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Re: Necessity of Hermeneutics: (All atheists are fools)

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  • DBWILLIS@aol.com
    David Willis here, Under syllogism , Wiki lists these (below) as the only possible forms of VALID syllogisms. Therefore you must construct your syllogism
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 5, 2008
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      David Willis here,

      Under "syllogism", Wiki lists these (below) as the only possible forms of
      VALID syllogisms. Therefore you must construct your syllogism using a form
      such as one of these in order to test its validity, and Baty doesn't attempt to
      do that at all. (The names they are given are anagrams intended to help
      remember their structure...read the article and it will explain):

      _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism_
      (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism)
      Barbara

      All men are animals.
      All animals are mortal.
      All men are mortal.
      Celarent

      No reptiles have fur.
      All snakes are reptiles.
      No snakes have fur.
      Darii

      All kittens are playful.
      Some pets are kittens.
      Some pets are playful.
      Ferio

      No homework is fun.
      Some reading is homework.
      Some reading is not fun.
      Cesare

      No healthy food is fattening.
      All cakes are fattening.
      No cakes are healthy.
      Camestres

      All horses have hooves.
      No humans have hooves.
      No humans are horses.
      Festino

      No lazy people pass exams.
      Some students pass exams.
      Some students are not lazy.
      Baroco

      All informative things are useful.
      Some websites are not useful.
      Some websites are not informative.
      Darapti

      All fruit is nutritious.
      All fruit is tasty.
      Some tasty things are nutritious.
      Disamis

      Some mugs are beautiful.
      All mugs are useful.
      Some useful things are beautiful.
      Datisi

      All the industrious boys in this school have red hair.
      Some of the industrious boys in this school are boarders.
      Some boarders in this school have red hair.
      Felapton

      No jug in this cupboard is new.
      All jugs in this cupboard are cracked.
      Some of the cracked items in this cupboard are not new.
      Bocardo

      Some cats have no tails.
      All cats are mammals.
      Some mammals have no tails.
      Ferison

      No tree is edible.
      Some trees are green.
      Some green things are not edible.
      Bramantip

      All apples in my garden are wholesome.
      All wholesome fruit is ripe.
      Some ripe fruit are apples in my garden.
      Camenes

      All coloured flowers are scented.
      No scented flowers are grown indoors.
      No flowers grown indoors are coloured.
      Dimaris

      Some small birds live on honey.
      All birds that live on honey are colourful.
      Some colourful birds are small.
      Fesapo

      No humans are perfect.
      All perfect creatures are mythical.
      Some mythical creatures are not human.
      Fresison

      No competent people are people who always make mistakes.
      Some people who always make mistakes are people who work here.
      Some people who work here are not competent people.
      ====

      The passage is an idomatic way to say "All atheists are fools" and if you
      want to try to build a syllogism you need to construct it with that sort of
      wording. So Ps. 14:1 fits the third type:

      Darii

      All kittens are playful.
      Some pets are (or a particular pet is a) kitten(s).
      Some pets are (or a particular pet is) playful.
      In the way Baty constructed HIS syllogism he left out the word "all." I
      suppose he thinks that Ps. 14:1 was written intended to mean not ALL atheists
      are fools but only that a particular one (or "some") are. And if indeed the
      passage were intending to say "Some who say there is no God are fools", then it
      would be wrong to conclude that just because someone says there is no God,
      then he must be a fool. But the passage is not telling us SOME are. It is
      saying (idomatically) that ALL are. Here is how Baty tried to put it (on his
      own list):

      RB:>>Here again for ready reference is the actual argument I did propose as
      an
      example of such INVALIDITY as afflicts the argument of Terry W. Benton that
      has
      been called into question:

      > The atheist says the earth
      > moves around the sun
      > A says B.

      DW: That is, "A particular one (some) who says the earth moves around the
      sun, is an atheist"

      > The Christian says the earth
      > moves around the sun.
      > C says B.

      > Therefore, the Christian is
      > an atheist.
      > C is an A.


      Of course the conclusion is false because it was set up with "some" and not
      "all" in the major premise. To try to build a proper syllogism Baty needs to
      build it using "all", as the text clearly implies. God's word is not just
      telling us that a particular atheist is a fool...or that SOME atheists are
      fools. It is asserting (idiomatically) that ALL are. So if someone is an
      atheist, the Bible asserts plainly, he is a fool.

      DW



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    • DBWILLIS@aol.com
      David Willis here, RB As I recall, neither Terry W. Benton or his fellows would be explicit in joining me in affirming that the fools of Psalm 14:1 had
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 5, 2008
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        David Willis here,

        RB>>As I recall, neither Terry W. Benton or his fellows would be explicit in
        joining
        me in affirming that the "fools" of Psalm 14:1 had reference to "all" the
        fools
        referenced therein. They apparently wanted to keep their options open to
        "equivocate" on which "fools" were under consideration in Psalm 14:1 as they
        did, repeatedly, affirm that NOT ALL fools were atheists.>>

        I will most certainly agree that not all fools are atheists. But the
        passage is saying the converse. It is saying all atheists are fools. That is why
        the proper construction is

        1. All atheists are fools (not all fools are atheists).
        2. Barry is an atheist.
        3. Therefore, Barry is a fool.

        DW





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      • DBWILLIS@aol.com
        David Willis here, (Baty s subject line on his list is: Shame on DBWillis regarding the Psalm 14:1 issue! ) Hey Robert Baty...KNOCK IT OFF with the
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 5, 2008
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          David Willis here,

          (Baty's subject line on his list is: Shame on DBWillis regarding the Psalm
          14:1 issue! )


          Hey Robert Baty...KNOCK IT OFF with the chastising and "shaming" of me,
          calling on me to repent etc. It just makes you look ridiculous. That sort of
          ugly tactic is why no one will conduct discussion with you for very long. I've
          about had enough already. KNOCK IT OFF, or you'll be talking to yourself
          again (as usual) real QUICK.

          I have asserted that Ps. 14:1 uses "the fool says in his heart there is no
          God" as an idiomatic way to say "all who say there is no God are fools."

          Baty says:>>> The passage is an idomatic way
          > to say "All atheists are fools"...

          No proof! No evidence!>>

          No evidence? The next sentence says: They are corrupt, they have done
          abominable works; There is none that doeth good.

          That proves that David is not just speaking of ONE man (a fool) who said
          something. He is making a broad statement about a plurality, indeed a
          UNIVERSALITY...i.e. all those who say there is no God. It is an idiomatic expression.


          It is even clearer in Ps. 53 that all who say there is no God are under
          consideration...not just ONE.


          1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and
          have done abominable iniquity; There is none that doeth good. 2 God looked
          down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did
          understand, That did seek after God. 3 Every one of them is gone back; They are
          together become filthy; There is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have
          the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat (plural) up my people [as]
          they eat bread, And call not upon God? 5 There were they in great fear, where
          no fear was; For God hath scattered the bones of him (singular but it also
          refers to ALL) that encampeth against thee: Thou hast put them to shame, because
          of God hath rejected them.

          Why in the WORLD would you contradict God's word, RB? ANYONE who denies
          God's existence is (with respect to the question of whether God exists) is a
          FOOL. He may understand some OTHER things, but on that topic he has no correct
          understanding at all...and he is a fool.

          DW



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        • w_w_c_l
          ... Is this an idiomatic way of saying that everyone who plots to kill their brother after their father s death is an esau ?
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 5, 2008
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            --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, DBWILLIS@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > I have asserted that Ps. 14:1 uses "the fool says
            > in his heart there is no God" as an idiomatic way
            > to say "all who say there is no God are fools."

            Genesis 27:41b:

            | Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning
            | for my father are at hand; then will I slay
            | my brother Jacob.


            Is this an "idiomatic" way of saying that everyone
            who plots to kill their brother after their father's
            death is an "esau"?
          • DBWILLIS@aol.com
            David Willis here, ... Is this an idiomatic way of saying that everyone who plots to kill their brother after their father s death is an esau ? No. The
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 5, 2008
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              David Willis here,

              >>Genesis 27:41b:

              | Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning
              | for my father are at hand; then will I slay
              | my brother Jacob.


              Is this an "idiomatic" way of saying that everyone
              who plots to kill their brother after their father's
              death is an "esau"?>>

              No.

              The idiom is like how we would say "It is a fool who would say, 'there is no
              God.' " Or "One would have to be a fool to say 'there is no God.' " It is
              not just quoting one particular person. The context (use of plurals) clearly
              indicates it is not just speaking of one person, unlike the passage about
              Esau. It is making a universal characterization.

              So I guess you are agreeing with RB to say that one can be an atheist and
              not nec. be a fool? WHEW! I suppose that is pretty consistent though with
              what else is written on Maury_and_Baty.

              A fool says in his heart, "let me listen to what R. Baty has to say."

              Did I just have reference to ONE fool or ALL? Surely you wouldn't get mad
              at my saying that...since you think I was NOT saying "all who listen to what
              R. Baty has to say are fools." So don't take it PERSONAL. Maybe I just meant
              ONE of you.

              DW




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            • w_w_c_l
              ... Context? I think the context here in Psalm 14 and Psalm 53 is clearly not talking about the 10% or so of ... Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 are speaking of those who
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 6, 2008
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                I had asked:

                >> Genesis 27:41b:
                >>
                >> | Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning
                >> | for my father are at hand; then will I slay
                >> | my brother Jacob.
                >>
                >>
                >> Is this an "idiomatic" way of saying that everyone
                >> who plots to kill their brother after their father's
                >> death is an "esau"?

                DB Willis replies:

                > No.
                >
                > The idiom is like how we would say "It is a fool
                > who would say, 'there is no God.' " Or "One would
                > have to be a fool to say 'there is no God.' " It is
                > not just quoting one particular person. The context
                > (use of plurals) clearly indicates it is not just
                > speaking of one person, unlike the passage about
                > Esau. It is making a universal characterization.

                Context?

                I think the context here in Psalm 14 and Psalm 53
                is clearly not talking about the 10% or so of
                modern humanity who claim to be "atheists":

                | Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity;
                | There is none that doeth good. 2 God looked down from
                | heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were
                | any that did understand, That did seek after God.
                | 3 Every one of them is gone back; They are together
                | become filthy; There is none that doeth good, no, not one.

                Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 are speaking of those who live as
                if there is no coming judgment. Humanity in general
                lives as if there is none -- not just those who say
                that there is no God, but those who claim to believe
                in God but then live as if there is not.

                I think you need to include Psalm 10 in your "context",
                which makes this more evident.

                I also notice that you are painting all atheists as
                having said, "There is no God" and you are furthermore,
                like those who have come before you in this discussion,
                deliberately leaving out the part about "hath said in
                his heart".

                How people live, DB Willis, rather than what they may
                say with their mouths, is a better indication of what
                they "have said in their heart". I think the Scriptures
                will support that notion.


                > So I guess you are agreeing with RB to say that one
                > can be an atheist and not nec. be a fool? WHEW!
                > I suppose that is pretty consistent though with
                > what else is written on Maury_and_Baty.

                I don't think that is what Robert is saying. He is
                saying that the use of Psalm 14:1 to "prove" that
                "all atheists are fools" is both logically false and
                unsound biblical hermeneutics -- even IF all atheists
                are fools that is not what you, as a believer, are
                supposed to be getting out of Psalm 14 or 53 (or 10).

                These Scriptures weren't written as a justification for
                believers to use in deliberately insulting non-believers.


                > A fool says in his heart, "let me listen to what
                > R. Baty has to say."
                >
                > Did I just have reference to ONE fool or ALL? Surely
                > you wouldn't get mad at my saying that...

                So you seem to understand here that people might not
                take kindly to being arbitrarily called a "fool".

                I will point out that this entire discussion was
                dredged up once again because some foolish young-earth
                creationists, unable to rationally defend their
                "scientific evidence for a young Earth" (as usual),
                decided they needed to change the subject because the
                particular "atheist" in this case was making them look
                like "fools".


                > since you think I was NOT saying "all who listen to
                > what R. Baty has to say are fools." So don't take it
                > PERSONAL. Maybe I just meant ONE of you.

                In general, I don't take anything a young-earth
                creationist says personally. They use their false
                teaching about the age of the Earth to eat up the
                Lord's people as if they were eating bread. Corrupt
                are they, there is none that doeth good, there is none
                that hath understanding, no, not one.



                Rick Hartzog
                Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism
              • DBWILLIS@aol.com
                David Willis here, ... Even if you doubt it from :1, it is clear from :2 that the Bible asserts that all you atheists who do not seek after God....ALL OF
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 6, 2008
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                  David Willis here,

                  >>Ps. 14:2 God looked down from
                  | heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were
                  | any that did understand, That did seek after God.
                  | 3 Every one of them is gone back; They are together
                  | become filthy; There is none that doeth good, no, not one.

                  Even if you doubt it from :1, it is clear from :2 that the Bible asserts
                  that all you atheists who do not seek after God....ALL OF YOU...have "gone back"
                  and are "filthy" and do "no good"...NO NOT ONE. Being a fool is on TOP of
                  all that.

                  Perhaps it comforts you to think God does NOT call you a fool if you are an
                  atheist. If you doubt that, you shouldn't doubt it does clearly tell you
                  your destination.

                  >>2 Th. 1:8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that
                  obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: 9 who shall suffer punishment, [even]
                  eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his
                  might, >>

                  So enjoy the belief that God does NOT call you a fool if you want. He DOES
                  clearly tell you you are damned and face eternal destruction. Will that help
                  your feelings when you are in hell...believing that God didn't call you a
                  fool in Ps. 14:1?


                  Rick>>Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 are speaking of those who live as
                  if there is no coming judgment. Humanity in general
                  lives as if there is none -- not just those who say
                  that there is no God, but those who claim to believe
                  in God but then live as if there is not.>>

                  If you want me to agree that there are other fools and you atheists are
                  right there with all the other fools...I will agree to that.

                  >>I also notice that you are painting all atheists as
                  having said, "There is no God" and you are furthermore,
                  like those who have come before you in this discussion,
                  deliberately leaving out the part about "hath said in
                  his heart".
                  >>

                  I haven't read prior discussion. I think it is pretty self-evident that
                  atheists are those who say in their hearts "there is no God." Doesn't take a
                  rocket scientist to draw that connection.

                  >>How people live, DB Willis, rather than what they may
                  say with their mouths, is a better indication of what
                  they "have said in their heart". I think the Scriptures
                  will support that notion.>>

                  They can be made fools by how they live as well as by their saying "there is
                  no God."

                  >>I don't think that is what Robert is saying. He is
                  saying that the use of Psalm 14:1 to "prove" that
                  "all atheists are fools" is both logically false and
                  unsound biblical hermeneutics -- even IF all atheists
                  are fools that is not what you, as a believer, are
                  supposed to be getting out of Psalm 14 or 53 (or 10).>>

                  It isn't logically false. However it IS logically false to try to paint me
                  as suggesting that ONLY those who are atheists are fools. That is not
                  logical at all. Others may be fools too, but according to God's word, ALL atheists
                  are fools. You may disagree that is true, but it is deception to try to say
                  God's word does NOT say it!

