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Re: Yet another Baptist historian Keith Sisman has never heard of?

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  • James A. Wyly
    Rick, I want to echo what Robert Baty said below and express my appreciation of your efforts as well. You must sometimes feel like a voice crying in the
    Message 1 of 58 , Feb 8, 2008
      Rick,

      I want to echo what Robert Baty said below and express my
      appreciation of your efforts as well. You must sometimes feel like a
      voice crying in the wilderness, to coin a phrase.

      It astounds me that Keith Sisman would so blatantly publish not only
      plagiarized "history", but altered, plagiarized history.

      So far as the pack defending him on ContendingFTF and CFTF, I've
      given up on them. Shockingly and sadly, most of them are ministers.
      Their rallying around a proven plagiarist astounds me. My solace is
      they seem to be few in number with very small congregations. May it
      ever be so.

      Anyway, I do appreciate your efforts.


      Jim Wyly


      --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@...> wrote:
      >
      > Rick,
      >
      > I again want to express my appreciation for your time, talent and
      > interest in developing this important public issue and keeping it
      > before our audience.
      >
      > This forum is open to Keith and I would like to have him "come out"
      > and openly, honestly deal with the charges you have raised against
      him.
      >
      > It would be a good thing!
      >
      > For the time being, it looks like your charges are serious,
      > substantive, and sustainable/sustained.
      >
      > The good brethren should be concerned and should be about dealing
      with
      > the problem Keith Sisman has apparently created with his less than
      > scholarly works.
      >
      > Sincerely,
      > Robert Baty
      >
      >
      > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "w_w_c_l" <w_w_c_l@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I am reposting this to "keep it before the audience" as
      > > Bales suggests.
      > >
      > > The thread is getting pretty long, so to see the other
      > > messages in which Keith Sisman's plagiarism and erroneous
      > > historical claims have been documented, click on the
      > > "First" link in the box of threaded messages below this
      > > message.
      > >
      > >
      > > Re: Yet another Baptist historian Keith Sisman has never heard of?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I had written:
      > >
      > > > While going through documenting the instances of plagiarism
      > > > on Keith Sisman's "Traces of the Kingdom" page about Henry
      > > > Denne (a good bit of it comes straight from Chapter 9 of
      > > > J.M. Cramp's *Baptist History*, which Sisman denies he has
      > > > ever heard of)...
      > >
      > > Here is the link to Chapter 9 of Cramp's book:
      > > http://www.reformedreader.org/history/cramp/s06ch09.htm
      > >
      > > Actually, there is so much on Sisman's page about Henry Denne
      > > that Sisman took from Cramp's *Baptist History* that there
      > > isn't much need of me going to all the trouble of pointing
      > > out each place where the plagiarism occurs. All anyone has
      > > to do is compare the two documents. Sisman either paraphrases
      > > or quotes word-for-word from Cramp throughout his article,
      > > gives no reference, and then he has the gall to say he never
      > > heard of Cramp until I brought it up.
      > >
      > > But his material on Henry Denne is not *entirely* from Cramp.
      > >
      > > I suppose Keith Sisman will also try claiming he has never
      > > heard of John Dowse, former pastor of Monksthorpe Baptist
      > > Church, who in 1910 wrote:
      > >
      > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
      > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
      > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
      > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
      > > | adopt Baptist views after reading literature confiscated
      > > | from Baptist soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
      > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
      > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
      > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
      > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
      > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
      > > | indebted for its establishment.
      > >
      > > On Keith Sisman's page about Henry Denne we see the exact same
      > > text, except Sisman has removed the word "Baptist":
      > >
      > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
      > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
      > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
      > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
      > > | adopt Christian views after reading literature confiscated
      > > | from soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
      > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
      > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
      > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
      > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
      > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
      > > | indebted for its establishment.
      > >
      > > See that? Lucy Hutchinson and her husband came to adopt
      > > *Baptist* views, according to Dowse, but according to Sisman
      > > they came to adopt *Christian* views. According to Dowse,
      > > literature was confiscated from *Baptist* soldiers.
      > >
      > > Dowse continues:
      > >
      > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
      > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
      > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
      > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
      > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
      > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
      > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
      > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
      > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
      > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the Baptist
      > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
      > >
      > > And Sisman follows right along:
      > >
      > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
      > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
      > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
      > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
      > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
      > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
      > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
      > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
      > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
      > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the
      > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
      > >
      > > Notice how Sisman has removed the reference to Crosby being
      > > a "Baptist" historian? Notice how Sisman, rather than doing
      > > his research at Cambridge University Library or the British
      > > Library as he often claims, has evidently just pasted these
      > > paragraphs off the internet, including the typographical error
      > > of misspelling "gaol"?
      > >
      > > Dowse continues:
      > >
      > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
      > > | the imprisonment of several other Baptists. Nevertheless,
      > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
      > > | Baptist churches in the area.
      > >
      > > But what does Sisman say? Again, he removes the word "Baptist"
      > > and replaces it with "Christian" and "church of Christ":
      > >
      > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
      > > | the imprisonment of several other Christians. Nevertheless,
      > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
      > > | churches of Christ in the area.
      > >
      > >
      > > This sort of thing is inexcusable in scholastic writing.
      > >
      > > It is bad enough that Sisman, rather than doing his own
      > > work just rips it off from others, but copying someone
      > > else's work word-for-word and altering it just enough to
      > > suit your own thesis is dishonesty on a whole other level.
      > > And to engage in this kind of behavior and then deny that
      > > you have ever heard of these authors from whose works you
      > > have stolen is, to right-thinking people, simply
      > > inconceivable.
      > >
