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Re: Barker-Butt debate on atheism!

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  • Robert Baty
    As previously noted, DBWillis made like everyone would be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press as their champion against the atheist Dan
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 14, 2009
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      As previously noted, DBWillis made like "everyone" would be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press as their champion against the atheist Dan Barker and concluding that I must be an atheist for not getting on board with them.

      Ha!

      To date, not even DBWillis and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

      To date, not even Max Burgin and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

      To date, not even Terry W. Benton and his little NI fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

      To date, not even Jerry D. McDonald and his little Belle fellowship has announced here, for the record, their public endorsement of Kyle Butt in the Darwin Day event.

      We'll have to maybe rely on reports from others regarding the public endorsement, or lack thereof, of Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the Darwin Day debate by such notables as David P. Brown and his school and faculty and Tom Bright and his school and faculty.

      I suggested privately to one of the principles in the Oklahoma City School of Biblical Studies (OKCSBS) that they at least advertise the debate on the OneHeart list. It's been a few days and no advertisement there has shown up. Looks like the OKCSBS isn't going to be publicly endorsing Kyle Butt and his Apologetics Press in the Darwin Day debate either.

      Ha!

      One might properly conclude that, despite the noise otherwise, they all actually are with me in withholding any public endorsement of Kyle Butt and Apologetics Press in that Darwin Day even.

      This could be interesting indeed!

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Robert Baty
      Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:03 PM
      To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [coCBanned] Re: Barker-Butt debate on atheism!

      DBWillis wrote:

      > I wonder if Baty can figure out
      > which side to support in the
      > Barker-Butt debate. He has
      > HIMSELF to blame for people
      > doubting HIS theism too.

      I can imagine that, like with the recent Cornelius debate, the big fuss in the debate may be nothing more than one over definitions.

      To date, I have no good reason for supporting Kyle Butt in the debate.

      For all I know, Kyle is going to be using a modified form of the David P. Brown arguments as shown below and trying to prove his Apologetics Press position that nothing is more than a few thousand years old:

      Major Premise:

      > If some thing really is more
      > than a few thousand years
      > old, then the God Kyle
      > Butt believes in, as
      > represented in the
      > Bible, does not exist.

      Minor Premise:

      > Some thing really
      > is more than a few
      > thousand years old.

      Conclusion:

      > Therefore, the God Kyle
      > Butt believes in, as
      > represented in the Bible,
      > does not exist.

      and

      Major Premise:

      > If some thing really is more
      > than a few thousand years
      > old, then the God Kyle
      > Butt believes in, as
      > represented in the
      > Bible, does not exist.

      Minor Premise:

      > The God Kyle Butt
      > believes in, as represented
      > in the Bible, does exist.

      Conclusion:

      > Therefore, nothing is
      > more than a few
      > thousand years old.

      Nope! I don't think I would support Kyle if that is where he is intending to go with Dan Barker.

      If someone is able to come up with a transcript of the debate, I would be more than willing to consider a discussion of it for purposes of deciding who might have "won"!

      Without regard to their respective positions, I suspect Dan is going to trounce Kyle as far as debating goes.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Robert Baty
      Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 10:18 AM
      To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [coCBanned] Barker-Butt debate on atheism!

      http://www.apologeticspress.org/image/rr/2009/0901debateinfo.jpg

      Proposition:

      I know that the God of the Bible does not exist!

      Affirm: Dan Barker

      > Co-president, Freedom from
      > Religion Foundation

      > Former charismatic preacher
      > turned atheist

      > Frequent debater (over 60 debates)

      > Author of "Losing Faith" and "Godless"

      Deny: Kyle Butt

      > Apologetics Press

      > Gospel preacher, author, lecturer

      > M.A. (Freed-Hardeman University)

      > Editor of "Discovery"
      > Associate editor "Reason & Revelation"

      > Author of "Out with Doubt"
      > and "Behold! The Word of God"

      > Co-author of "Behold! The Lamb of God"
      > and "Surveying the Evidence"

      University of South Carolina
      Columbia, South Carolina
      Russell House Ballroom

      February 12, 2009
      7:00 p.m.

      ---------------------------------------
      ---------------------------------------



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    • Robert Baty
      Todd, Here is a link to a debate on the same question as promoted by Jerry s OABS: http://www.oabs.org/Archives/Debates/lawsschoenig.htm It appears to have
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 15, 2009
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        Todd,

        Here is a link to a debate on the same question as promoted by Jerry's OABS:

        http://www.oabs.org/Archives/Debates/lawsschoenig.htm

        It appears to have lasted at least 4 hours.

        I found no indication on the OABS site that the OABS was going to be putting up Kyle Butt, representing Apologetics Press, as their champion in the upcoming Darwin Day debate.

        Maybe Jerry needs to talk to them about that. It seems to me that, for all Jerry has had to say about the debate, the OABS ought to be there recording the event and then publishing it on their website; maybe even live!

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Robert Baty
        Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 8:44 PM
        To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [M & B] Fw: Re: Barker-Butt debate on atheism!

        -------------Forwarded Message------------

        From: Todd S. Greene
        To: coCBanned@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009 8:38 PM

        Subject: Re: Barker-Butt debate on atheism!

        Yeah, when I noticed the timeframe of the whole thing, I was thinking to myself,

        > "Geeze, what's the point?".

        For that kind of timeframe, they should use the television political debate format that's popular these days, where the moderator just has a series of questions and each participant has a few minutes to address it, with then maybe a brief one-minute rejoinder by each participant (to perhaps respond to something by another participant).

