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Re: The McDonald-Baty Debate Agreement

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  • Robert Baty
    Jerry McDonald appears content to compound his problems to be addressed before he qualifies himself to further discuss anything with me. ... Those who wish to
    Message 1 of 2 , May 2, 2008
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      Jerry McDonald appears content to compound his problems to be addressed before he qualifies himself to further discuss anything with me.

      Jerry McDonald writes, in relevant part, regarding his "agreement" contained in the attached recently posted message:

      > Robert, the agreement that I
      > sent you this morning is not
      > negotiable. I am telling you
      > that these are things that we
      > have already agreed upon
      > (with the exception of the
      > dates) and this is what I will
      > be going by.

      Those who wish to "dig into the details" are welcome to review the post at the following link as to what issues had been considered agreed upon as of the last update:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/14540

      Close scrutiny should convince reasonable minds that Jerry McDonald's claim above is simply false.

      Had the negotiations, and by implication the debate, not been terminated by Jerry McDonald, there were a few other important issues that needed to be resolved before we would have been ready for a formal agreement regarding the debate.

      Jerry McDonald again fails to qualify himself for any further discussions, negotiations with me.

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      ------Jerry McDonald's Message--------

      From: Jerry McDonald
      Sent: Friday, May 2, 2008 8:01 AM
      To: Challenge2, Baty List
      Subject: The McDonald-Baty Debate Agreement

      The McDonald-Baty Debate

      Proposition Number One

      If the Bible is God’s word (the text) and says anything, and that is interpreted by some to mean everything began in six, literal, as we commonly know them, 24-hour days occurring less than 10,000 thousand years ago, and there is evidence that some thing is actually much older than 10,000 thousand years, then the interpretation of the text by some is wrong.
      Affirm: Robert Baty
      Deny: Jerry McDonald
      Proposition Number Two

      If Robert Baty agreed to moderate for Todd Greene in the McDonald- Greene debate on the antiquity of the universe (in which Greene is an atheist and Jerry McDonald is a Christian), then Robert Baty is an atheist.
      Affirm: Jerry McDonald
      Deny: Robert Baty

      1. The negotiations are to be published, at a minimum, on this, the Maury_and_Baty YAHOO! discussion list.

      2. In lieu of personal appearances, Jerry McDonald explicitly granted permission to Robert Baty to post his, Jerry McDonald's, private messages regarding the negotiations for the Belle, MO/Fort Collins debate to the Maury_and_Baty list. Jerry McDonald has since decided to post directly to the Maury_and_Baty list.

      3. Robert Baty is ready, willing and able to meet Jerry McDonald in a formal, oral, public debate in the Belle, MO or Fort Collins CO vicinity, contingent upon the successful completion of the negotiations necessary to produce such a debate.

      4. The debate is to be held at a facililty arranged for by Jerry McDonald at no cost to Robert Baty; either at Belle, MO or in or around Fort Collins, CO.

      5. Each participant is to bear his own costs related to attendance at the debate should it be held in or around Fort Collins, CO.

      6. Presently, Jerry McDonald has agreed that the debate will beheld in or around Fort Collins, CO.

      7. The following will be Robert Baty's proposition to affirm and for Jerry McDonald to deny:

      If the Bible is God's word (the text) and says anything, and that is interpreted by some to mean everything began in six, literal, as we commonly know them, 24-hour days occurring less than 10,000 thousand years ago, and there is evidence that some thing is actually much older than 10,000 thousand years, then the interpretation of the text by some is wrong.

      8. Robert Baty's proposition will be the first proposition to be discussed.

      9. The following will be Jerry McDonald's proposition to affirm and for Robert Baty to deny:

      If Robert Baty agreed to moderate for Todd Greene in the McDonald- Greene debate on the antiquity of the universe (in which Greene is an atheist and Jerry McDonald is a Christian), then Robert Baty is an atheist.

      10. There will be three 20 minute speeches each night for each participant.

      11. There will be a five minute break between the first affirmative and the first negative speech.

      12. There will be a five minute break between the first negative and the second affirmative speech.

      13. There will be a fifteen minute break between the second affirmative and the second negative speech.

      14. There will be a five minute break between the second negative and the third affirmative speech.

      15. There will be a five minute break between the third affirmative and the third negative speech.

      16. The affirmant will have a five minute summary on the last night of his proposition.

      17. No new material is to be allowed in after the second negative speech each evening.

      18. Twenty minutes will be set aside for questions from the audience after the final speech of each evening. The questions must be in writing and turned in to the moderators during the fifteen minute break each night.

      19. The dates of the debate will be July 7,8, 10,11, 2008. Each evening’s session will begin at 7:00 and end at 10:00.

      20. Each of the participants will be allowed to advertise the debate as they see fit.

      21. Jerry McDonald thinks Robert Baty is negotiating in bad faith, and Robert Baty thinks Jerry McDonald is negotiating in bad faith.

      22. Each speaker will be allowed five written questions to be given to the opposite speaker 30 minutes before the session begins each evening. The speakers are to respond to these questions in their first speech of each evening.

      23. The speakers will be free to prosecute their affirmative and negative positions, as reflected in the propositions for debate, according to the dictates of their own conscience.

      24. The debate may be video taped and/or audio taped by both participants or anyone whom they appoint to such a task. Either side may publish this debate on their websites.

      25. Hedge's rules will NOT be binding upon Robert Baty as a standard of conduct in the debate. However, Jerry McDonald will use them. What follows is a summary of those rules:

      Rule 1st. The terms in which the question in debate is expressed and the precise point at issue, should be so clearly defined that there can be no misunderstanding respecting them.

      Rule 2nd. The parties should mutually consider each other as standing on a footing of equality in respect to the subject in debate, each should regard the other as possessing equal talents, knowledge and desire for truth, with himself and that it is possible therefore that he may be in the wrong and his adversary in the right.

      Rule 3rd. All expressions which are unmeaning, or without effect, in regard to the subject in debate, should be strictly avoided. All expressions may be considered unmeaning which contribute nothing to the proof in question, such as desultory remarks, and declamatory expressions, all technical ambiguities and equivocal expressions.

      Rule 4th. Personal reflections on an adversary should in no instance be indulged in. Whatever his private character, his follies are not to be named, nor alluded to in controversy. Personal reflections are not only destitute of effect in respect to the question in discussion, but are productive of real evil

      Rule 5th. No one has a right to accuse his adversary with indirect motives.

      Rule 6th. The consequences of any doctrine are not to be charged on him who maintains it, unless he expressly avows them.

      Rule 7th. As truth and not victory is the professed object of controversy, whatever proofs may be on either side should be examined with fairness and candor, and any attempt to ensnare an adversary by arts or sophistry, or to lessen the force of his reasoning by wit, caviling, or ridicule, is a violation of the rules of honorable discourse.

      26. For purposes of Jerry McDonald's proposition, the term "atheist" will mean one who does not believe in the God of the Bible.

      Agreed: Jerry McDonald May 2, 2008 9:04 a.m.
      Agreed: Robert Baty

      In Christ Jesus
      Jerry D. McDonald

      -----------------------------------
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