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Re: Rick's exposition on Colin Patterson!

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  • Robert Baty
    Rick, I now have Colin s Evolution , second edition-1999, in hand. The first edition was published in 1978. ... Anyway, let me know the specifics you wish to
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 4, 2009
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      Rick,

      I now have Colin's "Evolution", second edition-1999, in hand.

      The first edition was published in 1978.

      While awaiting further information from you about what it is, specifically, you may wish to verify, I did note Colin's following comments in his preface:

      > "(E)volution is about what Darwin
      > called 'descent with modification'-
      > it concerns the idea of common or
      > shared ancestry and the belief that
      > all species are related by descent.

      > I think that belief is now confirmed
      > as completely as anything can be
      > in the historical sciences.

      > Neo-Darwinism concerns the
      > explanation of descent with
      > modification, and it emphasizes
      > Darwin's own main contribution,
      > natural selection.

      > I am no longer certain that natural
      > selection is the complete
      > explanation, and I hope the new
      > edition contains enough information,
      > and not too much bias, for the
      > readers to understand the problem
      > and judge the answer for themselves."

      Anyway, let me know the specifics you wish to check out and I'll let you know what I come up with.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      --------------Rick's Message-----------

      From: w_w_c_l
      Date: Friday, April 3, 2009 9:17 PM

      (excerpt)

      Robert,

      Hey there, old buddy.

      I have a favor to ask.

      I have here some quotes from the 2nd edition of Patterson's "Evolution" that I'd like to verify as accurate before I post them.

      Title: Evolution
      Author: Patterson, Colin.
      Publisher: Ithaca, N.Y. : Comstock Pub. Associates, 1999.

      Location: Morgan
      CALL #: QH366.2 .P37 1999

      Status: Available

      Think you could help me out?

      No rush.

      Rick

      -----------------------------------------
      -----------------------------------------



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Robert Baty
      ... From: w_w_c_l To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Rick s exposition on Colin Patterson! Robert, I do very much
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 4, 2009
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        --------------Forwarded Message-----------

        From: w_w_c_l
        To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009 8:34 PM

        Subject: Re: Rick's exposition on Colin Patterson!

        Robert,

        I do very much appreciate you coming through for me. As
        to the first order of business, the quote you selected
        from the preface hits the nail on the head. That is
        exactly what I was looking for, for starters.

        I'm going to copy your message over into the other
        thread, take care of that item, and then we'll look
        at something else.

        Along about page 117, I understand, Patterson talks
        about how the theory has passed a number of tests
        Darwin could never have dreamed of, including its
        consistency with genetics and and "the evidence from
        DNA sequences of innumerable 'vestigial organs' at the
        molecular level."

        (Not *literal* vestigial organs, you understand, but
        genetic sequences.)

        And then on through page 119 he is describing molecular
        evolution as a "neutral" theory which can be scientifically
        tested, and says that homologous sequences and misprints
        are, to him, uncontrovertible evidence of common descent.

        Am I accurately representing Patterson's words, written
        not long before he died?

        If he had become an anti-evolutionist he must have taken
        it with him to the grave.

        (Robert, remember that episode where certain of the
        ContendingFTF tried to claim that Foy E. Wallace, Jr. had
        become a young-earther before he died, and they had heard
        him say so?)

        If there is anything in there about recapitulation theory
        I'd like to know what Patterson has to say about that, as well.

        But the *next* quotes I'd like to see are supposedly on
        page 122 where Patterson talks about the creationists
        taping his 1981 talk and their use of such tactics because
        they lack any evidence for their young-earth beliefs or
        for separate ancestry of humans and apes -- something
        about "quotable quotes" taken out of context.

        Thanks again, muchos gracias, mi amigo. Hope you didn't
        get snow in your flip-flops trudging to the library for me!

        Rick

        --------------Robert's Message-----------

        Rick,

        I now have Colin's "Evolution", second edition-1999, in hand.

        The first edition was published in 1978.

        While awaiting further information from you about what it is, specifically, you may wish to verify, I did note Colin's
        following comments in his preface:

        > "(E)volution is about what Darwin
        > called 'descent with modification'-
        > it concerns the idea of common or
        > shared ancestry and the belief that
        > all species are related by descent.

        > I think that belief is now confirmed
        > as completely as anything can be
        > in the historical sciences.

        > Neo-Darwinism concerns the
        > explanation of descent with
        > modification, and it emphasizes
        > Darwin's own main contribution,
        > natural selection.

        > I am no longer certain that natural
        > selection is the complete
        > explanation, and I hope the new
        > edition contains enough information,
        > and not too much bias, for the
        > readers to understand the problem
        > and judge the answer for themselves."

        Anyway, let me know the specifics you wish to check out
        and I'll let you know what I come up with.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ---------------------------------
        ---------------------------------




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert Baty
        ... I ll have to do some browsing on the recapitulation query. As to the creationist thing on page 122, he has a section about a page and half in length that,
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 4, 2009
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          The "Foreward" notes:

          > Colin Patterson died just three days
          > after delivering the final version of
          > the manuscript of this book leaving
          > the final checking of the manuscript
          > and artwork unfinished...We have
          > left the book virtually unchanged,
          > merely correcting minor errors of
          > fact and checking artwork, final
          > versions of which Colin never saw.

          From page 117:

          > 14.2 Is evolution science?

          > Darwin cited several observations
          > which would, in his view, destroy
          > his theory. In this he was more
          > candid than his opponents. The
          > potential tests Darwin mentioned
          > are:

          > ...

