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Debate on the existence of God

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  • Jerry McDonald
    Brother Kyle Butt will be debating the former denominational Assembly of God preacher Dan Barker on the existence of God.  The advertisment for the debate can
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 14, 2009
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      Brother Kyle Butt will be debating the former denominational Assembly of God preacher Dan Barker on the existence of God.  The advertisment for the debate can be found by following the link to my challenge2 website:  http://www.challenge2.org/buttbarkerdebate.pdf
       
      In Christ Jesus
      Jerry D. McDonald

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Robert Baty
      ... Still no very clear statement from Jerry, his Belle church, or his OABS school as to whether they are, in fact, going to be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 14, 2009
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        Jerry now writes:

        > Brother Kyle Butt will be debating
        > the former denominational Assembly
        > of God preacher Dan Barker on the
        > existence of God.

        > The advertisment for the debate can
        > be found by following the link to my
        > challenge2 website:

        > http://www.challenge2.org/buttbarkerdebate.pdf

        Still no "very clear statement" from Jerry, his Belle church, or his OABS school as to whether they are, in fact, going to be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the effort.

        Simply advertising the event is not the same as "very clearly stating" your endorsement of the man and his organization.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        --------------My Previous Message---------

        To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
        From: Robert Baty
        Subject: [M & B] Re: Barker-Butt debate on atheism!
        Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:34 PM

        As previously noted, DBWillis made like "everyone" would be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press as their champion against the atheist Dan Barker and concluding that I must be an atheist for not getting on board with them.

        Ha!

        To date, not even DBWillis and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

        To date, not even Max Burgin and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

        To date, not even Terry W. Benton and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

        To date, not even Jerry D. McDonald and his little Belle fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

        We'll have to maybe rely on reports from others regarding the public endorsement, or lack thereof, of Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the Darwin Day debate by such notables as David P. Brown and his school and faculty and Tom Bright and his school and faculty.

        I suggested privately to one of the principles in the Oklahoma City School of Biblical Studies (OKCSBS) that they at least advertise the debate on the OneHeart list. It's been a few days and no advertisement there has shown up. Looks like the OKCSBS isn't going to be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the Darwin Day debate either.

        Ha!

        One might properly conclude that, despite the noise otherwise, they all actually are with me in withholding any public endorsement of Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press in that Darwin Day even.

        This could be interesting indeed!

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ------------My Earlier Message------------

        From: Robert Baty
        Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:03 PM
        To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Barker-Butt debate on atheism!

        DBWillis wrote:

        > I wonder if Baty can figure out
        > which side to support in the
        > Barker-Butt debate. He has
        > HIMSELF to blame for people
        > doubting HIS theism too.

        I can imagine that, like with the recent Cornelius debate, the big fuss in the debate may be nothing more than one over definitions.

        To date, I have no good reason for supporting Kyle Butt in the debate.

        For all I know, Kyle is going to be using a modified form of the David P. Brown arguments as shown below and trying to prove his Apologetics Press position that nothing is more than a few thousand years old:

        Major Premise:

        > If some thing really is more
        > than a few thousand years
        > old, then the God Kyle
        > Butt believes in, as
        > represented in the
        > Bible, does not exist.

        Minor Premise:

        > Some thing really
        > is more than a few
        > thousand years old.

        Conclusion:

        > Therefore, the God Kyle
        > Butt believes in, as
        > represented in the Bible,
        > does not exist.

        and

        Major Premise:

        > If some thing really is more
        > than a few thousand years
        > old, then the God Kyle
        > Butt believes in, as
        > represented in the
        > Bible, does not exist.

        Minor Premise:

        > The God Kyle Butt
        > believes in, as represented
        > in the Bible, does exist.

        Conclusion:

        > Therefore, nothing is
        > more than a few
        > thousand years old.

        Nope! I don't think I would support Kyle if that is where he is intending to go with Dan Barker.

