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David P. Brown's and his boys' affirmative, on the table!

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  • Robert Baty
    Daniel Denham is putting on a show from under the ContendingFTF table for his boys over there; proposing he s still anxious to get on with a debate on the
    Message 1 of 26 , Jun 29, 2007
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      Daniel Denham is putting on a show from under the ContendingFTF table for his boys over there; proposing he's still anxious to get on with a debate on the existence of God.

      Well, here's the proposition, Thomas B. Warren-like, that is still on the table for David P. Brown to take up in any such debate and proceed to negotiate in good faith to get it on, formally, in writing, and for the record:

      Here's the indicated affirmative position held by David P. Brown and his boys:

      > We, David P. Brown and
      > the ContendingFTF boys,
      > affirm:

      >> If some thing really
      >> is more than a few
      >> thousand years old,
      >> then the God we believe
      >> in, as represented in
      >> the Bible, does not exist.

      > Affirmed: David P. Brown

      The Boys:

      > Affirmed: Wayne Coats
      > Affirmed: Dub McClish
      > Affirmed: Harrell Davidson

      > Affirmed: Daniel Denham
      > Affirmed: Don DeLong
      > Affirmed: Doug Post
      > Affirmed: Dennis Francis
      > Affirmed: Daniel Coe
      > Affirmed: Keith Sisman
      > Affirmed: Richard Mansel
      > Affirmed: Robin Haley
      > Affirmed: Ken Chumbley
      > Affirmed: Kent Bailey
      > Affirmed: Jerry Brewer
      > Affirmed: Roelff Ruffner
      > Affirmed: Denny Durigan
      > Affirmed: Geoff Litke
      > Affirmed: Daniel Douglas
      > Affirmed: Tim Smith
      > Affirmed: Donald Canny
      > Affirmed: Wayne Blake
      > Affirmed: Bill Rainey
      > Affirmed: Denny Wilson
      > Affirmed: Jimmie Z. Gribble
      > Affirmed: Charles Wallace
      > Affirmed: Robert Collier
      > Affirmed: Michael Wilk
      > Affirmed: Roger Zink
      > Affirmed: Donald Mash
      > Affirmed: Charles Broyles
      > Affirmed: Brian Reagan
      > Affirmed: Richie Baker
      > Affirmed: Gilbert Gough
      > Affirmed: John Miler
      > Affirmed: Kevin Townsend
      > Affirmed: Justin Guess
      > Affirmed: David Hammer
      > Affirmed: Donald R. Fox
      > Affirmed: Johnny Kelton
      > Affirmed: Bruce Stulting
      > Affirmed: Bradley S. Cobb
      > Affirmed: Joe Gannotti
      > Affirmed: Chuck Newell
      > Affirmed: Bill Schwegler
      > Affirmed: Val Jamison
      > Affirmed: Robert Foster
      > Affirmed: Lynn Parker
      > Affirmed: Weldon Blake
      > Affirmed: Dale Miller
      > Affirmed: Jack L. Burch
      > Affirmed: Cody Westbrook
      > Affirmed: "et al"

      If the above is not a correct and accurate description of the position they have been implicitly prosecuting lately, they have
      until July 2, 2007 to respond directly to this list and state explicitly their true position on what they believe the consequence
      is regarding their position IF some thing really is more than a few thousand years old.

      They will then have their name removed from the above and placed appropriately on the legitimate affirmative position as indicated by their response and their explicit denial of the above affirmative.

      In order to respond directly to this list, they simply need to address their e-mail to:

      Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

      Sincerely,
      Robert Baty

      P.S. If anyone knows of any public claims (i.e., with Internet links) by the above noted individuals whereby they effectively deny the above affirmative statement, please forward such verifiable references and they will be considered for purposes of determining which individuals may disagree with David P. Brown and agree with me!

      -----------------------
      -----------------------





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • rlbaty50
      (Note: To date, no one has come forward to deny that the following accurately describes the position held by David P. Brown and his boys.) Following below is
      Message 2 of 26 , Jun 30, 2007
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        (Note: To date, no one has come forward to deny that the following
        accurately describes the position held by David P. Brown and his
        boys.)


        Following below is the proposition, Thomas B. Warren-like, that is
        still on the table for David P. Brown to take up in the proposed
        formal, in writing, for the record discussion.

        David P. Brown should also proceed to negotiate in good faith in
        order to "get it on", formally, in writing, and for the record:

        Here it is, the indicated affirmative position held by David P. Brown
        and his boys:

        > We, David P. Brown and
        > the ContendingFTF boys,
        > affirm:

        >> If some thing really
        >> is more than a few
        >> thousand years old,
        >> then the God we believe
        >> in, as represented in
        >> the Bible, does not exist.

        > Affirmed: David P. Brown

        The Boys:

        > Affirmed: Wayne Coats
        > Affirmed: Dub McClish
        > Affirmed: Harrell Davidson

        > Affirmed: Daniel Denham
        > Affirmed: Don DeLong
        > Affirmed: Doug Post
        > Affirmed: Dennis Francis
        > Affirmed: Daniel Coe
        > Affirmed: Keith Sisman
        > Affirmed: Richard Mansel
        > Affirmed: Robin Haley
        > Affirmed: Ken Chumbley
        > Affirmed: Kent Bailey
        > Affirmed: Jerry Brewer
        > Affirmed: Roelff Ruffner
        > Affirmed: Denny Durigan
        > Affirmed: Geoff Litke
        > Affirmed: Daniel Douglas
        > Affirmed: Tim Smith
        > Affirmed: Donald Canny
        > Affirmed: Wayne Blake
        > Affirmed: Bill Rainey
        > Affirmed: Denny Wilson
        > Affirmed: Jimmie Z. Gribble
        > Affirmed: Charles Wallace
        > Affirmed: Robert Collier
        > Affirmed: Michael Wilk
        > Affirmed: Roger Zink
        > Affirmed: Donald Mash
        > Affirmed: Charles Broyles
        > Affirmed: Brian Reagan
        > Affirmed: Richie Baker
        > Affirmed: Gilbert Gough
        > Affirmed: John Miler
        > Affirmed: Kevin Townsend
        > Affirmed: Justin Guess
        > Affirmed: David Hammer
        > Affirmed: Donald R. Fox
        > Affirmed: Johnny Kelton
        > Affirmed: Bruce Stulting
        > Affirmed: Bradley S. Cobb
        > Affirmed: Joe Gannotti
        > Affirmed: Chuck Newell
        > Affirmed: Bill Schwegler
        > Affirmed: Val Jamison
        > Affirmed: Robert Foster
        > Affirmed: Lynn Parker
        > Affirmed: Weldon Blake
        > Affirmed: Dale Miller
        > Affirmed: Jack L. Burch
        > Affirmed: Cody Westbrook
        > Affirmed: "et al"

        If the above is not a correct and accurate description of the
        position they have been implicitly prosecuting lately, they have
        until July 2, 2007 to respond directly to this list and state
        explicitly their true position on what they believe the consequence
        is regarding their position IF some thing really is more than a few
        thousand years old.

        They will then have their name removed from the above and placed
        appropriately on the legitimate affirmative position as indicated by
        their response and their explicit denial of the above affirmative.

        In order to respond directly to this list, they simply need to
        address their e-mail to:

        Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

        Sincerely,
        Robert Baty

        P.S. If anyone knows of any public claims (i.e., with Internet links)
        by the above noted individuals whereby they effectively deny the
        above affirmative statement, please forward such verifiable
        references and they will be considered for purposes of determining
        which individuals may disagree with David P. Brown and agree with me!

        -----------------------
        -----------------------
      • Robert Baty
        (In the other thread, Donald Canny mentions the degree of certainty I have regarding David P. Brown s position as to the falsification test for the god he
        Message 3 of 26 , Jun 30, 2007
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          (In the other thread, Donald Canny mentions the degree of certainty I have regarding David P. Brown's position as to the falsification test for the god he believes in. I do have my doubts! That is why I have been asking for David P. Brown and the boys to make it explicitly clear as to whether or not they really, really do hold to the implicit position they have promoted as indicated below. So, here again is the invitation for them to "come out" and prove me wrong as to their real position and take up my position on the subject [i.e., accept the validity of my "Goliath of GRAS"].)

          Following below is the proposition, Thomas B. Warren-like, that is still on the table for David P. Brown to take up in the proposed
          formal, in writing, for the record discussion.

          David P. Brown should also proceed to negotiate in good faith in order to "get it on", formally, in writing, and for the record:

          Here it is, the indicated affirmative position held by David P. Brown and his boys:

          > We, David P. Brown and
          > the ContendingFTF boys,
          > affirm:

          >> If some thing really
          >> is more than a few
          >> thousand years old,
          >> then the God we believe
          >> in, as represented in
          >> the Bible, does not exist.

          > Affirmed: David P. Brown

          The Boys:

          > Affirmed: Wayne Coats
          > Affirmed: Dub McClish
          > Affirmed: Harrell Davidson

          > Affirmed: Daniel Denham
          > Affirmed: Don DeLong
          > Affirmed: Doug Post
          > Affirmed: Dennis Francis
          > Affirmed: Daniel Coe
          > Affirmed: Keith Sisman
          > Affirmed: Richard Mansel
          > Affirmed: Robin Haley
          > Affirmed: Ken Chumbley
          > Affirmed: Kent Bailey
          > Affirmed: Jerry Brewer
          > Affirmed: Roelff Ruffner
          > Affirmed: Denny Durigan
          > Affirmed: Geoff Litke
          > Affirmed: Daniel Douglas
          > Affirmed: Tim Smith

          > Affirmed: Donald Canny

          > Affirmed: Wayne Blake
          > Affirmed: Bill Rainey
          > Affirmed: Denny Wilson
          > Affirmed: Jimmie Z. Gribble
          > Affirmed: Charles Wallace
          > Affirmed: Robert Collier
          > Affirmed: Michael Wilk
          > Affirmed: Roger Zink
          > Affirmed: Donald Mash
          > Affirmed: Charles Broyles
          > Affirmed: Brian Reagan
          > Affirmed: Richie Baker
          > Affirmed: Gilbert Gough
          > Affirmed: John Miler
          > Affirmed: Kevin Townsend
          > Affirmed: Justin Guess
          > Affirmed: David Hammer
          > Affirmed: Donald R. Fox
          > Affirmed: Johnny Kelton
          > Affirmed: Bruce Stulting
          > Affirmed: Bradley S. Cobb
          > Affirmed: Joe Gannotti
          > Affirmed: Chuck Newell
          > Affirmed: Bill Schwegler
          > Affirmed: Val Jamison
          > Affirmed: Robert Foster
          > Affirmed: Lynn Parker
          > Affirmed: Weldon Blake
          > Affirmed: Dale Miller
          > Affirmed: Jack L. Burch
          > Affirmed: Cody Westbrook
          > Affirmed: "et al"

          If the above is not a correct and accurate description of the position they have been implicitly prosecuting lately, they have
          until July 2, 2007 to respond directly to this list and state explicitly their true position on what they believe the consequence
          is regarding their position IF some thing really is more than a few thousand years old.

          They will then have their name removed from the above and placed appropriately on the legitimate affirmative position as indicated by their response and their explicit denial of the above affirmative.

          In order to respond directly to this list, they simply need to address their e-mail to:

          Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

          Sincerely,
          Robert Baty

          P.S. If anyone knows of any public claims (i.e., with Internet links) by the above noted individuals whereby they effectively deny the above affirmative statement, please forward such verifiable references and they will be considered for purposes of determining which individuals may disagree with David P. Brown and agree with me!

          -----------------------
          -----------------------




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Robert Baty
          (In the spirit of good faith and cooperation, the July 2, 2007 deadline has been extended indefinitely. It s just too important of a public issue not to allow
          Message 4 of 26 , Jul 1 9:44 PM
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            (In the spirit of good faith and cooperation, the July 2, 2007 deadline has been extended indefinitely. It's just too important of a public issue not to allow David P. Brown and his boys a continuing opportunity to explicitly express what they have implied as to their position.)

            Following below is the proposition, Thomas B. Warren-like, that is still on the table for David P. Brown to take up in the proposed
            formal, in writing, for the record discussion.

            David P. Brown should also proceed to negotiate in good faith in order to "get it on", formally, in writing or orally, and for the record.