          > Darwin's potential tests may strike
          > the reader as pretty feeble, or as
          > tests of natural selection rather
          > than evolution, but many discoveries,
          > not foreseen by Darwin, provide
          > more severe tests of the theory.

          > These include Mendelian genetics,
          > the real age of the earth, the
          > universality of DNA and the genetic
          > code and (most recently and
          > spectacularly) the evidence from
          > DNA sequences of innumerable
          > "vestigial organs" at the molecular
          > level.

          > Evolution has survived all of these
          > with flying colors.

          From pages 118, 119:

          > 14.3 Alternative theories

          > Creation theory...
          > Natural selection theory...
          > Lamarkian theory...
          > Macromutation theories...

          > Finally, there is the neutral theory
          > of molecular evolution...

          > It was a bold proposal, not only
          > because...but because it was made
          > in mathematical terms and had
          > obvious testable consequences,
          > such as....

          > That last prediction has been met,
          > and other subsequent discoveries
          > match the predictions of neutral
          > theory, such as...

          > Neutral theory is therefore more
          > like a theory in physics or chemistry
          > than other evolutionary theories;
          > it makes bold, testable predictions,
          > and can be put in law-like form...

          > This law has not yet been proved
          > false.

          I'll have to do some browsing on the recapitulation query.

          As to the creationist thing on page 122, he has a section about a page and half in length that, for those who know, makes reference to his problems.

          He makes reference to the problems at the museum and all those article in "Nature and the Arkansas trial in vogue at the time.

          I didn't find any specific reference to the taping incident, but consider the following excerpts from page 122:

          > 14.5 Science and politics

          > In the UK creationism maintains a
          > much lower profile, presumably
          > because, with no written constitution,
          > an established church and religion
          > taught in public schools, there is
          > no point in a political campaign
          > opposing the teaching of evolution.

          > Because creationists lack scientific
          > research or evidence to support
          > such theories as a young earth
          > (10,000 years old), a world-wide
          > flood (Noah's) and separate
          > ancestry for humans and apes,
          > their common tactic is to attack
          > evolution by hunting out debate
          > or dissent among evolutionary
          > biologists.

          > When I published the first edition
          > I was hardly aware of creationists
          > but, during the 1980's, like many
          > other biologists I learned that one
          > should think carefully about
          > candour in argument (in publications,
          > lectures or correspondence) in case
          > one was furnishing creationist
          > campaigners with ammunition in
          > the form of "quotable quotes", often
          > taken out of context.

          It wasn't snowing much (we got 2-3 inches last night and this morning), but the wind was blowing about 30 miles an hour when I set out for the library. After about half a mile I turned back and took the bus.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ---------------Rick's Message--------------

          From: w_w_c_l
          To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009 8:34 PM

          Subject: Re: Rick's exposition on Colin Patterson!

          Robert,

          I do very much appreciate you coming through for me. As
          to the first order of business, the quote you selected
          from the preface hits the nail on the head. That is
          exactly what I was looking for, for starters.

          I'm going to copy your message over into the other
          thread, take care of that item, and then we'll look
          at something else.

          Along about page 117, I understand, Patterson talks
          about how the theory has passed a number of tests
          Darwin could never have dreamed of, including its
          consistency with genetics and and "the evidence from
          DNA sequences of innumerable 'vestigial organs' at the
          molecular level."

          (Not *literal* vestigial organs, you understand, but
          genetic sequences.)

          And then on through page 119 he is describing molecular
          evolution as a "neutral" theory which can be scientifically
          tested, and says that homologous sequences and misprints
          are, to him, uncontrovertible evidence of common descent.

          Am I accurately representing Patterson's words, written
          not long before he died?

          If he had become an anti-evolutionist he must have taken
          it with him to the grave.

          (Robert, remember that episode where certain of the
          ContendingFTF tried to claim that Foy E. Wallace, Jr. had
          become a young-earther before he died, and they had heard
          him say so?)

          If there is anything in there about recapitulation theory
          I'd like to know what Patterson has to say about that, as well.

          But the *next* quotes I'd like to see are supposedly on
          page 122 where Patterson talks about the creationists
          taping his 1981 talk and their use of such tactics because
          they lack any evidence for their young-earth beliefs or
          for separate ancestry of humans and apes -- something
          about "quotable quotes" taken out of context.

          Thanks again, muchos gracias, mi amigo. Hope you didn't
          get snow in your flip-flops trudging to the library for me!

          Rick

          -----------------------------------
          -----------------------------------



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        • Robert Baty
          Rick, ... Rick, I have yet to see anything in the book that discusses recapitulation. Sincerely, Robert Baty [Non-text portions of this message have been
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 4, 2009
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            Rick,

            Here's a bit more about that "neutral theory" that might be more what you were looking for; from page 122:

            > 14.6 Summary

            > (excerpts)

            > There is, I believe, no necessary conflict
            > between evolution and religion...

            > I will close by summing up my own
            > opinion on the truth of evolution.

            > In terms of mechanism, or causes of
            > evolutionary change, the neutral
            > theory of molecular evolution is a
            > scientific theory; it can be put in
            > law-like form...

            > This law is tested every time...,
            > and explains...
            > that are otherwise inexplicable.

            > But neutral theory assumes (or
            > includes) truth of the general
            > theory--common ancestry or
            > Darwin's descent with modification--
            > and "misprints" shared between
            > species, like the pseudogenes or
            > reversed Alu sequences, are (to me)
            > incontrovertible evidence of
            > common descent.