        If someone is able to come up with a transcript of the debate, I would be more than willing to consider a discussion of it for purposes of deciding who might have "won"!

        Without regard to their respective positions, I suspect Dan is going to trounce Kyle as far as debating goes.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        ---The Apologetics Press Announcement---

        http://www.apologeticspress.org/image/rr/2009/0901debateinfo.jpg

        Proposition:

        I know that the God of the Bible does not exist!

        Affirm: Dan Barker

        > Co-president, Freedom from
        > Religion Foundation

        > Former charismatic preacher
        > turned atheist

        > Frequent debater (over 60 debates)

        > Author of "Losing Faith" and "Godless"

        Deny: Kyle Butt

        > Apologetics Press

        > Gospel preacher, author, lecturer

        > M.A. (Freed-Hardeman University)

        > Editor of "Discovery"
        > Associate editor "Reason & Revelation"

        > Author of "Out with Doubt"
        > and "Behold! The Word of God"

        > Co-author of "Behold! The Lamb of God"
        > and "Surveying the Evidence"

        University of South Carolina
        Columbia, South Carolina
        Russell House Ballroom

        February 12, 2009
        7:00 p.m.

        ---------------------------------------
        ---------------------------------------



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert Baty
        It will be interesting to see if there is any public announcements, with Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press approval, citing, very clearly , any specific
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 14, 2009
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          It will be interesting to see if there is any public announcements, with Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press approval, citing, "very clearly", any specific church(es) of Christ that endorse Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press in the effort and whether such endorsements become part of the official, public Darwin Day promotion for the event instead of simply having Kyle represent himself and his Apologetics Press organization.

          Well, I'm still looking for Jerry's, OABS', Terry's, Max's and DBWillis' personal endorsement of Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press effort at the event.

          This could really get interesting; the political intrigue and all.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          -----------Previous Messages--------------

          To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
          From: Robert Baty
          Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Debate on the existence of God
          Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:52 PM

          For example, here's one of the promotions citing the Apologetics Press connections to the event:

          > Does God Exist? - A Moderated Debate
          > in honor of Darwin Day ( Public )
          > Date and Time: 2009-02-12 18:30:00

          > Activities:

          > Dan Barker (Co-President of the
          > Freedom From Religion Foundation
          > and author of "Godless: How an
          > Evangelical Preacher Became One
          > of America's Leading Atheists") will
          > take on Kyle Butt (Apologetics Press
          > representative and Editor of Discovery
          > Magazine) in this classic debate.

          > Barker will argue

          >> "I know the God of the Bible
          >> does not exist,

          > and Butt will argue

          >> "I know the God of the Bible exists."

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          -------------Previous Messages----------

          From: Robert Baty
          Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:45 PM
          To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Debate on the existence of God

          Jerry now quips:

          > I didn't advertise it for your benefit.

          > I sent out 15 emails (this one and
          > the one to M&B list were just two
          > of them) advertising the debate.

          > I will probably be sending out more
          > before it is over.

          > You can make whatever deductions
          > you want from that, I really don't
          > care what you think.

          Still no "very clear statement" from Jerry as to whether he, his Belle church, and/or his OABS school is going to be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press organization in the Darwin Day event.

          And what about Jerry's fellows in the CFTF clique?

          Interestingly enough, if you check around, you may note, as I did, that the event is being promoted as having Kyle Butt as "representing Apologetics Press" and as having had Apologetics Press help with the arrangements.

          So, where are those public endorsements of Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press for the event?

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          -----Original Message-----

          From: Robert Baty
          Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:29 PM
          To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Debate on the existence of God

          Jerry now writes:

          > Brother Kyle Butt will be debating
          > the former denominational Assembly
          > of God preacher Dan Barker on the
          > existence of God.

          > The advertisment for the debate can
          > be found by following the link to my
          > challenge2 website:

          > http://www.challenge2.org/buttbarkerdebate.pdf

          Still no "very clear statement" from Jerry, his Belle church, or his OABS school as to whether they are, in fact, going to be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the effort.

