
          http://www.pinelanechurchofchrist.com


          --- In coCBanned@yahoogroups.com, PIASAN@... wrote:
          >
          > Robert left out this one:
          >
          > Pi (asking Dr. Patterson his opinion of YEC):
          > Dr. Patterson, what do you think of Young Earth Creationism as an
          > alternative explanation to evolution?
          >
          > Patterson:
          > > I am no longer certain that natural
          > > selection is the COMPLETE <emphasis Pi's> explanation,.....
          >
          > >creationists lack scientific
          > > research or evidence to support
          > > such theories as a young earth
          > > (10,000 years old), a world-wide
          > > flood (Noah's) and separate
          > > ancestry for humans and apes
          >
          >
          >
          > Pi:
          > And what of all those statements by creationists citing you (and others) as
          > showing "weaknesses" in evolution?
          >
          > Patterson:
          > their common tactic is to attack
          > > evolution by hunting out debate
          > > or dissent among evolutionary
          > > biologists.
          >
          > > When I published the first edition
          > > I was hardly aware of creationists
          > > but, during the 1980's, like many
          > > other biologists I learned that one
          > > should think carefully about
          > > candour in argument (in publications,
          > > lectures or correspondence) in case
          > > one was furnishing creationist
          > > campaigners with ammunition in
          > > the form of "quotable quotes", OFTEN TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT <empahsis Pi's>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Pi:
          > Dr. Patterson, if the choice were between evolution and YEC, which do you
          > think is better supported by the evidence?
          >
          > Patterson:
          > >creationists lack scientific
          > > research or evidence to support
          > > such theories as a young earth
          > > (10,000 years old),
          >
          > > "Evolution is a certainty."
          >
          > Pi:
          > I think that settles it. Thank you Dr. Patterson.......
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 4/5/2009 11:39:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
          > rlbaty@... writes:
          >
          > DBWillis claims:
          >
          > > Colin Patterson opposes
          > > Neo-Darwinism.
          >
          > Compare that claim with my recent intereview with Colin Patterson:
          >
          > Robert Baty:
          >
          > > Colin, do you consider evolution
          > > a certainty?
          >
          > Colin Patterson:
          >
          > > "Evolution is a certainty."
          >
          > Robert Baty:
          >
          > > How much of a certainty?
          >
          > Colin Patterson:
          >
          > > "I think the idea of common or
          > > shared ancestry and the belief
          > > that all species are related by
          > > descent is now confirmed as
          > > completely as anything can be
          > > in the historical sciences."
          >
          > Robert Baty:
          >
          > > Yeah, sure, but how did it happen?
          >
          > Colin Patterson:
          >
          > > "Neo-Darwinism concerns the
          > > explanation of descent with
          > > modification, and it emphasizes
          > > natural selection."
          >
          > Robert Baty:
          >
          > > You believe in natural selection?
          >
          > Colin Patterson:
          >
          > > Who doesn't!
          >
          > Robert Baty:
          >
          > > Of course! But is natural selection
          > > THE explanation of "descent with
          > > modification"?
          >
          > Colin Patterson:
          >
          > > "I am not certain that natural
          > > selection is the complete
          > > explanation."
          >
          > Robert Baty:
          >
          > > But you are certain about evolution?
          >
          > Colin Patterson:
          >
          > > "Evolution is a certainty."
          >
          > Robert Baty:
          >
          > > So, while being informed of the
          > > certainty of evolution, what is it
          > > that you are ignorant of?
          >
          > Colin Patterson:
          >
          > > "The completeness of neo-Darwinism
          > > as an explanation."
          >
          > Robert Baty:
          >
          > > Aren't we all!
          >
          > > Anything else you wish to add?
          >
          > Colin Patterson:
          >
          > > "The theory of evolution is the
          > > foundation of contemporary
          > > biological science. It unifies
          > > and directs work in all sorts of
          > > specialized fields, from medicine
          > > to geology.
          >
          > > The modern theory is often called
          > > neo-Darwinian: 'Darwinian' because
          > > it uses Darwin's idea of natural
          > > selection, and 'neo' (new) because
          > > it incorporates a theory of heredity
          > > worked out since Darwin's time.
          >
          > > (The outline in my 1999 book) is
          > > amplified, explained and criticized."
          >
          > >> "Evolution", page 1
          >
          > Robert Baty:
          >
          > > OK, let me just get this straight. Are
          > > you saying that evolution is the
          > > certainty and neo-Darwinism as
          > > an explanation is still being worked
          > > out?
          >
          > Colin Patterson:
          >
          > > "Evolution is a certainty. I see common
          > > descent as being as firmly established
          > > as just about anything else in history.
          >
          > > Neo-Darwinism concerns the
          > > explanation.
          >
          > > I am no longer certain that natural
          > > selection is the complete explanation,
          > > and I hope the new edition contains
          > > enough information, and not too
          > > much bias, for readers to understand
          > > the problem and judge the answer
          > > for themselves."
          >
          > Robert Baty:
          >
          > > Thank you for your time and candor,
          > > Colin. We'll try to do just that.