            > I see the general historical theory,
            > common descent, as being as
            > firmly established as just about
            > anything else in history.

            > We have compelling reason to
            > believe that Napoleon and the
            > Roman Empire existed, although
            > we don't know every detail...; it
            > is much the same with evolution.

            > There is abundant documentary
            > evidence for Napoleon and the
            > Roman Empire; there is abundant
            > evidence for common descent in
            > the hierarchy of homologies at
            > both the structured and
            > morphological level, though those
            > documents may not be so easy
            > to read.

            Rick, I have yet to see anything in the book that discusses recapitulation.

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty



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          • Robert Baty
            (DBWillis post follows my comments below) ... I m not defending anything here as suggested by DBWillis. I m just reporting, you decide. I ve already voiced
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 4, 2009
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              (DBWillis' post follows my comments below)

              In response to DBWillis' post and how Patterson may have changed, I submit these additional comments from the preface of Patterson's 1999 "Evolution":

              > There is knowledge, a certainty,
              > that comes from education and
              > indoctrination, and a knowledge
              > or certainty that comes from
              > working things out for yourself.

              > Certainty and truth may or may
              > not coincide.

              > The knowledge in my first edition
              > came from education and
              > indoctrination; it was that
              > neo-Darwinism is certainty.

              > The knowledge in this second
              > edition comes more from
              > working things out for myself;
              > it is that evolution is certainty.

              > And part of the ignorance in the
              > first edition concerned the
              > difference between neo-Darwinism
              > and evolution, whereas the
              > ignorance in this edition is of
              > the completeness of neo-Darwinism
              > as an explanation of evolution.

              I'm not "defending" anything here as suggested by DBWillis. I'm just reporting, you decide.

              I've already voiced my opinion about DBWillis, et al, failing to fully consider the context of Patterson's speech and how Patterson's "falsified precisely" comment has, in fact, been misrepresented.

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty

              --------------DBWillis' message------------

              From: DBWILLIS@...
              Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2009 10:31 PM
              To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com

              Subject: Re: Colin Patterson's 1981 Speech...fuller context confirms my point

              DW here,

              Patterson's own words in 1981 say all that needs to be said. One could ask
              when was CP lying...when he said what he did in 1981 thinking it wouldn't be
              heard by anyone but his ev buddies, or later when he was in damage-control
              mode. I would not go as far as to say he definitely WAS totally against
              evolution, however he surely had major difficulties with it. He referred to how
              his position had CHANGED in the last 18 months before that speech...so he
              definitely was not where he HAD been. He HIMSELF used the term
              "anti-evolutionist" and then changed it to "non-evolutionist" to describe his OWN view. So
              quit pretending that I or Sunderland did any "lying." Here again are the very
              generous opening words I wrote about the 1981 speech.

              >>I will readily agree that CP was not saying unequivocally that his view
              about the general theory of evolution had changed to being a non-evolutionist
              (although he does more than hint at that!), however it is INCORRECT to poo-poo
              his comments as if they have no controverting impact at all. >>

              Even that part with Rick and Baty quoted from the 1999 2nd edition indicates
              he STILL was unconvinced that natural selection could explain what he had
              observed over a lifetime of careful study of the molecular sequencing data and
              other "evidence" of evolution.

              CP >>> Neo-Darwinism concerns the
              > explanation of descent with
              > modification, and it emphasizes
              > Darwin's own main contribution,
              > natural selection.

              > I am no longer certain that natural
              > selection is the complete
              > explanation, and I hope the new
              > edition contains enough information,
              > and not too much bias, for the
              > readers to understand the problem
              > and judge the answer for themselves."

              This says he does not consider himself to be Neo-Darwinist and he doubts
              natural selection. To him, the view being defended by Rick, Baty, Todd and Pi
              has too much of a "problem" for him to declare it sound. He tries to soften
              that by saying the reader can judge for themselves, but he seems to have
              already formed his own judgment. Natural selection and Neo-Darwinism had been
              weighed in his balance and was found wanting.

              DW

              ------------------------------------
              ------------------------------------




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Robert Baty
              ... Compare that claim with my recent interview with Colin Patterson: ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 5, 2009
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                DBWillis more recently claims on the coCBanned list:

                > Colin Patterson opposes
                > Neo-Darwinism.

                Compare that claim with my recent interview with Colin Patterson:

                Robert Baty:

                > Colin, do you consider evolution
                > a certainty?

                Colin Patterson:

                > "Evolution is a certainty."

                Robert Baty:

                > How much of a certainty?

                Colin Patterson:

                > "I think the idea of common or
                > shared ancestry and the belief
                > that all species are related by
                > descent is now confirmed as
                > completely as anything can be
                > in the historical sciences."

                Robert Baty:

                > Yeah, sure, but how did it happen?

                Colin Patterson:

                > "Neo-Darwinism concerns the
                > explanation of descent with
                > modification, and it emphasizes
                > natural selection."

                Robert Baty:

                > You believe in natural selection?

                Colin Patterson:

                > Who doesn't!

                Robert Baty:

                > Of course! But is natural selection
                > THE explanation of "descent with
                > modification"?

                Colin Patterson:

                > "I am not certain that natural
                > selection is the complete
                > explanation."

                Robert Baty:

                > But you are certain about evolution?