          Simply advertising the event is not the same as "very clearly stating" your endorsement of the man and his organization.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          --------------My Previous Message---------

          To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
          From: Robert Baty
          Subject: [M & B] Re: Barker-Butt debate on atheism!
          Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:34 PM

          As previously noted, DBWillis made like "everyone" would be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press as their champion against the atheist Dan Barker and concluding that I must be an atheist for not getting on board with them.

          Ha!

          To date, not even DBWillis and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

          To date, not even Max Burgin and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

          To date, not even Terry W. Benton and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

          To date, not even Jerry D. McDonald and his little Belle fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

          We'll have to maybe rely on reports from others regarding the public endorsement, or lack thereof, of Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the Darwin Day debate by such notables as David P. Brown and his school and faculty and Tom Bright and his school and faculty.

          I suggested privately to one of the principles in the Oklahoma City School of Biblical Studies (OKCSBS) that they at least advertise the debate on the OneHeart list. It's been a few days and no advertisement there has shown up. Looks like the OKCSBS isn't going to be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the Darwin Day debate either.

          Ha!

          One might properly conclude that, despite the noise otherwise, they all actually are with me in withholding any public endorsement of Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press in that Darwin Day even.

          This could be interesting indeed!

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ------------My Earlier Message------------

          From: Robert Baty
          Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:03 PM
          To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Barker-Butt debate on atheism!

          DBWillis wrote:

          > I wonder if Baty can figure out
          > which side to support in the
          > Barker-Butt debate. He has
          > HIMSELF to blame for people
          > doubting HIS theism too.

          I can imagine that, like with the recent Cornelius debate, the big fuss in the debate may be nothing more than one over definitions.

          To date, I have no good reason for supporting Kyle Butt in the debate.

          For all I know, Kyle is going to be using a modified form of the David P. Brown arguments as shown below and trying to prove his Apologetics Press position that nothing is more than a few thousand years old:

          Major Premise:

          > If some thing really is more
          > than a few thousand years
          > old, then the God Kyle
          > Butt believes in, as
          > represented in the
          > Bible, does not exist.

          Minor Premise:

          > Some thing really
          > is more than a few
          > thousand years old.

          Conclusion:

          > Therefore, the God Kyle
          > Butt believes in, as
          > represented in the Bible,
          > does not exist.

          and

          Major Premise:

          > If some thing really is more
          > than a few thousand years
          > old, then the God Kyle
          > Butt believes in, as
          > represented in the
          > Bible, does not exist.

          Minor Premise:

          > The God Kyle Butt
          > believes in, as represented
          > in the Bible, does exist.

          Conclusion:

          > Therefore, nothing is
          > more than a few
          > thousand years old.

          Nope! I don't think I would support Kyle if that is where he is intending to go with Dan Barker.

          If someone is able to come up with a transcript of the debate, I would be more than willing to consider a discussion of it for purposes of deciding who might have "won"!

          Without regard to their respective positions, I suspect Dan is going to trounce Kyle as far as debating goes.

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          ---The Apologetics Press Announcement---

          http://www.apologeticspress.org/image/rr/2009/0901debateinfo.jpg

          Proposition:

          I know that the God of the Bible does not exist!

          Affirm: Dan Barker

          > Co-president, Freedom from
          > Religion Foundation

          > Former charismatic preacher
          > turned atheist

          > Frequent debater (over 60 debates)

          > Author of "Losing Faith" and "Godless"

          Deny: Kyle Butt

          > Apologetics Press

          > Gospel preacher, author, lecturer

          > M.A. (Freed-Hardeman University)

          > Editor of "Discovery"
          > Associate editor "Reason & Revelation"

          > Author of "Out with Doubt"
          > and "Behold! The Word of God"

          > Co-author of "Behold! The Lamb of God"
          > and "Surveying the Evidence"

          University of South Carolina
          Columbia, South Carolina
          Russell House Ballroom

          February 12, 2009
          7:00 p.m.