                  >>These Scriptures weren't written as a justification for
                  believers to use in deliberately insulting non-believers.>>

                  I am pointing out what the word of God tells atheists so they can see their
                  sad condition and maybe be saved. If that is "insulting" then I am fine to
                  do exactly that. I guess others may be similarly insulted if I told them they
                  are damned if they won't believe and obey Christ....but I will say it anyway.

                  >>I will point out that this entire discussion was
                  dredged up once again because some foolish young-earth
                  creationists, unable to rationally defend their
                  "scientific evidence for a young Earth" (as usual),
                  decided they needed to change the subject because the
                  particular "atheist" in this case was making them look
                  like "fools".>>

                  Nevermind about YE vs. AE. Supposedly lots of AEs are theists and believe
                  that one must be a fool to say there is no God. Stop acting like it is only
                  YE's that think that.

                  DW





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                • DBWILLIS@aol.com
                  David Willis here, I will provide textual evidence of the Hebrew idiom which uses a singular to express a general or sometimes even a universal/absolute
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 6, 2008
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                    David Willis here,

                    I will provide textual evidence of the Hebrew idiom which uses a singular to
                    express a general or sometimes even a universal/absolute truth. I know that
                    not every instance of the use of a singular is for that purpose but it often
                    is. My comments in CAPS.






                    Pr 15:2 - The tongue of the wise uttereth knowledge aright; But the mouth of
                    fools poureth out folly.


                    Pr 15:7 - The lips of the wise disperse knowledge; But the heart of the
                    foolish [doeth] not so.


                    Pr 18:15 - The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; And the ear of the
                    wise seeketh knowledge.


                    ALL THOSE WHO GET KNOWLEDGE ETC....ARE WISE.


                    Ps 1:1 - Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked,
                    Nor standeth in the way of sinners, Nor sitteth in the seat of scoffers:

                    ALL THOSE WHO WALK NOT IN COUNSEL OF THE WICKED....ARE BLESSED.

                    Ps 37:12 - The wicked plotteth against the just, And gnasheth upon him with
                    his teeth.

                    ALL THOSE WHO PLOT AGAINST THE JUST ....ARE WICKED. OTHERS WHO DO OTHER
                    THINGS MAY *ALSO* BE WICKED, BUT THIS IS ONLY ADDRESSING *THESE*.


                    Pr 11:18 - The wicked earneth deceitful wages;

                    ALL THOSE WHO EARN BY DECEIT ARE WICKED. IT IS *NOT* TRUE IN CONVERSE. NOT
                    ALL WICKED PEOPLE EARN BY DECEIT.


                    Ps 37:21 - The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again; But the righteous
                    dealeth graciously, and giveth.

                    ALL THOSE WHO BORROW AND PAY NOT AGAIN ARE WICKED. NOT NEC. TRUE IN
                    CONVERSE.



                    Pr 17:23 - A wicked man receiveth a bribe out of the bosom, To pervert the
                    ways of justice.

                    DITTO



                    Pr 13:1 - A wise son [heareth] his father's instruction; But a scoffer
                    heareth not rebuke.

                    DITTO

                    Pr 14:16 - A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil; But the fool beareth
                    himself insolently, and is confident.

                    SAME CONSTRUCTION AS PS. 14:1. *ALL* THOSE WHO FEAR (GOD) AND DEPART FROM
                    EVIL ARE *WISE*.

                    Pr 28:7 - Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son; But he that is a companion of
                    gluttons shameth his father.

                    THIS IS THE SAME IDEA, BUT IN THIS CASE IT IS EXPRESSED IN THE OTHER WAY.
                    IT SAYS THE SAME THING IN HEBREW TO SAY "A FOOL SAYS THERE IS NO GOD" AND
                    "WHOSOEVER SAYS THERE IS NO GOD IS A FOOL."



                    Pr 10:18 - He that hideth hatred is of lying lips; And he that uttereth a
                    slander is a fool.

                    THOUGH THE SINGULAR IS USED, IT IS REFERING TO *ALL* WHO UTTER SLANDER.

                    Pr 15:5 - A fool despiseth his father's correction; But he that regardeth rep
                    roof getteth prudence.

                    THIS PASSAGE LIKE ALL THE OTHERS, PROVES THE IDIOM.
                    ====

                    I have spent about all the time I intend to spend on Baty's site this time
                    around. A fool says "it makes sense to keep posting to those who have closed
                    minds." Someone on this list, who seems to be a fool but thinks himself very
                    wise, once wrote something about wise use of one's time:

                    Rick>>I'll tell you just like I told David Willis: I have no
                    > intention of arguing back and forth with you in private exchanges.
                    > I am just vain enough to think that my time is a little more
                    > valuable than that.

                    I may not agree with this fella about HIS time, but I do think that about my
                    own. And I would extend the comment to apply to public exchanges which
                    become pointless also. I share the same "vanity" to think my time is worth more
                    than to spend it in worthless pursuits as what is usually the case on the
                    Baty list.

                    DW













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                  • DBWILLIS@aol.com
                    David Willis here, Rick I think the context here in Psalm 14 and Psalm 53 is clearly not talking about the 10% or so of ... Oh NO...why would ANYONE think
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 7, 2008
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                      David Willis here,

                      Rick>>I think the context here in Psalm 14 and Psalm 53
                      is clearly not talking about the 10% or so of
                      modern humanity who claim to be "atheists":
                      >>

                      Oh NO...why would ANYONE think that when we read "says in his heart there is
                      no God" or "(does not) seek after God" or "call not upon Jehovah" or "(not
                      having) Jehovah as his refuge"...that it is referring to atheists? Who would
                      have thought such a thing???

                      >>Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 are speaking of those who live as
                      if there is no coming judgment. Humanity in general
                      lives as if there is none -- not just those who say
                      that there is no God, but those who claim to believe
                      in God but then live as if there is not. >>

                      I have not denied that there are more fools than just atheists. Theists who
                      live as if there is no God are fools too. All fools are not atheists but
                      all atheists are fools. That is clear from this passage...and others.

                      >>I think you need to include Psalm 10 in your "context",
                      which makes this more evident.>>

                      Yes! I agree we should look also at Ps. 10. "4 The wicked, in the pride of
                      his countenance, [saith], He will not require [it]. All his thoughts are,
                      There is no God." The passage tells us that not only are all atheists FOOLS,
                      but also they are WICKED. I appreciate your bringing that to my attention,
                      Rick. I'm sure the atheists feel much better now. Of course there are
                      wicked theists too. "11 He saith in his heart, God hath forgotten; He hideth his
                      face; he will never see it."

                      >>How people live, DB Willis, rather than what they may
                      say with their mouths, is a better indication of what
                      they "have said in their heart". I think the Scriptures
                      will support that notion. >>

                      It is a nice try...to try to pin me with saying that how people live does
                      not matter as long as they say (insincerely) that they believe in God. I do
                      not say that. It shows desperation on your part to try to pin on me something
                      I would never say...and you KNOW it.

                      >>I don't think that is what Robert is saying. He is
                      saying that the use of Psalm 14:1 to "prove" that
                      "all atheists are fools" is both logically false and
                      unsound biblical hermeneutics -- >>

                      I proved by many scriptures that often this sort of wording is used to say
                      "all those who...(insert)....are fools, wicked, evil, wise, blessed, etc."
                      Baty can squawk all day that I haven't given "evidence" for my "ipse dixit" but
                      I did indeed provide the textual evidence. Any fair reader can easily see
                      that, but I doubt there are many fair readers on Baty's list. It is OBVIOUS
                      from the immediate context of Ps. 14:1 that a plurality is being referenced,
                      not just a single man. And it is obvious also from the broader context that
                      this is a Hebrew idiom to say "all those who say there is no God are fools."
                      He says of those who "seek not God" (:2) that they are "ALL gone aside" (:3),
                      and "there is NONE of them that doeth good." Forget :1 if you want. :2-3
                      tells us plainly that all those who seek not God (which of course includes
                      atheists, as well as negligent theists)...they are ALL gone aside and NONE of
                      them do good." So whether you want to agree they are fools or not, atheists
                      are ALL worthless in their present state and they will ALL be damned. If you
                      or Baty are claiming to be christians, you should stop comforting atheists to
                      help them feel they are in less danger than they are. It is in direct
                      defiance to what your Lord (if you claim Jesus is Lord) would want an atheist to
                      feel.

                      >>So you seem to understand here that people might not
                      take kindly to being arbitrarily called a "fool".>>

                      Neither I nor God arbitrarily calls anyone a fool. The atheists earn the
                      title, and then I use it on them as God does.

                      DW









                      **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
                      plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
                      (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • w_w_c_l
                      ... So now it appears that DB Willis is going to try to call *me* an atheist, too! Interesting! DB Willis knows very well that I am not an atheist -- he has
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 7, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, DBWILLIS@... wrote:
                        >
                        > David Willis here,
                        >
                        > >>Ps. 14:2 God looked down from
                        > | heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were
                        > | any that did understand, That did seek after God.
                        > | 3 Every one of them is gone back; They are together
                        > | become filthy; There is none that doeth good, no, not one.
                        >
                        > Even if you doubt it from :1, it is clear from :2 that
                        > the Bible asserts that all you atheists who do not seek
                        > after God....ALL OF YOU...have "gone back" and are "filthy"
                        > and do "no good"...NO NOT ONE. Being a fool is on TOP of
                        > all that.

                        So now it appears that DB Willis is going to try to call
                        *me* an atheist, too! Interesting! DB Willis knows
                        very well that I am not an atheist -- he has known that
                        all along.

                        Yet look at what he now says!

                        In his next message he even quotes Proverbs 10:18
                        about how people who commit slander and hide their hatred
                        with lying lips are fools, and here he is slandering me!

                        What is ironic about this is that DB Willis is
                        cross-posting these messages to the Focus_on_Truth list,
                        where there are at least a few people who know very well
                        that I am not an atheist.

                        Ooops!

                        Looks like DB Willis might be inadvertently showing his
                        true colors...


                        DB Willis says:

                        > Perhaps it comforts you to think God does NOT call you
                        > a fool if you are an atheist. If you doubt that, you
                        > shouldn't doubt it does clearly tell you your destination.
                        >
                        > >>2 Th. 1:8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God,
                        > and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:
                        > 9 who shall suffer punishment, [even] eternal destruction
                        > from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his
                        > might, >>
                        >
                        > So enjoy the belief that God does NOT call you a fool
                        > if you want. He DOES clearly tell you you are damned
                        > and face eternal destruction. Will that help your
                        > feelings when you are in hell...believing that God
                        > didn't call you a fool in Ps. 14:1?

                        My covenant with the Lord is established on better promises
                        than the word of DB Willis.

                        DB, where does God tell me that I am damned and face
                        eternal destruction?

                        It looks to me as if, for the sake of trying to force
                        your point, you are not only bearing false witness against
                        me but against the Lord as well.

                        You are acting as if there is no coming judgment, DB Willis.


                        I had written:

                        >> Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 are speaking of those who live as
                        >> if there is no coming judgment. Humanity in general
                        >> lives as if there is none -- not just those who say
                        >> that there is no God, but those who claim to believe
                        >> in God but then live as if there is not.

                        DB Willis replies:

                        > If you want me to agree that there are other fools and
                        > you atheists are right there with all the other fools...
                        > I will agree to that.

                        Well, that kind of weakens the effect of calling the
                        atheist of fool, doesn't it, if the one who is saying
                        all atheists are fools turns out to be at least as
                        big a fool as the atheist is?

                        Aren't we told that judgment is going to begin at the
                        house of God? Aren't we told that the servant who didn't
                        know any better would be beaten with few stripes, but the
                        one who knew, but did not his master's will, will be
                        beaten with many stripes?


                        I had written:

                        >> I also notice that you are painting all atheists as
                        >> having said, "There is no God" and you are furthermore,
                        >> like those who have come before you in this discussion,
                        >> deliberately leaving out the part about "hath said in
                        >> his heart".

                        DB Willis replies:

                        > I haven't read prior discussion.

                        Maybe you should have. That way you would have known that
                        you cannot truthfully make the claim that "All atheists
                        have said in their heart, there is no God."


                        DB Willis says:

                        > I think it is pretty self-evident that atheists are
                        > those who say in their hearts "there is no God."
                        > Doesn't take a rocket scientist to draw that
                        > connection.

                        While people who say in their hearts that there is
                        no God are certainly atheists, that does not mean
                        that all atheists have said in their heart that there
                        is no God.

                        "All A is B" is NOT equal to "All B is A".


                        I had written:

                        >> How people live, DB Willis, rather than what they may
                        >> say with their mouths, is a better indication of what
                        >> they "have said in their heart". I think the Scriptures
                        >> will support that notion.

                        DB Willis responds:

                        > They can be made fools by how they live as well as by
                        > their saying "there is no God."

                        You left out the part about saying "in his heart",
                        DB Willis. You seem to be missing the point, so I will
                        try to make it a little simpler for you: You don't know
                        what someone may or may not have said "in his heart".

                        The result of what the "fools" of Psalm 14:1 have said
                        in their heart is manifested in the verses following.
                        And from the characteristics given of those fools in the
                        following verses we see people living as if they are never
                        going to be called to account. The "eloyhim" of verse 1
                        may appropriately be seen as referring to the Lord's
                        judgment of mankind, considering all the other Psalms that
                        are similar in construction and intent.

                        So we might get the idea that in falsely accusing me
                        of atheism in a public place, DB Willis is living as if
                        he has no fear of any coming judgment.


                        I said:

                        >> I don't think that is what Robert is saying. He is
                        >> saying that the use of Psalm 14:1 to "prove" that
                        >> "all atheists are fools" is both logically false and
                        >> unsound biblical hermeneutics -- even IF all atheists
                        >> are fools that is not what you, as a believer, are
                        >> supposed to be getting out of Psalm 14 or 53 (or 10).

                        DB Willis replies:

                        > It isn't logically false.

                        Sure it is. For one thing there is the problem of you
                        taking "The F has said [in his heart] X" and "idiomatically"
                        converting it to say that "All who say X are F", [conveniently
                        omitting the "in his heart" part]. An additional problem is
                        that you claim "*All* A has said X".

                        Even IF it is true that "all atheists are fools" you have
                        no support for that from Psalm 14:1. Even with your
                        "idiomatic" conversion the *best* you can hope to come up with
                        from Psalm 14:1 is that "All who have said in their heart,
                        there is no God, are fools." But still, I think the best
                        way to identify the "fools" of Psalm 14 and 53 is to read
                        the rest of the verses.


