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Re: The Baty Games Continue!

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  • Robert Baty
    Just a side note for possible relevance: ... It sounds to me like my commentator is interpreting the verse, contrary to DBWillis, so as to refer to all
    Message 1 of 3 , Sep 6, 2008
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      Just a side note for possible relevance:

      DBWillis wrote, in part:

      >> Pr 11:18 - The wicked earneth
      >> deceitful wages;

      > All those who earn by deceit are
      > wicked. It is "not" true in converse.
      > Not all wicked people earn by
      > deceit.

      By contrast, one commentator I read after, who appeared to be a better commentator than DBWillis, wrote in relevant part:

      > "The godless acquire deceptive gain"

      >> The labour of the godless has
      >> selfishness as its motive, and
      >> what he acquires by his labour
      >> is therefore "delusive gain"--
      >> it is no blessing, it profits him
      >> not, and it brings him no
      >> advantage.

      It sounds to me like my commentator is interpreting the verse, contrary to DBWillis, so as to refer to "all godless/wicked" folk and is telling us the verse is telling us something about those folk and their "gain".

      Regarding Psalm 14:1, my commentator writes, in relevant part:

      > A free spirit of this class (fool/scoffer)
      > is reckoned according to the Scriptures
      > among the empty, hollow, and devoid
      > of mind.

      > It is not merely practical atheism, that
      > is intended by this maxim ("no God")
      > of the (fool).

      > The heart according to the Scripture
      > language is not only the seat of
      > volition, but also of thought.

      > The (fool) is not content with acting
      > as though there were no God, but
      > directly denies that there is a God,
      > i.e., a personal God.

      > The psalmist makes this prominent
      > as the very extreme and depth of
      > human depravity, that there can
      > be among men those who deny
      > the existence of a God.

      My commentator appears to be telling me that Psalm 14:1 is telling us something about "all" the fools referenced thereat, contrary to the claim by DBWillis that it is telling us something about "atheists".

      I do think I'm getting it though!

      DBWillis actually does agree with me in my criticism of the INVALID argument that has been offered to show that atheists are fools:

      > The fool sayeth in his heart
      > there is no God. Psalm 14:1
      > (A says B.)

      > XXX says in his heart there
      > is no God.
      > (C says B.)

      > XXX is a fool.
      > (C is an A.)

      DBWillis does actually agree with me that the above is INVALID. I think that Terry W. Benton also agrees with me, but he hasn't actually admitted, explained and corrected his error related thereto.

      Nope, the way around the problem is for them to propose an interpretation claim such as:

      > "Some fools say in their heart
      > there is no God" means that
      > "all who say in their heart
      > there is no God are fools".
      > Psalm 14:1

      I'm not convinced, but I understand, I think, where DBWillis is trying to go with that.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Robert Baty
      Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 3:34 PM
      To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [M & B] Re: The Baty Games Continue!

      DBWillis writes:

      > I will provide textual evidence of
      > the Hebrew idiom which uses a
      > singular to express a general or
      > sometimes even a universal/absolute
      > truth. I know that not every instance
      > of the use of a singular is for that
      > purpose but it often is.

      At best, what DBWillis has shown is what I have been proposing all along. That is, the reference to "the fool" in Psalm 14:1 has reference to "ALL" the fools the verse addresses. In other words, my position was, is and will be that:

      > All the fools of Psalm 14:1 say
      > in their hearts there is no God.

      DBWillis needs to try his hand with Terry W. Benton who has yet to join me in that position on which DBWillis and I already agree.

      What DBWillis has not done is show that

      > "all fools say in their hearts
      > there is no God (Psalm 14:1)"

      >> logically/idiomatically/Hebraically
      >> converts to

      > "all atheists are fools".

      It is not enough to simply show that in Hebrew you can say "all atheists are fools". That is not what is in dispute!

      What did DBWillis say about that? Here it is:

      > Pr 28:7 - Whoso keepeth the law
      > is a wise son; But he that is a
      > companion of gluttons shameth
      > his father.

      and

      > Pr 15:5 - A fool despiseth his
      > father's correction; But he that
      > regardeth reproof getteth
      > prudence.

      > THIS IS THE SAME IDEA, BUT IN
      > THIS CASE IT IS EXPRESSED IN
      > THE OTHER WAY.

      > IT SAYS THE SAME THING IN
      > HEBREW TO SAY "A FOOL SAYS
      > THERE IS NO GOD" AND "WHO-
      > SOEVER SAYS THERE IS NO GOD
      > IS A FOOL."

      Nope! Prs. 28:7 15:5 are not analogous to the Psalm 14:1 issue in dispute. We simply have another ipse dixit, "just take my word for it", from DBWillis.

      DBWillis SAYS:

      > IT SAYS THE SAME THING IN
      > HEBREW TO SAY "A FOOL SAYS
      > THERE IS NO GOD" AND "WHO-
      > SOEVER SAYS THERE IS NO GOD
      > IS A FOOL."

      Well, DBWillis hasn't come up with the evidence for that, and I am not inclined to believe him. DBWillis' claim proposes the following:

      > A fool sayeth in his heart
      > there is no God.
      > (A says B.)

      > XXX says in his heart there
      > is no God.
      > (C says B.)

      > Therefore, XXX is a fool.
      > (C is an A.)

      DBWillis has already indicated he agrees with me that the above argument is INVALID.

      Will DBWillis now be explicit in joining me in recognizing the above as INVALID?

      DBWillis effectively proposes that

      > "a fool sayeth in his heart there
      > is no God" (Psalm 14:1)

      converts, at least in Hebrew, to

      > "all atheists are fools".

      Where's the proof? DBWillis has tried and failed to provide any proof that Psalm 14:1 is not to be taken literally as referring to all of certain class of "fools" and telling us something about them.

      Will DBWillis keep his word, like Terry W. Benton has been keeping his claim he just "ain't going to repent", and leave the discussion without doing what he said he would do and without, in the alternative, repenting and bringing forth his works meet for repentance.

      We will see! DBWillis has neglected much in these discussions, and he needs to find that place in his heart for repentance and begin to bring forth his works meet for repentance.

      We will see!

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      P.S. Does anybody else here get the impression that DBWillis' postion may be briefly summed up as:

      > I, DBWillis, have my "figurative/
      > idiomatic" interpretation Psalm
      > 14:1 and that trumps any
      > evidence to the contrary.

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