          ---------------------------------------
          ---------------------------------------



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Robert Baty
          I see where Jerry has posted his advertisement of the Darwin Day debate on the OneHeart list at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OneheartinChrist/message/1702
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 14, 2009
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            I see where Jerry has posted his advertisement of the Darwin Day debate on the OneHeart list at:

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OneheartinChrist/message/1702

            No, his posting there did not include any personal endorsement of Kyle and his Apologetic Press effort in the debate, or any such endorsement from his Belle church or OABS school.

            We will have to watch the above OneHeart site to see if anyone shows up to publicly endorse Kyle and his Apologetic Press effort in the matter.

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Robert Baty
            Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:07 PM
            To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [M & B] Re: Debate on the existence of God

            It will be interesting to see if there is any public announcements, with Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press approval, citing, "very clearly", any specific church(es) of Christ that endorse Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press in the effort and whether such endorsements become part of the official, public Darwin Day promotion for the event instead of simply having Kyle represent himself and his Apologetics Press organization.

            Well, I'm still looking for Jerry's, OABS', Terry's, Max's and DBWillis' personal endorsement of Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press effort at the event.

            This could really get interesting; the political intrigue and all.

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty

            -----------Previous Messages--------------

            To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
            From: Robert Baty
            Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Debate on the existence of God
            Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:52 PM

            For example, here's one of the promotions citing the Apologetics Press connections to the event:

            > Does God Exist? - A Moderated Debate
            > in honor of Darwin Day ( Public )
            > Date and Time: 2009-02-12 18:30:00

            > Activities:

            > Dan Barker (Co-President of the
            > Freedom From Religion Foundation
            > and author of "Godless: How an
            > Evangelical Preacher Became One
            > of America's Leading Atheists") will
            > take on Kyle Butt (Apologetics Press
            > representative and Editor of Discovery
            > Magazine) in this classic debate.

            > Barker will argue

            >> "I know the God of the Bible
            >> does not exist,

            > and Butt will argue

            >> "I know the God of the Bible exists."

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty

            -------------Previous Messages----------

            From: Robert Baty
            Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:45 PM
            To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Debate on the existence of God

            Jerry now quips:

            > I didn't advertise it for your benefit.

            > I sent out 15 emails (this one and
            > the one to M&B list were just two
            > of them) advertising the debate.

            > I will probably be sending out more
            > before it is over.

            > You can make whatever deductions
            > you want from that, I really don't
            > care what you think.

            Still no "very clear statement" from Jerry as to whether he, his Belle church, and/or his OABS school is going to be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press organization in the Darwin Day event.

            And what about Jerry's fellows in the CFTF clique?

            Interestingly enough, if you check around, you may note, as I did, that the event is being promoted as having Kyle Butt as "representing Apologetics Press" and as having had Apologetics Press help with the arrangements.

            So, where are those public endorsements of Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press for the event?

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty

            -----Original Message-----

            From: Robert Baty
            Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:29 PM
            To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Debate on the existence of God

            Jerry now writes:

            > Brother Kyle Butt will be debating
            > the former denominational Assembly
            > of God preacher Dan Barker on the
            > existence of God.

            > The advertisment for the debate can
            > be found by following the link to my
            > challenge2 website:

            > http://www.challenge2.org/buttbarkerdebate.pdf

            Still no "very clear statement" from Jerry, his Belle church, or his OABS school as to whether they are, in fact, going to be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the effort.

            Simply advertising the event is not the same as "very clearly stating" your endorsement of the man and his organization.

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty

            --------------My Previous Message---------

            To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
            From: Robert Baty
            Subject: [M & B] Re: Barker-Butt debate on atheism!
            Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:34 PM

            As previously noted, DBWillis made like "everyone" would be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press as their champion against the atheist Dan Barker and concluding that I must be an atheist for not getting on board with them.

            Ha!