            Here it is, the indicated affirmative position held by David P. Brown and his boys:

            > We, David P. Brown and
            > the ContendingFTF boys,
            > affirm:

            >> If some thing really
            >> is more than a few
            >> thousand years old,
            >> then the God we believe
            >> in, as represented in
            >> the Bible, does not exist.

            > Affirmed: David P. Brown

            The Boys:

            > Affirmed: Wayne Coats
            > Affirmed: Dub McClish
            > Affirmed: Harrell Davidson

            > Affirmed: Daniel Denham
            > Affirmed: Don DeLong
            > Affirmed: Doug Post
            > Affirmed: Dennis Francis
            > Affirmed: Daniel Coe
            > Affirmed: Keith Sisman
            > Affirmed: Richard Mansel
            > Affirmed: Robin Haley
            > Affirmed: Ken Chumbley
            > Affirmed: Kent Bailey
            > Affirmed: Jerry Brewer
            > Affirmed: Roelff Ruffner
            > Affirmed: Denny Durigan
            > Affirmed: Geoff Litke
            > Affirmed: Daniel Douglas
            > Affirmed: Tim Smith
            > Affirmed: Donald Canny
            > Affirmed: Wayne Blake
            > Affirmed: Bill Rainey
            > Affirmed: Denny Wilson
            > Affirmed: Jimmie Z. Gribble
            > Affirmed: Charles Wallace
            > Affirmed: Robert Collier
            > Affirmed: Michael Wilk
            > Affirmed: Roger Zink
            > Affirmed: Donald Mash
            > Affirmed: Charles Broyles
            > Affirmed: Brian Reagan
            > Affirmed: Richie Baker
            > Affirmed: Gilbert Gough
            > Affirmed: John Miler
            > Affirmed: Kevin Townsend
            > Affirmed: Justin Guess
            > Affirmed: David Hammer
            > Affirmed: Donald R. Fox
            > Affirmed: Johnny Kelton
            > Affirmed: Bruce Stulting
            > Affirmed: Bradley S. Cobb
            > Affirmed: Joe Gannotti
            > Affirmed: Chuck Newell
            > Affirmed: Bill Schwegler
            > Affirmed: Val Jamison
            > Affirmed: Robert Foster
            > Affirmed: Lynn Parker
            > Affirmed: Weldon Blake
            > Affirmed: Dale Miller
            > Affirmed: Jack L. Burch
            > Affirmed: Cody Westbrook
            > Affirmed: "et al"

            If the above is not a correct and accurate description of the position they have been implicitly prosecuting lately, they should respond directly to this list and state
            explicitly their true position on what they believe the consequence is regarding their position IF some thing really is more than a few thousand years old.

            They will then have their name removed from the above and placed appropriately on the legitimate affirmative position as indicated by their response and their explicit denial of the above affirmative.

            In order to respond directly to this list, they simply need to address their e-mail to:

            Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

            Sincerely,
            Robert Baty

            P.S. If anyone knows of any public claims (i.e., with Internet links) by the above noted individuals whereby they effectively deny the above affirmative statement, please forward such verifiable references and they will be considered for purposes of determining which individuals may disagree with David P. Brown and agree with me!

            -----------------------
            -----------------------



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • w_w_c_l
            ... That s mighty longsuffering of you, Robert. ... I think you ve overlooked John West -- but other than that your list seems to be complete. I think it s
            Message 5 of 26 , Jul 1 10:08 PM
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              --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
              "Robert Baty" <rlbaty@...> wrote:
              >
              > (In the spirit of good faith and cooperation,
              > the July 2, 2007 deadline has been extended
              > indefinitely. It's just too important of a
              > public issue not to allow David P. Brown and
              > his boys a continuing opportunity to explicitly
              > express what they have implied as to their
              > position.)

              That's mighty longsuffering of you, Robert.

              > Following below is the proposition...
              >
              > > We, David P. Brown and
              > > the ContendingFTF boys,
              > > affirm:
              >
              > >> If some thing really
              > >> is more than a few
              > >> thousand years old,
              > >> then the God we believe
              > >> in, as represented in
              > >> the Bible, does not exist.
              >
              > > Affirmed: David P. Brown
              >
              > The Boys:
              >
              > > Affirmed: ...

              I think you've overlooked John West -- but
              other than that your list seems to be
              complete.

              I think it's quite gentlemanly of you to
              leave "the girls" out of it, by the way.
              They're probably embarrassed enough as it is.


              Rick
            • Robert Baty
              (I have been advised that the list omitted John West. This posting is to reflect the addition of the previously overlooked John West. As a courtesy to the
              Message 6 of 26 , Jul 2 6:26 AM
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                (I have been advised that the list omitted John West. This posting is to reflect the addition of the previously overlooked John West. As a courtesy to the women, they have not been considered as partipants in this study; the "girlie-men" described so aptly by Donald Canny, of the ContendingFTF list, are sufficient to represent the feminine side of things and they are properly included below.)

                In the spirit of good faith and cooperation, the July 2, 2007 deadline has been extended indefinitely. It's just too important of a public issue not to allow David P. Brown and his boys a continuing opportunity to explicitly express what they have implied as to their position.

                Following below is the proposition, Thomas B. Warren-like, that is still on the table for David P. Brown to take up in the proposed
                formal, in writing, for the record discussion.

                David P. Brown should also proceed to negotiate in good faith in order to "get it on", formally, in writing or orally, and for the record.

                Here it is, the indicated affirmative position held by David P. Brown and his boys:

                > We, David P. Brown and
                > the ContendingFTF boys,
                > affirm:

                >> If some thing really
                >> is more than a few
                >> thousand years old,
                >> then the God we believe
                >> in, as represented in
                >> the Bible, does not exist.

                > Affirmed: David P. Brown

                The Boys:

                > Affirmed: Wayne Coats
                > Affirmed: Dub McClish
                > Affirmed: Harrell Davidson

                > Affirmed: John West
                > Affirmed: Daniel Denham
                > Affirmed: Don DeLong
                > Affirmed: Doug Post
                > Affirmed: Dennis Francis
                > Affirmed: Daniel Coe
                > Affirmed: Keith Sisman
                > Affirmed: Richard Mansel
                > Affirmed: Robin Haley
                > Affirmed: Ken Chumbley
                > Affirmed: Kent Bailey
                > Affirmed: Jerry Brewer
                > Affirmed: Roelff Ruffner
                > Affirmed: Denny Durigan
                > Affirmed: Geoff Litke
                > Affirmed: Daniel Douglas
                > Affirmed: Tim Smith
                > Affirmed: Donald Canny
                > Affirmed: Wayne Blake
                > Affirmed: Bill Rainey
                > Affirmed: Denny Wilson
                > Affirmed: Jimmie Z. Gribble
                > Affirmed: Charles Wallace
                > Affirmed: Robert Collier
                > Affirmed: Michael Wilk
                > Affirmed: Roger Zink
                > Affirmed: Donald Mash
                > Affirmed: Charles Broyles
                > Affirmed: Brian Reagan
                > Affirmed: Richie Baker
                > Affirmed: Gilbert Gough
                > Affirmed: John Miler
                > Affirmed: Kevin Townsend
                > Affirmed: Justin Guess
                > Affirmed: David Hammer
                > Affirmed: Donald R. Fox
                > Affirmed: Johnny Kelton
                > Affirmed: Bruce Stulting
                > Affirmed: Bradley S. Cobb
                > Affirmed: Joe Gannotti
                > Affirmed: Chuck Newell
                > Affirmed: Bill Schwegler
                > Affirmed: Val Jamison
                > Affirmed: Robert Foster
                > Affirmed: Lynn Parker
                > Affirmed: Weldon Blake
                > Affirmed: Dale Miller
                > Affirmed: Jack L. Burch
                > Affirmed: Cody Westbrook
                > Affirmed: "et al"

                If the above is not a correct and accurate description of the position they have been implicitly prosecuting lately, they should respond directly to this list and state
                explicitly their true position on what they believe the consequence is regarding their position IF some thing really is more than a few thousand years old.

                They will then have their name removed from the above and placed appropriately on the legitimate affirmative position as indicated by their response and their explicit denial of the above affirmative.

                In order to respond directly to this list, they simply need to address their e-mail to:

                Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

                Sincerely,
                Robert Baty

                P.S. If anyone knows of any public claims (i.e., with Internet links) by the above noted individuals whereby they effectively deny the above affirmative statement, please forward such verifiable references and they will be considered for purposes of determining which individuals may disagree with David P. Brown and agree with me!

                -----------------------
                -----------------------






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Robert Baty
                (To date, there hasn t been any evidence shown that there is a man on the ContendingFTF list, including its owner, who will come out and explicitly state
                Message 7 of 26 , Jul 2 6:55 PM
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                  (To date, there hasn't been any evidence shown that there is a "man" on the ContendingFTF list, including its owner, who will "come out" and explicitly state for the record whether or not they agree with the implicit position espoused by the owner and his boys on that list.)

                  In the spirit of good faith and cooperation, the July 2, 2007 deadline has been extended indefinitely.

                  It's just too important of a public issue not to allow David P. Brown and his boys a continuing opportunity to explicitly express what they have implied as to their position.

                  David P. Brown, or his surrogate champion, should proceed to negotiate in good faith in order to "get it on", formally, in writing or orally, and for the record.

                  Following below is the proposition, Thomas B. Warren-like, that is still on the table for David P. Brown to take up in the proposed
                  formal, in writing, for the record discussion:


                  > We, David P. Brown and
                  > the ContendingFTF boys,
                  > affirm:

                  >> If some thing really
                  >> is more than a few
                  >> thousand years old,
                  >> then the God we believe
                  >> in, as represented in
                  >> the Bible, does not exist.

                  > Affirmed: David P. Brown

                  The Boys:

                  > Affirmed: Wayne Coats
                  > Affirmed: Dub McClish
                  > Affirmed: Harrell Davidson

                  > Affirmed: John West
                  > Affirmed: Daniel Denham
                  > Affirmed: Don DeLong
                  > Affirmed: Doug Post
                  > Affirmed: Dennis Francis
                  > Affirmed: Daniel Coe
                  > Affirmed: Keith Sisman
                  > Affirmed: Richard Mansel
                  > Affirmed: Robin Haley
                  > Affirmed: Ken Chumbley
                  > Affirmed: Kent Bailey
                  > Affirmed: Jerry Brewer
                  > Affirmed: Roelff Ruffner
                  > Affirmed: Denny Durigan
                  > Affirmed: Geoff Litke
                  > Affirmed: Daniel Douglas
                  > Affirmed: Tim Smith
                  > Affirmed: Donald Canny
                  > Affirmed: Wayne Blake
                  > Affirmed: Bill Rainey
                  > Affirmed: Denny Wilson
                  > Affirmed: Jimmie Z. Gribble
                  > Affirmed: Charles Wallace
                  > Affirmed: Robert Collier
                  > Affirmed: Michael Wilk
                  > Affirmed: Roger Zink
                  > Affirmed: Donald Mash
                  > Affirmed: Charles Broyles
                  > Affirmed: Brian Reagan
                  > Affirmed: Richie Baker
                  > Affirmed: Gilbert Gough
                  > Affirmed: John Miler
                  > Affirmed: Kevin Townsend
                  > Affirmed: Justin Guess
                  > Affirmed: David Hammer
                  > Affirmed: Donald R. Fox
                  > Affirmed: Johnny Kelton
                  > Affirmed: Bruce Stulting
                  > Affirmed: Bradley S. Cobb
                  > Affirmed: Joe Gannotti
                  > Affirmed: Chuck Newell
                  > Affirmed: Bill Schwegler
                  > Affirmed: Val Jamison
                  > Affirmed: Robert Foster
                  > Affirmed: Lynn Parker
                  > Affirmed: Weldon Blake
                  > Affirmed: Dale Miller
                  > Affirmed: Jack L. Burch
                  > Affirmed: Cody Westbrook
                  > Affirmed: "et al"

                  If the above is not a correct and accurate description of the position they have been implicitly prosecuting lately, they should respond directly to this list and state
                  explicitly their true position on what they believe the consequence is regarding their position IF some thing really is more than a few thousand years old.