                Colin Patterson:

                > "Evolution is a certainty."

                Robert Baty:

                > So, while being informed of the
                > certainty of evolution, what is it
                > that you are ignorant of?

                Colin Patterson:

                > "The completeness of neo-Darwinism
                > as an explanation."

                Robert Baty:

                > Aren't we all!

                > Anything else you wish to add?

                Colin Patterson:

                > "The theory of evolution is the
                > foundation of contemporary
                > biological science. It unifies
                > and directs work in all sorts of
                > specialized fields, from medicine
                > to geology.

                > The modern theory is often called
                > neo-Darwinian: 'Darwinian' because
                > it uses Darwin's idea of natural
                > selection, and 'neo' (new) because
                > it incorporates a theory of heredity
                > worked out since Darwin's time.

                > (The outline in my 1999 book) is
                > amplified, explained and criticized."

                >> "Evolution", page 1

                Robert Baty:

                > OK, let me just get this straight. Are
                > you saying that evolution is the
                > certainty and neo-Darwinism as
                > an explanation is still being worked
                > out?

                Colin Patterson:

                > "Evolution is a certainty. I see common
                > descent as being as firmly established
                > as just about anything else in history.

                > Neo-Darwinism concerns the
                > explanation.

                > I am no longer certain that natural
                > selection is the complete explanation,
                > and I hope the new edition contains
                > enough information, and not too
                > much bias, for readers to understand
                > the problem and judge the answer
                > for themselves."

                Robert Baty:

                > Thank you for your time and candor,
                > Colin. We'll try to do just that.




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Robert Baty
                ... Sincerely, Robert Baty ... From: DBWILLIS@aol.com To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 10:25 AM Subject: Re: Colin Patterson s 1981
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 5, 2009
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                  In response to DBWillis' latest misdirection on the coCBanned list, a copy of which follows my name below, here is more from Colin Patterson and the 1999 preface:

                  > "When I began the first edition of
                  > this book I had one overriding aim,
                  > to keep it simple. If I had an audience
                  > in mind, I suppose it was my elder
                  > daughter, then 15 or 16...

                  > The intervening years have certainly
                  > been the most dramatic and
                  > exhilarating in the entire history
                  > of evolutionary biology, with
                  > important developments in the
                  > techniques of study, in disputes
                  > over many aspects of doctrine
                  > and philosophy, and with
                  > evolutionary thoery being brought
                  > into the courtroom and the polling
                  > booth by creationists.

                  > Of course, my own beliefs and
                  > opinions have shifted and vacillated
                  > during those years, and in sitting
                  > down to begin a second edition of
                  > the book I had only two alternatives:
                  > to stick to my original aim of keeping
                  > it short and simple, or to write an
                  > entirely different book.

                  > I settled on the first of those, not
                  > just out of indolence, but as the work
                  > went on I found that a rather
                  > different book was emerging."

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty

                  -------------DBWillis' message------------


                  From: DBWILLIS@...
                  To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 10:25 AM

                  Subject: Re: Colin Patterson's 1981 Speech...fuller context confirms my poin

                  ?DW here,

                  The book quoted by Rick and Baty was a 2nd edition of a book WRITTEN IN
                  1978.

                  In the speech in 1981 Patterson indicated his view HAD CHANGED IN THE PAST
                  18 MONTHS.

                  Hmmmm.

                  Just about the time the first edition went on sale!

                  So unless there were WHOLESALE revisions in his 1999 edition, we shouldn't
                  take TOO seriously what is in the 1999 book.

                  I rather doubt that he rewrote
                  the whole book.

                  However he DID give very telling comments which Baty posted.

                  >>CP >>> Neo-Darwinism concerns the
                  > explanation of descent with
                  > modification, and it emphasizes
                  > Darwin's own main contribution,
                  > natural selection.

                  > I am NO LONGER certain that natural
                  > selection is the complete
                  > explanation, and I hope the new
                  > edition contains enough information,
                  > and not too much bias, for the
                  > readers to understand the problem
                  > and judge the answer for themselves."

                  He apparently WAS certain of that in 1978 and then he CHANGED. And it
                  appears that what he changed TO in 1981 was still "holding" in 1999.

                  I may have to get the book myself to find what OTHER tasty tidbits he put in
                  the new edition.

                  DBWillis

                  --------------------------------
                  --------------------------------



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Robert Baty
                  ... Sincerely, Robert Baty ... From: DBWILLIS@aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 2:39 PM To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Colin Patterson s 1981
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 5, 2009
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                    DBWillis, continuing in his efforts at misdirection regarding Colin Patterson (his message follows my name below), asks:

                    > BTW, does anyone KNOW what sort
                    > of "evolution" process he DID believe
                    > in?

                    > He rejected Neo-Darwinism and felt
                    > natural selection wasn't the answer
                    > ....so what WAS?

                    As if the previous comments by Patterson were not enough, I will offer yet these further comments from Patterson for DBWillis' consideration:

                    > "It is essential to keep in mind the
                    > distinction between the general
                    > theory--evolution has occurred
                    > and species are related by descent--
                    > and theories of mechanism --
                    > natural selection, neutrlism, etc.

                    > Today's theory, accepting that
                    > evolution has occurred and
                    > explaining it by neo-Darwinism
                    > plus neutralism, is the best that
                    > we have.

                    > It is a fruitful theory, a stimulus
                    > to thought and research, and
                    > we should accept it until nature
                    > prompts someone to think of
                    > one that is better or more
                    > complete."