            To date, not even DBWillis and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

            To date, not even Max Burgin and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

            To date, not even Terry W. Benton and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

            To date, not even Jerry D. McDonald and his little Belle fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

            We'll have to maybe rely on reports from others regarding the public endorsement, or lack thereof, of Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the Darwin Day debate by such notables as David P. Brown and his school and faculty and Tom Bright and his school and faculty.

            I suggested privately to one of the principles in the Oklahoma City School of Biblical Studies (OKCSBS) that they at least advertise the debate on the OneHeart list. It's been a few days and no advertisement there has shown up. Looks like the OKCSBS isn't going to be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the Darwin Day debate either.

            Ha!

            One might properly conclude that, despite the noise otherwise, they all actually are with me in withholding any public endorsement of Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press in that Darwin Day even.

            This could be interesting indeed!

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty

            ------------My Earlier Message------------

            From: Robert Baty
            Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:03 PM
            To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Barker-Butt debate on atheism!

            DBWillis wrote:

            > I wonder if Baty can figure out
            > which side to support in the
            > Barker-Butt debate. He has
            > HIMSELF to blame for people
            > doubting HIS theism too.

            I can imagine that, like with the recent Cornelius debate, the big fuss in the debate may be nothing more than one over definitions.

            To date, I have no good reason for supporting Kyle Butt in the debate.

            For all I know, Kyle is going to be using a modified form of the David P. Brown arguments as shown below and trying to prove his Apologetics Press position that nothing is more than a few thousand years old:

            Major Premise:

            > If some thing really is more
            > than a few thousand years
            > old, then the God Kyle
            > Butt believes in, as
            > represented in the
            > Bible, does not exist.

            Minor Premise:

            > Some thing really
            > is more than a few
            > thousand years old.

            Conclusion:

            > Therefore, the God Kyle
            > Butt believes in, as
            > represented in the Bible,
            > does not exist.

            and

            Major Premise:

            > If some thing really is more
            > than a few thousand years
            > old, then the God Kyle
            > Butt believes in, as
            > represented in the
            > Bible, does not exist.

            Minor Premise:

            > The God Kyle Butt
            > believes in, as represented
            > in the Bible, does exist.

            Conclusion:

            > Therefore, nothing is
            > more than a few
            > thousand years old.

            Nope! I don't think I would support Kyle if that is where he is intending to go with Dan Barker.

            If someone is able to come up with a transcript of the debate, I would be more than willing to consider a discussion of it for purposes of deciding who might have "won"!

            Without regard to their respective positions, I suspect Dan is going to trounce Kyle as far as debating goes.

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty

            ---The Apologetics Press Announcement---

            http://www.apologeticspress.org/image/rr/2009/0901debateinfo.jpg

            Proposition:

            I know that the God of the Bible does not exist!

            Affirm: Dan Barker

            > Co-president, Freedom from
            > Religion Foundation

            > Former charismatic preacher
            > turned atheist

            > Frequent debater (over 60 debates)

            > Author of "Losing Faith" and "Godless"

            Deny: Kyle Butt

            > Apologetics Press

            > Gospel preacher, author, lecturer

            > M.A. (Freed-Hardeman University)

            > Editor of "Discovery"
            > Associate editor "Reason & Revelation"

            > Author of "Out with Doubt"
            > and "Behold! The Word of God"

            > Co-author of "Behold! The Lamb of God"
            > and "Surveying the Evidence"

            University of South Carolina
            Columbia, South Carolina
            Russell House Ballroom

            February 12, 2009
            7:00 p.m.

            ---------------------------------------
            ---------------------------------------



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Robert Baty
            ... Sincerely, Robert Baty ... From: Robert Baty Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:43 PM To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 5 , Jan 14, 2009
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            • 0 Attachment
              OK Terry, Max, DBWillis, Belle church, OABS, CFTF, et al, Jerry is calling for you to register your endorsements:

              > Will they give their public
              > endorsement to Kyle Butt as
              > representative for Apologetics
              > Press right here for the very
              > public record?