                  They will then have their name removed from the above and placed appropriately on the legitimate affirmative position as indicated by their response and their explicit denial of the above affirmative.

                  In order to respond directly to this list, they simply need to address their e-mail to:

                  Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert Baty

                  P.S. If anyone knows of any public claims (i.e., with Internet links) by the above noted individuals whereby they effectively deny the above affirmative statement, please forward such verifiable references and they will be considered for purposes of determining which individuals may disagree with David P. Brown and agree with me!

                  -----------------------
                  -----------------------



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • rlbaty50
                  Daniel Denham is most recently suggesting that it would be immoral for David P. Brown and his boys, including Daniel Denham, to explicitly admit or deny the
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jul 3 7:32 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Daniel Denham is most recently suggesting that it would be immoral
                    for David P. Brown and his boys, including Daniel Denham, to
                    explicitly admit or deny the propriety of my representation of their
                    position as shown below. Daniel Denham further is suggesting that,
                    as for himself, he cannot be morally influenced to admit explicitly
                    what his position is on this simple, yet important, public issue.

                    That's good to know, but it is disappointing to see what are supposed
                    to be grown men so clearly evade the issue and insist on remaining in
                    hiding on the ContendingFTF list.

                    To date, there hasn't been any evidence shown that there is a "man"
                    on the ContendingFTF list, including its owner, who will "come out"
                    and explicitly state for the record whether or not they agree with
                    the implicit position espoused by the owner and his boys on that list.

                    In the spirit of good faith and cooperation, the July 2, 2007
                    deadline has been extended indefinitely.

                    It's just too important of a public issue not to allow David P. Brown
                    and his boys a continuing opportunity to explicitly express what they
                    have implied as to their position.

                    David P. Brown, or his surrogate champion, should proceed to
                    negotiate in good faith in order to "get it on", formally, in writing
                    or orally, and for the record.

                    Following below is the proposition, Thomas B. Warren-like, that is
                    still on the table for David P. Brown to take up in the proposed
                    formal, in writing, for the record discussion:

                    > We, David P. Brown and
                    > the ContendingFTF boys,
                    > affirm:

                    >> If some thing really
                    >> is more than a few
                    >> thousand years old,
                    >> then the God we believe
                    >> in, as represented in
                    >> the Bible, does not exist.

                    > Affirmed: David P. Brown

                    The Boys:

                    > Affirmed: Wayne Coats
                    > Affirmed: Dub McClish
                    > Affirmed: Harrell Davidson

                    > Affirmed: John West
                    > Affirmed: Daniel Denham
                    > Affirmed: Don DeLong
                    > Affirmed: Doug Post
                    > Affirmed: Dennis Francis
                    > Affirmed: Daniel Coe
                    > Affirmed: Keith Sisman
                    > Affirmed: Richard Mansel
                    > Affirmed: Robin Haley
                    > Affirmed: Ken Chumbley
                    > Affirmed: Kent Bailey
                    > Affirmed: Jerry Brewer
                    > Affirmed: Roelff Ruffner
                    > Affirmed: Denny Durigan
                    > Affirmed: Geoff Litke
                    > Affirmed: Daniel Douglas
                    > Affirmed: Tim Smith
                    > Affirmed: Donald Canny
                    > Affirmed: Wayne Blake
                    > Affirmed: Bill Rainey
                    > Affirmed: Denny Wilson
                    > Affirmed: Jimmie Z. Gribble
                    > Affirmed: Charles Wallace
                    > Affirmed: Robert Collier
                    > Affirmed: Michael Wilk
                    > Affirmed: Roger Zink
                    > Affirmed: Donald Mash
                    > Affirmed: Charles Broyles
                    > Affirmed: Brian Reagan
                    > Affirmed: Richie Baker
                    > Affirmed: Gilbert Gough
                    > Affirmed: John Miler
                    > Affirmed: Kevin Townsend
                    > Affirmed: Justin Guess
                    > Affirmed: David Hammer
                    > Affirmed: Donald R. Fox
                    > Affirmed: Johnny Kelton
                    > Affirmed: Bruce Stulting
                    > Affirmed: Bradley S. Cobb
                    > Affirmed: Joe Gannotti
                    > Affirmed: Chuck Newell
                    > Affirmed: Bill Schwegler
                    > Affirmed: Val Jamison
                    > Affirmed: Robert Foster
                    > Affirmed: Lynn Parker
                    > Affirmed: Weldon Blake
                    > Affirmed: Dale Miller
                    > Affirmed: Jack L. Burch
                    > Affirmed: Cody Westbrook
                    > Affirmed: "et al"

                    If the above is not a correct and accurate description of the
                    position they have been implicitly prosecuting lately, they should
                    respond directly to this list and state explicitly their true
                    position on what they believe the consequence is regarding their
                    position IF some thing really is more than a few thousand years old.

                    They will then have their name removed from the above and placed
                    appropriately on the legitimate affirmative position as indicated by
                    their response and their explicit denial of the above affirmative.

                    In order to respond directly to this list, they simply need to
                    address their e-mail to:

                    Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

                    Sincerely,
                    Robert Baty

                    P.S. If anyone knows of any public claims (i.e., with Internet links)
                    by the above noted individuals whereby they effectively deny the
                    above affirmative statement, please forward such verifiable
                    references and they will be considered for purposes of determining
                    which individuals may disagree with David P. Brown
                    and agree with me!

                    -----------------------
                    -----------------------
                  • Robert Baty
                    (Updated to remove Cody Westbrook s name from the list. While believing the earth is only a few thousand years old, Cody does not want to take a position on
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jul 3 9:17 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      (Updated to remove Cody Westbrook's name from the list. While believing the earth is only a few thousand years old, Cody does not want to take a position on what the consequence might be "IF" the earth were more than a few thousand years old. He specifically does not want to join with David P. Brown and his boys in affirming the following proposition/argument.)

                      Daniel Denham is most recently suggesting that it would be immoral for David P. Brown and his boys, including Daniel Denham, to explicitly admit or deny the propriety of my representation of their
                      position as shown below. Daniel Denham further is suggesting that, as for himself, he cannot be morally influenced to admit explicitly what his position is on this simple, yet important, public issue.

                      That's good to know, but it is disappointing to see what are supposed to be grown men so clearly evade the issue and insist on remaining in hiding on the ContendingFTF list.

                      To date, there hasn't been any evidence shown that there is a "man" on the ContendingFTF list, including its owner, who will "come out" and explicitly state for the record whether or not they agree with
                      the implicit position espoused by the owner and his boys on that list.

                      David P. Brown, or his surrogate champion, should proceed to negotiate in good faith in order to "get it on", formally, in writing
                      or orally, and for the record.

                      Following below is the proposition, Thomas B. Warren-like, that is still on the table for David P. Brown to take up in the proposed
                      formal, in writing, for the record discussion:

                      > We, David P. Brown and
                      > the ContendingFTF boys,
                      > affirm:

                      >> If some thing really
                      >> is more than a few
                      >> thousand years old,
                      >> then the God we believe
                      >> in, as represented in
                      >> the Bible, does not exist.

                      > Affirmed: David P. Brown

                      The Boys:

                      > Affirmed: Wayne Coats
                      > Affirmed: Dub McClish
                      > Affirmed: Harrell Davidson

                      > Affirmed: John West
                      > Affirmed: Daniel Denham
                      > Affirmed: Don DeLong
                      > Affirmed: Doug Post
                      > Affirmed: Dennis Francis
                      > Affirmed: Daniel Coe
                      > Affirmed: Keith Sisman
                      > Affirmed: Richard Mansel
                      > Affirmed: Robin Haley
                      > Affirmed: Ken Chumbley
                      > Affirmed: Kent Bailey
                      > Affirmed: Jerry Brewer
                      > Affirmed: Roelff Ruffner
                      > Affirmed: Denny Durigan
                      > Affirmed: Geoff Litke
                      > Affirmed: Daniel Douglas
                      > Affirmed: Tim Smith
                      > Affirmed: Donald Canny
                      > Affirmed: Wayne Blake
                      > Affirmed: Bill Rainey
                      > Affirmed: Denny Wilson
                      > Affirmed: Jimmie Z. Gribble
                      > Affirmed: Charles Wallace
                      > Affirmed: Robert Collier
                      > Affirmed: Michael Wilk
                      > Affirmed: Roger Zink
                      > Affirmed: Donald Mash
                      > Affirmed: Charles Broyles
                      > Affirmed: Brian Reagan
                      > Affirmed: Richie Baker
                      > Affirmed: Gilbert Gough
                      > Affirmed: John Miler
                      > Affirmed: Kevin Townsend
                      > Affirmed: Justin Guess
                      > Affirmed: David Hammer
                      > Affirmed: Donald R. Fox
                      > Affirmed: Johnny Kelton
                      > Affirmed: Bruce Stulting
                      > Affirmed: Bradley S. Cobb
                      > Affirmed: Joe Gannotti
                      > Affirmed: Chuck Newell
                      > Affirmed: Bill Schwegler
                      > Affirmed: Val Jamison
                      > Affirmed: Robert Foster
                      > Affirmed: Lynn Parker
                      > Affirmed: Weldon Blake
                      > Affirmed: Dale Miller
                      > Affirmed: Jack L. Burch
                      > Affirmed: "et al"

                      If the above is not a correct and accurate description of the position they have been implicitly prosecuting lately, they should
                      respond directly to this list and state explicitly their true position on what they believe the consequence is regarding their
                      position IF some thing really is more than a few thousand years old.

                      They will then have their name removed from the above and placed appropriately on the legitimate affirmative position as indicated by their response and their explicit denial of the above affirmative.

                      In order to respond directly to this list, they simply need to address their e-mail to:

                      Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

                      Sincerely,
                      Robert Baty

                      P.S. If anyone knows of any public claims (i.e., with Internet links) by the above noted individuals whereby they effectively deny the above affirmative statement, please forward such verifiable references and they will be considered for purposes of determining which individuals may disagree with David P. Brown and agree with me!

                      -----------------------
                      -----------------------



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Robert Baty
                      (Daniel Denham is again making like he can t find the table over here. So, here it is again for reference and response in prepartation of the proposal formal,
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jul 5 4:28 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        (Daniel Denham is again making like he can't find the table over here. So, here it is again for reference and response in prepartation of the proposal formal, in writing or orally, for the record discussion.)

                        To date, there hasn't been any evidence shown that there is a "man" on the ContendingFTF list, including its owner, who will "come out" and explicitly state for the record whether or not they agree with
                        the implicit position espoused by the owner and his boys on that list.

                        David P. Brown, or his surrogate champion, should proceed to negotiate in good faith in order to "get it on", formally, in writing
                        or orally, and for the record.

                        Following below is the proposition, Thomas B. Warren-like, that is still on the table for David P. Brown to take up in the proposed
                        formal, in writing, for the record discussion:

                        > We, David P. Brown and
                        > the ContendingFTF boys,
                        > affirm:

                        >> If some thing really
                        >> is more than a few
                        >> thousand years old,
                        >> then the God we believe
                        >> in, as represented in
                        >> the Bible, does not exist.

