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Todd Greene vs Jerry McDonald

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  • tinroad6g
    Todd has been challenged in the debunkingevolutionism group by Jerry McDonald to discuss the issue of the Earth s age. If accepted-no comments or posts (about
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 6, 2008
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      Todd has been challenged in the debunkingevolutionism group by Jerry
      McDonald to discuss the issue of the Earth's age.

      If accepted-no comments or posts (about their discussion)-other than
      Todd's and Jerry's will be approved--any that slip by will be deleted-
      this also includes indirect posts about what they are discussing
    • Todd S. Greene
      ... Jerry s challenge is utterly bogus. The man is a complete liar. He won t be wasting my time any more. Furthermore, I would never be stupid enough to engage
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 7, 2008
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        --- In Maury_and_Baty, David Goldsmith ("flubber", "newbie",
        "tinroad6g", etc., etc.) wrote (post #14813):
        > Todd has been challenged in the debunkingevolutionism group
        > by Jerry McDonald to discuss the issue of the Earth's age.
        >
        > If accepted-no comments or posts (about their discussion)-other
        > than Todd's and Jerry's will be approved--any that slip by will
        > be deleted- this also includes indirect posts about what they
        > are discussing.

        Jerry's challenge is utterly bogus. The man is a complete liar. He
        won't be wasting my time any more. Furthermore, I would never be
        stupid enough to engage in discussion in a group run by the perversely
        deceitful David Goldsmith.

        - Todd Greene
      • rlbaty50
        ... I know the feeling, but I ve got a little more time on my hands and Jerry McDonald and I have a lot to work out, if he ll ever man-up to his
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 7, 2008
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          Todd, you wrote to Goldsmith (aka tinroad6g), in part:

          > Jerry's challenge is utterly bogus.

          > The man is a complete liar.

          > He won't be wasting my time any more.

          I know the feeling, but I've got a little more time on my hands and
          Jerry McDonald and I have a lot to work out, if he'll ever "man-up" to
          his responsibilities.

          Jerry has posted his propositions, but we already know from recent
          experience that Jerry has trouble negotiating in good faith the
          legitimate details necessary to pull off a formal, for the record
          debate on the scientific evidence of age.

          I also note that Jerry, though he obviously had the opportunity to do
          so on the DebunkingEvolutionism list, didn't say a word about his July
          event in Fort Collins; no advertising reference and no venue
          announcement.

          Does anyone out there have any details regarding Jerry McDonald's
          promised Fort Collins event for July 2008?

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty
        • Todd S. Greene
          I m reversing myself. I have created a new discussion group online: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YoungEarthCreationism Later on I will open up the group to
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 10, 2008
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            I'm reversing myself. I have created a new discussion group online:

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YoungEarthCreationism

            Later on I will open up the group to open membership. However,
            intially, and until we are done, the group will have only two members:
            Jerry McDonald and myself. This is the for the purpose of
            accommodating Jerry McDonald's request that no one be allowed to
            participate in the discussion between him and me on the antiquity of
            the earth.

            By the way, I didn't mention this in my previous post on this, but due
            to David Goldsmith's misstatement, here I reiterate, for the umpteenth
            time, the clarification that this debate is NOT about the earth's age.
            In regard to young earth creationism the issue is NOT about the
            earth's age. In regard to young earth creationism the issue is whether
            or not the earth has been in existence significantly longer than the
            young earth creationist religious belief that the Earth was created
            about 6,000 years ago.

            Analogously, if two people were having an argument about whether or
            not a particular road they were driving on was only about 6 miles
            long, or longer, then even if the person arguing that the road is
            longer than 6 miles doesn't even have a clue how long the road is, as
            long as he can establish that the road is at least, say, 14 miles
            long, then he has disproved the contention that the road is only about
            6 miles long.

            In the same way, relevant information from geological science that
            shows that the earth has been in existence at least, say, 100,000 (one
            hundred thousand) years proves that young earth creationism is wrong,
            regardless of how old the earth is. I mention this particularly
            because young earth creationists frequently try to change the subject
            to a discussion about the subject of how geologists have determined
            the age of the earth. But that is not what the discussion is about.
            The discussion is about young earth creationism's notion that the
            earth didn't exist more than about 6,000 years ago being known to be
            wrong by what we have learned about the earth through scientific
            examination of the earth.

            Jerry McDonald is requested to join the new "YoungEarthCreationism"
            group, per his "challenge" to me (which is, by the way, actually MY
            challenge to him I made several months ago, which he previously ran
            away from because he was determined to change the subject and debate
            evolution instead of the antiquity of the earth and the antiquity of
            the universe; he also previously stated that he refused to engage in
            such debate as a written debate but would only do it as an oral
            debate, with me traveling to Missouri where he lives, which I agreed
            to do; apparently, and I emphasize *apparently*, he is now willing to
            engage in this debate in a written format).

