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Welcome to Maury_and_Baty, diffmark!

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  • w_w_c_l
    Thanks for joining us! diffmark was over on another list trying to coax the resident troll out from under the bridge with little bits of goat meat, but
    Message 1 of 3 , Apr 6, 2008
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      Thanks for joining us!

      diffmark was over on another list trying to coax
      the resident troll out from under the bridge with
      little bits of goat meat, but b15769140 was having
      none of that!

      diffmark is a bona fide geologist who has actually
      studied the Karoo formation of South Africa, which
      young-earth creationists "interpret" as having been
      caused by a "global flood" a few thousand years ago.

      diffmark says, "No way." He tried very patiently to
      explain to b15769140 a few of the features of the
      Karoo that absolutely preclude it being the result of
      a global flood a few thousand years ago, but you know
      how thick young-earthers can be.

      As Don DeLong told Todd:

      | Mr. Greene,
      |
      | I couldn't care less how many people have said it
      | or what college education those speaking may or
      | may not have. "Speciation" (forming of new species)
      | is not a fact (outside of the creation event
      | chronicalled [sic!] in Genesis chapters 1 & 2),
      | whether scientific or real.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/christianevidences/message/13

      So, anyway, between dinosrus72 and diffmark we have
      a couple of good resources for information in the areas
      of paleontology and geology -- hopefully we'll be able
      to put them to work!

      diffmark, you are now on unmoderated status so you can
      post whenever you feel like it.

      Anything you guys have written on other lists that is
      available only to the members of those lists, that you
      want to make publicly accessable, feel free to paste it
      on over here where it can be part of "the public record".

      And, again, thanks for joining!



      Rick Hartzog
      Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism
    • diffmark
      ... Hi Rick, and the group Thanks for the welcome - I look forward to being able to contribute from time to time - anything to promote the cause of reason and
      Message 2 of 3 , Apr 7, 2008
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        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "w_w_c_l" <w_w_c_l@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks for joining us!
        >
        > diffmark was over on another list trying to coax
        > the resident troll out from under the bridge with
        > little bits of goat meat, but b15769140 was having
        > none of that!
        >
        > diffmark is a bona fide geologist who has actually
        > studied the Karoo formation of South Africa, which
        > young-earth creationists "interpret" as having been
        > caused by a "global flood" a few thousand years ago.
        >
        > diffmark says, "No way." He tried very patiently to
        > explain to b15769140 a few of the features of the
        > Karoo that absolutely preclude it being the result of
        > a global flood a few thousand years ago, but you know
        > how thick young-earthers can be.
        >
        > As Don DeLong told Todd:
        >
        > | Mr. Greene,
        > |
        > | I couldn't care less how many people have said it
        > | or what college education those speaking may or
        > | may not have. "Speciation" (forming of new species)
        > | is not a fact (outside of the creation event
        > | chronicalled [sic!] in Genesis chapters 1 & 2),
        > | whether scientific or real.
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/christianevidences/message/13
        >
        > So, anyway, between dinosrus72 and diffmark we have
        > a couple of good resources for information in the areas
        > of paleontology and geology -- hopefully we'll be able
        > to put them to work!
        >
        > diffmark, you are now on unmoderated status so you can
        > post whenever you feel like it.
        >
        > Anything you guys have written on other lists that is
        > available only to the members of those lists, that you
        > want to make publicly accessable, feel free to paste it
        > on over here where it can be part of "the public record".
        >
        > And, again, thanks for joining!
        >

        Hi Rick, and the group

        Thanks for the welcome - I look forward to being able to contribute
        from time to time - anything to promote the cause of reason and
        intelligent interpretation of the evidence!

        Fred
      • Todd S. Greene
        ... Note that Don - a young earth creationist - was responding to the ... Notice that the Wieland quote shows three different things: (1) Young earth
        Message 3 of 3 , Apr 7, 2008
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          --- In Maury_and_Baty, Rick Hartzog wrote (post #14301):
          |[snip]

          > As Don DeLong told Todd:
          >
          > | Mr. Greene,
          > |
          > | I couldn't care less how many people have said it
          > | or what college education those speaking may or
          > | may not have. "Speciation" (forming of new species)
          > | is not a fact (outside of the creation event
          > | chronicalled [sic!] in Genesis chapters 1 & 2),
          > | whether scientific or real.
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/christianevidences/message/13

          Note that Don - a young earth creationist - was responding to the
          following that I had posted to his group:

          --- In christianevidences, Todd Greene wrote:
          | In August 1997 (i.e., almost 10 years ago), the young earth
          | creationist Carl Wieland of the Answers in Genesis group (a
          | YEC organization) wrote the following:
          |
          || "Poorly-informed anti-creationist scoffers occasionally
          || think they will 'floor' creation apologists with examples
          || of 'new species forming' in nature. They are often
          || surprised at the reaction they get from the
          || better-informed creationists, namely that the creation
          || model depends heavily on speciation."
          |
          | [ http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v11/i2/speciation.asp ]
          |
          | Biologists know, paleontologists know, those who take
          | science seriously and are aware of these areas of science
          | know, theistic evolutionists know, many old earth
          | creationists know, and even many young earth creationists
          | know (as proved with the quotation example), that
          | evolution (new species forming, or "speciation") is not
          | only possible, but it is a scientific fact.
          |[snip]

          Notice that the Wieland quote shows three different things:

          (1) Young earth creationists directly contradict each other on this point.

          (2) Young earth creationists love to disparage creationist critics
          with false insinuations. In this particular case, Wieland is falsely
          pretending that "anti-creationist scoffers" are somehow misinformed
          that young earth creationists are scientifically illiterate in not
          accepting the biological fact of speciation. Of course, we're not
          misinformed at all. It is a fact that most young earth creationists
          refuse to accept the fact of speciation - and Don DeLong's comments
          are a perfect example of the defiance-in-ignorance we're dealing with.
          Second, we are well aware of the fact that young earth creationists
          directly contradict each other on numerous specific young earth
          creationist arguments. The contradiction between Wieland and DeLong is
          a case in point. In this particular case, with respect to speciation,
          we *are* surprised when we encounter a young earth creationist who is
          not so ignorant precisely because the vast majority of young earth
          creationists that we encounter are. This isn't because us YEC scoffers
          are ignorant of young earth creationists, because we know there are
          some of them who know acknowledge a little bit more about scientific
          discoveries about the real world than others, it's simply because it
          doesn't happen that often. In particular, I'm on the critics who is
          well aware of young earth creationists contradicting each other on
          this point - which is why I keep this Wieland quote handy - because
          I'm familiar with the young earth creationist argument about "kinds"
          (aka, "baramins").

          (3) With his term "better-informed creationists," Wieland implicitly
          acknowledges that a creationist who doesn't know about speciation is a
          creationist who is poorly informed, or, as I like to forthrightly put
          it, ignorant of the relevant science. We have to thank Wieland for his
          implicit acknowledgment of this, and thus his implicit acknowledgment
          that most young earth creationists are ignorant that speciation is a
          biological fact.

          - Todd Greene
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