              > To date, they have not, to my
              > knowledge specifically and very
              > clearly stated their endorsement
              > of Kyle Butt as representing
              > Apologetics Press.

              > I don't think they are going to
              > endorse Dan Barker, so Butt
              > and his Apologetics Press would
              > be their logical choice.

              > What is it going to be?

              > Huh?

              > Tell us!

              > Come on, don't be shy, tell us
              > that you endorse Kyle Butt as
              > representative of Apologetics
              > Press!

              > Jerry D. McDonald
              > (As adapted by Robert Baty)

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Robert Baty
              Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:43 PM
              To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Debate on the existence of God

              I see where Jerry has posted his advertisement of the Darwin Day debate on the OneHeart list at:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OneheartinChrist/message/1702

              No, his posting there did not include any personal endorsement of Kyle and his Apologetic Press effort in the debate, or any such endorsement from his Belle church or OABS school.

              We will have to watch the above OneHeart site to see if anyone shows up to publicly endorse Kyle and his Apologetic Press effort in the matter.

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Robert Baty
              Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:07 PM
              To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [M & B] Re: Debate on the existence of God

              It will be interesting to see if there is any public announcements, with Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press approval, citing, "very clearly", any specific church(es) of Christ that endorse Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press in the effort and whether such endorsements become part of the official, public Darwin Day promotion for the event instead of simply having Kyle represent himself and his Apologetics Press organization.

              Well, I'm still looking for Jerry's, OABS', Terry's, Max's and DBWillis' personal endorsement of Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press effort at the event.

              This could really get interesting; the political intrigue and all.

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty

              -----------Previous Messages--------------

              To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
              From: Robert Baty
              Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Debate on the existence of God
              Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:52 PM

              For example, here's one of the promotions citing the Apologetics Press connections to the event:

              > Does God Exist? - A Moderated Debate
              > in honor of Darwin Day ( Public )
              > Date and Time: 2009-02-12 18:30:00

              > Activities:

              > Dan Barker (Co-President of the
              > Freedom From Religion Foundation
              > and author of "Godless: How an
              > Evangelical Preacher Became One
              > of America's Leading Atheists") will
              > take on Kyle Butt (Apologetics Press
              > representative and Editor of Discovery
              > Magazine) in this classic debate.

              > Barker will argue

              >> "I know the God of the Bible
              >> does not exist,

              > and Butt will argue

              >> "I know the God of the Bible exists."

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty

              -------------Previous Messages----------

              From: Robert Baty
              Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:45 PM
              To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Debate on the existence of God

              Jerry now quips:

              > I didn't advertise it for your benefit.

              > I sent out 15 emails (this one and
              > the one to M&B list were just two
              > of them) advertising the debate.

              > I will probably be sending out more
              > before it is over.

              > You can make whatever deductions
              > you want from that, I really don't
              > care what you think.

              Still no "very clear statement" from Jerry as to whether he, his Belle church, and/or his OABS school is going to be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press organization in the Darwin Day event.

              And what about Jerry's fellows in the CFTF clique?

              Interestingly enough, if you check around, you may note, as I did, that the event is being promoted as having Kyle Butt as "representing Apologetics Press" and as having had Apologetics Press help with the arrangements.

              So, where are those public endorsements of Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press for the event?

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty

              -----Original Message-----

              From: Robert Baty
              Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:29 PM
              To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Debate on the existence of God

              Jerry now writes:

              > Brother Kyle Butt will be debating
              > the former denominational Assembly
              > of God preacher Dan Barker on the
              > existence of God.

              > The advertisment for the debate can
              > be found by following the link to my
              > challenge2 website:

              > http://www.challenge2.org/buttbarkerdebate.pdf

              Still no "very clear statement" from Jerry, his Belle church, or his OABS school as to whether they are, in fact, going to be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the effort.

              Simply advertising the event is not the same as "very clearly stating" your endorsement of the man and his organization.