                    >> page 120

                    Sincerely,
                    Robert Baty

                    --------------DBWillis' message----------

                    From: DBWILLIS@...
                    Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 2:39 PM
                    To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com

                    Subject: Re: Colin Patterson's 1981 Speech...fuller context confirms my point

                    DW here,

                    >>Pi:
                    Whatever his opinion on evolution, he was CERTAIN that your YEC arguments
                    suffer from: "lack of research or scientific evidence.">>

                    So? Behe and tons of others opposing naturalistic ev would also oppose
                    YEC. The point in quoting CP is not to say "he sees all things just like WE
                    do." It is that he...as one well-informed AND as one who had much to lose in
                    saying so...had to admit to the serious PROBLEM presented by the noncorrelation
                    of molecular data. He said that an evolutionary view is NOT helpful in
                    systematics and that much of the supposed results (building "trees") was due to
                    GIGO.

                    You either have to say he was a dufus about the subject or you should give a
                    fair "weight" to his anti-Neo-Darwinism.

                    >>Pi:
                    Since Patterson died in 1998, before the 1999 book was published, I don't
                    think he was too worried about his job.>>

                    Well, he may have figured he would still need one for a few years when he
                    wrote that (in 97 or 98?). Or do you figure he wrote the new stuff AFTER he
                    died?

                    BTW, does anyone KNOW what sort of "evolution" process he DID believe in?
                    He rejected Neo-Darwinism and felt natural selection wasn't the answer....so
                    what WAS?

                    DBWillis

                    -------------------------------------
                    -------------------------------------



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                  • Robert Baty
                    Terry W. Benton, http://www.pinelanechurchofchrist.com , has put on yet again another ape act and try to interview Colin Patterson. See his message
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 5, 2009
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                      Terry W. Benton,

                      http://www.pinelanechurchofchrist.com ,

                      has put on yet again another "ape" act and try to interview Colin Patterson. See his message following my name below.

                      Colin, what was that you had to say to Terry W. Benton about fossils?

                      Colin Patterson:

                      > "In several animal and plant groups
                      > enough fossils are known to bridge
                      > the wide gaps between existing
                      > types...

                      > There are many other examples of
                      > fossil 'missing links', such as
                      > Archaeopteryx, the Jurassic bird
                      > which links birds with dinosaurs,
                      > or Ichthyostega and Acanthostega,
                      > late Devonian amphibians which link
                      > land vertebrates and the extinct
                      > (having internal nostrils) fishes.

                      > But there are still great gaps in the
                      > fossil record...

                      > Perhaps the simplest explanation
                      > is that in many cases we do not
                      > yet know what to look for, or how
                      > to recognize it if we found it."

                      >> pages 108, 109

                      And, Colin, what about Terry's creation story?

                      Colin Patterson:

                      > "The belief that all organisms are
                      > related by descent and have
                      > diverged through a natural,
                      > historical process has only one
                      > main competitor, creation theory,
                      > though there are different stories
                      > of how the Creator went about His
                      > work.

                      > All creation theories are purely
                      > metaphysical.

                      > At one extreme there is the
                      > fundamentalist view that apparent
                      > evidence for evolution, such as
                      > fossils, was built into the newly
                      > created rocks to tempt us or test
                      > our faith.

                      > At the other extreme is the person
                      > to whom evidence of evolution only
                      > pushes the activity of the Creator
                      > further and further into the past.

                      > Both of these modifications of the
                      > original creation myths are typical
                      > evasive moves, avoiding
                      > refutation or confrontation by
                      > modifying the original theory, or
                      > erecting subsidiary theories
                      > around it."

                      >> page 118

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty

                      --------------Terry's message--------------

                      From: Terry W. Benton
                      Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 1:24 PM
                      To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com

                      Subject: Re: Colin Patterson's 1981 Speech...fuller context confirms m...

                      So, what does all this prove about Patterson?

                      All I can get from this is that he was a dufus that didn't know one thing about evolution, knew there was no fossil evidence for evolution, but was certain it happened anyway.

                      So, Patterson:
                      I am certain of evolution of all creatures from a common ancestor.

                      Terry: Can you tell me the ancestors of the bat?

                      Patterson:
                      Well, ugh, ugh....

                      TB: How did the pre-bat-creature develop wings and radar?

                      Patterson:
                      Well, ugh, ugh...

                      TB: Is there an in-between creature that has half-wings and an imprecise radar sensor?

                      Patterson:
                      Well, ugh, ugh....

                      TB: Is there any evidence in the fossil record of the progression of one creature into becoming a bat?

                      Patterson:
                      Well, no, but...

                      TB: But even though you have no evidence of such an evolution, you think it is as positively confirmed as ANY historical science?

                      Patterson:
                      Well, I said that when I was under the gun. But,..

                      TB: So, why are there no transitional fossils in your book?

                      Patterson:
                      Well, if I had known of any I would have included them.

                      TB: So, without any real evidence, you think that evolution is as confirmed as any historical science?

                      Patterson:
                      Well, if you will promise not to tell, it is a trade secret among Paleontologists that there is not one shred of evidence we can use to prove that general evolution is true.

                      TB: Well, what will you be saying when the other guys are questioning your belief in the fact of evolution?

                      Patterson: Well, in that case, I will be telling them what they want to hear. I've got my job to consider, you know.