                        > Affirmed: David P. Brown

                        The Boys:

                        > Affirmed: Wayne Coats
                        > Affirmed: Dub McClish
                        > Affirmed: Harrell Davidson

                        > Affirmed: John West
                        > Affirmed: Daniel Denham
                        > Affirmed: Don DeLong
                        > Affirmed: Doug Post
                        > Affirmed: Dennis Francis
                        > Affirmed: Daniel Coe
                        > Affirmed: Keith Sisman
                        > Affirmed: Richard Mansel
                        > Affirmed: Robin Haley
                        > Affirmed: Ken Chumbley
                        > Affirmed: Kent Bailey
                        > Affirmed: Jerry Brewer
                        > Affirmed: Roelff Ruffner
                        > Affirmed: Denny Durigan
                        > Affirmed: Geoff Litke
                        > Affirmed: Daniel Douglas
                        > Affirmed: Tim Smith
                        > Affirmed: Donald Canny
                        > Affirmed: Wayne Blake
                        > Affirmed: Bill Rainey
                        > Affirmed: Denny Wilson
                        > Affirmed: Jimmie Z. Gribble
                        > Affirmed: Charles Wallace
                        > Affirmed: Robert Collier
                        > Affirmed: Michael Wilk
                        > Affirmed: Roger Zink
                        > Affirmed: Donald Mash
                        > Affirmed: Charles Broyles
                        > Affirmed: Brian Reagan
                        > Affirmed: Richie Baker
                        > Affirmed: Gilbert Gough
                        > Affirmed: John Miler
                        > Affirmed: Kevin Townsend
                        > Affirmed: Justin Guess
                        > Affirmed: David Hammer
                        > Affirmed: Donald R. Fox
                        > Affirmed: Johnny Kelton
                        > Affirmed: Bruce Stulting
                        > Affirmed: Bradley S. Cobb
                        > Affirmed: Joe Gannotti
                        > Affirmed: Chuck Newell
                        > Affirmed: Bill Schwegler
                        > Affirmed: Val Jamison
                        > Affirmed: Robert Foster
                        > Affirmed: Lynn Parker
                        > Affirmed: Weldon Blake
                        > Affirmed: Dale Miller
                        > Affirmed: Jack L. Burch
                        > Affirmed: "et al"

                        If the above is not a correct and accurate description of the position they have been implicitly prosecuting lately, they should
                        respond directly to this list and state explicitly their true position on what they believe the consequence is regarding their
                        position IF some thing really is more than a few thousand years old.

                        They will then have their name removed from the above and placed appropriately on the legitimate affirmative position as indicated by their response and their explicit denial of the above affirmative.

                        In order to respond directly to this list, they simply need to address their e-mail to:

                        Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

                        Sincerely,
                        Robert Baty

                        P.S. If anyone knows of any public claims (i.e., with Internet links) by the above noted individuals whereby they effectively deny the above affirmative statement, please forward such verifiable references and they will be considered for purposes of determining which individuals may disagree with David P. Brown and agree with me!

                        -----------------------
                        -----------------------





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • w_w_c_l
                        To the ContendingFTF list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ContendingFTF/message/7422 Daniel Denham writes: Challenge Still On The Table ... Why are Robert and
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jul 5 8:37 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          To the ContendingFTF list
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ContendingFTF/message/7422

                          Daniel Denham writes:


                          Challenge Still On The Table


                          > List,
                          >
                          > It has been a few days since Robert Baty, Todd Greene,
                          > and/or Rick Hartzog popped out of their hidey-hole to
                          > approach the subject of debate on the existence of God.
                          >
                          > The challenge to Todd, who is the "champion" for Baty
                          > and Hartzog, is still on the table. Where are they?
                          > Wherever they're hiding, they obviously do not wish to
                          > deal with the most important issue or subject man has
                          > ever had to contemplate -- the question of the existence
                          > of God.
                          >
                          > If God does not exist, as Todd claims, then everything
                          > is academic. Nothing really matters, and there are no
                          > real, objective moral absolutes: for no real, objective
                          > moral standard would exist. But if God does exist, which
                          > is the truth, then the Three Stooges of Todd, Baty, and
                          > Hartzog are in real trouble.
                          >
                          > Daniel Denham


                          Why are Robert and Rick in trouble?

                          Let it be once again noted that the only reason David
                          P. Brown and his little amanuensis, Daniel Denham, want
                          to pretend they are interested in debating the existence
                          of God is because they are so ashamed of their inability
                          to defend their young-earth doctrine.

                          Todd is the "champion" for Robert and Rick on the following
                          proposition, of which Daniel Denham is fully aware:

                          > We, David P. Brown and
                          > the ContendingFTF boys,
                          > affirm:

                          >> If some thing really
                          >> is more than a few
                          >> thousand years old,
                          >> then the God we believe
                          >> in, as represented in
                          >> the Bible, does not exist.

                          > Affirm: David P. Brown??
                          > Affirm: "the boys"??

                          {> Deny: Robert Baty}
                          {> Deny: Rick Hartzog}


                          This proposition was last posted by Robert Baty on
                          July 4 at 6:17 am. It has been posted repeatedly,
                          not only here on the Maury_and_Baty list but now on
                          Daniel Coe's "Religious Debates" list as well.

                          Where is David P. Brown? Where are "the boys"?

                          Why have they not shown up over here on this wide
                          open, easily accessible "hidey-hole" to accept the
                          proposition and finalize the arrangements for a
                          public, written, for-the-record debate?

                          The proposition was again posted on July 5 at 6:28 am:


                          > We, David P. Brown and
                          > the ContendingFTF boys,
                          > affirm:

                          >> If some thing really
                          >> is more than a few
                          >> thousand years old,
                          >> then the God we believe
                          >> in, as represented in
                          >> the Bible, does not exist.

                          > Affirm: David P. Brown??
                          > Affirm: "the boys"??

                          {> Deny: Robert Baty}
                          {> Deny: Rick Hartzog}


                          Where is David P. Brown? Where are "the boys"?

                          What seems to be the big hold-up?

                          Is there something about the proposition they don't
                          like? That *is* their position, isn't it? Isn't
                          that exactly what they have been "implicitly" claiming
                          all along -- that if the Universe and everything in it,
                          including the Earth, is not less than a few thousand
                          years old then the whole thing is "academic"?

                          It sure is!

                          As David P. Brown, Daniel Denham, Donald Canny and
                          several others have asked, "Why will they not defend
                          what they profess so earnestly to believe?"

                          We wonder!

                          As Daniel Denham now writes:

                          > Wherever they're hiding, they obviously do not wish to
                          > deal with the most important issue or subject man has
                          > ever had to contemplate -- the question of the existence
                          > of God.

                          Come on out, David P. Brown! Come on out, "boys"!

                          You claim that yours, and yours alone, is the faith that
                          was once delivered to the saints. Now *contend* for it!


                          Earnestly,

                          Rick Hartzog
                          Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism



                          --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
                          "Robert Baty" <rlbaty@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > (Daniel Denham is again making like he can't find the table over
                          here. So, here it is again for reference and response in
                          prepartation of the proposal formal, in writing or orally, for the
                          record discussion.)
                          >
                          > To date, there hasn't been any evidence shown that there is a "man"
                          on the ContendingFTF list, including its owner, who will "come out"
                          and explicitly state for the record whether or not they agree with
                          > the implicit position espoused by the owner and his boys on that
                          list.
                          >
                          > David P. Brown, or his surrogate champion, should proceed to
                          negotiate in good faith in order to "get it on", formally, in writing
                          > or orally, and for the record.
                          >
                          > Following below is the proposition, Thomas B. Warren-like, that is
                          still on the table for David P. Brown to take up in the proposed
                          > formal, in writing, for the record discussion:
                          >
                          > > We, David P. Brown and
                          > > the ContendingFTF boys,
                          > > affirm:
                          >
                          > >> If some thing really
                          > >> is more than a few
                          > >> thousand years old,
                          > >> then the God we believe
                          > >> in, as represented in
                          > >> the Bible, does not exist.
                          >
                          > > Affirmed: David P. Brown
                          >
                          > The Boys:
                          >
                          > > Affirmed: Wayne Coats
                          > > Affirmed: Dub McClish
                          > > Affirmed: Harrell Davidson
                          >
                          > > Affirmed: John West
                          > > Affirmed: Daniel Denham
                          > > Affirmed: Don DeLong
                          > > Affirmed: Doug Post
                          > > Affirmed: Dennis Francis
                          > > Affirmed: Daniel Coe
                          > > Affirmed: Keith Sisman
                          > > Affirmed: Richard Mansel
                          > > Affirmed: Robin Haley
                          > > Affirmed: Ken Chumbley
                          > > Affirmed: Kent Bailey
                          > > Affirmed: Jerry Brewer
                          > > Affirmed: Roelff Ruffner
                          > > Affirmed: Denny Durigan
                          > > Affirmed: Geoff Litke
                          > > Affirmed: Daniel Douglas
                          > > Affirmed: Tim Smith
                          > > Affirmed: Donald Canny
                          > > Affirmed: Wayne Blake
                          > > Affirmed: Bill Rainey
                          > > Affirmed: Denny Wilson
                          > > Affirmed: Jimmie Z. Gribble
                          > > Affirmed: Charles Wallace
                          > > Affirmed: Robert Collier
                          > > Affirmed: Michael Wilk
                          > > Affirmed: Roger Zink
                          > > Affirmed: Donald Mash
                          > > Affirmed: Charles Broyles
                          > > Affirmed: Brian Reagan
                          > > Affirmed: Richie Baker
                          > > Affirmed: Gilbert Gough
                          > > Affirmed: John Miler
                          > > Affirmed: Kevin Townsend
                          > > Affirmed: Justin Guess
                          > > Affirmed: David Hammer
                          > > Affirmed: Donald R. Fox
                          > > Affirmed: Johnny Kelton
                          > > Affirmed: Bruce Stulting
                          > > Affirmed: Bradley S. Cobb
                          > > Affirmed: Joe Gannotti
                          > > Affirmed: Chuck Newell
                          > > Affirmed: Bill Schwegler
                          > > Affirmed: Val Jamison
                          > > Affirmed: Robert Foster
                          > > Affirmed: Lynn Parker
                          > > Affirmed: Weldon Blake
                          > > Affirmed: Dale Miller
                          > > Affirmed: Jack L. Burch
                          > > Affirmed: "et al"
                          >
                          > If the above is not a correct and accurate description of the
                          position they have been implicitly prosecuting lately, they should
                          > respond directly to this list and state explicitly their true
                          position on what they believe the consequence is regarding their
                          > position IF some thing really is more than a few thousand years old.
                          >
                          > They will then have their name removed from the above and placed
                          appropriately on the legitimate affirmative position as indicated by
                          their response and their explicit denial of the above affirmative.
                          >
                          > In order to respond directly to this list, they simply need to
                          address their e-mail to:
                          >
                          > Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Sincerely,
                          > Robert Baty
                          >
                          > P.S. If anyone knows of any public claims (i.e., with Internet
                          links) by the above noted individuals whereby they effectively deny
                          the above affirmative statement, please forward such verifiable
                          references and they will be considered for purposes of determining
                          which individuals may disagree with David P. Brown and agree with me!
                          >
                          > -----------------------
                          > -----------------------
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Todd S. Greene
                          ... That s Lie #1 by Daniel. All you have to do is look at the Maury_and_Baty discussion group to see that this is not just a lie by Daniel, but it s
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jul 5 1:00 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In ContendingFTF, Daniel Denham wrote (post #7422):
                            > It has been a few days

                            That's Lie #1 by Daniel.

                            All you have to do is look at the "Maury_and_Baty" discussion group
                            to see that this is not just a lie by Daniel, but it's extremely
                            blatant.

                            > since Robert Baty,
                            > Todd Greene, and/or Rick Hartzog popped out of their
                            > hidey-hole

                            It isn't a hidey-hole. It is the Contending For Tendentious Fallacies
                            guys who have discussion groups that are purposely closed, because
                            they have the three monkeys syndrome (self-imposed blindness,
                            deafness, and dumbness). They NEED their little self-created insular
                            world to try to minimize the cognitive dissonance. Quite contrary to
                            that, the "Maury_and_Baty" discussion group is an open discussion
                            group.

                            So that's Lie #2 by Daniel.

                            > to approach the
                            > subject of debate on the existence of God.

                            While Robert and Rick have both made tangential comments about
                            atheism, neither one of them are involved in discussing the subject
                            of atheism, but are discussing other topics. I'm the only one
                            discussing the subject of atheism, and the only reason this subject
                            was brought up in the first place is because Daniel Denham and some
                            of the other Contending For Tendentious Fallacies deliberately used
                            bluffing blustering comments about atheism debate as a diversionary
                            rhetorical tactic to CHANGE THE SUBJECT because they are so
                            embarassed about their own belief in young earth creationism they
                            wanted to run away from discussing it. (And don't think Don DeLong
                            has done anything of the sort, because he has not in any way
                            discussed the scientific failures of young earth creationism either.)

                            So Daniel's comment tying Robert and Rick to discussion of atheism is
                            Lie #3.

                            > The challenge to
                            > Todd, who is the "champion" for Baty and Hartzog,

                            I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean. Going by his
                            record, I strongly suspect this is lie #4 but I'm just not sure yet,
                            so we'll call this one Lie #4(alpha).

                            > is still on the table. Where are they?