      > > How do you deal with someone who will do stuff like this,
      > > someone who, when confronted with the evidence, will look
      > > you dead in the eye and lie about it, while the protective
      > > circle of David P. Brown's "Contending For The Faith"
      > > buddyhood closes around him and begins attacking you for
      > > daring to question the integrity of one of their
      > > lectureship hosts?
      > >
      > > Brown and Co. must really love that trip to England
      > > each year!
      > >
      > > But, I'm sure we'll think of something...
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Rick Hartzog
      > > Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism
      > >
      > >
      > > Here are the relevant excerpts; the original text from
      > > Dowse followed by the altered text as it appears on
      > > Sisman's webpage:
      > > -----------------------------------------------
      > >
      > >
      > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
      > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
      > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
      > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
      > > | adopt Baptist views after reading literature confiscated
      > > | from Baptist soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
      > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
      > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
      > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
      > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
      > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
      > > | indebted for its establishment.
      > > |
      > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
      > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
      > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
      > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
      > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
      > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
      > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
      > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
      > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
      > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the Baptist
      > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
      > > |
      > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
      > > | the imprisonment of several other Baptists. Nevertheless,
      > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
      > > | Baptist churches in the area.
      > >
      > > from: "The History of Monksthorpe and Burgh," (1910),
      > > by John Dowse, former pastor of Monksthorpe Baptist Church:
      > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bh.keyworth/History.htm
      > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bh.keyworth/john_dowse.htm
      > >
      > >
      > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
      > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
      > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
      > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
      > > | adopt Christian views after reading literature confiscated
      > > | from soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
      > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
      > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
      > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
      > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
      > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
      > > | indebted for its establishment. In 1645 John Tombes wrote
      > > | to several churches of Christ in America, which is the next
      > > | page.
      > > |
      > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
      > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
      > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
      > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
      > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
      > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
      > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
      > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
      > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
      > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the
      > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
      > > |
      > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
      > > | the imprisonment of several other Christians. Nevertheless,
      > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
      > > | churches of Christ in the area.
      > > http://churches-of-christ.ws/denne.htm
      > >
      > > -----------------------------------------------
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "w_w_c_l"
      > > <w_w_c_l@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > While going through documenting the instances of plagiarism on
      > > > Keith Sisman's "Traces of the Kingdom" page about Henry Denne
      > > > (a good bit of it comes straight from Chapter 9 of J.M. Cramp's
      > > > *Baptist History*, which Sisman denies he has ever heard of),
      > > > I noticed that Sisman has also included some information there
      > > > about John Bunyan:
      > > >
      > > > > John Bunyan (November 28, 1628 – August 31, 1688), a Christian
      > > > > writer and preacher for the Bedford church of Christ, was born
      > > > > at Harrowden (one mile south-east of Bedford), in the Parish
      of
      > > > > Elstow, England. He wrote 'The Pilgrim's Progress', arguably
      the
      > > > > most famous published Christian allegory....
      > > > >
      > > > > John Bunyan was not a Baptist and the church he was a member
      was
      > > > > not a Baptist church, but a church of Christ which in time
      fell
      > > > > into apostasy.
      > > > http://churches-of-christ.ws/denne.htm
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Well, despite all the "Landmarkers" through the years who have
      > > > included John Bunyan among the early English Baptists, there are
      > > > a number of Baptists today who would agree with Keith Sisman
      that
      > > > Bunyan was never a real Baptist, since he, like John Tombes,
      > > > practiced "open communion" in his Bedford church with those who
      > > > had never been immersed.
      > > >
      > > > So, the question is, then, was Bunyan's church a "Church of
      > > > Christ" as Sisman uses the term? If some preacher today was
      > > > holding fellowship with, and offering communion to, people who
      > > > had not been baptized by immersion, would Sisman say that
      preacher
      > > > was a "Christian", and that the church where he preached was
      > > > a "Church of Christ"?
      > > >
      > > > Of course not.
      > > >
      > > > In fact, Keith Sisman does not even consider about 99% of the
      > > > people who *have* been immersed and who *do not* offer communion
      > > > to unbaptized individuals to be "Christians", and he sure
      doesn't
      > > > consider them to be members of any church of Christ. Whereas
      > > > Sisman describes Bunyan simply as "being to the left doctrinally
      > > > to Denne", anyone today who believed as Bunyan believed would be
      > > > adjudged by Sisman to be an "apostate" headed straight to hell.
      > > >
      > > > Sisman's use of John Bunyan in his Church of Christ "history",
      > > > therefore, is just one more example of how Sisman will
      > > > conveniently overlook differences in faith and practice between
      > > > himself and these historical figures -- as long as they used the
      > > > phrase "church of Christ" somewhere in their writings that is
      > > > all that is needed for Sisman to consider them "faithful
      brothers"
      > > > and evidence that his "Church of Christ" existed in England long
      > > > before the Restoration Movement.
      > > >
      > > > That is, unless Sisman is really just a closet Latitudinarian...
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Rick Hartzog
      > > > Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > References:
      > > >
      > > > A biography of John Bunyan in which he is not labeled a Baptist:
      > > > http://www.wholesomewords.org/biography/bbunyan4.html
      > > >
      > > > Bunyan's 1673 answer to Kiffen:
      > > > Differences in Water Baptism No Bar to Communion:
      > > > http://www.mountzion.org/johnbunyan/text/bun-baptism.htm
      > > > (some pretty interesting stuff in here)
      > >
      >
    • Robert Baty
      Rick, Thanks for posting that. I don t recall hearing anything about Jim passing on or even being a Harvard grad. He was a welcome addition to the
      Message 58 of 58 , Sep 16, 2013
        Rick,