                      Terry W. Benton
                      http://www.pinelanechurchofchrist.com


                      --- In coCBanned@yahoogroups.com, PIASAN@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Robert left out this one:
                      >
                      > Pi (asking Dr. Patterson his opinion of YEC):
                      > Dr. Patterson, what do you think of Young Earth Creationism as an
                      > alternative explanation to evolution?
                      >
                      > Patterson:
                      > > I am no longer certain that natural
                      > > selection is the COMPLETE <emphasis Pi's> explanation,.....
                      >
                      > >creationists lack scientific
                      > > research or evidence to support
                      > > such theories as a young earth
                      > > (10,000 years old), a world-wide
                      > > flood (Noah's) and separate
                      > > ancestry for humans and apes
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Pi:
                      > And what of all those statements by creationists citing you (and others) as
                      > showing "weaknesses" in evolution?
                      >
                      > Patterson:
                      > their common tactic is to attack
                      > > evolution by hunting out debate
                      > > or dissent among evolutionary
                      > > biologists.
                      >
                      > > When I published the first edition
                      > > I was hardly aware of creationists
                      > > but, during the 1980's, like many
                      > > other biologists I learned that one
                      > > should think carefully about
                      > > candour in argument (in publications,
                      > > lectures or correspondence) in case
                      > > one was furnishing creationist
                      > > campaigners with ammunition in
                      > > the form of "quotable quotes", OFTEN TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT <empahsis Pi's>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Pi:
                      > Dr. Patterson, if the choice were between evolution and YEC, which do you
                      > think is better supported by the evidence?
                      >
                      > Patterson:
                      > >creationists lack scientific
                      > > research or evidence to support
                      > > such theories as a young earth
                      > > (10,000 years old),
                      >
                      > > "Evolution is a certainty."
                      >
                      > Pi:
                      > I think that settles it. Thank you Dr. Patterson.......
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > In a message dated 4/5/2009 11:39:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
                      > rlbaty@... writes:
                      >
                      > DBWillis claims:
                      >
                      > > Colin Patterson opposes
                      > > Neo-Darwinism.
                      >
                      > Compare that claim with my recent intereview with Colin Patterson:
                      >
                      > Robert Baty:
                      >
                      > > Colin, do you consider evolution
                      > > a certainty?
                      >
                      > Colin Patterson:
                      >
                      > > "Evolution is a certainty."
                      >
                      > Robert Baty:
                      >
                      > > How much of a certainty?
                      >
                      > Colin Patterson:
                      >
                      > > "I think the idea of common or
                      > > shared ancestry and the belief
                      > > that all species are related by
                      > > descent is now confirmed as
                      > > completely as anything can be
                      > > in the historical sciences."
                      >
                      > Robert Baty:
                      >
                      > > Yeah, sure, but how did it happen?
                      >
                      > Colin Patterson:
                      >
                      > > "Neo-Darwinism concerns the
                      > > explanation of descent with
                      > > modification, and it emphasizes
                      > > natural selection."
                      >
                      > Robert Baty:
                      >
                      > > You believe in natural selection?
                      >
                      > Colin Patterson:
                      >
                      > > Who doesn't!
                      >
                      > Robert Baty:
                      >
                      > > Of course! But is natural selection
                      > > THE explanation of "descent with
                      > > modification"?
                      >
                      > Colin Patterson:
                      >
                      > > "I am not certain that natural
                      > > selection is the complete
                      > > explanation."
                      >
                      > Robert Baty:
                      >
                      > > But you are certain about evolution?
                      >
                      > Colin Patterson:
                      >
                      > > "Evolution is a certainty."
                      >
                      > Robert Baty:
                      >
                      > > So, while being informed of the
                      > > certainty of evolution, what is it
                      > > that you are ignorant of?
                      >
                      > Colin Patterson:
                      >
                      > > "The completeness of neo-Darwinism
                      > > as an explanation."
                      >
                      > Robert Baty:
                      >
                      > > Aren't we all!
                      >
                      > > Anything else you wish to add?
                      >
                      > Colin Patterson:
                      >
                      > > "The theory of evolution is the
                      > > foundation of contemporary
                      > > biological science. It unifies
                      > > and directs work in all sorts of
                      > > specialized fields, from medicine
                      > > to geology.
                      >
                      > > The modern theory is often called
                      > > neo-Darwinian: 'Darwinian' because
                      > > it uses Darwin's idea of natural
                      > > selection, and 'neo' (new) because
                      > > it incorporates a theory of heredity
                      > > worked out since Darwin's time.
                      >
                      > > (The outline in my 1999 book) is
                      > > amplified, explained and criticized."
                      >
                      > >> "Evolution", page 1
                      >
                      > Robert Baty:
                      >
                      > > OK, let me just get this straight. Are
                      > > you saying that evolution is the
                      > > certainty and neo-Darwinism as
                      > > an explanation is still being worked
                      > > out?
                      >
                      > Colin Patterson:
                      >
                      > > "Evolution is a certainty. I see common
                      > > descent as being as firmly established
                      > > as just about anything else in history.
                      >
                      > > Neo-Darwinism concerns the
                      > > explanation.
                      >
                      > > I am no longer certain that natural
                      > > selection is the complete explanation,
                      > > and I hope the new edition contains
                      > > enough information, and not too
                      > > much bias, for readers to understand
                      > > the problem and judge the answer
                      > > for themselves."
                      >
                      > Robert Baty:
                      >
                      > > Thank you for your time and candor,
                      > > Colin. We'll try to do just that.