        This short timeframe is not really a debate but more of just an introductory presentation of views.

        - Todd Greene

        --- In coCBanned, Robert Baty wrote:

        > What Jerry is promising to travel half
        > way across the country to witness:
        >
        >> The Barker-Butt Darwin Day Debate
        >
        >> Each debater will have one 15-minute
        >> introduction,
        >
        >> one 10-minute rebuttal,
        >
        >> one cross-examination period of
        >> five minutes,
        >
        >> entertain audience questions for
        >> an equal amount of time,
        >
        >> and
        >
        >> deliver one five-minute concluding
        >> speech.
        >
        >> The debate itself will last
        >> approximately one and a half hours.
        >
        > Yep, I'd say that is more than enough
        > time for Kyle Butt to establish that the
        > God of the Bible he believes in exists
        > and that, by implication, nothing
        > is more than a few thousand years old.
        >
        > NOT!
        >
        > Yet, I'm still looking forward to
        > reviewing the transcript of the debate.
        >
        > Sincerely,
        > Robert Baty

        ----------------------------------------
        ----------------------------------------



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      • Robert Baty
        ... Sounds like some pretty faulty reasoning to me, Jerry! Some may recall how it was I came to receive some unseemly criticism for NOT wholeheartedly
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 16, 2009
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          I wrote to the coCBanned list, in part:

          > Maybe Jerry needs to talk to them
          > about that. It seems to me that,
          > for all Jerry has had to say about
          > the debate, the OABS ought to be
          > there recording the event and then
          > publishing it on their website;
          > maybe even live!

          Jerry D. McDonald then writes to the coCBanned list:

          > Let's see maybe I can put this
          > in a syllogism:

          > Major Premise:

          >> Jerry McDonald is enrolled as a
          >> student at OABS.

          > Minor Premise:

          >> Jerry McDonald endorses Kyle Butt
          >> and Apologetics Press in the up and
          >> coming debate with Dan Barker on
          >> the existence of God.

          > Conclusion:

          >> Because Jerry McDonald is enrolled
          >> as a student at OABS and Jerry
          >> McDonald endorses Kyle Butt and
          >> Apologetics Press in the up and
          >> coming debate with Dan Barker on
          >> the existence of God, OABS ought
          >> to advertise the up and coming
          >> debate between Kyle Butt and Dan
          >> Barker and also ought to record
          >> said debate.

          > Do I have that right Robert?

          Sounds like some pretty faulty reasoning to me, Jerry!

          "Some" may recall how it was I came to receive some unseemly criticism for NOT wholeheartedly endorsing Kyle Butt, as representing Apologetics Press, as my champion in the Barker-Butt Darwin Day Debate.

          While Jerry has "come out" to try and make such an endorsement for himself, he appears to be the only one around here to try and do so; put Kyle up as his champion.

          Terry W. Benton hasn't done it!
          Terry's NI Pine Lane church hasn't done it!

          DBWillis hasn't done it!
          DBWillis' NI Indy church hasn't done it!

          Max Burgin hasn't done it!
          Max Burgin's NI Aussie church hasn't done it!

          Jerry's own Belle, MO church hasn't done it!

          Marion R. Fox hasn't done it!
          Marion's Barnes church hasn't done it!

          OABS hasn't done it!
          OKCSBS hasn't done it!
          TBI hasn't done it!
          CFTF hasn't done it!

          While many may be advertising the event, Jerry has not been bringing us the links where any are publicly endorsing Kyle as their champion in the Darwin Day Debate.

          As noted, Jerry is a student of OABS and the OABS and its fellows are quite involved with controversies affecting the churches of Christ; Apologetics Press in particular.

          OABS is also quite involved in recording and preserving audio and video records of events they deem worthwhile and making them available for us who can access their on-line resources of such things.

          So, it would be quite appropriate for Jerry, as a student of OABS, and someone who apparently is quite concerned over who is NOT publicly endorsing Kyle as their champion in the Darwin Day Debate, to document his effort to get the OABS on record as to their position regarding a public endorsement of Kyle as their champion in the Darwin Day Debate and their efforts to present the event live and/or by recorded audio/video.

          I think, as things continue to develop, the issue raised by DBWillis here regarding the endorsement of Kyle, as representative of Apologetics Press, or lack thereof, will be the big issue surrounding the debate as far as certain elements amongst the churches of Christ are concerned.

          Perhaps we owe a debt of gratitude to DBWillis and Jerry D. McDonald for making sure that this angle on the event does not go unnoticed.

          In closing, I would just note that, according to Marion R. Fox, I am well within the rules for NOT putting up Kyle as my champion on such an important question.

          Here's my reference:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OneheartinChrist/message/1481

          > From: Marion Fox
          > To: One Heart
          > Date: Friday, December 19, 2008

          > Subject: Cornelius and the baptism
          > in the Holy Spirit

          > (excerpt)

          > You will all remember that the 2005
          > Lectures at the Soutside church in
          > Lubbock, Texas had two different
          > men speaking on this question.

          > Jerry Brewer was trying to defend
          > the truth, but he did a terrible job
          > in defending the truth.

          > Marion R. Fox

          Yep, I'm just playing by the rules in NOT putting up Kyle and his Apologetics Press as my champions in the Darwin Day Debate.

          As always, I'm more than willing to reconsider should my prophecy fail!

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty



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