                            There is no "they." Robert and Rick are not discussing the subject of
                            atheism. So this is Lie #4.

                            > Wherever they're hiding,

                            This is Lie #5.

                            I'm not hiding anywhere. Indeed, I'm the one who made the last
                            contributions to the discussion of atheism,

                            Re: The "Transcendental Argument" for God
                            by Todd Greene (July 1, 2007)
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10935

                            pointing out numerous errors and fallacies (and lies) made by Daniel
                            Denham, and we've been waiting patiently for Daniel to return with
                            some kind of response attempting to deal with the many problems
                            pointed out, but he has failed to respond to that post of mine.

                            So now we see that Daniel's "response" is to RUN AWAY from the
                            discussion by simply lying to everyone to pretend that I'm the one
                            who ran away from the discussion.

                            Oh, yes, Daniel seriously loves this particular lie. He uses it all
                            the time. Rather than even try to deal with the arguments and
                            criticisms presented to him, he runs from them by deceitfully
                            pretending they don't exist. We seriously do not think Daniel has
                            Alzheimer's disease or is quite this incredibly stupid, it's just
                            that his lies make it appear this way.

                            Note that I also wrote this related post

                            Comments on theism/atheism, young earth creationism debate
                            by Todd Greene (July 1, 2007)
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10938

                            that no one in the Contending For Tendentious Fallacies group has
                            acknowledged the existence of either.

                            > they obviously do
                            > not wish to deal with the most important issue or subject
                            > man has ever had to contemplate -- the question of the
                            > existence of God.

                            A deceitful statement based on the lie just pointed out.

                            Again, I've been discussing the subject. The ball is in Daniel's
                            court. But rather than deal with it we see he has now chosen to
                            ignore my discussion and then lie to everyone by pretending I haven't
                            been discussing it.

                            > If God does not
                            > exist, as Todd claims, then everything is academic.

                            This is just a stupid statement. Actions have consequences,
                            regardless of a person's religious beliefs. If you eat food, you
                            live. If you don't eat food, after awhile you die. If you drink
                            poison, it will kill you. If you jump off a cliff, gravity works the
                            same for EVERYONE, regardless of a person's religious beliefs or lack
                            of them.

                            This point has been made to Daniel previously, numerous times. But we
                            see here that he has chosen to deliberately ignore this point. This
                            is because he is incapable of dealing with reality in his rhetoric.
                            His position is a fantasy, which is why adherence to his fantasy
                            requires him to make stuff up all the time.

                            > Nothing really matters,

                            As just pointed out, this is a false statement.

                            > and there are
                            > no real, objective moral absolutes: for no real, objective
                            > moral standard would exist.

                            Morality is only as objective as the objective consequences of
                            actions in the real world.

                            Notice that Daniel himself is demonstrating for us HIS so-
                            called "objective" morality, which consists in lying to people and
                            making up his own human-imposed rules based on his unjustified (and
                            false) fantasies and his head.

                            > But if God
                            > does exist, which is the truth, then the Three Stooges of
                            > Todd, Baty, and Hartzog are in real trouble.

                            Here we see Daniel again stating one lie based on his previous lie of
                            tying Robert and Rick into atheism. Robert and Rick are not atheists,
                            pure and simple. Every single time Daniel pretends otherwise he is
                            lying.

                            So this is lie #6.

                            In regard to the relevance of belief in God to empirical facts,
                            everyone knows that NO MATTER WHAT A PERSON BELIEVES ABOUT ANY GOD(S)
                            THE EMPIRICAL FACTS ARE THE SAME FOR EVERYONE. The Earth orbits the
                            Sun, not the other way around. The facts of geological science (such
                            as, for example, the specific physical geologic features observed at
                            the Grand Canyon) are what they are FOR EVERYONE, and whether they
                            like strawberry ice cream or hate it IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THE
                            FACTS. Whether a person believes in Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, or Ra
                            and Isis, or Allah, or Yahweh DOES NOT MAKE A BIT OF DIFFERENCE.

                            This specific point has been explicitly pointed out to Daniel
                            NUMEROUS TIMES, yet he completely ignores this point, and then states
                            lies based on his deliberately ignoring the facts.

                            So this makes Lie #7.

                            Daniel Denham is seriously afflicted with the three monkeys syndrome,
                            in which he himself covers his eyes, stops up his ears, and refuses
                            to tell the truth. This is how he demonstrates for everyone how his
                            position is completely incapable of dealing rationally with reality.

                            - Todd Greene
                          • Robert Baty
                            ... So ashamed are they of their position and their behavior, they won t even show up on their own Daniel Coe s ReligiousDebates list where my Goliath of
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jul 5 1:00 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Rick, you properly provided the context for your post with the following:

                              > Let it be once again noted
                              > that the only reason David
                              > P. Brown and his little
                              > amanuensis, Daniel Denham,
                              > want to pretend they are
                              > interested in debating the
                              > existence of God is because
                              > they are so ashamed of their
                              > inability to defend their
                              > young-earth doctrine.

                              We might add to that some specifics:

                              > Equivocation fallacy

                              > Seeing through the
                              > rungs of a ladder

                              > Genuine hypothetical syllogisms

                              > Donald Canny's Baty claim

                              > Fools

                              > "Goliath of GRAS"

                              > etc., etc., etc.,

                              So ashamed are they of their position and their behavior, they won't even show up on their own Daniel Coe's ReligiousDebates list where my "Goliath of GRAS" has been patiently awaiting the arrival of "one" of them!

                              I'll also repeat here, Rick, the following "on the table" proposal that David P. Brown has championed for his boys; which proposal Todd S. Greene has volunteered to take up in a formal, in writing or orally, for the record discussion:

                              > We, David P. Brown and
                              > the ContendingFTF boys,
                              > affirm:

                              >> If some thing really
                              >> is more than a few
                              >> thousand years old,
                              >> then the God we believe
                              >> in, as represented in
                              >> the Bible, does not exist.

                              > Affirm: David P. Brown
                              > Affirm: "Brown's boys" (see list)

                              > Deny: Robert Baty
                              > Deny: Rick Hartzog

                              Yep, David P. Brown and his boys are still under the table. We "plead" with them to "come out" and "let us reason TOGETHER".

                              Here's how I see the proposed discussion developing.

                              --------------------------

                              Todd S. Greene's argument as accepted by David P. Brown and his boys:

                              Major Premise:

                              > If some thing really is more
                              > than a few thousand years
                              > old, then the God David P.
                              > Brown and his boys believe
                              > in, as represented in the
                              > Bible, does not exist.

                              Minor Premise:

                              > Some thing really
                              > is more than a few
                              > thousand years old.

                              Conclusion:

                              > Therefore, the God David
                              > P. Brown and his boys
                              > believe in, as represented
                              > in the Bible, does not exist.

                              David P. Brown's argument as accepted by Todd S. Greene:

                              Major Premise:

                              > If some thing really is more
                              > than a few thousand years
                              > old, then the God we believe
                              > in, as represented in the
                              > Bible, does not exist.

                              Minor Premise:

                              > The God we believe in,
                              > as represented in the
                              > Bible, does exist.

                              Conclusion:

                              > Therefore, nothing is
                              > more than a few
                              > thousand years old.

                              ----------------------------

                              My further comments:

                              It couldn't get any better than that, could it!

                              Todd gets to deal with the evidence of age, and Brown gets his evidence of God issue to discuss (see minor premise of each argument).

                              Isn't that what they both wanted?

                              You are welcome! :o)

                              David P. Brown complained about his boys, and by implication his, inability to make an argument and/or deal with one when coming face to face with one.

                              We are inclined to agree as these discussions have shown.

                              I have, as the really good debaters have said, done half the work for them!

                              I've set forth the arguments for both sides!

                              You are welcome! :o)

                              Todd is prepared to proceed in negotiating the logistics for presenting the actual defense and rebuttal as to both sides; preferably in writing in order to insure the best presentations and the widest possible distribution of this "landmark" discussion.

                              Why do Daniel Denham, David P. Brown and the boys remain under the table?

                              Besides their inability to openly and honestly deal with their Dr. Fox position and inability to openly and honestly admit their real position regarding "young-earth, creation-science", it is because they know they are wrong!

                              David P. Brown was right in making a point to preach that, in such cases, neither he nor his boys are likely to be able to quit themselves like men and admit, explain and correct themselves.

                              (If that's not why Brown and the boys remain in hiding, then let them bring Brown out to champion their cause as has been represented here without a dissenting voice being heard.)

                              We "plead" with them still to "come out" and "let us reason TOGETHER".

                              Sincerely,
                              Robert Baty

                              P.S. I understand that I am only a facilitator in these unofficial discussions as to the proposed discussion between Todd S. Greene and David P. Brown. They are free to work out their own mutually agreeable propositions and logistics for any such discussion as might "evolve" from my feeble efforts.

                              For myself, and quite independent of Greene's position and Brown's position , I'm sticking with my "Goliath of GRAS", as I think Rick Hartzog is as well.

                              ----------------------
                              ----------------------



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • rlbaty50
                              Todd, Our posts just crossed in cyberspace. So, when you get a chance, you might want to comment on my latest proposals regarding arguments and propositions
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jul 5 1:11 PM
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                                Todd,

                                Our posts just crossed in cyberspace.

                                So, when you get a chance, you might want to comment on my latest
                                proposals regarding arguments and propositions for that discussion
                                with David P. Brown and my representation of you as related thereto.

                                Here's the link:

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/11000


                                Sincerely,
                                Robert Baty



                                --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com, "Todd S. Greene" <greeneto@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In ContendingFTF, Daniel Denham wrote (post #7422):
                                > > It has been a few days
                                >
                                > That's Lie #1 by Daniel.
                                >
                                > All you have to do is look at the "Maury_and_Baty" discussion group
                                > to see that this is not just a lie by Daniel, but it's extremely
                                > blatant.
                                >
                                > > since Robert Baty,
                                > > Todd Greene, and/or Rick Hartzog popped out of their
                                > > hidey-hole
                                >
                                > It isn't a hidey-hole. It is the Contending For Tendentious
                                Fallacies
                                > guys who have discussion groups that are purposely closed, because
                                > they have the three monkeys syndrome (self-imposed blindness,
                                > deafness, and dumbness). They NEED their little self-created insular
                                > world to try to minimize the cognitive dissonance. Quite contrary to
                                > that, the "Maury_and_Baty" discussion group is an open discussion
                                > group.
                                >
                                > So that's Lie #2 by Daniel.
                                >
                                > > to approach the
                                > > subject of debate on the existence of God.
                                >
                                > While Robert and Rick have both made tangential comments about
                                > atheism, neither one of them are involved in discussing the subject
                                > of atheism, but are discussing other topics. I'm the only one
                                > discussing the subject of atheism, and the only reason this subject
                                > was brought up in the first place is because Daniel Denham and some
                                > of the other Contending For Tendentious Fallacies deliberately used
                                > bluffing blustering comments about atheism debate as a diversionary
                                > rhetorical tactic to CHANGE THE SUBJECT because they are so
                                > embarassed about their own belief in young earth creationism they
                                > wanted to run away from discussing it. (And don't think Don DeLong
                                > has done anything of the sort, because he has not in any way
                                > discussed the scientific failures of young earth creationism either.)
                                >
                                > So Daniel's comment tying Robert and Rick to discussion of atheism
                                is
                                > Lie #3.
                                >
                                > > The challenge to
                                > > Todd, who is the "champion" for Baty and Hartzog,
                                >
                                > I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean. Going by his
                                > record, I strongly suspect this is lie #4 but I'm just not sure yet,
                                > so we'll call this one Lie #4(alpha).
                                >
                                > > is still on the table. Where are they?
                                >
                                > There is no "they." Robert and Rick are not discussing the subject
                                of
                                > atheism. So this is Lie #4.
                                >
                                > > Wherever they're hiding,
                                >
                                > This is Lie #5.
                                >
                                > I'm not hiding anywhere. Indeed, I'm the one who made the last
                                > contributions to the discussion of atheism,
                                >
                                > Re: The "Transcendental Argument" for God
                                > by Todd Greene (July 1, 2007)
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10935
                                >
                                > pointing out numerous errors and fallacies (and lies) made by Daniel
                                > Denham, and we've been waiting patiently for Daniel to return with
                                > some kind of response attempting to deal with the many problems
                                > pointed out, but he has failed to respond to that post of mine.
                                >
                                > So now we see that Daniel's "response" is to RUN AWAY from the
                                > discussion by simply lying to everyone to pretend that I'm the one
                                > who ran away from the discussion.
                                >
                                > Oh, yes, Daniel seriously loves this particular lie. He uses it all
                                > the time. Rather than even try to deal with the arguments and
                                > criticisms presented to him, he runs from them by deceitfully
                                > pretending they don't exist. We seriously do not think Daniel has
                                > Alzheimer's disease or is quite this incredibly stupid, it's just
                                > that his lies make it appear this way.
                                >
                                > Note that I also wrote this related post
                                >
                                > Comments on theism/atheism, young earth creationism debate
                                > by Todd Greene (July 1, 2007)
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10938
                                >
                                > that no one in the Contending For Tendentious Fallacies group has
                                > acknowledged the existence of either.
                                >
                                > > they obviously do
                                > > not wish to deal with the most important issue or subject
                                > > man has ever had to contemplate -- the question of the
                                > > existence of God.
                                >
                                > A deceitful statement based on the lie just pointed out.
                                >
                                > Again, I've been discussing the subject. The ball is in Daniel's
                                > court. But rather than deal with it we see he has now chosen to
                                > ignore my discussion and then lie to everyone by pretending I
                                haven't
                                > been discussing it.
                                >
                                > > If God does not
                                > > exist, as Todd claims, then everything is academic.
                                >
                                > This is just a stupid statement. Actions have consequences,
                                > regardless of a person's religious beliefs. If you eat food, you
                                > live. If you don't eat food, after awhile you die. If you drink
                                > poison, it will kill you. If you jump off a cliff, gravity works the
                                > same for EVERYONE, regardless of a person's religious beliefs or
                                lack
                                > of them.
                                >
                                > This point has been made to Daniel previously, numerous times. But
                                we
                                > see here that he has chosen to deliberately ignore this point. This
                                > is because he is incapable of dealing with reality in his rhetoric.
                                > His position is a fantasy, which is why adherence to his fantasy
                                > requires him to make stuff up all the time.
                                >
                                > > Nothing really matters,
                                >
                                > As just pointed out, this is a false statement.
                                >
                                > > and there are
                                > > no real, objective moral absolutes: for no real, objective
                                > > moral standard would exist.
                                >
                                > Morality is only as objective as the objective consequences of
                                > actions in the real world.
                                >
                                > Notice that Daniel himself is demonstrating for us HIS so-
                                > called "objective" morality, which consists in lying to people and
                                > making up his own human-imposed rules based on his unjustified (and
                                > false) fantasies and his head.
                                >
                                > > But if God
                                > > does exist, which is the truth, then the Three Stooges of
                                > > Todd, Baty, and Hartzog are in real trouble.
                                >
                                > Here we see Daniel again stating one lie based on his previous lie
                                of
                                > tying Robert and Rick into atheism. Robert and Rick are not
                                atheists,
                                > pure and simple. Every single time Daniel pretends otherwise he is
                                > lying.
                                >
                                > So this is lie #6.
                                >
                                > In regard to the relevance of belief in God to empirical facts,
                                > everyone knows that NO MATTER WHAT A PERSON BELIEVES ABOUT ANY GOD
                                (S)
                                > THE EMPIRICAL FACTS ARE THE SAME FOR EVERYONE. The Earth orbits the
                                > Sun, not the other way around. The facts of geological science (such
                                > as, for example, the specific physical geologic features observed at
                                > the Grand Canyon) are what they are FOR EVERYONE, and whether they
                                > like strawberry ice cream or hate it IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THE
                                > FACTS. Whether a person believes in Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, or Ra
                                > and Isis, or Allah, or Yahweh DOES NOT MAKE A BIT OF DIFFERENCE.
                                >
                                > This specific point has been explicitly pointed out to Daniel
                                > NUMEROUS TIMES, yet he completely ignores this point, and then
                                states
                                > lies based on his deliberately ignoring the facts.
                                >
                                > So this makes Lie #7.
                                >
                                > Daniel Denham is seriously afflicted with the three monkeys
                                syndrome,
                                > in which he himself covers his eyes, stops up his ears, and refuses
                                > to tell the truth. This is how he demonstrates for everyone how his
                                > position is completely incapable of dealing rationally with reality.
                                >
                                > - Todd Greene
                                >
                              • Todd S. Greene
                                ... Of course, as all of us already know (including the ContendingFTF young earth creationists!) they will not discuss the relevant science (as they ve been
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jul 5 4:03 PM
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                                  --- In Maury_and_Baty, Robert Baty wrote (post #11002):
                                  > Todd,
                                  >
                                  > Our posts just crossed in cyberspace.
                                  >
                                  > So, when you get a chance, you might want to comment on
                                  > my latest proposals...

                                  These are my standard ones:

                                  | Proposition #1:
                                  | The empirical evidence shows that the Earth has
                                  | been in existence longer than one hundred
                                  | thousand (100,000) years.
                                  |
                                  | Affirm: Todd S. Greene
                                  | Deny: David P. Brown?
                                  |
                                  | Proposition #2:
                                  | The empirical evidence shows that the Universe
                                  | has been in existence longer than one hundred
                                  | thousand (100,000) years.
                                  |
                                  | Affirm: Todd S. Greene
                                  | Deny: David P. Brown?
                                  |
                                  | Proposition #3:
                                  | The empirical evidence shows that the Earth is
                                  | less than one hundred thousand (100,000) years
                                  | old.
                                  |
                                  | Affirm: David P. Brown?
                                  | Deny: Todd S Greene
                                  |
                                  | Proposition #4:
                                  | The empirical evidence shows that the Universe
                                  | is less than one hundred thousand (100,000)
                                  | years old.
                                  |
                                  | Affirm: David P. Brown?
                                  | Deny: Todd S. Greene

                                  Of course, as all of us already know (including the ContendingFTF
                                  young earth creationists!) they will not discuss the relevant science
                                  (as they've been showing everyone), but will run away from discussing
                                  the science because - even as they themselves have occasionally let
                                  slip out in their own rhetoric - they're advocating the "We don't
                                  need no stinkin' evidence" position.

                                  In regard to the arguments that "If the world is ancient, then the
                                  Bible isn't God's Word" or "If the world is ancient, then God doesn't
                                  exist," what we have observe about these Contending For Tendentious
                                  Fallacies guys is that they are utterly incapable of engaging in
                                  rational discussion. All the time they're making statements that are
                                  based on (i.e., implying) these very premises, but every single time
                                  we point out these logical premises of their rhetoric THEY RUN AWAY
                                  and will not deal with the logical premises of their rhetoric. (And
                                  then these guys who are incapable of dealing with simple, basic logic
                                  have the audacity to say that we're the ones with the numb skulls!!!
                                  The obtuse irrationality of the young earth creationist mind never
                                  ceases to amaze me.) The fact that when presented with rational
                                  argument/criticism these guys either just clam right up (a recent
                                  example is Skip Francis clamming up about his "moon recession"
                                  argument after being presenting with numerous errors about it), or
                                  deliberately lie that we never even discussed a subject (as Daniel
                                  Denham and Don DeLong love to do), or merely condemn people to
                                  roasting in fire eternally for disagreeing with them (as they all do;
                                  preachers, you know, confusing their thoughts with being God's
                                  thoughts; occupational hazard?), demonstrates their awareness of the
                                  fact that they cannot sustain their position using reason and the
                                  facts. In other words, they know they can't sustain their position by
                                  the truth, because if they knew they could, that's what they'd be
                                  doing.

                                  - Todd Greene
                                • Todd S. Greene
                                  ... The lies of Daniel Denham continue as he spews his standard irrelevant ad hominem insults (and has the audacity to call himself a moral Christian !) ...
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jul 5 11:27 PM
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                                    --- In ContendingFTF, Daniel Denham wrote (post #7429):
                                    > List,
                                    >
                                    > Todd "Larry, Neville Chamberlain, the Self-admitted Phoney,
                                    > Agnostic Pretending To Be An Atheist, Chuckles, Steve
                                    > Heiden" Greene

                                    The lies of Daniel Denham continue as he spews his standard
                                    irrelevant ad hominem insults (and has the audacity to call himself
                                    a "moral Christian"!)

                                    > has popped up
                                    > for air from his hidey-hole

                                    Lie #2 from Daniel Denham, already pointed out.

                                    > and still not
                                    > ready to defend his atheism in public debate

                                    Lie #3 from Daniel Denham.

                                    Notice how he keeps right on lying to people even after his distinct
                                    error has been explicitly pointed out to him. Deceit is Daniel's
                                    standard rhetorical method.

                                    > -- probably afraid that
                                    > it would offend Moe and Curly, who have endorsed him as
                                    > their "chumpion."

                                    Futher irrelevant ad hominem insults based on the previously stated
                                    lie.

                                    > Ostensibly, he seeks
                                    > to document my "many lies,"

                                    Indeed, they are documented. That's the point.

                                    > but this is
                                    > the same Todd Greene who has admitted and boasted
                                    > about lying in the Steve Heiden affair,

                                    Which, of course, is completely irrelevant to the facts at hand. But
                                    this is Daniel Denham we're talking about, who seeks to use deception
                                    at every hand, such as red herring rhetoric, to try to distract away
                                    from his many problems.

                                    > which he has
                                    > even chronicled on his own website to show the depths to
                                    > which he will go to justify in his own mind blatant
                                    > dishonesty on his own part.

                                    Further irrelevant red herring by the deceitful Daniel Denham that he
                                    uses for the deliberate purpose of evading the facts that are
                                    relevant to discussion. The nonexistence of the Steve Heiden
                                    character is completely irrelevant to the facts of discussion, Daniel
                                    Denham knows this (which is why he diligently runs away from even
                                    discussing the relevant facts by wasting time on irrelevant remarks
                                    about the nonexistence of the Steve Heiden character).

                                    > Liberals are good
                                    > at that.

                                    Another beautiful example of red herring rhetoric, in this case also
                                    called "red-baiting." Daniel loves to use many of the basic fallacies
                                    of rhetoric that students learn about in high school.

                                    > Lying is always
                                    > evil, except when they do it, because they have "noble"
                                    > aims in doing it.

                                    So says the man who is lying right now, and lying about the very
                                    facts that are actually relevant to what he's talking about.

                                    > It's also fascinating
                                    > that an atheist would accuse someone else of doing what
                                    > his (the atheist's) position says implicitly is impossible

                                    Here we see Daniel introducing a new claim. Notice that he merely
                                    ASSERTS it, but doesn't even attempt to explain it. As we have
                                    already observed, Daniel rarely attempts to explain anything, because
                                    he makes such a mess of it when he tries, so he relies on merely
                                    making assertions over and over and over and over again, without
                                    explaining why they are supposed to be so (in terms of logic), or
                                    whether, if they do happen to make logical sense, there is any
                                    evidence to subtantiated them. This is called argument-by-
                                    insinuation, which young earth creationists use routinely.

                                    > -- to commit real,
                                    > objective moral evil.

                                    Notice that poor Daniel cannot even figure out the difference between
                                    on ontological claim and a moral claim. And this man pretends to be
                                    able to carry out philosophical discussion.

                                    Whether a lie is a moral evil or not is IRRELEVANT to whether or not
                                    a statement is a lie. A statement is a lie simply because (1) it is
                                    not true, and the (2) the person promoting it knows it isn't true yet
                                    continues to promote it for the purpose of leading people to believe
                                    it and support him in his lie. The fact of what it is is completely
                                    independent of considerations of whether or not a lie is a moral evil.

                                    Additionally, Daniel's comment is a complete red herring on another
                                    level, which is simply that whether or not *I* think it's
                                    an "objective moral evil" is completely irrelevant. What IS relevant
                                    is that DANIEL THINKS IT'S AN OBJECTIVE MORAL EVIL, AS HE HAS JUST
                                    STATED, YET IT IS HE WHO IS LYING LEFT AND RIGHT. Thus does he
                                    demonstrate his hypocrisy.

                                    > Todd does not
                                    > seem to realize that even in making his charge he
                                    > implicitly repudiates atheism,

                                    Oooooo, how impressive, another argument by assertion with no logical
                                    explanation. In other words, standard baseless rhetoric from Daniel
                                    Denham.