                        > However it IS logically false to try to paint me
                        > as suggesting that ONLY those who are atheists are
                        > fools. That is not logical at all.

                        But nobody has suggested that. This is quite typical
                        of DB Willis, and very much in keeping with our past
                        experiences with him -- he makes up strawmen, pretending
                        that people have said something they haven't.

                        No one has said that DB Willis is suggesting that
                        "only athesits are fools". Nobody has even hinted at
                        that being what DB Willis is suggesting. But
                        DB Willis, always angry, always on the run from his own
                        rash proclamations, has to think up something to distract
                        attention away from what has *really* been said.

                        Read my last statement again, DB Willis. I say it
                        is not only illogical but is also unsound biblical
                        hermeneutics to try to use Psalm 14:1 to "prove"
                        all atheists are fools.


                        > Others may be fools too, but according to God's word,
                        > ALL atheists are fools. You may disagree that is
                        > true, but it is deception to try to say God's word
                        > does NOT say it!

                        The word "atheist" does not appear anywhere in Scripture.

                        The argument is not whether all atheists are fools,
                        but whether Psalm 14 and 53, rightly interpreted,
                        justify saying all atheists are fools. Especially
                        questionable is the practice of using these verses
                        in an attempt to weasel out of rational discussion.

                        Because even IF all atheists are fools, that does not
                        entitle you to make false claims about, say, carbon dating,
                        in your attempt to convince people that there is any
                        scientific evidence that the Earth is only a few thousand
                        years old and then, when the atheist points out your errors,
                        to respond to that by saying the Bible says that all atheists
                        are fools.

                        You do understand, don't you, DB, why that is not a
                        good argument?


                        I said:

                        >> These Scriptures weren't written as a justification
                        >> for believers to use in deliberately insulting
                        >> non-believers.

                        DB Willis replies:

                        > I am pointing out what the word of God tells atheists
                        > so they can see their sad condition and maybe be saved.
                        > If that is "insulting" then I am fine to do exactly that.

                        How do you call somebody a fool "in meekness and in fear"?

                        I have YET to see ANYONE use Psalm 14:1 to call the atheist
                        a fool for any other reason than to make an ad hominem
                        remark in lieu of an intelligent response, which to
                        observers has the unintended result of making the *theist*
                        look like the foolish one.


                        > I guess others may be similarly insulted if I told them
                        > they are damned if they won't believe and obey Christ....
                        > but I will say it anyway.

                        Nah, that ain't it. You just like to be rude and insulting:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/8108

                        And of course, a large part of what you call "believing
                        and obeying" Jesus really means believe and obey whatever
                        DB Willis says.

                        You have in the past strongly insinuated that both Robert
                        and I are atheistic, just because you weren't able to
                        defend your young-earth fantasy-science, and I remarked at
                        the time how convenient that would be for you if everybody
                        who didn't believe in your 6,000 year old Earth would just
                        roll over and let you have your way.

                        And now, like others of your stripe, you have just decided
                        to go ahead and call me an atheist anyway.

                        Oh well. If people take a stand against false teachers, the
                        false teachers will try to condemn and discredit them, but
                        if people don't take a stand against false teachers the
                        false teachers just get worse and worse and worse.


                        I had written:

                        >> I will point out that this entire discussion was
                        >> dredged up once again because some foolish young-earth
                        >> creationists, unable to rationally defend their
                        >> "scientific evidence for a young Earth" (as usual),
                        >> decided they needed to change the subject because the
                        >> particular "atheist" in this case was making them look
                        >> like "fools".


                        DB Willis replies:

                        > Nevermind about YE vs. AE.

                        You wish!

                        As I recall, DB Willis has a good bit of repenting
                        to be doing in regard to some of his false claims that
                        he would like us to "nevermind" about!

                        For those who don't know, a couple of years ago DB Willis
                        got it in his head that the Earth is at the center of the
                        Universe and decided that would be good "evidence" for the
                        existence of God. The only trouble is, of course, that there
                        is absolutely no evidence that the Earth is at the center
                        of the Universe. When I pointed this out DB Willis accused
                        me of adopting "atheist philosophy" and arguing against the
                        existence of God.

                        In other words, DB Willis is one of those guys who thinks
                        he ought to be able to make up just whatever he wants, and
                        if you don't agree with his false claims, then you don't
                        believe the word of God (or you are an atheist).


                        > Supposedly lots of AEs are theists and believe
                        > that one must be a fool to say there is no God.
                        > Stop acting like it is only YE's that think that.

                        This is more of DB Willis's pretense at not being able to
                        understand what somebody has clearly written. Nobody
                        is acting like only young-earth creationists claim that
                        Psalm 14:1 says "All atheists are fools" -- what I said
                        is that INSTEAD OF BEING ABLE TO DEFEND THEIR
                        CREATIONIST LIES, THE YECs TRIED TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

                        You know, either way this doesn't look good for DB Willis.

                        Either he is unable to understand simple English sentences,
                        which does not lend him any credibility in regard to proper
                        Biblical hermeneutics; or he is deliberately misrepresenting
                        what I just said.

                        Which is it, DB Willis?



                        Rick Hartzog
                        Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism



                        -----------------------------------------



                        --- Original Message ---

                        "w_w_c_l" wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > I had asked:
                        >
                        > >> Genesis 27:41b:
                        > >>
                        > >> | Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning
                        > >> | for my father are at hand; then will I slay
                        > >> | my brother Jacob.
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> Is this an "idiomatic" way of saying that everyone
                        > >> who plots to kill their brother after their father's
                        > >> death is an "esau"?
                        >
                        > DB Willis replies:
                        >
                        > > No.
                        > >
                        > > The idiom is like how we would say "It is a fool
                        > > who would say, 'there is no God.' " Or "One would
                        > > have to be a fool to say 'there is no God.' " It is
                        > > not just quoting one particular person. The context
                        > > (use of plurals) clearly indicates it is not just
                        > > speaking of one person, unlike the passage about
                        > > Esau. It is making a universal characterization.
                        >
                        > Context?
                        >
                        > I think the context here in Psalm 14 and Psalm 53
                        > is clearly not talking about the 10% or so of
                        > modern humanity who claim to be "atheists":
                        >
                        > | Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity;
                        > | There is none that doeth good. 2 God looked down from
                        > | heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were
                        > | any that did understand, That did seek after God.
                        > | 3 Every one of them is gone back; They are together
                        > | become filthy; There is none that doeth good, no, not one.
                        >
                        > Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 are speaking of those who live as
                        > if there is no coming judgment. Humanity in general
                        > lives as if there is none -- not just those who say
                        > that there is no God, but those who claim to believe
                        > in God but then live as if there is not.
                        >
                        > I think you need to include Psalm 10 in your "context",
                        > which makes this more evident.
                        >
                        > I also notice that you are painting all atheists as
                        > having said, "There is no God" and you are furthermore,
                        > like those who have come before you in this discussion,
                        > deliberately leaving out the part about "hath said in
                        > his heart".
                        >
                        > How people live, DB Willis, rather than what they may
                        > say with their mouths, is a better indication of what
                        > they "have said in their heart". I think the Scriptures
                        > will support that notion.
                        >
                        >
                        > > So I guess you are agreeing with RB to say that one
                        > > can be an atheist and not nec. be a fool? WHEW!
                        > > I suppose that is pretty consistent though with
                        > > what else is written on Maury_and_Baty.
                        >
                        > I don't think that is what Robert is saying. He is
                        > saying that the use of Psalm 14:1 to "prove" that
                        > "all atheists are fools" is both logically false and
                        > unsound biblical hermeneutics -- even IF all atheists
                        > are fools that is not what you, as a believer, are
                        > supposed to be getting out of Psalm 14 or 53 (or 10).
                        >
                        > These Scriptures weren't written as a justification for
                        > believers to use in deliberately insulting non-believers.
                        >
                        >
                        > > A fool says in his heart, "let me listen to what
                        > > R. Baty has to say."
                        > >
                        > > Did I just have reference to ONE fool or ALL? Surely
                        > > you wouldn't get mad at my saying that...
                        >
                        > So you seem to understand here that people might not
                        > take kindly to being arbitrarily called a "fool".
                        >
                        > I will point out that this entire discussion was
                        > dredged up once again because some foolish young-earth
                        > creationists, unable to rationally defend their
                        > "scientific evidence for a young Earth" (as usual),
                        > decided they needed to change the subject because the
                        > particular "atheist" in this case was making them look
                        > like "fools".
                        >
                        >
                        > > since you think I was NOT saying "all who listen to
                        > > what R. Baty has to say are fools." So don't take it
                        > > PERSONAL. Maybe I just meant ONE of you.
                        >
                        > In general, I don't take anything a young-earth
                        > creationist says personally. They use their false
                        > teaching about the age of the Earth to eat up the
                        > Lord's people as if they were eating bread. Corrupt
                        > are they, there is none that doeth good, there is none
                        > that hath understanding, no, not one.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Rick Hartzog
                        > Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism


                        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, DBWILLIS@... wrote:
                        >
                        > David Willis here,
                        >
                        > >>Ps. 14:2 God looked down from
                        > | heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were
                        > | any that did understand, That did seek after God.
                        > | 3 Every one of them is gone back; They are together
                        > | become filthy; There is none that doeth good, no, not one.
                        >
                        > Even if you doubt it from :1, it is clear from :2 that the Bible
                        asserts
                        > that all you atheists who do not seek after God....ALL OF
                        YOU...have "gone back"
                        > and are "filthy" and do "no good"...NO NOT ONE. Being a fool is on
                        TOP of
                        > all that.
                        >
                        > Perhaps it comforts you to think God does NOT call you a fool if
                        you are an
                        > atheist. If you doubt that, you shouldn't doubt it does clearly
                        tell you
                        > your destination.
                        >
                        > >>2 Th. 1:8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to
                        them that
                        > obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: 9 who shall suffer
                        punishment, [even]
                        > eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory
                        of his
                        > might, >>
                        >
                        > So enjoy the belief that God does NOT call you a fool if you want.
                        He DOES
                        > clearly tell you you are damned and face eternal destruction.
                        Will that help
                        > your feelings when you are in hell...believing that God didn't
                        call you a
                        > fool in Ps. 14:1?
                        >
                        >
                        > Rick>>Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 are speaking of those who live as
                        > if there is no coming judgment. Humanity in general
                        > lives as if there is none -- not just those who say
                        > that there is no God, but those who claim to believe
                        > in God but then live as if there is not.>>
                        >
                        > If you want me to agree that there are other fools and you
                        atheists are
                        > right there with all the other fools...I will agree to that.
                        >
                        > >>I also notice that you are painting all atheists as
                        > having said, "There is no God" and you are furthermore,
                        > like those who have come before you in this discussion,
                        > deliberately leaving out the part about "hath said in
                        > his heart".
                        > >>
                        >
                        > I haven't read prior discussion. I think it is pretty self-
                        evident that
                        > atheists are those who say in their hearts "there is no God."
                        Doesn't take a
                        > rocket scientist to draw that connection.
                        >
                        > >>How people live, DB Willis, rather than what they may
                        > say with their mouths, is a better indication of what
                        > they "have said in their heart". I think the Scriptures
                        > will support that notion.>>
                        >
                        > They can be made fools by how they live as well as by their
                        saying "there is
                        > no God."
                        >
                        > >>I don't think that is what Robert is saying. He is
                        > saying that the use of Psalm 14:1 to "prove" that
                        > "all atheists are fools" is both logically false and
                        > unsound biblical hermeneutics -- even IF all atheists
                        > are fools that is not what you, as a believer, are
                        > supposed to be getting out of Psalm 14 or 53 (or 10).>>
                        >
                        > It isn't logically false. However it IS logically false to try to
                        paint me
                        > as suggesting that ONLY those who are atheists are fools. That is
                        not
                        > logical at all. Others may be fools too, but according to God's
                        word, ALL atheists
                        > are fools. You may disagree that is true, but it is deception to
                        try to say
                        > God's word does NOT say it!
                        >
                        > >>These Scriptures weren't written as a justification for
                        > believers to use in deliberately insulting non-believers.>>
                        >
                        > I am pointing out what the word of God tells atheists so they can
                        see their
                        > sad condition and maybe be saved. If that is "insulting" then I
                        am fine to
                        > do exactly that. I guess others may be similarly insulted if I
                        told them they
                        > are damned if they won't believe and obey Christ....but I will say
                        it anyway.
                        >
                        > >>I will point out that this entire discussion was
                        > dredged up once again because some foolish young-earth
                        > creationists, unable to rationally defend their
                        > "scientific evidence for a young Earth" (as usual),
                        > decided they needed to change the subject because the
                        > particular "atheist" in this case was making them look
                        > like "fools".>>
                        >
                        > Nevermind about YE vs. AE. Supposedly lots of AEs are theists and
                        believe
                        > that one must be a fool to say there is no God. Stop acting like
                        it is only
                        > YE's that think that.
                        >
                        > DW
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new
                        fashion blog,
                        > plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
                        > (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • DBWILLIS@aol.com
                        David Willis here, Rick, you flatter yourself to think that I have studied your posts enough to know (or remember) whether you are an atheist or not. You can
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 7, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          David Willis here,

                          Rick, you flatter yourself to think that I have studied your posts enough to
                          know (or remember) whether you are an atheist or not. You can believe that
                          or not, I really don't care. I frankly don't pay as much attention to you as
                          you fellas seem to pay to me so as to allow me to keep that straight. And I
                          would bet I'm not the first one to be confused on that matter either! I
                          think I do pretty well to remember that Baty is not one, actually considering
                          how often he and others here sound like one. You probably won't believe it,
                          but I did not intentionally misrepresent your view. I was speaking more
                          broadly than the singular "you" and figured that if you weren't an atheist yourself
                          others who read this list probably were. Maybe it should concern you a
                          little that a person who has read some of your material would honestly not be
                          able to know or keep straight in his mind if you were or weren't an atheist. I
                          know that would concern ME. I also know that "Todd Green" (if that is his
                          real name) used to operate under a cowardly false ID on Berean Spirit as a
                          theist when he was NOT one (Heiden was the last name...forgot the first) and
                          many, including myself GENEROUSLY credited him erroneously with having faith
                          when he did NOT. So maybe that puts me even on that score. I sort of figured
                          that someone IDing himself as a member of "the church of Latitudinarianism"
                          (whatever THAT is...sounds totally bogus to me) was also likely pretending to
                          be religious when he really isn't...sort of like how Barry Lynn (famous
                          atheist) pretends to be a Rev. and head of some fake church just to mock those
                          with real religious conviction. If that really is a church, you all maybe
                          should think of coming up with another name that isn't so hokey-sounding so others
                          won't figure it is meant as a joke. I honestly did not know that you were
                          not an atheist or mocking those with faith. You may think I SHOULD have known
                          but frankly I don't recall enough of your position on anything except AE
                          and did not take time to review anything you wrote to try to figure that out.
                          The fact that you sometimes refer to scripture would not nec. mean you
                          weren't doing the same as what Satan did in Mt. 4. Oh, that's right. I'm dissing
                          Satan some by lumping him in with atheists...he hasn't gotten quite THAT
                          depraved enough yet to say there is no God. He and his demons believe what
                          others including I think at least ONE on this list are too foolish to believe.
                          But I guess Satan MAY be rightly lumped with some others who try to defend
                          atheists like those on the Baty list so often do. I was not intending to only
                          be addressing you...or even nec. addressing you at all directly when I said
                          (as I recall) "you atheists". I do know that you sure seem defensive for those
                          who ARE atheists being called fools. Maybe I just figured that the hit dog
                          was the one was doing so much howling. I apologize that my comments
                          slandered you by lumping you in with atheists if you really are not one. However, I
                          am not sure if you are a notch or two above them or below them. Really.
                          (And of COURSE I mean in your present state as I see it. We all are mere
                          sinners needing forgiveness by faith and obedience to Christ and are not worth
                          anything of our own merit). If I should have limited my "insults" (insults which
                          come directly from God's word) to Todd as being the only one who is a fool
                          here because of his atheism while others are in a bad state for other reasons
                          including defending atheists and contradicting scripture, then you have my
                          apology for that error.