        Thanks for posting that.

        I don't recall hearing anything about Jim passing on or even being a Harvard grad.

        He was a welcome addition to the conversations.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty


        To: Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
        From: w_w_c_l@...
        Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 23:19:28 +0000
        Subject: [M & B] Re: Yet another Baptist historian Keith Sisman has never heard of?

         


        --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "James A. Wyly"
        <jpwyly@...> wrote:
        >
        > Rick,
        >
        > I want to echo what Robert Baty said below and express my
        > appreciation of your efforts as well. You must sometimes
        > feel like a voice crying in the wilderness, to coin a phrase.
        >
        > It astounds me that Keith Sisman would so blatantly publish
        > not only plagiarized "history", but altered, plagiarized history.
        >
        > So far as the pack defending him on ContendingFTF and CFTF,
        > I've given up on them. Shockingly and sadly, most of them
        > are ministers. Their rallying around a proven plagiarist
        > astounds me. My solace is they seem to be few in number
        > with very small congregations. May it ever be so.
        >
        > Anyway, I do appreciate your efforts.
        >
        >
        > Jim Wyly

        Well, Jim Wyly died only about a year after he wrote this
        and I never knew it until a couple of months ago.

        http://dakotatoday.typepad.com/dakotatoday/2009/03/funeral-noticejames-a-wyly-of-aberdeen-sd.html

        I guess none of us ever knew Jim was a Harvard graduate.