                      ---------------------------------
                      ---------------------------------



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Robert Baty
                      ... From: w_w_c_l To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Patterson must be a dufus [sic!] ... DB Willis quotes from
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 5, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        ------------Forwarded Message------------

                        From: w_w_c_l
                        To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009 8:33 PM

                        Subject: Re: Patterson must be a dufus [sic!]

                        ? --- In coCBanned@yahoogroups.com, DBWILLIS@... wrote:

                        > DW here
                        >
                        > You can take Rick's word or C
                        > Patterson's as to whether or not the
                        > recapitulation theory was still "alive
                        > and well."
                        > http://www.creationism.org/books/sunderland/DarwinsEnigma/DarwinsEnig\ma_05MoreProblems.htm

                        DB Willis quotes from Luther Sunderland's "Darwin's
                        Enigma":

                        >| At the time of the interview, Dr. Patterson must
                        >| not have been aware that recapitulation theory
                        >| had fallen into disrepute for he said that he
                        >| felt comfortable with it and that it was still
                        >| alive: "It's one of the few things that I
                        >| think has survived. The expectation in Darwin's
                        >| time was that all we need do was look at fossils
                        >| and they would give us the answers. But it's
                        >| true to say they haven't. I do like the ideas of
                        >| embryology. That's one of the few things that has
                        >| stood the test of time." When asked if he was aware
                        >| that the human embryo at no time was anthropoid in
                        >| appearance but that the ape embryo appears humanoid
                        >| at one point and so was backwards, he replied, "It's
                        >| only backwards if you insist that man is the highest
                        >| point in the evolutionary tree, which I wouldn't try
                        >| to say." Since the interview, Dr. Patterson has
                        >| become an anti-evolutionist, so perhaps he has changed
                        >| his beliefs about the evidence from embryology. >>

                        You are not asking me to take Patterson's word, you are
                        asking me to take Sunderland's word.

                        Willis, you have got to quit getting your information from
                        such places. Sunderland says here that Patterson had become
                        an anti-evolutionist. A few paragraphs later he claims that
                        Haeckel was convicted of forgery in a German court.

                        These aren't just misrepresentations, they are out-and-out
                        lies. Why should I believe this guy when he says that
                        Patterson must not have realized there was anything wrong
                        with recapitulation theory? What, specifically, is the
                        "it" that has survived? We don't see Sunderland's actual
                        question here so there is no way, from this, of determining
                        exactly what he asked. But from what I've heard the
                        transcripts of the interviews are available from ERIC and
                        they don't quite match up with Sunderland's words in
                        "Darwin's Enigma" -- one anti-creationist urges readers to
                        obtain the transcripts and see for themselves how the actual
                        interviews differ from Sunderland's written accounts of
                        them.

                        Sunderland also claims that chimp embryos go through a
                        humanoid stage, but that human embryos don't go through
                        an anthropoid stage. What kind of nonsense is that?
                        Humans are *the* archetypical anthropoid. But recapitulation
                        theory is wrong, remember? *REMEMBER???* Chimp embryos
                        don't go through any humanoid stage! Sunderland is lying
                        about it -- plain, bald-faced lies -- and you are using
                        these lies to try to sully the name of a dead scientist.

                        Not only that, Sunderland says in another place, referencing
                        "Parents Magazine" rather than primary literature, that the
                        human embryo is unmistakably human all the way through its
                        development. This is a direct contradiction of his own
                        assertion that human embryos don't go through any stage
                        where they appear to be "anthropoid".

                        (By the way, Willis, you haven't answered the question
                        about whether you deny that human embryos have tails...)

                        So Patterson published the first edition of his book,
                        "Evolution" in 1978. The interview he afforded Sunderland
                        was in 1979. He gave his so-called "anti-evolution" talk in
                        1981. In 1985 he presented a paper at the Third International
                        Congress of Systematic and Evolutionary Biology, held at the
                        University of Sussex, titled "Molecules and Morphology in
                        Evolution: Conflict or Compromise?"

                        Do you honestly believe "The Conspiracy" would have allowed
                        Patterson to present at such a prestigious conference if
                        he had indeed become an anti-evolutionist?

                        Sunderland first published "Darwin's Enigma" in 1984, claiming
                        that Patterson had become an anti-evolutionist. This must have
                        been quite some news to Patterson, because he evidently had
                        no idea he had become an anti-evolutionist. Sunderland published
                        a slightly revised version of "Darwin's Enigma" in 1988,
                        including material from Michael Denton's 1985 "Theory in Crisis",
                        but neglected to correct his misrepresentation of Patterson as
                        having become an anti-evolutionist.

                        Here is what Patterson wrote in 1988:

                        | "Chelvam asserts that 'we are drowning' in evidence
                        | against darwinism. He cites nothing beyond the
                        | remarks attributed to me. It seems possible that
                        | he confuses two theories under the name of darwinism,
                        | the general theory of common ancestry or descent with
                        | modification, and Darwin's special theory of mechanism,
                        | natural selection. If he knows of evidence inconsistent
                        | with the general theory of common descent, he should
                        | tell us what it is. I know of none."
                        (Colin Patterson in a letter to the editor, _Nature_ 332:580, 1988).

                        And we have already seen the remarks that Robert provided
                        from the preface of Patterson's 2nd edition of "Evolution",
                        1999.

                        These are hardly the words of an "anti-evolutionist", Willis.