                          Also, I am pretty sure that your idea of what is a theist and mine may
                          differ. For you to invent some wacky distinction between an atheist and someone
                          who "says in his heart there is no God"...as IF the atheist is not as bad...is
                          good enough reason for me to think your threshold for thinking someone is
                          really an atheist is too high. (Or maybe it would be "too low.") I frankly
                          don't even want to try to understand the silly distinction you have invented in
                          your head on that one.

                          I am not going to rehash the YE/AE discussion. If you enjoy exchanges with
                          YE's from time to time and want more of that, then try to be less nasty next
                          time you get the chance when a YE visits your site. I have said about all I
                          want to say on Baty's list this time around. I do respect Baty for allowing
                          my posts...which shows character that other list owners sometimes don't show.
                          However, in other ways, I don't care much for the tactics you guys permit
                          yourselves here. Baty acts like he is not just a participant in a discussion
                          but a self-appointed judge and jury as well on who does or doesn't need to
                          repent or be "shamed". And bottom line is that I figure I would risk
                          disobeying Christ's command about casting pearls if I take much more time with you
                          guys here. All atheists are indeed fools. But they are not the only fools.

                          DW




                          **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
                          plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
                          (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Robert Baty
                          ... I think that other list has demonstrated a level of hypocrisy that has been often noticed on such lists. That is, they let DBWillis post such as he did,
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 7, 2008
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                            DBWillis wrote to the Focus_on_Truth list as well as here, in part:

                            > I do respect Baty for allowing
                            > my posts...which shows character
                            > that other list owners sometimes
                            > don't show.

                            I think that other list has demonstrated a level of hypocrisy that has been often noticed on such lists. That is, they let DBWillis post such as he did, as well as other such posts by various members on a variety of subjects, but recently refused my milder posts on three separate occasions; denying me the ability to respond to that list as my adversaries have continued to mention and misrepresent me.

                            DBWillis concluded with:

                            > All atheists are indeed fools.
                            > But they are not the only fools.

                            Looks like a little equivocation there from DBWillis as far as it relates to the controversy over Psalm 14:1.

                            At least DBWillis didn't try to cite Psalm 14:1 and his "ipse dixit idiom" as proof of that.

                            Perhaps DBWillis is now going the way of Veto Roley and giving up his claim to be able to prove that the Psalm 14:1 statement that

                            >> "the fool sayeth in his heart
                            >> there is no God"

                            > means, is properly interpreted
                            > to mean that

                            >> "all atheist are fools".

                            The sum and substance of DBWillis' proof is simply that

                            > "DBWillis says so"!

                            I got that much!

                            It's good to know that that is the "proof" offered. Come to think of it, that is the same "proof" that Veto Roley offered.

                            Sincerely,
                            Robert Baty



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Robert Baty
                            (Note: My earlier post in response to DBWillis deceitful gain problem, which he evaded, is attached for additional reference.-RLBaty) ... HMM? Why didn t
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 7, 2008
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                              (Note: My earlier post in response to DBWillis' "deceitful gain" problem, which he evaded, is attached for additional reference.-RLBaty)

                              DBWillis more recently wrote to Rick, in relevant part:

                              > Yes!

                              > I agree we should look also
                              > at Ps. 10.

                              >> "4 The wicked, in the pride of
                              >> his countenance, [saith], He will
                              >> not require [it]. All his thoughts
                              >> are, There is no God."

                              > The passage tells us that...all
                              > atheists are WICKED.

                              That's according to DBWillis' ipse dixit idiom rule! DBWillis then added:

                              > Of course there are wicked theists
                              > too.

                              >> "11 He saith in his heart, God
                              >> hath forgotten; He hideth his
                              >> face; he will never see it."

                              HMM? Why didn't DBWillis use his ipse dixit idiom on that and conclude that verse 11 tells us that

                              > "all theists are wicked"?????

                              Here's a little more context for Psalm 10 (KJV):

                              > (2) The wicked...

                              > (3) For the wicked...

                              > (4) The wicked, through the pride
                              > of his countenance, will not seek
                              > after God; God is not in all his
                              > thoughts.

                              > (5) His ways...

                              > (6) He hath...

                              > (7) His mouth...

                              > (8) He sitteth...

                              > (9) He lieth...

                              > (10) He croucheth...

                              > (11) He hath said in his heart, God
                              > hath forgotten: he hideth his face;
                              > he will never see it.

                              > (13) Wherefore doth the wicked
                              > contemn God? he hath said in
                              > is heart, Thou wilt not require it.

                              > (15) Break thou the arm of the
                              > wicked and the evil man...

                              I'm just wondering how it is that DBWillis figured that verse 4 was referencing "all atheists" while verse 11 was referencing "some theists"?

                              DBWillis evaded dealing with the apparent problem he had with interpreting the "deceitful gain" passage. Maybe he will deal with this issue now that I've posted it to his preferred subject thread??

                              DBWillis interprets Psalm 10:4 to reference "all atheists".

                              DBWillis inteprets Psalm 10:11 to reference
                              "some theists".

                              How is that justified by DBWillis?

                              My commentator, referenced earlier, disagrees with DBWillis and writes as if he believes the one referenced in verse 11 is the same sort referenced in verse 4.

                              Sincerely,
                              Robert Baty

                              ---------My "deceitful gain" Post---------

                              From: Robert Baty
                              To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Saturday, September 6, 2008 7:15 PM

                              Subject: [M & B] Re: The Baty Games Continue!

                              Just a side note for possible relevance:

                              DBWillis wrote, in part:

                              >> Pr 11:18 - The wicked earneth
                              >> deceitful wages;

                              > All those who earn by deceit are
                              > wicked. It is "not" true in converse.
                              > Not all wicked people earn by
                              > deceit.

                              By contrast, one commentator I read after, who appeared to be a better commentator than DBWillis, wrote in relevant part:

                              > "The godless acquire deceptive gain"

                              >> The labour of the godless has
                              >> selfishness as its motive, and
                              >> what he acquires by his labour
                              >> is therefore "delusive gain"--
                              >> it is no blessing, it profits him
                              >> not, and it brings him no
                              >> advantage.

                              It sounds to me like my commentator is interpreting the verse, contrary to DBWillis, so as to refer to "all godless/wicked" folk and is telling us the verse is telling us something about those folk and their "gain".

                              Regarding Psalm 14:1, my commentator writes, in relevant part:

                              > A free spirit of this class (fool/scoffer)
                              > is reckoned according to the Scriptures
                              > among the empty, hollow, and devoid
                              > of mind.

                              > It is not merely practical atheism, that
                              > is intended by this maxim ("no God")
                              > of the (fool).

                              > The heart according to the Scripture
                              > language is not only the seat of
                              > volition, but also of thought.

                              > The (fool) is not content with acting
                              > as though there were no God, but
                              > directly denies that there is a God,
                              > i.e., a personal God.

                              > The psalmist makes this prominent
                              > as the very extreme and depth of
                              > human depravity, that there can
                              > be among men those who deny
                              > the existence of a God.

                              My commentator appears to be telling me that Psalm 14:1 is telling us something about "all" the fools referenced thereat, contrary to the claim by DBWillis that it is telling us something about "atheists".

                              I do think I'm getting it though!

                              DBWillis actually does agree with me in my criticism of the INVALID argument that has been offered to show that atheists are fools:

                              > The fool sayeth in his heart
                              > there is no God. Psalm 14:1
                              > (A says B.)

                              > XXX says in his heart there
                              > is no God.
                              > (C says B.)

                              > XXX is a fool.
                              > (C is an A.)

                              DBWillis does actually agree with me that the above is INVALID. I think that Terry W. Benton also agrees with me, but he hasn't actually admitted, explained and corrected his error related thereto.

                              Nope, the way around the problem is for them to propose an interpretation claim such as:

                              > "Some fools say in their heart
                              > there is no God" means that
                              > "all who say in their heart
                              > there is no God are fools".
                              > Psalm 14:1

                              I'm not convinced, but I understand, I think, where DBWillis is trying to go with that.

                              Sincerely,
                              Robert Baty

                              -----Earlier Message-----

                              From: Robert Baty
                              Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 3:34 PM
                              To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [M & B] Re: The Baty Games Continue!

                              DBWillis writes:

                              > I will provide textual evidence of
                              > the Hebrew idiom which uses a
                              > singular to express a general or
                              > sometimes even a universal/absolute
                              > truth. I know that not every instance
                              > of the use of a singular is for that
                              > purpose but it often is.

                              At best, what DBWillis has shown is what I have been proposing all along. That is, the reference to "the fool" in Psalm 14:1 has reference to "ALL" the fools the verse addresses. In other words, my position was, is and will be that:

                              > All the fools of Psalm 14:1 say
                              > in their hearts there is no God.

                              DBWillis needs to try his hand with Terry W. Benton who has yet to join me in that position on which DBWillis and I already agree.

                              What DBWillis has not done is show that

                              > "all fools say in their hearts
                              > there is no God (Psalm 14:1)"

                              >> logically/idiomatically/Hebraically
                              >> converts to

                              > "all atheists are fools".

                              It is not enough to simply show that in Hebrew you can say "all atheists are fools". That is not what is in dispute!

                              What did DBWillis say about that? Here it is:

                              > Pr 28:7 - Whoso keepeth the law
                              > is a wise son; But he that is a
                              > companion of gluttons shameth
                              > his father.

                              and

                              > Pr 15:5 - A fool despiseth his
                              > father's correction; But he that
                              > regardeth reproof getteth
                              > prudence.

                              > THIS IS THE SAME IDEA, BUT IN
                              > THIS CASE IT IS EXPRESSED IN
                              > THE OTHER WAY.

                              > IT SAYS THE SAME THING IN
                              > HEBREW TO SAY "A FOOL SAYS
                              > THERE IS NO GOD" AND "WHO-
                              > SOEVER SAYS THERE IS NO GOD
                              > IS A FOOL."

                              Nope! Prs. 28:7 15:5 are not analogous to the Psalm 14:1 issue in dispute. We simply have another ipse dixit, "just take my word for it", from DBWillis.

                              DBWillis SAYS:

                              > IT SAYS THE SAME THING IN
                              > HEBREW TO SAY "A FOOL SAYS
                              > THERE IS NO GOD" AND "WHO-
                              > SOEVER SAYS THERE IS NO GOD
                              > IS A FOOL."

                              Well, DBWillis hasn't come up with the evidence for that, and I am not inclined to believe him. DBWillis' claim proposes the following:

                              > A fool sayeth in his heart
                              > there is no God.
                              > (A says B.)

                              > XXX says in his heart there
                              > is no God.
                              > (C says B.)

                              > Therefore, XXX is a fool.
                              > (C is an A.)

                              DBWillis has already indicated he agrees with me that the above argument is INVALID.

                              Will DBWillis now be explicit in joining me in recognizing the above as INVALID?

                              DBWillis effectively proposes that

                              > "a fool sayeth in his heart there
                              > is no God" (Psalm 14:1)

                              converts, at least in Hebrew, to

                              > "all atheists are fools".

                              Where's the proof? DBWillis has tried and failed to provide any proof that Psalm 14:1 is not to be taken literally as referring to all of certain class of "fools" and telling us something about them.

                              Will DBWillis keep his word, like Terry W. Benton has been keeping his claim he just "ain't going to repent", and leave the discussion without doing what he said he would do and without, in the alternative, repenting and bringing forth his works meet for repentance.

                              We will see! DBWillis has neglected much in these discussions, and he needs to find that place in his heart for repentance and begin to bring forth his works meet for repentance.

                              We will see!

                              Sincerely,
                              Robert Baty

                              P.S. Does anybody else here get the impression that DBWillis' postion may be briefly summed up as:

                              > I, DBWillis, have my "figurative/
                              > idiomatic" interpretation Psalm
                              > 14:1 and that trumps any
                              > evidence to the contrary.

                              -----------------------------------
                              -----------------------------------



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • DBWILLIS@aol.com
                              David Willis here, Baty DBWillis interprets Psalm 10:4 to reference all atheists . DBWillis inteprets Psalm 10:11 to reference some theists . How is that
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 7, 2008
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                                David Willis here,

                                Baty>>DBWillis interprets Psalm 10:4 to reference "all atheists".

                                DBWillis inteprets Psalm 10:11 to reference
                                "some theists".

                                How is that justified by DBWillis?

                                My commentator, referenced earlier, disagrees with DBWillis and writes as if
                                he
                                believes the one referenced in verse 11 is the same sort referenced in verse
                                4.>>


                                It is pretty certain that the person in :4 is indeed an atheist since it
                                seems to be the same person who says "there is no God" who also says (as if God
                                exists) "He will not require it." Later in :11 it could also be an
                                atheist...one who is speaking of a being who does not really (in his mind) exist but
                                he speaks AS IF he does. This is what Elijah did regarding Baal. However, it
                                could also be that the text is about a man who believes God exists but
                                thinks or acts as if God won't ever require accountability. There is no problem
                                to me of limiting the "wicked" to only certain theists because the text shows
                                that limitation...it is those who would say or do the things listed here.
                                Not all theists do those things! It is however, impossible to reasonably
                                imagine any atheist who is NOT saying in his heart "there is no God." That is by
                                definition what atheists do! I have not read whatever argument you think
                                shows a distinction between one who is an atheist and one who says in his heart
                                there is no God, but I don't think I care to waste time on that, if that
                                really is your position. If you are convinced it is a theist who is lying to
                                himself...trying to convince himself there is no God...and you want to also
                                think of him as a fool too, then that's just fine with me. However all atheists
                                do say that too. And regardless of whether you think the Bible plainly
                                teaches that atheists are fools, they are lost, and that should be reason enough
                                for them to seek another path...AND for you who think you are following the
                                Bible to stop encouraging them as you do here. BTW, I would never use Ps. 14:1
                                to try to prove YE vs. AE...and I doubt that others do either.

