Translators, David P. Brown & my "Goliath of GRAS" family of arguments!
- David P. Brown wrote the forward for the published, written debate
between Bob Berard and Robin Haley on the issue of women translators.
Here are some of what I found interesting in David P. Brown's forward:
> Both of these brethren have DECLAREDVery interesting! One would get the distinct impression that if
> their belief in the plenary verbal
> inspiration of the Bible.
> (T)hey have ACKNOWLEDGED the Scriptures
> to be the objective, absolute, humanly
> attainable, final, infallible standard
> for determining God's will in any and
> all matters.
> (E)ach has AFFIRMED his belief in the
> absolute need and proper use of the
> rational faculties of man in arriving
> at the truth on any subject.
> The reader must determine whether the
> debaters stayed TRUE to and CONSISTENT
> with what they "DECLARED", "ACKNOWLEDGED",
> and "AFFIRMED".
> The debate was a written one.
> Therefore, each man had sufficient time
> to study and think through his position
> and arguments as well as those of his
> True and false statements as well as
> questions were employed by each party
> to expose inconsistencies and
> This is the nature of a debate; and,
> therefore, the reason the serious
> student is benefited by it.
> (T)he following fundamental questions
> should be asked by any reader concerning
> each participants efforts in this debate,
> or any debate of this nature, whether
> oral or written.
> 1. Did each disputant define the terms
> of his proposition?
> 2. Did each party understand the
> implication(s) of his proposition?
> 19. Did either party ridicule logic?
> 20. Did the participants reveal that they
> understood that precisely stated
> propositions are without exception true
> or false?
> 21. Did the disputants know how to make
> an argument?
> 22. Did the parties understand that when
> the major and minor premises of a syllogism
> are true and the syllogism is valid that
> the conclusion cannot be wrong?
> 23. Did the disputants understand that an
> illustration proves othing, that it only
> 26. Was the issue clearly stated?
> 29. Did either participant personally
> attack his opponent?
> 30. Did either brother demonstrate that he
> would NOT change his position regardless
> of how adequate the evidence was or how
> logically it was presented?
> (I)f one cannot logically analyze information
> it is impossible for him to comprehend it;
> and, if one has not comprehended what was
> said or written, he has not listened.
> What did the debater actually say?
> (D)id each debater say what his opponent
> said he said?
> For obvious reasons this is more easily done
> in a written debate; however, it is imperative
> that time and effort be used in reading
> and re-reading material if such is to be
> adequately done.
> Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
> David P. Brown
> Bible Resource Publications
> Spring, TX
David P. Brown really believed such as the above, he would have
showed up for the proposed formal, in writing, for the record debate
on the existence of the yount-earth, creation-science God he and his
boys were trying to claim they could prove existed.
After reading the above, and re-reading it, I think I have a pretty
good idea as to why David P. Brown never showed up and why none of
his boys or their espoused champtions never showed up for the
discussion; despite the overwhelmingly greater importance of the
issue when compared to the fuss over women translators; and that by
their own standard in judging the importance of controversial issues.
Basically, as previously noted, the reason they will not show up for
the discussion is because their position is really that as stated by
Dr. Fox and summarized below:
> We, David P. Brown and my boys,That they are with Dr. Fox on that is indicated by another one of the
> have our interpretation of the
> text regarding the real world
> and that trumps any real world
> evidence to the contrary.
> Affirmed: David P. Brown
> Affirmed: Brown's boys
questions suggested by David P. Brown in his forward. It reads:
> 3. Was the Bible used as the ONLYSincerely,
> standard of measurement in attempting
> to prove and disprove matters?
- In Maury_and_Baty, post #11486, Robert Baty quoted David P. Brown
extensively on his comments regarding debate. As we have all noted,
David Brown is thus rather hypocritically selective in how he applies
HIS OWN points.
My only additional comment is about this one:
| 3. Was the Bible used as the ONLY
| standard of measurement in attempting
| to prove and disprove matters?
Just as I noted in a previous post on this point, if this was truly
the case, to be applied "across the board" (and I note here that
David Brown himself may not actually intend this, since he may
recognize that there are contexts in which this would simply not be
applicable - for example, trying to figure out why the refrigerator
quit working - even though his behavior on public record here in
regard to creationism indicates that he does think it applies even in
cases where the truth can be determined by empirical examinination of
the real world itself), then Christians should be completely ignoring
all scientific discovery and still teaching that the Sun orbits the
Earth, since this is exactly what is indicates by all biblical
statements that are relevant to the subject. The fact of the matter
is that the ONLY reason we know otherwise (that the Earth orbits the
Sun instead of the other way around) is by scientific study of the
Of course, David Brown, and the other young earth creationists of his
group, completely ignored this point, just as they completely ignored
many, many other relevant points in the discussion. The poor young
earth creationists simply cannot deal with reality. And THEY KNOW IT.
Which is why they deliberately ignore such points and refuse to deal
- Todd Greene
[cc: David P. Brown]