            - Todd Greene

            cc: Jerry McDonald


            --- In Maury_and_Baty, Todd Greene wrote:
            > --- In Maury_and_Baty, David Goldsmith ("flubber", "newbie",
            > "tinroad6g", etc., etc.) wrote (post #14813):
            >> Todd has been challenged in the debunkingevolutionism group
            >> by Jerry McDonald to discuss the issue of the Earth's age.
            >>
            >> If accepted-no comments or posts (about their discussion)-other
            >> than Todd's and Jerry's will be approved--any that slip by will
            >> be deleted- this also includes indirect posts about what they
            >> are discussing.
            >
            > Jerry's challenge is utterly bogus. The man is a complete liar.
            > He won't be wasting my time any more. Furthermore, I would
            > never be stupid enough to engage in discussion in a group run
            > by the perversely deceitful David Goldsmith.
            >
            > - Todd Greene
          • Robert Baty
            ... The address for that new group is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YoungEarthCreationism I hope that Jerry takes you up on the offer and proceeds in good
            Message 5 of 5 , Jun 10, 2008
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              Todd, you wrote, in part:

              > Jerry McDonald is requested to
              > join the new "YoungEarthCreationism"
              > group...

              The address for that new group is:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YoungEarthCreationism

              I hope that Jerry takes you up on the offer and proceeds in good faith to work on the discussion there regarding the evidence of age as it relates to possibly falsifying the "young-earth" position that "nothing is more than a few thousand years old".

              Todd, your proposal appears to be a reasonable, good faith compromise in order to further work towards producing the proposed discussion.

              As you have indicated, the new list will allow only for you and Jerry to proceed in producing the proposed discussion.

              As I asked in a recent post here, "why"...

              Why wouldn't Jerry McDonald accept your offer if he has a serious interest in scientifically testing, against your opposition, his fundamental claim that "nothing is more than a few thousand years old"??

              Sincerely,
              Robert Baty

              ------------Original Message---------------

              To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
              From: Todd S. Greene
              Subject: Re: Todd Greene vs Jerry McDonald
              Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 5:03 PM

              I'm reversing myself. I have created a new discussion group online:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YoungEarthCreationism

              Later on I will open up the group to open membership. However,
              intially, and until we are done, the group will have only two members:
              Jerry McDonald and myself. This is the for the purpose of
              accommodating Jerry McDonald's request that no one be allowed to
              participate in the discussion between him and me on the antiquity of
              the earth.

              By the way, I didn't mention this in my previous post on this, but due
              to David Goldsmith's misstatement, here I reiterate, for the umpteenth
              time, the clarification that this debate is NOT about the earth's age.
              In regard to young earth creationism the issue is NOT about the
              earth's age. In regard to young earth creationism the issue is whether
              or not the earth has been in existence significantly longer than the
              young earth creationist religious belief that the Earth was created
              about 6,000 years ago.

              Analogously, if two people were having an argument about whether or
              not a particular road they were driving on was only about 6 miles
              long, or longer, then even if the person arguing that the road is
              longer than 6 miles doesn't even have a clue how long the road is, as
              long as he can establish that the road is at least, say, 14 miles
              long, then he has disproved the contention that the road is only about
              6 miles long.

              In the same way, relevant information from geological science that
              shows that the earth has been in existence at least, say, 100,000 (one
              hundred thousand) years proves that young earth creationism is wrong,
              regardless of how old the earth is. I mention this particularly
              because young earth creationists frequently try to change the subject
              to a discussion about the subject of how geologists have determined
              the age of the earth. But that is not what the discussion is about.
              The discussion is about young earth creationism's notion that the
              earth didn't exist more than about 6,000 years ago being known to be
              wrong by what we have learned about the earth through scientific
              examination of the earth.

              Jerry McDonald is requested to join the new "YoungEarthCreationism"
              group, per his "challenge" to me (which is, by the way, actually MY
              challenge to him I made several months ago, which he previously ran
              away from because he was determined to change the subject and debate
              evolution instead of the antiquity of the earth and the antiquity of
              the universe; he also previously stated that he refused to engage in
              such debate as a written debate but would only do it as an oral
              debate, with me traveling to Missouri where he lives, which I agreed
              to do; apparently, and I emphasize *apparently*, he is now willing to
              engage in this debate in a written format).

              - Todd Greene

              cc: Jerry McDonald

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