                                DW




                                **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
                                plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
                                (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Robert Baty
                                HMMM! I wonder why it is that DBWillis latest message here was not, as his habit has been, also posted to the Focus_on_Truth list. Is DBWillis now being
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                  HMMM! I wonder why it is that DBWillis' latest message here was not, as his habit has been, also posted to the Focus_on_Truth list.

                                  Is DBWillis now being moderated?

                                  Did the Focus_on_Truth folks not want to see me putting DBWillis in retreat in absentia?

                                  Did DBWillis just not want the Focus_on_Truth folks to see that I've got DBWillis in retreat?

                                  DBWillis again, despite my reminder, evades his responsibility to deal with his apparent "deceitful gain" problem. In his latest post, he has simply danced around his Psalm 10 problem.

                                  It looks like we are just going to have to take DBWillis' implications that he has abandoned, like Veto, his ipse dixit idiom claim that the Psalm 14:1 statement

                                  >> "the fool sayeth in his heart
                                  >> there is no God"

                                  > means/is properly interpreted
                                  > to mean that

                                  >> "all atheists are fools".

                                  DBWillis didn't come close to explaining how he could invoke his ipse dixit idiom claim to "all atheists" in Psalm 10:4 and then not invoke it on "all theists" in Psalm 10:11 where he interpreted that verse to have reference to "theists" as opposed to "atheists".

                                  What I see him doing is admitting that he's not so sure he's even understanding who Psalm 10:4 and Psalm 10:11 is referring to.

                                  However, if you grant him that Psalm 10:4 and Psalm 10:11 are referencing an "atheist", then DBWillis will invoke his ipse dixit idiom to interpret both verses as meaning "all atheists" are wicked.

                                  However, If you grant him that Psalm 10:4 and/or Psalm 10:11 is referencing a "theist", then DBWillis will NOT invoke his ipse dixit idiom.

                                  As previously noted, it appears that DBWillis has simply come up with a Veto Roley "thingy" that can't be substantiated and you are just going to have to take DBWillis' word for it as to when it is to be applied and when it isn't; when it works and when it doesn't.

                                  It appears that what DBWIllis does is simply formulate his "interpretation of the text" and then, as needed, invokes his ipse dixit idiom defense in support thereof.

                                  That's good to know.

                                  DBWillis' wrote:

                                  > (R)egardless of whether you think
                                  > the Bible plainly teaches that
                                  > atheists are fools...

                                  Besides not doing his homework regarding the related discussions, DBWillis has not been paying close enough attention even to the present discussions on this list.

                                  My issue throughout the discussion has to do with Psalm 14:1 and my position is that it is NOT the case that

                                  >> "the fool sayeth in his heart
                                  >> there is no God" (Psalm 14:1)

                                  > means/is properly interpreted
                                  > to mean that

                                  >> "all atheists are fools".

                                  DBWillis has effectively abandoned his ipse dixit idiom defense, and, again, in his latest message does not even try to invoke Psalm 14:1 to demonstrate that "the Bible" teaches that all atheists are "some kind of fool".

                                  Without the equivocations that have so often plagued the various discussions on the subject, I'm still looking for DBWIllis and/or another to explicitly accept the proposition that they are wanting, in effect, is to interpret/translate Psalm 14:1 to read

                                  > "some fools say in their hearts
                                  > there is no God."

                                  While certain of my adversaries have been implying as much, they haven't come out and been explicit in accepting the above inference from their equivocations or otherwise dealing with my simple proposition that

                                  > "all fools (referenced in Psalm 14:1)
                                  > say in their hearts there is no God."

                                  Given my adversaries' adherence to their position, I would like to have their details as to at least one "fool" referenced in Psalm 14:1 that does NOT say in his heart there is no God.

                                  Or is it the case that my adversaries, "in their hearts", do actually agree with the that it is "all" the fools referenced in Psalm 14:1 that say in their hearts "there is no God"?

                                  Sincerely,
                                  Robert Baty

                                  ----------DBWillis' Message------------

                                  From: DBWillis@...
                                  To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Monday, September 8, 2008 12:06 AM

                                  Subject: [M & B] Re: Necessity of Hermeneutics: (All atheists are fools)

                                  David Willis here,

                                  Baty

                                  > DBWillis interprets Psalm 10:4 to
                                  > reference "all atheists".

                                  > DBWillis inteprets Psalm 10:11 to
                                  > reference "some theists".

                                  > How is that justified by DBWillis?

                                  > My commentator, referenced earlier,
                                  > disagrees with DBWillis and writes as
                                  > if he believes the one referenced in
                                  > verse 11 is the same sort referenced
                                  > in verse 4.

                                  It is pretty certain that the person in :4 is indeed an atheist since it seems to be the same person who says "there is no God" who also says (as if God exists)

                                  > "He will not require it."

                                  Later in :11 it could also be an atheist...one who is speaking of a being who does not really (in his mind) exist but he speaks AS IF he does.

                                  This is what Elijah did regarding Baal.

                                  However, it could also be that the text is about a man who believes God exists but
                                  thinks or acts as if God won't ever require accountability.

                                  There is no problem to me of limiting the "wicked" to only certain theists because the text shows that limitation...it is those who would say or do the things listed here.

                                  Not all theists do those things!

                                  It is however, impossible to reasonably
                                  imagine any atheist who is NOT saying in his heart "there is no God."

                                  That is by definition what atheists do!

                                  I have not read whatever argument you think shows a distinction between one who is an atheist and one who says in his heart
                                  there is no God, but I don't think I care to waste time on that, if that really is your position.

                                  If you are convinced it is a theist who is lying to himself...trying to convince himself there is no God...and you want to also
                                  think of him as a fool too, then that's just fine with me.

                                  However all atheists do say that too.

                                  And regardless of whether you think the Bible plainly teaches that atheists are fools, they are lost, and that should be reason enough for them to seek another path...AND for you who think you are following the Bible to stop encouraging them as you do here.

                                  BTW, I would never use Ps. 14:1 to try to prove YE vs. AE...and I doubt that others do either.

                                  DW

                                  ------------------------------------
                                  ------------------------------------



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • w_w_c_l
                                  ... Because it plainly says that God looked down on the children of men, and there were *none* who had understanding, they are *all* gone aside, they *all* had
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                    I had written:

                                    >> I think the context here in Psalm 14 and Psalm 53
                                    >> is clearly not talking about the 10% or so of
                                    >> modern humanity who claim to be "atheists":

                                    DB Willis now replies:

                                    > Oh NO...why would ANYONE think that when we read
                                    > "says in his heart there is no God" or "(does not)
                                    > seek after God" or "call not upon Jehovah" or "(not
                                    > having) Jehovah as his refuge"...that it is referring
                                    > to atheists? Who would have thought such a thing???

                                    Because it plainly says that God looked down on the
                                    children of men, and there were *none* who had
                                    understanding, they are *all* gone aside, they *all*
                                    had become filthy, there were *none* that do good,
                                    *NO, NOT ONE*.

                                    He is plainly not looking down and singling out a
                                    minority subset of humans who call themselves "atheists".
                                    When one uses these verses to "prove" "all atheists are
                                    fools" it is no more than saying that "all atheists are
                                    among the children of men".


                                    I had said:

                                    >> Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 are speaking of those who live as
                                    >> if there is no coming judgment. Humanity in general
                                    >> lives as if there is none -- not just those who say
                                    >> that there is no God, but those who claim to believe
                                    >> in God but then live as if there is not.

                                    DB Willis replies:

                                    > I have not denied that there are more fools than just
                                    > atheists. Theists who live as if there is no God are
                                    > fools too. All fools are not atheists but all atheists
                                    > are fools. That is clear from this passage...and
                                    > others.

                                    Well, from some of those other verses we know that ALL
                                    the wisdom of man is but foolishness in the eyes of God,
                                    and ALL the righteousness of man is but filthy rags in
                                    His sight.

                                    The term used for theists who "live as if there is no
                                    god" is "practical atheism", which is not to say that
                                    those theists are atheists.

                                    So why dost thou boast, DB Willis?


                                    I had written:

                                    >> I think you need to include Psalm 10 in your "context",
                                    >> which makes this more evident.

                                    DB Willis replies:

                                    > Yes! I agree we should look also at Ps. 10.
                                    > "4 The wicked, in the pride of his countenance,
                                    > [saith], He will not require [it]. All his
                                    > thoughts are, There is no God."

                                    This may be a minor quibble, but that verse doesn't
                                    look anything like that in my Bible.


                                    > The passage tells us that not only are all atheists
                                    > FOOLS...

                                    This passage doesn't say anything at all about atheists
                                    being fools -- the word "fool" doesn't appear anywhere
                                    in Psalm 10. Nor does "atheist" -- and in most Bible
                                    translations verse 4 says something like the wicked man
                                    does not have room for God in his thoughts -- not that
                                    he has proclaimed himself to be an atheist.


                                    > ...but also they are WICKED. I appreciate your
                                    > bringing that to my attention, Rick. I'm sure the
                                    > atheists feel much better now.

                                    What I was trying to lead you to see is that these "wicked"
                                    who are living as if there is no God are not "atheists" in
                                    the sense that we use the term today, and that the same
                                    sort of wickedness of Psalm 14 and 53 (and 36) is what we
                                    see in Psalm 10 -- these are not "atheists" except in the
                                    practical sense that they are living as if they don't fear
                                    the judgment, which would make the term applicable, perhaps,
                                    even to people like DB Willis.


                                    > Of course there are wicked theists too. "11 He saith in
                                    > his heart, God hath forgotten; He hideth his face; he
                                    > will never see it."

                                    I think it is obvious that this is the same "wicked" that
                                    is being spoken of throughout Psalm 10.

                                    The point about these Psalms is that people -- not
                                    "atheists", Willis, but the wayward of Israel and the
                                    enemies of David, are living as if there is not ever
                                    going to be a final judgment by a Righteous Judge.

                                    These Psalms are not meant for you to use in insulting
                                    the people who need to come to the Lord. And they sure
                                    aren't meant to be something you throw out at someone
                                    in the place of a rational answer when they point out
                                    the factual errors in your arguments.

                                    You tell the atheist -- who might happen to know a little
                                    something about science -- that he has to believe the
                                    Earth is only a few thousand years old to be a good
                                    Christian, and then you show him some of your bogus
                                    young-earth "scientific evidence" and he tells you that
                                    your evidence is nonsense, and so you call him a fool.

                                    The devil had to stay up late one night to come up
                                    with that tactic.


                                    I had written:

                                    >> How people live, DB Willis, rather than what they may
                                    >> say with their mouths, is a better indication of what
                                    >> they "have said in their heart". I think the Scriptures
                                    >> will support that notion.

                                    DB Willis replies:

                                    > It is a nice try...to try to pin me with saying that
                                    > how people live does not matter as long as they say
                                    > (insincerely) that they believe in God. I do not say
                                    > that. It shows desperation on your part to try to pin
                                    > on me something I would never say...and you KNOW it.

                                    I haven't said anything about what you would or wouldn't
                                    say.

                                    And again, you seem to be having a difficult time with
                                    simple sentences. I said that how people live is an
                                    indication of what they "have said in their heart", and
                                    the reason I said it is because (1) you, like others,
                                    seem to be determined to leave that part out of the verse,
                                    and (2) pretend that these verses are directed specifically
                                    to modern-day "atheists", when in fact they are better seen
                                    as reminders to *us* that there is a time coming when God
                                    will judge the living and the dead.


                                    I had written:

                                    >> I don't think that is what Robert is saying. He is
                                    >> saying that the use of Psalm 14:1 to "prove" that
                                    >> "all atheists are fools" is both logically false and
                                    >> unsound biblical hermeneutics --

                                    DB Willis replies:

                                    > I proved by many scriptures that often this sort of
                                    > wording is used to say "all those who...(insert)....are
                                    > fools, wicked, evil, wise, blessed, etc."

                                    Let me interrupt you here for just a moment to point out
                                    that you snipped out the rest of my comment, which was:

                                    >> -- even IF all atheists are fools that is not
                                    >> what you, as a believer, are supposed to be
                                    >> getting out of Psalm 14 or 53 (or 10).

                                    Now, as to those Bible verses you provided in another
                                    message, only *some* of them illustrate the sort of
                                    conversion you are talking about, they are *proverbs*,
                                    and *none* of them speak of the action in the past tense,
                                    as in, "the fool *hath* said." Psalms and Proverbs
                                    were written by different writers using different styles.

                                    Regardless of that, there remains the problem of you
                                    trying to say that ALL atheists have definitely said
                                    in their hearts that there is no such thing as God.
                                    I don't think all atheists will agree with you about
                                    that. And as far as the characteristics of those fools
                                    in the Psalms, there are certainly some atheists who
                                    are more upright in these regards than some of these
                                    supposed "preachers of righteousness" right here on
                                    these lists, weighing out their tithes of cummin while
                                    they gobble up widows' houses, who search the Scriptures,
                                    for in them they think they can deny to others "eternal
                                    life".


                                    DB Willis says:

                                    > Baty can squawk all day that I haven't given "evidence"
                                    > for my "ipse dixit" but I did indeed provide the textual
                                    > evidence. Any fair reader can easily see that, but I
                                    > doubt there are many fair readers on Baty's list.

                                    Comments like that can only serve to alienate you from
                                    what few "fair readers" we do have.


                                    > It is OBVIOUS from the immediate context of Ps. 14:1
                                    > that a plurality is being referenced, not just a
                                    > single man.

                                    What is obvious from the context is that all of mankind
                                    is being referenced in these verses.


                                    > And it is obvious also from the broader context that
                                    > this is a Hebrew idiom to say "all those who say there
                                    > is no God are fools." He says of those who "seek not
                                    > God" (:2) that they are "ALL gone aside" (:3), and
                                    > "there is NONE of them that doeth good."

                                    What do you mean, "none of *them*"? He says this of
                                    "the children of men". He isn't saying that some small
                                    bunch of fools has decided there is no God, He is saying
                                    that all of mankind is gone astray, that there is NONE
                                    that understands.


                                    > Forget :1 if you want. :2-3 tells us plainly that all
                                    > those who seek not God (which of course includes atheists,
                                    > as well as negligent theists)...they are ALL gone aside
                                    > and NONE of them do good."

                                    What about those devout theists who are not "negligent" --
                                    but just happen to be Muslims?

                                    Atheists and negligent theists takes care of just about
                                    the whole human race, wouldn't you say? So again, to say
                                    based on these verses that all atheists are fools
                                    does not put the theist who is doing the name-calling
                                    on any moral high-ground.