          ---------------------------------
          ---------------------------------



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        • Robert Baty
          ... From: w_w_c_l To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Patterson must be a dufus [sic!] ... DB Willis quotes from
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 5, 2009
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            ------------Forwarded Message------------

            From: w_w_c_l
            To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009 8:33 PM

            Subject: Re: Patterson must be a dufus [sic!]

            ? --- In coCBanned@yahoogroups.com, DBWILLIS@... wrote:

            > DW here
            >
            > You can take Rick's word or C
            > Patterson's as to whether or not the
            > recapitulation theory was still "alive
            > and well."
            > http://www.creationism.org/books/sunderland/DarwinsEnigma/DarwinsEnig\ma_05MoreProblems.htm

            DB Willis quotes from Luther Sunderland's "Darwin's
            Enigma":

            >| At the time of the interview, Dr. Patterson must
            >| not have been aware that recapitulation theory
            >| had fallen into disrepute for he said that he
            >| felt comfortable with it and that it was still
            >| alive: "It's one of the few things that I
            >| think has survived. The expectation in Darwin's
            >| time was that all we need do was look at fossils
            >| and they would give us the answers. But it's
            >| true to say they haven't. I do like the ideas of
            >| embryology. That's one of the few things that has
            >| stood the test of time." When asked if he was aware
            >| that the human embryo at no time was anthropoid in
            >| appearance but that the ape embryo appears humanoid
            >| at one point and so was backwards, he replied, "It's
            >| only backwards if you insist that man is the highest
            >| point in the evolutionary tree, which I wouldn't try
            >| to say." Since the interview, Dr. Patterson has
            >| become an anti-evolutionist, so perhaps he has changed
            >| his beliefs about the evidence from embryology. >>

            You are not asking me to take Patterson's word, you are
            asking me to take Sunderland's word.

            Willis, you have got to quit getting your information from
            such places. Sunderland says here that Patterson had become
            an anti-evolutionist. A few paragraphs later he claims that
            Haeckel was convicted of forgery in a German court.

            These aren't just misrepresentations, they are out-and-out
            lies. Why should I believe this guy when he says that
            Patterson must not have realized there was anything wrong
            with recapitulation theory? What, specifically, is the
            "it" that has survived? We don't see Sunderland's actual
            question here so there is no way, from this, of determining
            exactly what he asked. But from what I've heard the
            transcripts of the interviews are available from ERIC and
            they don't quite match up with Sunderland's words in
            "Darwin's Enigma" -- one anti-creationist urges readers to
            obtain the transcripts and see for themselves how the actual
            interviews differ from Sunderland's written accounts of
            them.