        But at least *somebody* has discovered the truth about
        Keith Sisman's "scholarship". See message #17 on this page:
        http://www.topix.com/forum/city/martinsville-va/T9MNAGK3EV7VQGJV4

        and message #79 on this page:
        http://www.topix.com/forum/city/royse-city-tx/TTI90G30GNML6QVGJ/p4

        I suppose Jim would also take solace in knowing those "few in
        numbers" have pretty much disappeared underground. He was a
        good guy.

        Rick Hartzog
        Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism

        > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "rlbaty50" <rlbaty@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Rick,
        > >
        > > I again want to express my appreciation for your time, talent and
        > > interest in developing this important public issue and keeping it
        > > before our audience.
        > >
        > > This forum is open to Keith and I would like to have him
        > > "come out" and openly, honestly deal with the charges you
        > > have raised against him.
        > >
        > > It would be a good thing!
        > >
        > > For the time being, it looks like your charges are serious,
        > > substantive, and sustainable/sustained.
        > >
        > > The good brethren should be concerned and should be about
        > > dealing with the problem Keith Sisman has apparently created
        > > with his less than scholarly works.
        > >
        > > Sincerely,
        > > Robert Baty
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "w_w_c_l" <w_w_c_l@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I am reposting this to "keep it before the audience" as
        > > > Bales suggests.
        > > >
        > > > The thread is getting pretty long, so to see the other
        > > > messages in which Keith Sisman's plagiarism and erroneous
        > > > historical claims have been documented, click on the
        > > > "First" link in the box of threaded messages below this
        > > > message.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Re: Yet another Baptist historian Keith Sisman has never heard of?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > I had written:
        > > >
        > > > > While going through documenting the instances of plagiarism
        > > > > on Keith Sisman's "Traces of the Kingdom" page about Henry
        > > > > Denne (a good bit of it comes straight from Chapter 9 of
        > > > > J.M. Cramp's *Baptist History*, which Sisman denies he has
        > > > > ever heard of)...
        > > >
        > > > Here is the link to Chapter 9 of Cramp's book:
        > > > http://www.reformedreader.org/history/cramp/s06ch09.htm
        > > >
        > > > Actually, there is so much on Sisman's page about Henry Denne
        > > > that Sisman took from Cramp's *Baptist History* that there
        > > > isn't much need of me going to all the trouble of pointing
        > > > out each place where the plagiarism occurs. All anyone has
        > > > to do is compare the two documents. Sisman either paraphrases
        > > > or quotes word-for-word from Cramp throughout his article,
        > > > gives no reference, and then he has the gall to say he never
        > > > heard of Cramp until I brought it up.
        > > >
        > > > But his material on Henry Denne is not *entirely* from Cramp.
        > > >
        > > > I suppose Keith Sisman will also try claiming he has never
        > > > heard of John Dowse, former pastor of Monksthorpe Baptist
        > > > Church, who in 1910 wrote:
        > > >
        > > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
        > > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
        > > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
        > > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
        > > > | adopt Baptist views after reading literature confiscated
        > > > | from Baptist soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
        > > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
        > > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
        > > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
        > > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
        > > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
        > > > | indebted for its establishment.
        > > >
        > > > On Keith Sisman's page about Henry Denne we see the exact same
        > > > text, except Sisman has removed the word "Baptist":
        > > >
        > > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
        > > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
        > > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
        > > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
        > > > | adopt Christian views after reading literature confiscated
        > > > | from soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
        > > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
        > > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
        > > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
        > > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
        > > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
        > > > | indebted for its establishment.
        > > >
        > > > See that? Lucy Hutchinson and her husband came to adopt
        > > > *Baptist* views, according to Dowse, but according to Sisman
        > > > they came to adopt *Christian* views. According to Dowse,
        > > > literature was confiscated from *Baptist* soldiers.
        > > >
        > > > Dowse continues:
        > > >
        > > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
        > > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
        > > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
        > > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
        > > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
        > > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
        > > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
        > > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
        > > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
        > > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the Baptist
        > > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
        > > >
        > > > And Sisman follows right along:
        > > >
        > > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
        > > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
        > > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
        > > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
        > > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
        > > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
        > > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
        > > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
        > > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
        > > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the
        > > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
        > > >
        > > > Notice how Sisman has removed the reference to Crosby being
        > > > a "Baptist" historian? Notice how Sisman, rather than doing
        > > > his research at Cambridge University Library or the British
        > > > Library as he often claims, has evidently just pasted these
        > > > paragraphs off the internet, including the typographical error
        > > > of misspelling "gaol"?
        > > >
        > > > Dowse continues:
        > > >
        > > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
        > > > | the imprisonment of several other Baptists. Nevertheless,
        > > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
        > > > | Baptist churches in the area.
        > > >
        > > > But what does Sisman say? Again, he removes the word "Baptist"
        > > > and replaces it with "Christian" and "church of Christ":
        > > >
        > > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
        > > > | the imprisonment of several other Christians. Nevertheless,
        > > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
        > > > | churches of Christ in the area.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > This sort of thing is inexcusable in scholastic writing.
        > > >
        > > > It is bad enough that Sisman, rather than doing his own
        > > > work just rips it off from others, but copying someone
        > > > else's work word-for-word and altering it just enough to
        > > > suit your own thesis is dishonesty on a whole other level.
        > > > And to engage in this kind of behavior and then deny that
        > > > you have ever heard of these authors from whose works you
        > > > have stolen is, to right-thinking people, simply
        > > > inconceivable.
        > > >
        > > > How do you deal with someone who will do stuff like this,
        > > > someone who, when confronted with the evidence, will look
        > > > you dead in the eye and lie about it, while the protective
        > > > circle of David P. Brown's "Contending For The Faith"
        > > > buddyhood closes around him and begins attacking you for
        > > > daring to question the integrity of one of their
        > > > lectureship hosts?
        > > >
        > > > Brown and Co. must really love that trip to England
        > > > each year!
        > > >
        > > > But, I'm sure we'll think of something...
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Rick Hartzog
        > > > Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Here are the relevant excerpts; the original text from
        > > > Dowse followed by the altered text as it appears on
        > > > Sisman's webpage:
        > > > -----------------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
        > > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
        > > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
        > > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
        > > > | adopt Baptist views after reading literature confiscated
        > > > | from Baptist soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
        > > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
        > > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
        > > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
        > > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
        > > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
        > > > | indebted for its establishment.
        > > > |
        > > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
        > > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
        > > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
        > > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
        > > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
        > > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
        > > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
        > > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
        > > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
        > > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the Baptist
        > > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
        > > > |
        > > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
        > > > | the imprisonment of several other Baptists. Nevertheless,
        > > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
        > > > | Baptist churches in the area.
        > > >
        > > > from: "The History of Monksthorpe and Burgh," (1910),
        > > > by John Dowse, former pastor of Monksthorpe Baptist Church:
        > > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bh.keyworth/History.htm
        > > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bh.keyworth/john_dowse.htm
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > | Lucy Hutchinson, the wife of Colonel John Hutchinson,
        > > > | Parliamentary Governor of Nottingham Castle during the
        > > > | Civil War, in her "Memoirs of the Life of Colonel