                                    > So whether you want to agree they are fools or not,
                                    > atheists are ALL worthless in their present state and
                                    > they will ALL be damned.

                                    I think we understand that all atheists are under
                                    condemnation, DB. But that doesn't mean that the atheist
                                    is wrong about geology and astronomy and the age of the
                                    Earth and everything else creationists are deliberately
                                    ignorant of, ignorance they flaunt as if it were
                                    something to be proud of, ignorance from which they make
                                    claims about the real world and expect their claims to
                                    be taken as fact. It doesn't mean that when somebody,
                                    atheist or not, points out the false nature of the
                                    creationists' claims, that the creationist is justified in
                                    resorting to ad hominem remarks rather than correcting the
                                    errors they have been spouting off from their own ignorance.

                                    When you call the atheist a fool just because you don't
                                    know doodlum about geology but have been yakking away as
                                    if you did, what kind of witness is that? You certainly
                                    aren't giving the atheist any reason to think that your
                                    views may be correct.

                                    If he can't believe you about earthly things, how is he
                                    supposed to believe you about heavenly things?


                                    > If you or Baty are claiming to be christians, you should
                                    > stop comforting atheists to help them feel they are in
                                    > less danger than they are. It is in direct defiance to
                                    > what your Lord (if you claim Jesus is Lord) would want
                                    > an atheist to feel.

                                    So now DB Willis is claiming to speak for Jesus? If you
                                    look at the words that Jesus actually spoke Himself, I
                                    think you will find that His most severe condemnation
                                    was for false teachers who claimed to speak for God.


                                    I had said:

                                    >> So you seem to understand here that people might not
                                    >> take kindly to being arbitrarily called a "fool".

                                    DB Willis replies:

                                    > Neither I nor God arbitrarily calls anyone a fool. The
                                    > atheists earn the title, and then I use it on them as
                                    > God does.
                                    >
                                    > DW

                                    I beg to differ. You use these verses in a way that God
                                    does NOT. That's the point.

                                    God knows what the children of men have said in their hearts.

                                    You don't.



                                    Rick Hartzog
                                    Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism



                                    ----------------------------------
                                  • w_w_c_l
                                    Robert, These are good points you make about Psalm 10. I think you get it! Rick ... along. That is, the reference to the fool in Psalm 14:1 has reference to
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                      Robert,

                                      These are good points you make about Psalm 10.

                                      I think you get it!


                                      Rick


                                      --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Baty"
                                      <rlbaty@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > (Note: My earlier post in response to DBWillis'
                                      > "deceitful gain" problem, which he evaded, is
                                      > attached for additional reference.-RLBaty)
                                      >
                                      > DBWillis more recently wrote to Rick, in relevant part:
                                      >
                                      > > Yes!
                                      >
                                      > > I agree we should look also
                                      > > at Ps. 10.
                                      >
                                      > >> "4 The wicked, in the pride of
                                      > >> his countenance, [saith], He will
                                      > >> not require [it]. All his thoughts
                                      > >> are, There is no God."
                                      >
                                      > > The passage tells us that...all
                                      > > atheists are WICKED.
                                      >
                                      > That's according to DBWillis' ipse dixit idiom rule!
                                      > DBWillis then added:
                                      >
                                      > > Of course there are wicked theists
                                      > > too.
                                      >
                                      > >> "11 He saith in his heart, God
                                      > >> hath forgotten; He hideth his
                                      > >> face; he will never see it."
                                      >
                                      > HMM? Why didn't DBWillis use his ipse dixit idiom on that
                                      > and conclude that verse 11 tells us that
                                      >
                                      > > "all theists are wicked"?????
                                      >
                                      > Here's a little more context for Psalm 10 (KJV):
                                      >
                                      > > (2) The wicked...
                                      >
                                      > > (3) For the wicked...
                                      >
                                      > > (4) The wicked, through the pride
                                      > > of his countenance, will not seek
                                      > > after God; God is not in all his
                                      > > thoughts.
                                      >
                                      > > (5) His ways...
                                      >
                                      > > (6) He hath...
                                      >
                                      > > (7) His mouth...
                                      >
                                      > > (8) He sitteth...
                                      >
                                      > > (9) He lieth...
                                      >
                                      > > (10) He croucheth...
                                      >
                                      > > (11) He hath said in his heart, God
                                      > > hath forgotten: he hideth his face;
                                      > > he will never see it.
                                      >
                                      > > (13) Wherefore doth the wicked
                                      > > contemn God? he hath said in
                                      > > is heart, Thou wilt not require it.
                                      >
                                      > > (15) Break thou the arm of the
                                      > > wicked and the evil man...
                                      >
                                      > I'm just wondering how it is that DBWillis figured that
                                      > verse 4 was referencing "all atheists" while verse 11
                                      > was referencing "some theists"?
                                      >
                                      > DBWillis evaded dealing with the apparent problem he had
                                      > with interpreting the "deceitful gain" passage. Maybe he
                                      > will deal with this issue now that I've posted it to his
                                      > preferred subject thread??
                                      >
                                      > DBWillis interprets Psalm 10:4 to reference "all atheists".
                                      >
                                      > DBWillis inteprets Psalm 10:11 to reference "some theists".
                                      >
                                      > How is that justified by DBWillis?
                                      >
                                      > My commentator, referenced earlier, disagrees with DBWillis
                                      > and writes as if he believes the one referenced in verse 11
                                      > is the same sort referenced in verse 4.
                                      >
                                      > Sincerely,
                                      > Robert Baty
                                      >
                                      > ---------My "deceitful gain" Post---------
                                      >
                                      > From: Robert Baty
                                      > To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Date: Saturday, September 6, 2008 7:15 PM
                                      >
                                      > Subject: [M & B] Re: The Baty Games Continue!
                                      >
                                      > Just a side note for possible relevance:
                                      >
                                      > DBWillis wrote, in part:
                                      >
                                      > >> Pr 11:18 - The wicked earneth
                                      > >> deceitful wages;
                                      >
                                      > > All those who earn by deceit are
                                      > > wicked. It is "not" true in converse.
                                      > > Not all wicked people earn by
                                      > > deceit.
                                      >
                                      > By contrast, one commentator I read after, who appeared to be
                                      > a better commentator than DBWillis, wrote in relevant part:
                                      >
                                      > > "The godless acquire deceptive gain"
                                      >
                                      > >> The labour of the godless has
                                      > >> selfishness as its motive, and
                                      > >> what he acquires by his labour
                                      > >> is therefore "delusive gain"--
                                      > >> it is no blessing, it profits him
                                      > >> not, and it brings him no
                                      > >> advantage.
                                      >
                                      > It sounds to me like my commentator is interpreting the
                                      > verse, contrary to DBWillis, so as to refer to "all
                                      > godless/wicked" folk and is telling us the verse is
                                      > telling us something about those folk and their "gain".
                                      >
                                      > Regarding Psalm 14:1, my commentator writes, in relevant part:
                                      >
                                      > > A free spirit of this class (fool/scoffer)
                                      > > is reckoned according to the Scriptures
                                      > > among the empty, hollow, and devoid
                                      > > of mind.
                                      >
                                      > > It is not merely practical atheism, that
                                      > > is intended by this maxim ("no God")
                                      > > of the (fool).
                                      >
                                      > > The heart according to the Scripture
                                      > > language is not only the seat of
                                      > > volition, but also of thought.
                                      >
                                      > > The (fool) is not content with acting
                                      > > as though there were no God, but
                                      > > directly denies that there is a God,
                                      > > i.e., a personal God.
                                      >
                                      > > The psalmist makes this prominent
                                      > > as the very extreme and depth of
                                      > > human depravity, that there can
                                      > > be among men those who deny
                                      > > the existence of a God.
                                      >
                                      > My commentator appears to be telling me that Psalm 14:1
                                      > is telling us something about "all" the fools referenced
                                      > thereat, contrary to the claim by DBWillis that it is
                                      > telling us something about "atheists".
                                      >
                                      > I do think I'm getting it though!
                                      >
                                      > DBWillis actually does agree with me in my criticism of
                                      > the INVALID argument that has been offered to show that
                                      > atheists are fools:
                                      >
                                      > > The fool sayeth in his heart
                                      > > there is no God. Psalm 14:1
                                      > > (A says B.)
                                      >
                                      > > XXX says in his heart there
                                      > > is no God.
                                      > > (C says B.)
                                      >
                                      > > XXX is a fool.
                                      > > (C is an A.)
                                      >
                                      > DBWillis does actually agree with me that the above is
                                      > INVALID. I think that Terry W. Benton also agrees with me,
                                      > but he hasn't actually admitted, explained and corrected
                                      > his error related thereto.
                                      >
                                      > Nope, the way around the problem is for them to propose
                                      > an interpretation claim such as:
                                      >
                                      > > "Some fools say in their heart
                                      > > there is no God" means that
                                      > > "all who say in their heart
                                      > > there is no God are fools".
                                      > > Psalm 14:1
                                      >
                                      > I'm not convinced, but I understand, I think, where DBWillis
                                      > is trying to go with that.
                                      >
                                      > Sincerely,
                                      > Robert Baty
                                      >
                                      > -----Earlier Message-----
                                      >
                                      > From: Robert Baty
                                      > Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 3:34 PM
                                      > To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [M & B] Re: The Baty Games Continue!
                                      >
                                      > DBWillis writes:
                                      >
                                      > > I will provide textual evidence of
                                      > > the Hebrew idiom which uses a
                                      > > singular to express a general or
                                      > > sometimes even a universal/absolute
                                      > > truth. I know that not every instance
                                      > > of the use of a singular is for that
                                      > > purpose but it often is.
                                      >
                                      > At best, what DBWillis has shown is what I have been proposing all
                                      along. That is, the reference to "the fool" in Psalm 14:1 has
                                      reference to "ALL" the fools the verse addresses. In other words, my
                                      position was, is and will be that:
                                      >
                                      > > All the fools of Psalm 14:1 say
                                      > > in their hearts there is no God.
                                      >
                                      > DBWillis needs to try his hand with Terry W. Benton who has yet to
                                      join me in that position on which DBWillis and I already agree.
                                      >
                                      > What DBWillis has not done is show that
                                      >
                                      > > "all fools say in their hearts
                                      > > there is no God (Psalm 14:1)"
                                      >
                                      > >> logically/idiomatically/Hebraically
                                      > >> converts to
                                      >
                                      > > "all atheists are fools".
                                      >
                                      > It is not enough to simply show that in Hebrew you can say "all
                                      atheists are fools". That is not what is in dispute!
                                      >
                                      > What did DBWillis say about that? Here it is:
                                      >
                                      > > Pr 28:7 - Whoso keepeth the law
                                      > > is a wise son; But he that is a
                                      > > companion of gluttons shameth
                                      > > his father.
                                      >
                                      > and
                                      >
                                      > > Pr 15:5 - A fool despiseth his
                                      > > father's correction; But he that
                                      > > regardeth reproof getteth
                                      > > prudence.
                                      >
                                      > > THIS IS THE SAME IDEA, BUT IN
                                      > > THIS CASE IT IS EXPRESSED IN
                                      > > THE OTHER WAY.
                                      >
                                      > > IT SAYS THE SAME THING IN
                                      > > HEBREW TO SAY "A FOOL SAYS
                                      > > THERE IS NO GOD" AND "WHO-
                                      > > SOEVER SAYS THERE IS NO GOD
                                      > > IS A FOOL."
                                      >
                                      > Nope! Prs. 28:7 15:5 are not analogous to the Psalm 14:1 issue in
                                      dispute. We simply have another ipse dixit, "just take my word for
                                      it", from DBWillis.
                                      >
                                      > DBWillis SAYS:
                                      >
                                      > > IT SAYS THE SAME THING IN
                                      > > HEBREW TO SAY "A FOOL SAYS
                                      > > THERE IS NO GOD" AND "WHO-
                                      > > SOEVER SAYS THERE IS NO GOD
                                      > > IS A FOOL."
                                      >
                                      > Well, DBWillis hasn't come up with the evidence for that, and I am
                                      not inclined to believe him. DBWillis' claim proposes the following:
                                      >
                                      > > A fool sayeth in his heart
                                      > > there is no God.
                                      > > (A says B.)
                                      >
                                      > > XXX says in his heart there
                                      > > is no God.
                                      > > (C says B.)
                                      >
                                      > > Therefore, XXX is a fool.
                                      > > (C is an A.)
                                      >
                                      > DBWillis has already indicated he agrees with me that the above
                                      argument is INVALID.
                                      >
                                      > Will DBWillis now be explicit in joining me in recognizing the
                                      above as INVALID?
                                      >
                                      > DBWillis effectively proposes that
                                      >
                                      > > "a fool sayeth in his heart there
                                      > > is no God" (Psalm 14:1)
                                      >
                                      > converts, at least in Hebrew, to
                                      >
                                      > > "all atheists are fools".
                                      >
                                      > Where's the proof? DBWillis has tried and failed to provide any
                                      proof that Psalm 14:1 is not to be taken literally as referring to
                                      all of certain class of "fools" and telling us something about them.
                                      >
                                      > Will DBWillis keep his word, like Terry W. Benton has been keeping
                                      his claim he just "ain't going to repent", and leave the discussion
                                      without doing what he said he would do and without, in the
                                      alternative, repenting and bringing forth his works meet for
                                      repentance.
                                      >
                                      > We will see! DBWillis has neglected much in these discussions, and
                                      he needs to find that place in his heart for repentance and begin to
                                      bring forth his works meet for repentance.
                                      >
                                      > We will see!
                                      >
                                      > Sincerely,
                                      > Robert Baty
                                      >
                                      > P.S. Does anybody else here get the impression that DBWillis'
                                      postion may be briefly summed up as:
                                      >
                                      > > I, DBWillis, have my "figurative/
                                      > > idiomatic" interpretation Psalm
                                      > > 14:1 and that trumps any
                                      > > evidence to the contrary.
                                      >
                                      > -----------------------------------
                                      > -----------------------------------
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • DBWILLIS@aol.com
                                      David Willis here, RB, instead of conjuring up in your paranoid head some deep dark sinister reason for my not posting to FOT any more, just figure I am not
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                        David Willis here,

                                        RB, instead of conjuring up in your paranoid head some deep dark sinister
                                        "reason" for my not posting to FOT any more, just figure I am not wanting to
                                        burden them further, esp. given that your side is not being posted there now.
                                        I may or may not send to FOT, and I don't appreciate your ugly implications
                                        of false motives you always like to try to attribute to me.

                                        >> I would like to have their
                                        details as to at least one "fool" referenced in Psalm 14:1 that does NOT say
                                        in
                                        his heart there is no God.