            Sunderland also claims that chimp embryos go through a
            humanoid stage, but that human embryos don't go through
            an anthropoid stage. What kind of nonsense is that?
            Humans are *the* archetypical anthropoid. But recapitulation
            theory is wrong, remember? *REMEMBER???* Chimp embryos
            don't go through any humanoid stage! Sunderland is lying
            about it -- plain, bald-faced lies -- and you are using
            these lies to try to sully the name of a dead scientist.

            Not only that, Sunderland says in another place, referencing
            "Parents Magazine" rather than primary literature, that the
            human embryo is unmistakably human all the way through its
            development. This is a direct contradiction of his own
            assertion that human embryos don't go through any stage
            where they appear to be "anthropoid".

            (By the way, Willis, you haven't answered the question
            about whether you deny that human embryos have tails...)

            So Patterson published the first edition of his book,
            "Evolution" in 1978. The interview he afforded Sunderland
            was in 1979. He gave his so-called "anti-evolution" talk in
            1981. In 1985 he presented a paper at the Third International
            Congress of Systematic and Evolutionary Biology, held at the
            University of Sussex, titled "Molecules and Morphology in
            Evolution: Conflict or Compromise?"

            Do you honestly believe "The Conspiracy" would have allowed
            Patterson to present at such a prestigious conference if
            he had indeed become an anti-evolutionist?

            Sunderland first published "Darwin's Enigma" in 1984, claiming
            that Patterson had become an anti-evolutionist. This must have
            been quite some news to Patterson, because he evidently had
            no idea he had become an anti-evolutionist. Sunderland published
            a slightly revised version of "Darwin's Enigma" in 1988,
            including material from Michael Denton's 1985 "Theory in Crisis",
            but neglected to correct his misrepresentation of Patterson as
            having become an anti-evolutionist.

            Here is what Patterson wrote in 1988:

            | "Chelvam asserts that 'we are drowning' in evidence
            | against darwinism. He cites nothing beyond the
            | remarks attributed to me. It seems possible that
            | he confuses two theories under the name of darwinism,
            | the general theory of common ancestry or descent with
            | modification, and Darwin's special theory of mechanism,
            | natural selection. If he knows of evidence inconsistent
            | with the general theory of common descent, he should
            | tell us what it is. I know of none."
            (Colin Patterson in a letter to the editor, _Nature_ 332:580, 1988).

            And we have already seen the remarks that Robert provided
            from the preface of Patterson's 2nd edition of "Evolution",
            1999.

            These are hardly the words of an "anti-evolutionist", Willis.

            > Of course since CP has committed the height of treachery...
            > to admit that the Emperor has no clothes...I suppose
            > it now is necessary for ev's like Rick to assassinate him.

            Why would I want to do that?

            I'm not the one calling Patterson a "dufus" [sic!].

            I'm not the one who claims he was either lying in 1981
            or later.

            I'm not the one who claims he was trying to engage in
            "damage control" afterward.

            Colin Patterson never once "admitted the Emperor has no
            clothes", if you are trying to use that to say that he
            was in doubt that evolution is a fact and that there is
            overwhelming evidence for it. And if that isn't what
            you mean, then how can you say he has committed the
            height of treachery?

            > What would a dufus like CP know anyway about what is or
            > isn't "alive and well" in current ev theory?

            Apparently a lot more than you do. You have tried to
            conflate comparative embryology with Haeckel's discredited
            ideas, you have tried to confuse scientific objections to
            "neo-Darwinism" as being an abandonment of modern evolutionary
            theory, you have *repeatedly* -- "whether through design or
            stupidity I do not know" -- tried to pretend that any
            dispute among scientists as to *how* evolution occurs is
            evidence that evolution does not occur.

            Sorry, but that isn't the way it works.

            If *you* knew what is "alive and well" in current evolutionary
            theory, you would not be ableto , in honesty, make these
            errors.