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty

              --------------My Previous Message---------

              To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
              From: Robert Baty
              Subject: [M & B] Re: Barker-Butt debate on atheism!
              Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:34 PM

              As previously noted, DBWillis made like "everyone" would be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press as their champion against the atheist Dan Barker and concluding that I must be an atheist for not getting on board with them.

              Ha!

              To date, not even DBWillis and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

              To date, not even Max Burgin and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

              To date, not even Terry W. Benton and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

              To date, not even Jerry D. McDonald and his little Belle fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

              We'll have to maybe rely on reports from others regarding the public endorsement, or lack thereof, of Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the Darwin Day debate by such notables as David P. Brown and his school and faculty and Tom Bright and his school and faculty.

              I suggested privately to one of the principles in the Oklahoma City School of Biblical Studies (OKCSBS) that they at least advertise the debate on the OneHeart list. It's been a few days and no advertisement there has shown up. Looks like the OKCSBS isn't going to be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the Darwin Day debate either.

              Ha!

              One might properly conclude that, despite the noise otherwise, they all actually are with me in withholding any public endorsement of Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press in that Darwin Day even.

              This could be interesting indeed!

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty

              ------------My Earlier Message------------

              From: Robert Baty
              Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:03 PM
              To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Barker-Butt debate on atheism!

              DBWillis wrote:

              > I wonder if Baty can figure out
              > which side to support in the
              > Barker-Butt debate. He has
              > HIMSELF to blame for people
              > doubting HIS theism too.

              I can imagine that, like with the recent Cornelius debate, the big fuss in the debate may be nothing more than one over definitions.

              To date, I have no good reason for supporting Kyle Butt in the debate.

              For all I know, Kyle is going to be using a modified form of the David P. Brown arguments as shown below and trying to prove his Apologetics Press position that nothing is more than a few thousand years old:

              Major Premise:

              > If some thing really is more
              > than a few thousand years
              > old, then the God Kyle
              > Butt believes in, as
              > represented in the
              > Bible, does not exist.

              Minor Premise:

              > Some thing really
              > is more than a few
              > thousand years old.

              Conclusion:

              > Therefore, the God Kyle
              > Butt believes in, as
              > represented in the Bible,
              > does not exist.

              and

              Major Premise:

              > If some thing really is more
              > than a few thousand years
              > old, then the God Kyle
              > Butt believes in, as
              > represented in the
              > Bible, does not exist.

              Minor Premise:

              > The God Kyle Butt
              > believes in, as represented
              > in the Bible, does exist.

              Conclusion:

              > Therefore, nothing is
              > more than a few
              > thousand years old.

              Nope! I don't think I would support Kyle if that is where he is intending to go with Dan Barker.

              If someone is able to come up with a transcript of the debate, I would be more than willing to consider a discussion of it for purposes of deciding who might have "won"!

              Without regard to their respective positions, I suspect Dan is going to trounce Kyle as far as debating goes.

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty

              ---The Apologetics Press Announcement---

              http://www.apologeticspress.org/image/rr/2009/0901debateinfo.jpg

              Proposition:

              I know that the God of the Bible does not exist!

              Affirm: Dan Barker

              > Co-president, Freedom from
              > Religion Foundation

              > Former charismatic preacher
              > turned atheist

              > Frequent debater (over 60 debates)

              > Author of "Losing Faith" and "Godless"

              Deny: Kyle Butt

              > Apologetics Press

              > Gospel preacher, author, lecturer

              > M.A. (Freed-Hardeman University)

              > Editor of "Discovery"
              > Associate editor "Reason & Revelation"

              > Author of "Out with Doubt"
              > and "Behold! The Word of God"

              > Co-author of "Behold! The Lamb of God"
              > and "Surveying the Evidence"

              University of South Carolina
              Columbia, South Carolina
              Russell House Ballroom

              February 12, 2009
              7:00 p.m.

              ---------------------------------------
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