                                        Or is it the case that my adversaries, "in their hearts", do actually agree
                                        with
                                        the that it is "all" the fools referenced in Psalm 14:1 that say in their
                                        hearts
                                        "there is no God"?
                                        >>

                                        Those who are denounced in Ps. 14 include fools who say there is no God, and
                                        then it gives other types of people who are denounced too. (Same goes for
                                        Ps. 10 or 53.) It is very likely they may overlap, but possibly sometimes
                                        they may not. Maybe some who did "no good" were neglectful theists. How that
                                        helps someone NOT see atheists as fools is beyond me. Those who say "there
                                        is no God" could well include some theists too, who are telling themselves that
                                        in some insincere way (when they really know there IS a God). However, ALL
                                        atheists say that so they ALL are fools.

                                        Rick>>these are not "atheists" except in the
                                        practical sense that they are living as if they don't fear
                                        the judgment, which would make the term applicable, perhaps,
                                        even to people like DB Willis.>>

                                        Fine. I will accept that all strict atheists as well as practical atheists
                                        (which could include even some claiming to be christians) are fools and
                                        wicked.

                                        >>And they sure
                                        aren't meant to be something you throw out at someone
                                        in the place of a rational answer when they point out
                                        the factual errors in your arguments.>>

                                        I don't use Ps. 14:1 to try to support my YE view at all. I would say the
                                        same about the passage if I were AE.

                                        >>You tell the atheist -- who might happen to know a little
                                        something about science -- that he has to believe the
                                        Earth is only a few thousand years old to be a good
                                        Christian, and then you show him some of your bogus
                                        young-earth "scientific evidence" and he tells you that
                                        your evidence is nonsense, and so you call him a fool.

                                        The devil had to stay up late one night to come up
                                        with that tactic.>>

                                        How late did he stay up with you to convince you to falsely accuse me of
                                        that? Do you have a regularly scheduled appointment each night?

                                        >>(2) pretend that these verses are directed specifically
                                        to modern-day "atheists", when in fact they are better seen
                                        as reminders to *us* that there is a time coming when God
                                        will judge the living and the dead.>>

                                        It applies to both. How much clearer do I need to say that for you? How
                                        that helps you I just don't see. It still means that all (including atheists)
                                        who have said that in their hearts...are fools.

                                        >>they are *proverbs*,
                                        and *none* of them speak of the action in the past tense,
                                        as in, "the fool *hath* said.">>

                                        How much Hebrew have you taken, Rick? Before posing as an expert it usually
                                        helps to LEARN it before you attempt to TEACH it. This word "says" is not
                                        in the past tense. It is in the Hebrew preterite tense which serves for
                                        simple action whether past or present, much like the Greek aorist. "Saith" or
                                        "says" is a perfectly fine way to express it. "Hath said" may also be, but it
                                        surely is not the only or best way. Past is NOT exclusively the use of the
                                        preterite. The ASV and ESV are both great tr's and one says "hath said" and
                                        the other says "says." Stop the posing, Rick. You are no Hebrew expert.

                                        _http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa14.pdf_
                                        (http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa14.pdf) (this interlinear has it as
                                        "he says")

                                        >>>Regardless of that, there remains the problem of you
                                        trying to say that ALL atheists have definitely said
                                        in their hearts that there is no such thing as God.
                                        I don't think all atheists will agree with you about
                                        that.>>

                                        Not buyin' it. It is stupid. The word means that! If you want to invent
                                        new definitions then don't be surprised that you have trouble selling them.

                                        >>And as far as the characteristics of those fools
                                        in the Psalms, there are certainly some atheists who
                                        are more upright in these regards than some of these
                                        supposed "preachers of righteousness">>

                                        If you want to say how great atheists are in other ways...how upright (or
                                        whatever) they are....fine. They are still fools acc. to this passage.
                                        Upright fools I guess.

                                        >>weighing out their tithes of cummin while
                                        they gobble up widows' houses, who search the Scriptures,
                                        for in them they think they can deny to others "eternal
                                        life".
                                        >>

                                        Stop pretending I would defend some insincere or neglectful theist. I
                                        don't. You just need a straw man to bash because you can't defeat a real one.

                                        >>Atheists and negligent theists takes care of just about
                                        the whole human race, wouldn't you say? So again, to say
                                        based on these verses that all atheists are fools
                                        does not put the theist who is doing the name-calling
                                        on any moral high-ground.>>

                                        Bash away at the straw man. I never have said that atheists are the only
                                        fools...not even the only fools in this passage! But they all ARE fools.

                                        >>I think we understand that all atheists are under
                                        condemnation, DB. But that doesn't mean that the atheist
                                        is wrong about geology and astronomy and the age of the
                                        Earth and everything else creationists are deliberately
                                        ignorant of, ignorance they flaunt as if it were
                                        something to be proud of, ignorance from which they make
                                        claims about the real world and expect their claims to
                                        be taken as fact.>>

                                        No one has said that. They may have lots of "knowledge" especially when
                                        atheists are the ones doing the assessment of that. But smart people can be
                                        moral fools. Theists with lots of "head smarts" can be fools too.

                                        >>It doesn't mean that when somebody,
                                        atheist or not, points out the false nature of the
                                        creationists' claims, that the creationist is justified in
                                        resorting to ad hominem remarks rather than correcting the
                                        errors they have been spouting off from their own ignorance.
                                        >>

                                        I agree that if someone tried to say, "this man is an atheist and therefore
                                        for that reason alone he must be wrong on this point"....he would be wrong to
                                        do that. Nobody I know of does that. You are bashing a straw man. Sounds
                                        like YOU are the one using ad hominems.

                                        >>You certainly
                                        aren't giving the atheist any reason to think that your
                                        views may be correct.>>

                                        I totally agree that if all I said was "he is an atheist, atheists are fools
                                        so they must be wrong on this scientific point for that reason alone"...I
                                        have not given a good reason to him. So can we move on? The Bible still says
                                        he is a fool. Saying he is a fool does not of itself mean that each argument
                                        he uses has no "smart science" in it. It is his conclusion that makes him a
                                        fool.

                                        >>God knows what the children of men have said in their hearts.

                                        You don't.
                                        >>

                                        You are right. Unless the man tells me his true belief, however many
                                        atheists do that. Perhaps some claimed theists are truly "closet atheists" or
                                        "practical atheists" too. I am right to say "if he is really an atheist as he
                                        said to me with his mouth, then he is indeed a fool". And I can also say, "if
                                        he is really an atheist when he says with his mouth he is not...then he also
                                        is a fool." BOTH say it in their heart. I honestly think it is foolish to
                                        try to carve out some tiny group of "professed atheists who don't say in their
                                        heart there is no God." That is ridiculous. That, by definition, is what
                                        atheists DO.


                                        (Carefully considering how many more pearls should be expended here).

                                        DW



                                        **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
                                        plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
                                        (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Robert Baty
                                        ... We have noticed that DBWillis is NOT a Hebrew expert. In fact, he hasn t even been able to find one Hebrew expert that will support his ipse dixit idiom
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                          DBWillis wrote to Rick, in part:

                                          > You (Rick Hartzog) are no
                                          > Hebrew expert.

                                          We have noticed that DBWillis is NOT a Hebrew expert.

                                          In fact, he hasn't even been able to find one Hebrew expert that will support his "ipse dixit idiom" claim as it relates to Psalm 14:1.

                                          In fact, it appears from his latest messages that DBWillis, like Veto Roley abandoned his similar claim, is abandoning his ipse dixit idiom claim without being courteous enough to explicitly admit, explain and correct his error(s) related thereto.

                                          Who knows, perhaps DBWillis is going to just wait, taking the position that someone else, somewhere else will eventually prove up his ipse dixit idiom claim.

                                          Regarding the issue of DBWillis' posts ceasing to make it to the Focus_on_Truth list, DBWillis writes, in part:

                                          > Just figure I am not wanting
                                          > to burden them further...

                                          Nah! I don't think I'll figure that's it at all!

                                          DBWillis went on to write, in part:

                                          > I don't appreciate your ugly
                                          > implications of false motives...

                                          How about that! For all that DBWillis and his kind have said and done with their false and misleading representations of me that I can't get them to admit, explain and correct, DBWillis proposes I am the one making "ugly accusations of false motives"!

                                          Such has been typical in such discussions, and such provides further documentation regarding the application of the principles of Matthew 7:1,2 and James 3:1.

                                          DBWillis and his kind can certainly dish it out, but they have been observed having a hard time "taking it"! In my case, they "dish out" in error while I return the "dish" most appropriately while awaiting their repentance and works meet for repentance:

                                          > Matthew 7:1,2
                                          > James 3:1

                                          Sincerely,
                                          Robert Baty



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Robert Baty
                                          I m having another Matthew 7:1,2 / James 3:1 moment! ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Focus_On_Truth/message/25376 ... Get it ! DBWillis pulled out his ipse
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                            I'm having another Matthew 7:1,2 / James 3:1 moment!

                                            Consider the following from DBWillis in another context and as he expresses concern about his adversary's position:

                                            ------------------------------------------

                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Focus_On_Truth/message/25376

                                            > No, you added the last two words
                                            > ...to make it mean what YOU want
                                            > it to say, not what it says.

                                            > DBWillis

                                            -------------------------------------
                                            -------------------------------------

                                            "Get it"!

                                            DBWillis pulled out his ipse dixit idiom to twist around Psalm 14:1 to say what DBWillis wanted it to say instead of accepting what Psalm 14:1 does say, and then he goes off complaining, alleging that someone who doesn't agree with him is guilty of the same sort of thing.

                                            I win!

                                            Sincerely,
                                            Robert Baty


                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Robert Baty
                                            Sent: Monday, September 8, 2008 3:06 PM
                                            To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [M & B] Re: Necessity of Hermeneutics: (All atheists are fools)

                                            DBWillis wrote to Rick, in part:

                                            > You (Rick Hartzog) are no
                                            > Hebrew expert.

                                            We have noticed that DBWillis is NOT a Hebrew expert.

                                            In fact, he hasn't even been able to find one Hebrew expert that will support his "ipse dixit idiom" claim as it relates to Psalm 14:1.

                                            In fact, it appears from his latest messages that DBWillis, like Veto Roley abandoned his similar claim, is abandoning his ipse dixit idiom claim without being courteous enough to explicitly admit, explain and correct his error(s) related thereto.

                                            Who knows, perhaps DBWillis is going to just wait, taking the position that someone else, somewhere else will eventually prove up his ipse dixit idiom claim.

                                            Regarding the issue of DBWillis' posts ceasing to make it to the Focus_on_Truth list, DBWillis writes, in part:

                                            > Just figure I am not wanting
                                            > to burden them further...

                                            Nah! I don't think I'll figure that's it at all!

                                            DBWillis went on to write, in part:

                                            > I don't appreciate your ugly
                                            > implications of false motives...

                                            How about that! For all that DBWillis and his kind have said and done with their false and misleading representations of me that I can't get them to admit, explain and correct, DBWillis proposes I am the one making "ugly accusations of false motives"!

                                            Such has been typical in such discussions, and such provides further documentation regarding the application of the principles of Matthew 7:1,2 and James 3:1.

                                            DBWillis and his kind can certainly dish it out, but they have been observed having a hard time "taking it"! In my case, they "dish out" in error while I return the "dish" most appropriately while awaiting their repentance and works meet for repentance:

                                            > Matthew 7:1,2
                                            > James 3:1

                                            Sincerely,
                                            Robert Baty



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • w_w_c_l
                                            Boy, I ve seen some backhanded apologies before, but this one has to be right up there with the best of them... ... Apparently it is DB Willis I have
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                              Boy, I've seen some backhanded "apologies" before, but
                                              this one has to be right up there with the best of them...

                                              DB Willis now writes:

                                              > David Willis here,
                                              >
                                              > Rick, you flatter yourself to think that I have studied
                                              > your posts enough to know (or remember) whether you are
                                              > an atheist or not.

                                              Apparently it is DB Willis I have unjustifiably flattered,
                                              by assuming he would be able to remember our almost daily
                                              discussions that spanned a period of about three months,
                                              less than two years ago!


                                              > You can believe that or not, I really don't care. I
                                              > frankly don't pay as much attention to you as you fellas
                                              > seem to pay to me so as to allow me to keep that straight.

                                              If you aren't able to *keep* things straight, maybe it would
                                              serve you well to *get* them straight before you go passing
                                              out your UN-straight claims to others.


                                              > And I would bet I'm not the first one to be confused on
                                              > that matter either!

                                              No, there are a lot of young-earth creationists who seem
                                              to get "confused" about that, and start calling me an
                                              atheist! There is also a certain church of Christ
                                              "historian" who seems to be "confused" about it as well...

                                              Funny how that confusion seems to strike just when they
                                              are needing some way to vilify the person who is pointing
                                              out their errors!


                                              > I think I do pretty well to remember that Baty is not
                                              > one, actually considering how often he and others here
                                              > sound like one. You probably won't believe it, but I did
                                              > not intentionally misrepresent your view.

                                              Maybe it's just a manifestation of your subconscious -- you'll
                                              do it all the way through this message.

                                              On the other hand, maybe it isn't quite so unintentional as
                                              you would like people to believe, which is what I think the
                                              weight of the evidence will show.


                                              > I was speaking more broadly than the singular "you" and
                                              > figured that if you weren't an atheist yourself others who
                                              > read this list probably were.

                                              You figured wrong. That's because your mind is playing
                                              tricks on you.


                                              > Maybe it should concern you a little that a person who
                                              > has read some of your material would honestly not be
                                              > able to know or keep straight in his mind if you were or
                                              > weren't an atheist.

                                              The problem with keeping things straight in your mind is
                                              your own -- it doesn't have anything to do with me. It is
                                              a result of you and your like-minded brethren not being
                                              able to get your story straight. You build up this
                                              hypothetical alternate reality full of ad hoc excuses and
                                              you have to keep double-checking yourself for contradictions.

                                              Naturally, after a while you get "confused" and can't
                                              remember what all claims you have made and how it all has
                                              to fit together.

                                              So when somebody points out your confusion, they are
                                              threatening your "reality" and the only way to get rid of
                                              them is to write them off as being evil.

                                              I think I've got you pegged, Willis.


                                              > I know that would concern ME.

                                              Whatever! The only thing you have to do to get labelled
                                              an atheist around these parts is point out to some
                                              young-earth creationist that the stupid "moon recession"
                                              argument, even if the creationist's numbers were right,
                                              would still not make any sense.

                                              After it's happened a few times you figure out that if
                                              you are going to speak the truth, there are going to be
                                              creationists in the church of Christ calling you an
                                              atheist.

                                              That "concerns" me, all right, but not in the way you
                                              are implying it should.


                                              > I also know that "Todd Green" (if that is his real name)
                                              > used to operate under a cowardly false ID on Berean Spirit
                                              > as a theist when he was NOT one (Heiden was the last name...
                                              > forgot the first) and many, including myself GENEROUSLY
                                              > credited him erroneously with having faith when he did
                                              > NOT. So maybe that puts me even on that score.