            > I think after reading the mumbo jumbo from Rick, it
            > is hard to say WHAT Rick means. Sounds to me that he
            > thinks embryology DOES support ev...but he just wants
            > to distance himself from the Haeckel fiasco. Typical ev...
            > plausible deniability.

            Haeckel's work wasn't exactly a fiasco, despite creationist
            portrayals of him. The "Biogenetic Law" is not a law at all,
            there are too many exceptions to it; but as Gould points out
            in "Ontogeny and Phylogeny" it can never be wholly discredited
            because there is too much evidence for it. While Haeckel's
            work may have sent embryologists in the wrong direction for a
            while and may have given the non-scientific public some
            lingering erroneous conceptions, there is absolutely no
            substance in trying to pretend that Haeckel's drawings,
            "fraud" or not, are evidence against the fact of biological
            evolution.

            Yes, embryology does support evolution, and studies of
            embryological development coupled with genetics have given
            us a lot of information about when (not so much in years
            but step-wise) divergences took place, as well as how
            genes interact during the embryo's development.

            > BTW, Terry....Waytago in finding the evidence that textbooks
            > are still pushing the embryo crap...by WHATEVER name they are
            > calling it these days.

            Yes, textbooks are still pushing the "embryo crap". If you
            don't like it, that's tough. Equating the "embryo crap"
            with Haeckel's ideas, and then pretending that the "embryo
            crap" in the textbooks was discredited long ago but
            evolutionists are knowingly pushing false information in
            order to brainwash kids, is intellectually dishonest.

            And here's something else that is dishonest -- not so much
            intellectually but just plain dishonest -- that we have
            seen again and again, and especially most recently in
            regard to Colin Patterson:

            1. The evolutionist says something.
            2. The creationist misrepresents what was said.
            3. The evolutionist points out the misrepresentation
            and tries to clarify the point being made.
            4. The creationist then accuses the evolutionist of
            engaging in "damage control", of lying, of cover-up.

            That is despicable behavior. Using that technique I
            could make any sort of false claim about you and then
            when you denied it I could just say, "Well, naturally
            DB Willis would deny that. Certainly he wouldn't want
            the truth about that to get out."

            In another post I will try to demonstrate what Patterson
            meant by his "anti-evolutionary" or "non-evolutionary"
            comments and why he suggested that the way the systematists
            of the time were approaching their work could be likened to
            creationism.

            Rick Hartzog
            Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism

            --------------------------------------
            --------------------------------------



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          • Robert Baty
            ... From: w_w_c_l To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009 8:48 PM Subject: Sunderland agrees with Patterson about the Flood! ... (P. 185,
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 5, 2009
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              --------------Forwarded Message-----------

              From: w_w_c_l
              To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009 8:48 PM

              Subject: Sunderland agrees with Patterson about the Flood!

              Patterson:

              > > [C]reationists lack scientific
              > > research or evidence to support...
              > > a world-wide flood (Noah's)...

              | Luther Sunderland, New York's leading creationist, wants
              | his colleagues to be careful when discussing the subject
              | of origins in educational and scientific circles. Among
              | his warnings is this most interesting item ? "Do not talk
              | about a flood because there is no way a single world flood
              | can be derived from scientific evidence alone. Talk about
              | global catastrophes."

              (P. 185, Scopes II: the Great Debate
              by Louisiana State Senator Bill Keith)
              http://ncseweb.org/cej/4/3/advice-from-luther-sunderland-to-his-fellow-creationists

              (For those who don't know, Bill Keith was the sponsor of
              the bill to get creation science into Louisiana public
              schools, which led to the Edwards vs. Aguillard case.)

              This explains why you so often see creationists trying to
              pawn off the false dichotomy of Uniformitarianism vs.
              Catastrophism and pretending that modern geologists are
              not very well aware that catastrophes can and do show
              up in the geologic record.

              Rick

              ------------------------------------
              ------------------------------------



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