        > > > | Hutchinson", records how she and her husband came to
        > > > | adopt Christian views after reading literature confiscated
        > > > | from soldiers in the Castle. She speaks of the
        > > > | Presbyterian ministers being unable to defend the baptism
        > > > | of infants "for any satisfactory reason but the tradition
        > > > | of the church ... which Tombes and Denne has so excellently
        > > > | overthrown". It is to this Henry Denne, that the Baptist
        > > > | cause in South-East Lincolnshire is, to a large extent,
        > > > | indebted for its establishment. In 1645 John Tombes wrote
        > > > | to several churches of Christ in America, which is the next
        > > > | page.
        > > > |
        > > > | In 1646 Denne preached several times in Spalding in the
        > > > | house of a merchant, John Makernesse. As a result four
        > > > | people were converted. Their names were, Anne Stennet and
        > > > | Anne Croft, who were servants of Makernesse, and Godfrey
        > > > | Root and John Sowter. It was arranged that these four should
        > > > | be baptised at Little Croft a few days later, the baptism
        > > > | to take place at midnight to avoid interference by the
        > > > | authorities. One of the women unwisely told a friend about
        > > > | the baptism who passed on the information to the magistrate.
        > > > | As a result Denne was arrested and, according to the
        > > > | historian Crosby, was committed to Lincoln goal.
        > > > |
        > > > | The same magistrate was incidentally responsible also for
        > > > | the imprisonment of several other Christians. Nevertheless,
        > > > | in due course Spalding became one of the more important
        > > > | churches of Christ in the area.
        > > > http://churches-of-christ.ws/denne.htm
        > > >
        > > > -----------------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "w_w_c_l"
        > > > <w_w_c_l@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > While going through documenting the instances of plagiarism on
        > > > > Keith Sisman's "Traces of the Kingdom" page about Henry Denne
        > > > > (a good bit of it comes straight from Chapter 9 of J.M. Cramp's
        > > > > *Baptist History*, which Sisman denies he has ever heard of),
        > > > > I noticed that Sisman has also included some information there
        > > > > about John Bunyan:
        > > > >
        > > > > > John Bunyan (November 28, 1628 – August 31, 1688), a Christian
        > > > > > writer and preacher for the Bedford church of Christ, was born
        > > > > > at Harrowden (one mile south-east of Bedford), in the Parish
        > of
        > > > > > Elstow, England. He wrote 'The Pilgrim's Progress', arguably
        > the
        > > > > > most famous published Christian allegory....
        > > > > >
        > > > > > John Bunyan was not a Baptist and the church he was a member
        > was
        > > > > > not a Baptist church, but a church of Christ which in time
        > fell
        > > > > > into apostasy.
        > > > > http://churches-of-christ.ws/denne.htm
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Well, despite all the "Landmarkers" through the years who have
        > > > > included John Bunyan among the early English Baptists, there are
        > > > > a number of Baptists today who would agree with Keith Sisman
        > that
        > > > > Bunyan was never a real Baptist, since he, like John Tombes,
        > > > > practiced "open communion" in his Bedford church with those who
        > > > > had never been immersed.
        > > > >
        > > > > So, the question is, then, was Bunyan's church a "Church of
        > > > > Christ" as Sisman uses the term? If some preacher today was
        > > > > holding fellowship with, and offering communion to, people who
        > > > > had not been baptized by immersion, would Sisman say that
        > preacher
        > > > > was a "Christian", and that the church where he preached was
        > > > > a "Church of Christ"?
        > > > >
        > > > > Of course not.
        > > > >
        > > > > In fact, Keith Sisman does not even consider about 99% of the
        > > > > people who *have* been immersed and who *do not* offer communion
        > > > > to unbaptized individuals to be "Christians", and he sure
        > doesn't
        > > > > consider them to be members of any church of Christ. Whereas
        > > > > Sisman describes Bunyan simply as "being to the left doctrinally
        > > > > to Denne", anyone today who believed as Bunyan believed would be
        > > > > adjudged by Sisman to be an "apostate" headed straight to hell.
        > > > >
        > > > > Sisman's use of John Bunyan in his Church of Christ "history",
        > > > > therefore, is just one more example of how Sisman will
        > > > > conveniently overlook differences in faith and practice between
        > > > > himself and these historical figures -- as long as they used the
        > > > > phrase "church of Christ" somewhere in their writings that is
        > > > > all that is needed for Sisman to consider them "faithful
        > brothers"
        > > > > and evidence that his "Church of Christ" existed in England long
        > > > > before the Restoration Movement.
        > > > >
        > > > > That is, unless Sisman is really just a closet Latitudinarian...
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Rick Hartzog
        > > > > Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > References:
        > > > >
        > > > > A biography of John Bunyan in which he is not labeled a Baptist:
        > > > > http://www.wholesomewords.org/biography/bbunyan4.html
        > > > >
        > > > > Bunyan's 1673 answer to Kiffen:
        > > > > Differences in Water Baptism No Bar to Communion:
        > > > > http://www.mountzion.org/johnbunyan/text/bun-baptism.htm
        > > > > (some pretty interesting stuff in here)
        > > >
        > >
        >


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