                        > Of course since CP has committed the height of treachery...
                        > to admit that the Emperor has no clothes...I suppose
                        > it now is necessary for ev's like Rick to assassinate him.

                        Why would I want to do that?

                        I'm not the one calling Patterson a "dufus" [sic!].

                        I'm not the one who claims he was either lying in 1981
                        or later.

                        I'm not the one who claims he was trying to engage in
                        "damage control" afterward.

                        Colin Patterson never once "admitted the Emperor has no
                        clothes", if you are trying to use that to say that he
                        was in doubt that evolution is a fact and that there is
                        overwhelming evidence for it. And if that isn't what
                        you mean, then how can you say he has committed the
                        height of treachery?

                        > What would a dufus like CP know anyway about what is or
                        > isn't "alive and well" in current ev theory?

                        Apparently a lot more than you do. You have tried to
                        conflate comparative embryology with Haeckel's discredited
                        ideas, you have tried to confuse scientific objections to
                        "neo-Darwinism" as being an abandonment of modern evolutionary
                        theory, you have *repeatedly* -- "whether through design or
                        stupidity I do not know" -- tried to pretend that any
                        dispute among scientists as to *how* evolution occurs is
                        evidence that evolution does not occur.

                        Sorry, but that isn't the way it works.

                        If *you* knew what is "alive and well" in current evolutionary
                        theory, you would not be ableto , in honesty, make these
                        errors.


                        > I think after reading the mumbo jumbo from Rick, it
                        > is hard to say WHAT Rick means. Sounds to me that he
                        > thinks embryology DOES support ev...but he just wants
                        > to distance himself from the Haeckel fiasco. Typical ev...
                        > plausible deniability.

                        Haeckel's work wasn't exactly a fiasco, despite creationist
                        portrayals of him. The "Biogenetic Law" is not a law at all,
                        there are too many exceptions to it; but as Gould points out
                        in "Ontogeny and Phylogeny" it can never be wholly discredited
                        because there is too much evidence for it. While Haeckel's
                        work may have sent embryologists in the wrong direction for a
                        while and may have given the non-scientific public some
                        lingering erroneous conceptions, there is absolutely no
                        substance in trying to pretend that Haeckel's drawings,
                        "fraud" or not, are evidence against the fact of biological
                        evolution.

                        Yes, embryology does support evolution, and studies of
                        embryological development coupled with genetics have given
                        us a lot of information about when (not so much in years
                        but step-wise) divergences took place, as well as how
                        genes interact during the embryo's development.

                        > BTW, Terry....Waytago in finding the evidence that textbooks
                        > are still pushing the embryo crap...by WHATEVER name they are
                        > calling it these days.

                        Yes, textbooks are still pushing the "embryo crap". If you
                        don't like it, that's tough. Equating the "embryo crap"
                        with Haeckel's ideas, and then pretending that the "embryo
                        crap" in the textbooks was discredited long ago but
                        evolutionists are knowingly pushing false information in
                        order to brainwash kids, is intellectually dishonest.

                        And here's something else that is dishonest -- not so much
                        intellectually but just plain dishonest -- that we have
                        seen again and again, and especially most recently in
                        regard to Colin Patterson:

                        1. The evolutionist says something.
                        2. The creationist misrepresents what was said.
                        3. The evolutionist points out the misrepresentation
                        and tries to clarify the point being made.
                        4. The creationist then accuses the evolutionist of
                        engaging in "damage control", of lying, of cover-up.

                        That is despicable behavior. Using that technique I
                        could make any sort of false claim about you and then
                        when you denied it I could just say, "Well, naturally
                        DB Willis would deny that. Certainly he wouldn't want
                        the truth about that to get out."

                        In another post I will try to demonstrate what Patterson
                        meant by his "anti-evolutionary" or "non-evolutionary"
                        comments and why he suggested that the way the systematists
                        of the time were approaching their work could be likened to
                        creationism.

                        Rick Hartzog
                        Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism

                        --------------------------------------
                        --------------------------------------



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Robert Baty
                        ... From: w_w_c_l To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009 8:48 PM Subject: Sunderland agrees with Patterson about the Flood! ... (P. 185,
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 5, 2009
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                          --------------Forwarded Message-----------

                          From: w_w_c_l
                          To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009 8:48 PM

                          Subject: Sunderland agrees with Patterson about the Flood!

                          Patterson:

                          > > [C]reationists lack scientific
                          > > research or evidence to support...
                          > > a world-wide flood (Noah's)...

                          | Luther Sunderland, New York's leading creationist, wants
                          | his colleagues to be careful when discussing the subject
                          | of origins in educational and scientific circles. Among
                          | his warnings is this most interesting item ? "Do not talk
                          | about a flood because there is no way a single world flood
                          | can be derived from scientific evidence alone. Talk about
                          | global catastrophes."

                          (P. 185, Scopes II: the Great Debate
                          by Louisiana State Senator Bill Keith)
                          http://ncseweb.org/cej/4/3/advice-from-luther-sunderland-to-his-fellow-creationists

                          (For those who don't know, Bill Keith was the sponsor of
                          the bill to get creation science into Louisiana public
                          schools, which led to the Edwards vs. Aguillard case.)

                          This explains why you so often see creationists trying to
                          pawn off the false dichotomy of Uniformitarianism vs.
                          Catastrophism and pretending that modern geologists are
                          not very well aware that catastrophes can and do show
                          up in the geologic record.

                          Rick

                          ------------------------------------
                          ------------------------------------



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