                                    > just as when
                                    > he attempts to resort to reason to get folks to change
                                    > their minds and become reprobate atheists just like he
                                    > is.

                                    Daniel already lost that argument. Indeed, he lost it so badly that
                                    he ran away from the discussion and is now deceitfully pretending
                                    that the discussion never took place.

                                    > Well, again, go,
                                    > figure. Todd is also a self-admitted fool,

                                    Another lie by Daniel Denham. I am an atheist, and Daniel - as usual -
                                    uses another fallacy, argument from authority (i.e., no reasoning to
                                    back it up).

                                    Of course, Daniel demonstrates the utter foolishness of his rhetoric
                                    in almost every post he writes.

                                    > and even Rick
                                    > Hartzog has acknowledge that as well by implication.

                                    Yes, more irrational rhetoric from Daniel. He can't make a rational
                                    argument, and knows it, so continues to fill up his posts with
                                    irrational nonsense.

                                    > Todd, the challenge
                                    > is still on the table to debate the existence of God.

                                    And I've been discussing and debating the existence of God. But the
                                    truth about this obviously doesn't matter to Daniel, because no
                                    matter what the facts are he's going to lie about it, as he has been
                                    showing us.

                                    > The only requested
                                    > email I want from you is your agreement to affirm
                                    > "Resolved: I (Todd Greene) know that God does not
                                    > exist."

                                    This is a false representation of the atheistic position. I have
                                    pointed this out to Daniel AT LEAST a dozen times now, but the truth
                                    about this obviously doesn't matter to Daniel, because no matter what
                                    the facts are he's going to lie about it, as he has been showing us.

                                    > Otherwise, your responses
                                    > will continue to be reported for what they are -- 100%
                                    > spam from a self-confessed liar.

                                    And so does the lying Daniel Denham continue in his deceitful ways.

                                    Now, here's the real deal. The facts of the public record are
                                    obvious, and there are a number of individuals of the ContendingFTF
                                    group who know that Daniel is lying about these things, YET THEY
                                    REMAIN SILENT AND IMPLICITLY SUPPORT THE DECEITFUL WAYS OF DANIEL
                                    DENHAM. This is how they, too, demonstrate their hypocrisy.

                                    Keep in mind that the whole reason these ContendingFTF guys wanted to
                                    CHANGE THE SUBJECT to atheism, including David P. Brown and Don
                                    DeLong, as well as Daniel Denham, was precisely because they are so
                                    embarrassed about their own belief in young earth creationism that
                                    they want to evade any critical discussion of it.

                                    Here are some of my posts that Daniel is with his rhetoric
                                    deceitfully pretending don't exist:

                                    Let's see if they can possibly comprehend the meaning of atheism
                                    by Todd Greene (Jun. 24, 2007)
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10722

                                    Daniel Denham is every which way, and loose!
                                    by Todd Greene (Jun. 25, 2007)
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10756

                                    A Short Explanation of the Agnostic Position
                                    by Todd Greene (Jun. 26, 2007)
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10773

                                    The Meaning Of Atheism
                                    by Todd Greene (Jun. 26, 2007)
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10793

                                    Re: The Meaning Of Atheism
                                    by Todd Greene (Jun. 27, 2007)
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10828

                                    Re: The Meaning Of Atheism
                                    by Todd Greene (Jun. 27, 2007)
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10829

                                    Re: The syndrome afflicting David Brown
                                    by Todd Greene (Jun. 28, 2007)
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10856

                                    Daniel Denham lies about correction of misrepresentation...
                                    by Todd Greene (Jun. 28, 2007)
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10865

                                    Daniel Denham lies about correction of misrepresentation...
                                    by Todd Greene (Jun. 29, 2007)
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10883

                                    Re: The Meaning Of Atheism
                                    by Todd Greene (Jun. 29, 2007)
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10887

                                    The "Transcendental Argument" for God
                                    by Todd Greene (Jun. 30, 2007)
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10911

                                    Re: The "Transcendental Argument" for God
                                    by Todd Greene (Jul. 1, 2007)
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10935

                                    Comments on theism/atheism, young earth creationism debate
                                    by Todd Greene (Jul. 1, 2007)
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10938

                                    - Todd Greene
                                  • Todd S. Greene
                                    ... Uh... There is no morality separate and apart from human beings. If human beings don t exist, morality doesn t exist. If there aren t any human, there
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jul 6 12:02 AM
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                                      --- In ContendingFTF, Daniel Denham wrote (post #7437):
                                      > Wayne and List,
                                      >
                                      > Notice Todd's attempted response to the point that if
                                      > God does not exist, then anything goes -- it's all
                                      > academic.
                                      >
                                      > Todd partially quotes from me: "If God does not
                                      > exist, as Todd claims, then everything is academic."
                                      >
                                      > He then adds: "This is just a stupid statement. Actions
                                      > have consequences, regardless of a person's religious
                                      > beliefs. If you eat food, you live. If you don't eat
                                      > food, after awhile you die. If you drink poison, it will
                                      > kill you. If you jump off a cliff, gravity works the
                                      > same for EVERYONE, regardless of a person's religious
                                      > beliefs or lack of them."
                                      >
                                      > Maybe Todd will indulge us with proof of a real,
                                      > objective moral standard that exists separate and
                                      > apart from individual humans or groups of humans.
                                      > Let him produce it! How does he know that murder is
                                      > wrong, for example.

                                      Uh... There is no morality separate and apart from human beings. If
                                      human beings don't exist, morality doesn't exist. If there aren't any
                                      human, there can't be any murder.

                                      Duh.

                                      By the way, how does Daniel Denham know that murdering babies and
                                      children is wrong? Bear in mind that this man advocates a religious
                                      book that teaches that God commanded the murder of babies and
                                      children.

                                      Daniel's current rhetoric about morality is based on a completely
                                      false premise. I noticed him use the phrase "objective moral
                                      standard" - pretending that he has one in his possession. In fact, he
                                      does NOT possess an objective moral standard, so the man in this
                                      discussion who has the problem of "it's all academic" is the man
                                      who's using an abstract concept that he himself does not possess.

                                      > That is what
                                      > I had reference to in the context of the statement he
                                      > quotes and then tries to attack.

                                      I didn't "try" to attack it, I even gave specific examples proving
                                      that the statement was wrong. I have zero doubt that henceforth
                                      Daniel will ignore what I pointed out, ignore my examples, then lie
                                      that I never even addressed this point, and then deceitfully continue
                                      to misrepresent my position. This is the deceitful Daniel Denham
                                      we're dealing with, and this is his standard operating procedure.

                                      > I was dealing
                                      > with the question of real, objective moral evil.

                                      Nice try at distraction. It doesn't matter what he was dealing with,
                                      what he did was make a stupid statement misrepresenting my position.

                                      > How does he
                                      > know that it exists?

                                      Who said that it does? Keep in mind that Daniel promotes belief in a
                                      God who commands the murder of babies and children.

                                      > What standard tells
                                      > him so?

                                      What standard tells Daniel that it's perfectly okay for a god to
                                      command the murder of babies and children?

                                      > Wait and see
                                      > if you get a clear, unequivocal response.

                                      We know we won't. I bet another 58 quatloos that Daniel Denham will
                                      RUN AWAY from this question and pretend it was never asked. This is
                                      because Daniel's whole argument is based on the false premise that he
                                      possesses an objective moral standard when the fact of the matter is
                                      that he doesn't have anything of the sort.

                                      Hey, Daniel, is slavery a sin?

                                      Quote the verse.

                                      Hey, Daniel, what makes it okay for your god to command the murder of
                                      babies and children?

                                      Please explain more about this "objective moral standard" of yours.

                                      > I suspect his
                                      > silence will be deafening.

                                      I know it won't. But as far as Daniel's rhetoric is concerned it
                                      won't matter, because as we have already seen Daniel will just
                                      deliberately ignore the existence of the posts and then lie to people
                                      to deceitfully pretend that I didn't write anything on the subject -
                                      just as I've written at least a dozen posts in just the last several
                                      days, yet he's been lying to people pretending that those don't exist.

                                      > If he does
                                      > determine to try and touch it, it'll come back to bite
                                      > him ten times over.

                                      We've already begun to see what has bitten whom. Not to mention the
                                      simple fact that the guy touting an "object moral standard" is the
                                      guy lying left and right about almost everything involved in
                                      discussion.

                                      > Let him deal with real, objective evil and come up with
                                      > evidence of a standard demanding that such does in fact
                                      > exist. Jean-Paul Sartre, an atheist and an existential
                                      > philosopher, stated expressly, "If God does not exist,
                                      > anything goes."

                                      Actually, according to Daniel's God anything does go, including the
                                      murder of babies and children, the taking of virgin girls for sexual
                                      pleasures, and the enslavement of fellow human beings, among many
                                      other atrocities.

                                      > Let Todd address
                                      > the real point, rather than trying to misdirect people from
                                      > it, which is really all an atheist, who is determined to be
                                      > dishonest about his position can really do!

                                      This is funny, seeing a red herring chef such as Daniel Denham
                                      pretend I'll misdirect anyone away from anything. What makes it even
                                      funnier is the fact that this very post of Daniel's that I'm
                                      responding to is for the purpose of changing the subject and not
                                      dealing with the problems of the Transcendental Argument that I
                                      already pointed out (you know, the posts I made that Daniel is now
                                      lying to people that I didn't write them).

                                      This is another one of Daniel's standard operating procedures. Lie
                                      about previous discussion, and then RUN AWAY by changing the subject.

                                      > That is why
                                      > he does not want to debate the existence of God

                                      And there's that lie again.

                                      > -- the most important
                                      > issue man has ever confronted.

                                      Ooooo... How dramatic.

                                      Did anyone catch the STANDARD FALLACY inherent in this piece of
                                      rhetoric?

                                      It's more commonly known as "Pascal's Wager."

                                      > He would have to face some ugly truths about what he
                                      > believes and why he believes it. That he will not do.

                                      Here is where Daniel must be explaining to everyone why he refuses to
                                      engage in rational discussion.

                                      - Todd Greene
                                    • w_w_c_l
                                      (adapted from Daniel Denham s comments on the ChristianEvidences list): List, Moe (Robert Baty) and Curly (Rick Hartzog) must really be unhappy with Daniel
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jul 6 8:09 AM
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                                        (adapted from Daniel Denham's comments on the
                                        ChristianEvidences list):


                                        List,

                                        "Moe" (Robert Baty) and "Curly" (Rick Hartzog) must really be
                                        unhappy with Daniel Denham's performance in this discussion --
                                        they keep wanting to jump in and help him out of the morass
                                        he has made of his attempts at discussing "objective" morals
                                        that exist "separate and apart from individual humans or
                                        groups of humans". Well, that's just tough. Denham is stuck
                                        in a swamp of his own making. I suspect we shall soon see
                                        him try to change the subject away from "objective" evil now
                                        that he sees the impossibility of his position. Indeed, it
                                        is quite amusing to watch Moe's and Curly's embarrassment at
                                        the mess their fellow theist has gotten them into.

                                        Chuckling still,
                                        "Larry"
                                      • w_w_c_l
                                        And now Doug Post wants to jump into the conversation, as if he had something to say: it is objectively wrong to exploit children for sex:
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jul 6 8:53 AM
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                                          And now Doug Post wants to jump into the conversation, as
                                          if he had something to say: it is "objectively" wrong to
                                          exploit children for sex:


                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ContendingFTF/message/7439

                                          Re: Notice Atheism's Stupidity


                                          > Daniel,
                                          >
                                          > True Humanists, who are Athiests, and in large part
                                          > Communists, must believe that there are no moral
                                          > absolutes in order for them to rule out any Divine or
                                          > Supernatural being, yet they cannot remain consistent.
                                          > Some of these folks have argued there is nothing
                                          > inherently evil with child molestation but only that
                                          > the evolving norms of the culture set the standard.
                                          > But, what of the culture of homosexuals such as NAMBLA (??)
                                          > who advocate the legalization of child sex? There is a
                                          > growing population among the homosexual community,
                                          > worldwide, actually pushing for this - at least for
                                          > having the age of consent at the age of 10. I wonder if
                                          > the 3 stooges find anything inherently evil about this
                                          > matter?
                                          >
                                          > doug post

                                          Why don't you ask Bert Thompson, Doug?



