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But, Gil...

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  • w_w_c_l
    ... [excerpt] ... But, Gil... where does that leave you, with your ideas that the Earth is only a few thousand years old? That belief HAS been proven false,
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 2, 2007
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      --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
      "Todd S. Greene" <greeneto@...> quoted:
      >
      > Burden of Proof
      > by Gil Yoder (July 9, 2007)
      > http://www.letusreason.com/arts/?rec=318
      >
      [excerpt]
      >
      > The burden of proof when it comes to Bible study comes
      > to those who make a positive claim about the Bible. If
      > the claim is true, it should be possible to prove it by
      > use of reason and truth. If one cannot prove that his
      > beliefs are true, it is presumptuous to affirm that
      > those beliefs are true just because they haven't been
      > proven false.

      But, Gil... where does that leave you, with your ideas
      that the Earth is only a few thousand years old?

      That belief HAS been proven false, time and time again.

      I would say it is worse than "presumptuous" for people to
      continue to affirm that the Genesis Creation must be taken
      as literal history.

      Remember when Yoder briefly dropped by here for a few
      days, and once we got the validity of "Goliath" sorted
      out he retreated to the "apparent age" position?

      How in the world are you supposed to "prove" a belief
      like that is true?

      Why is it so difficult for "some" people to accept that the
      Creation story is allegorical, and not a literal account
      of something that was supposed to have happened over the
      course of one week a few thousand years ago?



      Rick Hartzog
      Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism
    • Robert Baty
      ... As I recall, it was when Gil finally came out to admit his error in making a big deal for years out of my using the terms major premise and minor
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 2, 2007
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        Rick, you wrote, in part:

        > Remember when Yoder
        > briefly dropped by here
        > for a few days, and once
        > we got the validity of
        > "Goliath" sorted out he...

        As I recall, it was when Gil finally "came out" to admit his error in making a big deal for years out of my using the terms "major premise" and "minor premise" to label the major and minor premises in my "Goliath of GRAS".

        It was nice to see him finally admit, explain and correct that error.

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • w_w_c_l
        ... And our brains are in the Universe. But even my brain isn t completely in my brain, unless the Universe itself is in my brain, too. If other parts of the
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 3, 2007
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          --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
          "Todd S. Greene" <greeneto@...> wrote:
          >
          > I was doing a little web-surfing this evening, and
          > I've just learned that there's a huge library of
          > video and audio files of live show produced by a
          > group in Austin, Texas, called the Atheist Community
          > of Austin. You can view the videos of the program
          > online...
          >
          > There are dozens of programs. Here's a sample...
          >
          > Program #500
          > Consciousness. Tracie Harris talks about our current
          > understanding of the consciousness and that our selves
          > are completely in our brain.


          And our brains are in the Universe.

          But even my brain isn't completely in my brain, unless
          the Universe itself is in my brain, too.

          If other parts of the Universe besides my self have
          "consciousness", then my consciousness is part of that
          larger consciousness -- the Universal Mind. There is
          no other way but that "I" am of "It", within It, connected
          to It.

          The only part of my "self" that is defined by my brain
          is the part of my "self" that is defined by my brain.

          But how closely does my personal brain-generated "self"
          correspond to what my true self really is? Other selves
          see my self from a different perspective -- some of that
          feedback from other selves is incorporated into my own
          self and used as an adjustment of my own view of self.
          But how can I be sure those other selves even exist in
          reality? Maybe they're just all in my brain, too.

          My internet connection is too slow for me to watch videos,
          but Tracie Harris is a graphic artist with a degree in
          liberal arts. She is the creator of "Atheist Eve", a
          cartoon character who seems to be about as literal-minded
          about the Bible as the young-earth creationists -- if there
          was no global Flood a few thousand years ago then the Bible
          must not be true; if the Bible is not true then there is
          no God (although that isn't the way she would state it
          her *self*, of course, because then that would be making an
          affirmative statement).

          Here is a link to some of her comics... no, on second
          thought... they're not funny anyway and some of them are
          just plain offensive.


          I guess what I'm trying to say is that Tracie Harris is not
          one to be authoritatively telling us "our 'selves' are
          completely in our brain". The mystery of consciousness is
          by no means solved; it may be that it is unsolvable,
          particularly by empirical methods.

          Here is an article where one researcher suggests that a
          unified "Theory of Everything" may have to include
          consciousness:

          Why Great Minds Can't Grasp Consciousness:
          http://www.livescience.com/health/050808_human_consciousness.html


          Eric Lormand is a philosophy professor with a sense of humor:

          http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lormand/phil/cons/steps.htm
          (above link is a basic, scaled-down version of this next one):
          http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lormand/phil/cons/consciousness.htm

          I'll include this link because I like the quote at the end of
          the page:

          http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lormand/phil/teach/momma.htm

          Here's something pretty interesting;
          Global Consciousness Project:
          http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

          Wikipedia entry for "Quantum Mind":
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind

          How we even choose to define "consciousness" becomes
          controversial -- when it gets right down to it we may have to
          acknowledge that consciousness belongs to things we would much
          prefer to think of as having no consciousness:


          | The White people never cared for the land or deer or bear.
          | When we Indians kill meat, we eat it all up. When we dig
          | roots, we make little holes. When we build houses, we make
          | little holes. When we burn grass for grasshoppers, we don't
          | ruin things. We shake down acorns and pinenuts. We don't
          | chop down the trees. We only use dead wood. But the White
          | people plow up the ground, pull down the trees, kill
          | everything. The tree says, "Don't. I am sore. Don't hurt me."
          | But they chop it down and cut it up. The spirit of the land
          | hates them. They blast out trees and stir it up to its depths.
          | They saw up the trees. That hurts them. The Indians never
          | hurt anything, but the White people destroy all. They blast
          | rocks and scatter them on the ground. The rock says, "Don't!
          | You are hurting me." But the White people pay no attention.
          | When the Indians use rocks, they take the little round ones for
          | their cooking . . . How can the spirit of the earth like the
          | White man? . . . Everywhere the White man has touched it, it is
          | sore.

          --Wintu holy woman, in McLuhan (ed.), "Touch the Earth".



          Rick Hartzog
          Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism


          "O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
          To see oursels as others see us!"
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