                                              Ah, you must be referring to this little incident!:
                                              http://www.outersystem.us/creationism/steveheiden.html

                                              I think I have mentioned already that a further danger
                                              of calling someone a fool is that they might turn around
                                              and make a fool out of *you*:
                                              http://www.outersystem.us/creationism/steveheiden12.html

                                              That has to be embarrassing.

                                              An interesting point about this is that you are accusing
                                              Todd of duplicity on a list where you were deliberately
                                              misrepresenting the Laetoli tracks:
                                              http://www.outersystem.us/creationism/footprints.html


                                              > I sort of figured that someone IDing himself as a member
                                              > of "the church of Latitudinarianism" (whatever THAT is...
                                              > sounds totally bogus to me) was also likely pretending
                                              > to be religious when he really isn't...sort of like how
                                              > Barry Lynn (famous atheist) pretends to be a Rev. and
                                              > head of some fake church just to mock those with real
                                              > religious conviction. If that really is a church, you
                                              > all maybe should think of coming up with another name that
                                              > isn't so hokey-sounding so others won't figure it is meant
                                              > as a joke.

                                              1) There you go "figuring" again.
                                              2) Maybe you should do a little historical research
                                              on those who were labelled "latitudinarians".
                                              3) Your "religious convictions" may be real, but your
                                              young-earth dogma is wrong.
                                              4) But the truth of the matter is that you do very
                                              well remember me and you are trying to justify your
                                              recent accusation with further insinuations.

                                              DB, I've had enough experience with you to know what kind
                                              of weasel you are -- I've told you that over and over.
                                              You might be fooling some of the folks on the other list
                                              with your one-sided posting, but you are not fooling me.


                                              > I honestly did not know that you were not an atheist
                                              > or mocking those with faith.

                                              Well, DB Willis, I honestly don't believe that. I just
                                              don't believe you have forgotten our many discussions so
                                              thoroughly and so quickly as all of that.

                                              And does anyone see the similarity here in DB Willis trying
                                              to justify calling me an atheist because he "didn't know" I
                                              was NOT one, and Jerry McDonald refusing to retract his
                                              claim that Nick Capaldi is an atheist until Capaldi writes
                                              to him personally and tells him otherwise?


                                              > You may think I SHOULD have known but frankly I don't
                                              > recall enough of your position on anything except AE
                                              > and did not take time to review anything you wrote to
                                              > try to figure that out.

                                              Here is the link to the list where you tracked us down,
                                              after you got mad and ran off from the discussion on the
                                              Maury_and_Baty list:
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SMCOFFEESHOP/message/12366

                                              That was *after* I told you that any more personal
                                              e-mails from you would be posted directly to the lists.


                                              > The fact that you sometimes refer to scripture would
                                              > not nec. mean you weren't doing the same as what Satan
                                              > did in Mt. 4.

                                              And the fact that you claim to be David Willis from
                                              Indiana doesn't mean that you are NOT a nightclub dancer
                                              named Giselle from down around New Orleans, either.

                                              But in general, negative evidence isn't very compelling,
                                              now is it?


                                              > Oh, that's right. I'm dissing Satan some by lumping him
                                              > in with atheists...he hasn't gotten quite THAT depraved
                                              > enough yet to say there is no God. He and his demons
                                              > believe what others including I think at least ONE on
                                              > this list are too foolish to believe.

                                              You're a real sweetheart, DB.


                                              > But I guess Satan MAY be rightly lumped with some others
                                              > who try to defend atheists like those on the Baty list
                                              > so often do.

                                              OK, here is a truth claim from DB Willis: that those on
                                              the Baty list often defend atheists.

                                              Back up your claim, Willis.

                                              I say you are making stuff up.

                                              Now produce the evidence for what you just said.


                                              > I was not intending to only be addressing you...or even
                                              > nec. addressing you at all directly when I said (as I
                                              > recall) "you atheists".

                                              As you "recall"?

                                              As I recall, it seemed pretty well pointed. And I don't
                                              really have to trust to my recollections about this, because
                                              there is the message right there on the list, #15313.


                                              > I do know that you sure seem defensive for those who
                                              > ARE atheists being called fools. Maybe I just figured
                                              > that the hit dog was the one was doing so much howling.

                                              OK -- first you "don't remember" and I am just flattering
                                              myself to think you should. Then, based on what you have
                                              read from me, or so you claim, you really couldn't tell
                                              whether I am an atheist or not. Then it has something to
                                              do with me signing my posts as the WWCL. Then there is
                                              the fact that Satan quoted Scripture. Then there is
                                              the way those on the Baty list "so often" defend atheists.
                                              And then I seem "defensive" about atheists being called fools.

                                              In all of this, DB Willis, you have not once stopped to
                                              take the blame yourself for your own false testimony --
                                              it's all my fault that you got the idea that I'm an
                                              atheist.

                                              I say BULL to all of that.


                                              > I apologize that my comments slandered you by lumping
                                              > you in with atheists if you really are not one.
                                              > However, I am not sure if you are a notch or two above
                                              > them or below them. Really.

                                              I do hope our fair readers are paying attention to
                                              this humble apology.

                                              As I have said in the past, young-earth creationists are
                                              their own worst enemy. All you have to do is keep them
                                              talking.


                                              > (And of COURSE I mean in your present state as I see it.

                                              As YOU see it? Why should I care how YOU see my "present
                                              state"? I am very well aware of how your kind see my
                                              present state -- and WHY you see it the way you do.


                                              > We all are mere sinners needing forgiveness by faith
                                              > and obedience to Christ and are not worth anything of
                                              > our own merit).

                                              While this is true, what DB Willis and his kind really
                                              mean by this is you must have faith in and obedience to
                                              what THEY say constitutes "faith and obedience to Christ" --
                                              in other words, become twofold the child of hell.

                                              They don't tell you this up front.


                                              > If I should have limited my "insults" (insults which
                                              > come directly from God's word) to Todd as being the
                                              > only one who is a fool here because of his atheism
                                              > while others are in a bad state for other reasons
                                              > including defending atheists and contradicting scripture,
                                              > then you have my apology for that error.

                                              Does anyone really see an "apology" in what DB Willis says
                                              here?

                                              Read it again. I've read it a few times and can't find
                                              the apology -- I see a hypothetical proposition, the
                                              antecedent of which does not appear to be true.

                                              What do you think, Robert?

                                              But anyway...

                                              Who has defended atheists, DB Willis?

                                              All I'm trying to do is defend the truth, and part of that
                                              truth is that you don't have any business going around and
                                              calling people fools based on your own apparently misguided
                                              understanding of the Bible.

                                              And who has contradicted Scripture?

                                              It seems to me that it is you, and some others with your
                                              same hateful attitude, who are misusing the Scriptures.

                                              Now start digging through the archives here and come
                                              up with that evidence that the ones on this list "so
                                              often defend atheists".

                                              I DO NOT mean agreeing with the atheist on matters of
                                              empirical fact, such as the Earth orbiting the Sun or
                                              the Universe being billions of years old, "taking the
                                              side of the atheist against faithful brothers in Christ"
                                              who are lying up one side and down the other -- I mean
                                              show the evidence that we defend atheists.


                                              > Also, I am pretty sure that your idea of what is a
                                              > theist and mine may differ.

                                              We've already had this discussion in the course of the
                                              "Earth Centered Universe" argument. Once I pointed out
                                              that the "atheist cosmologist" you were quoting was a
                                              well known theist (George Ellis) you started trying to
                                              qualify what "theist" meant and saying that he was
                                              still using "atheistic" philosophy.


                                              > For you to invent some wacky distinction between an
                                              > atheist and someone who "says in his heart there is no
                                              > God"...as IF the atheist is not as bad...is good enough
                                              > reason for me to think your threshold for thinking someone
                                              > is really an atheist is too high. (Or maybe it would be
                                              > "too low.") I frankly don't even want to try to understand
                                              > the silly distinction you have invented in your head on
                                              > that one.

                                              I'm not the one who invented it.

                                              Atheists don't have a code-book and set of bylaws that they
                                              all have to go by to be in the Atheist Club, nor do they all
                                              share the same philosophy or the same approach to epistemology --
                                              they are people with different backgrounds, different
                                              personalities, and different views as to what qualifies as
                                              "knowledge" and "evidence".

                                              I won't bother you with all the nuances of logic that may
                                              come into play when you are arguing for the existence of
                                              God with various brands of non-believers, but in a lot of ways
                                              a dyed-in-the-wool agnostic may be harder to reason with than
                                              certain atheistic thinkers.

                                              But it is wrong for you to make up your own definition of
                                              "atheist" and try to apply that across the board to everyone
                                              who has a lack of faith.


                                              > I am not going to rehash the YE/AE discussion.

                                              Didn't figure you would -- not around here, anyway.


                                              > If you enjoy exchanges with YE's from time to time and
                                              > want more of that, then try to be less nasty next time
                                              > you get the chance when a YE visits your site.

                                              Not too many YECs drop by here, but that doesn't have anything
                                              to do with anyone here being "nasty" to them. It's because
                                              they can't defend their bogus science and their narrow-minded
                                              theology in an open, public forum, and they very well know
                                              that -- just as you know it, too, DB Willis.

                                              YECs live in a fantasy world that cannot withstand the light
                                              of day and rational discussion, as you yourself have so
                                              amply demonstrated. That isn't being nasty, DB. That's
                                              just reality.


                                              > I have said about all I want to say on Baty's list this
                                              > time around.

                                              Not so fast. You need to be presenting the evidence
                                              for that claim of yours.


                                              > I do respect Baty for allowing my posts...which shows
                                              > character that other list owners sometimes don't show.

                                              We do like everything to be out in the open around here.


                                              > However, in other ways, I don't care much for the tactics
                                              > you guys permit yourselves here.

                                              Of course you don't. Staying on topic and presenting
                                              evidence for your claims is not your strong suit. You
                                              prefer to slip around with personal e-mails labelled
                                              "private" and posting one-sided discussions to other
                                              lists.


                                              > Baty acts like he is not just a participant in a discussion
                                              > but a self-appointed judge and jury as well on who does or
                                              > doesn't need to repent or be "shamed".

                                              The demonstration of those who refuse to repent -- those
                                              who have no shame -- is instructive as well.


                                              > And bottom line is that I figure I would risk disobeying
                                              > Christ's command about casting pearls if I take much more
                                              > time with you guys here.

                                              You don't have any pearls, which is exactly what I told you
                                              the last time you used that transparent excuse. Neither do
                                              you have any reason for calling anybody here "swine". You're
                                              just another young-earth creationist who can't defend your
                                              theology.


                                              > All atheists are indeed fools. But they are not the only
                                              > fools.
                                              >
                                              > DW

                                              So I've heard. Now get busy producing the evidence
                                              for your claim that "the Baty list so often defends
                                              atheists".



                                              Rick Hartzog
                                              Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism


                                              -----------------------------------------
                                            • Robert Baty
                                              Rick, In answer to your question to me, I saw an argument from DBWillis which he appears to have designed specifically to NOT apologize ! Sincerely, Robert
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                                Rick,

                                                In answer to your question to me, I saw an argument from DBWillis which he appears to have designed specifically to NOT "apologize"!

                                                Sincerely,
                                                Robert Baty



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • w_w_c_l
                                                ... After three months of unsuccessfully trying to bamboozle us with such YEC gems as the Laetoli footprints are from modern humans claim, the eye proteins
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                                  I had written (in part):

                                                  >> These Psalms are not meant for you to use in insulting
                                                  >> the people who need to come to the Lord. And they sure
                                                  >> aren't meant to be something you throw out at someone
                                                  >> in the place of a rational answer when they point out
                                                  >> the factual errors in your arguments.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> You tell the atheist -- who might happen to know a little
                                                  >> something about science -- that he has to believe the
                                                  >> Earth is only a few thousand years old to be a good
                                                  >> Christian, and then you show him some of your bogus
                                                  >> young-earth "scientific evidence" and he tells you that
                                                  >> your evidence is nonsense, and so you call him a fool.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> The devil had to stay up late one night to come up
                                                  >> with that tactic.

                                                  DB Willis now replies (in relevant parts):


                                                  > I don't use Ps. 14:1 to try to support my
                                                  > YE view at all. I would say the
                                                  > same about the passage if I were AE.
                                                  >
                                                  > >>You tell the atheist -- who might happen to know a little
                                                  > something about science -- that he has to believe the
                                                  > Earth is only a few thousand years old to be a good
                                                  > Christian, and then you show him some of your bogus
                                                  > young-earth "scientific evidence" and he tells you that
                                                  > your evidence is nonsense, and so you call him a fool.
                                                  >
                                                  > The devil had to stay up late one night to come up
                                                  > with that tactic.>>
                                                  >
                                                  > How late did he stay up with you to convince you to
                                                  > falsely accuse me of that? Do you have a regularly
                                                  > scheduled appointment each night?

                                                  > I agree that if someone tried to say, "this man is
                                                  > an atheist and therefore for that reason alone he
                                                  > must be wrong on this point"....he would be wrong
                                                  > to do that.

                                                  > Nobody I know of does that.

                                                  > You are bashing a straw man. Sounds
                                                  > like YOU are the one using ad hominems.

                                                  > I totally agree that if all I said was "he is
                                                  > an atheist, atheists are fools so they must be
                                                  > wrong on this scientific point for that reason
                                                  > alone"...I have not given a good reason to him.

                                                  > So can we move on? The Bible still says
                                                  > he is a fool. Saying he is a fool does not
                                                  > of itself mean that each argument he uses has
                                                  > no "smart science" in it. It is his conclusion
                                                  > that makes him a fool.


                                                  After three months of unsuccessfully trying to bamboozle us
                                                  with such YEC gems as the "Laetoli footprints are from
                                                  modern humans" claim, the "eye proteins from shrews and
                                                  elephants are too similar" claim, the old "not enough salt
                                                  in the sea" argument, Keith Sisman's stupid "moon recession"
                                                  claim, the "too much helium in zircons" claim, the "Earth is
                                                  at the center of the Universe" claim, and his forlorn attempt
                                                  at defending the theologically and empirically bankrupt
                                                  "apparent age" excuse, DB Willis wrote:

                                                  from:
                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SMCOFFEESHOP/message/13526

                                                  (December 14, 2006)

                                                  | Subject: Three Fools
                                                  |
                                                  |
                                                  | The fool has said in his heart there is no God.
                                                  |
                                                  | Another fool has said in his heart God cannot
                                                  | create mature things instantly.
                                                  |
                                                  | Another fool has said in his heart that there is
                                                  | some reason that God WOULD not create mature things
                                                  | instantly.
                                                  |
                                                  | They are ALL FOOLS.
                                                  |
                                                  | DW

                                                  --------------------------------------------------

                                                  Anybody want to take a stab at guessing who those three
                                                  "fools" are that DB Willis is talking about here?



                                                  Rick Hartzog
                                                  Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism
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