                                          --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
                                          "w_w_c_l" <w_w_c_l@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > (adapted from Daniel Denham's comments on the
                                          > ChristianEvidences list):
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > List,
                                          >
                                          > "Moe" (Robert Baty) and "Curly" (Rick Hartzog) must really be
                                          > unhappy with Daniel Denham's performance in this discussion --
                                          > they keep wanting to jump in and help him out of the morass
                                          > he has made of his attempts at discussing "objective" morals
                                          > that exist "separate and apart from individual humans or
                                          > groups of humans". Well, that's just tough. Denham is stuck
                                          > in a swamp of his own making. I suspect we shall soon see
                                          > him try to change the subject away from "objective" evil now
                                          > that he sees the impossibility of his position. Indeed, it
                                          > is quite amusing to watch Moe's and Curly's embarrassment at
                                          > the mess their fellow theist has gotten them into.
                                          >
                                          > Chuckling still,
                                          > "Larry"
                                          >
                                        • Robert Baty
                                          (To reflect that Wayne Blake will be included as an affirmative with David P. Brown until such time as Wayne might provide his explicit claims denying such a
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jul 6 9:20 PM
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                                            (To reflect that Wayne Blake will be included as an affirmative with David P. Brown until such time as Wayne might provide his explicit claims denying such a position and what alternative position he might actually hold.)

                                            Following is the proposition, Thomas B. Warren-like, that is still on the table for David P. Brown to take up in the proposed
                                            formal, in writing, for the record discussion:

                                            > We, David P. Brown and
                                            > the ContendingFTF boys,
                                            > affirm:

                                            >> If some thing really
                                            >> is more than a few
                                            >> thousand years old,
                                            >> then the God we believe
                                            >> in, as represented in
                                            >> the Bible, does not exist.

                                            > Affirmed: David P. Brown

                                            The Boys:

                                            > Affirmed: Wayne Coats
                                            > Affirmed: Dub McClish
                                            > Affirmed: Harrell Davidson

                                            > Affirmed: John West
                                            > Affirmed: Daniel Denham
                                            > Affirmed: Don DeLong
                                            > Affirmed: Doug Post
                                            > Affirmed: Dennis Francis
                                            > Affirmed: Daniel Coe
                                            > Affirmed: Keith Sisman
                                            > Affirmed: Richard Mansel
                                            > Affirmed: Robin Haley
                                            > Affirmed: Ken Chumbley
                                            > Affirmed: Kent Bailey
                                            > Affirmed: Jerry Brewer
                                            > Affirmed: Roelff Ruffner
                                            > Affirmed: Denny Durigan
                                            > Affirmed: Geoff Litke
                                            > Affirmed: Daniel Douglas
                                            > Affirmed: Tim Smith
                                            > Affirmed: Donald Canny
                                            > Affirmed: Wayne Blake
                                            > Affirmed: Bill Rainey
                                            > Affirmed: Denny Wilson
                                            > Affirmed: Jimmie Z. Gribble
                                            > Affirmed: Charles Wallace
                                            > Affirmed: Robert Collier
                                            > Affirmed: Michael Wilk
                                            > Affirmed: Roger Zink
                                            > Affirmed: Donald Mash
                                            > Affirmed: Charles Broyles
                                            > Affirmed: Brian Reagan
                                            > Affirmed: Richie Baker
                                            > Affirmed: Gilbert Gough
                                            > Affirmed: John Miler
                                            > Affirmed: Kevin Townsend
                                            > Affirmed: Justin Guess
                                            > Affirmed: David Hammer
                                            > Affirmed: Donald R. Fox
                                            > Affirmed: Johnny Kelton
                                            > Affirmed: Bruce Stulting
                                            > Affirmed: Bradley S. Cobb
                                            > Affirmed: Joe Gannotti
                                            > Affirmed: Chuck Newell
                                            > Affirmed: Bill Schwegler
                                            > Affirmed: Val Jamison
                                            > Affirmed: Robert Foster
                                            > Affirmed: Lynn Parker
                                            > Affirmed: Weldon Blake
                                            > Affirmed: Dale Miller
                                            > Affirmed: Jack L. Burch
                                            > Affirmed: "et al"

                                            If the above is not a correct and accurate description of the position they have been implicitly prosecuting lately, they should
                                            respond directly to this list and state explicitly their true position on what they believe the consequence is regarding their
                                            position IF some thing really is more than a few thousand years old.

                                            They will then have their name removed from the above and placed appropriately on the legitimate affirmative position as indicated by their response and their explicit denial of the above affirmative.

                                            In order to respond directly to this list, they simply need to address their e-mail to:

                                            Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com

                                            Sincerely,
                                            Robert Baty

                                            P.S. If anyone knows of any public claims (i.e., with Internet links) by the above noted individuals whereby they effectively deny the above affirmative statement, please forward such verifiable references and they will be considered for purposes of determining which individuals may disagree with David P. Brown and agree with me!

                                            -----------------------
                                            -----------------------





                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Todd S. Greene
                                            Thus does the deceitful Daniel Denham continue to blatantly lie about this matter, just as he has blatantly lied about so many other matters. Daniel keeps
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jul 9 11:43 PM
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                                              Thus does the deceitful Daniel Denham continue to blatantly lie about
                                              this matter, just as he has blatantly lied about so many other
                                              matters. Daniel keeps falsely pretending that this post I wrote,
                                              which is a matter of public record, doesn't exist. Now, I know that
                                              he personally knows I wrote that, because when he started lying about
                                              them I immediately notified him of them by personal email. (I also
                                              happen to know that many other members of the ContendingFTF list,
                                              including David P. Brown, are aware of this particular post. Yet NOT
                                              A SINGLE ONE has pointed out Daniel's error to him. So we note here
                                              the fact these all of these people have made themselves complicit in
                                              deliberate deception.)

                                              Comments on theism/atheism, young earth creationism debate
                                              by Todd Greene (July 1, 2007)
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10938

                                              There is also the fact that I have written numerous posts in the
                                              Maury_and_Baty group debating the existence of God.

                                              Additionally, there is the fact that the only reason we're even
                                              discussing the subject of theism/atheism in the first place is
                                              because Daniel and other ContendingFTF members CHANGED THE SUBJECT
                                              because they are so embarrassed about their belief in young earth
                                              creationism that they RAN AWAY from discussing the numerous
                                              scientific errors of that religious dogma. In other words, the
                                              whole "debate atheism" bluster has been nothing more than a
                                              diversionary tactic, because these guys that in terms of the relevant
                                              science they cannot defend this religious doctrine of young earth
                                              creationism. Young earth creationism is a false doctrine, precisely
                                              because it is factually wrong, because the relevant scientific facts
                                              (from astronomy and geology) show that both the Universe and the
                                              Earth have been in existence far longer than just 6,000 or 10,000
                                              years.

                                              In the Maury_and_Baty list - i.e., it's a matter of public record -
                                              we have numerous specific questions that were asked of several
                                              ContendingFTF members that they all completely failed to answer, and
                                              thus ran away from. Besides being incredibly deceitful, it's pretty
                                              funny - and real hypocritical - for these guys to even dare to
                                              pretend that I (or others) haven't been addressing and answering
                                              issues they bring up, because in fact while THEY have been diligently
                                              running away from the issues that we've been bring up for them to
                                              address, WE almost always address various issues they have raised
                                              IMMEDIATELY. But then we have Daniel proceed to lying by pretending
                                              otherwise. Of course, as all of us already know, as we have observed
                                              in the past and have been observing numerous occasions of in the last
                                              several weeks, whenever Daniel doesn't like something, he just
                                              habitually lies about it. We have been observing that this pattern of
                                              deceit and utter hypocrisy apparently runs pretty rampant with many
                                              of the ContendingFTF members.

                                              - Todd Greene


                                              --- In ContendingFTF, Daniel Denham wrote (post #7466):
                                              > Rick,
                                              >
                                              > The challenge for Todd to debate the existence of God is
                                              > still on the table. He seems to have lockjaw on saying yes.
                                              > Maybe you can use you (he he, as though you have any)
                                              > "moral influence" to get him to step up to the plate.
                                            • Todd S. Greene
                                              We observe the deceitful Daniel Denham continuing to lie about me. Notice we also observe Doug Post lying about Robert Baty and Rick Hartzog now, deceitfully
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jul 10 10:26 AM
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                                                We observe the deceitful Daniel Denham continuing to lie about me.

                                                Notice we also observe Doug Post lying about Robert Baty and Rick
                                                Hartzog now, deceitfully pretending they are atheists.

                                                And now we have Skip Francis - remember, he's the guy who promoted
                                                the young earth creationist moon recession argument, and after
                                                numerous errors of logic and fact were pointed out he clammed right
                                                up and has completely ignored the subject, deliberately refusing to
                                                acknowledge any error of any kind, another form of deceitfulness
                                                (Hey, Skip, when are you ever gonna get around to addressing the
                                                problem??? Never, huh??? Yeah, that's what I figured, because that's
                                                how you guys really are.) - expressing some bizarre form of
                                                blindness, because even though I gave him this specific reference

                                                Comments on theism/atheism, young earth creationism debate
                                                by Todd Greene (July 1, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10938

                                                Skip is apparently utterly incapable of reading and comprehending
                                                what I wrote.

                                                Now, I know not only that Daniel Denham is aware of me having made
                                                these posts in discussion of theism/atheism, as well as having
                                                accepted their debate challenge, and it is Daniel and the others who
                                                have run away from the discussion because rather than respond to any
                                                of the points I made they ignored them and now have Daniel lying to
                                                people that I never made these points in the first place. I have made
                                                several points in these posts that Daniel has deliberately ignored
                                                and completely failed to address, yet here is lying that I never made
                                                these points in the first place. He blatantly lies that I have
                                                diverted the issues, which is merely another blatant lie on his part.
                                                Every issue he has raised I have addressed immediately and
                                                forthrightly - which Daniel himself then ignores and then lies to
                                                people that I did not write what I wrote. These Contentious for
                                                Tendentious Fallacies men are complicit in Daniel's deceitfulness
                                                because they know the truth and thus know that he's lying but they
                                                deliberately refuse to correct his error, and further make comments
                                                encouraging him for lying.

                                                Here are some of my posts that Daniel is with his rhetoric
                                                deceitfully pretending don't exist:

                                                Let's see if they can possibly comprehend the meaning of atheism
                                                by Todd Greene (Jun. 24, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10722

                                                Daniel Denham is every which way, and loose!
                                                by Todd Greene (Jun. 25, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10756

                                                A Short Explanation of the Agnostic Position
                                                by Todd Greene (Jun. 26, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10773

                                                The Meaning Of Atheism
                                                by Todd Greene (Jun. 26, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10793

                                                Re: The Meaning Of Atheism
                                                by Todd Greene (Jun. 27, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10828

                                                Re: The Meaning Of Atheism
                                                by Todd Greene (Jun. 27, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10829

                                                Re: The syndrome afflicting David Brown
                                                by Todd Greene (Jun. 28, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10856

                                                Daniel Denham lies about correction of misrepresentation...
                                                by Todd Greene (Jun. 28, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10865

                                                Daniel Denham lies about correction of misrepresentation...
                                                by Todd Greene (Jun. 29, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10883

                                                Re: The Meaning Of Atheism
                                                by Todd Greene (Jun. 29, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10887

                                                The "Transcendental Argument" for God
                                                by Todd Greene (Jun. 30, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10911

                                                Re: The "Transcendental Argument" for God
                                                by Todd Greene (Jul. 1, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10935

                                                Comments on theism/atheism, young earth creationism debate
                                                by Todd Greene (Jul. 1, 2007)
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10938

                                                And here is a post I wrote on July 5, 2007 in which I pointed out the
                                                fact that he was lying about these posts not existing and provided
                                                this same list:

                                                Re: The Many Lies of Mr. Denham
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/11021

                                                Keep in mind that the whole reason we're even discussing
                                                theism/atheism in the first place is because these guys are just too
                                                embarrassed about their belief in young earth creationism to try to
                                                back it up, so they CHANGED THE SUBJECT to atheism as a diversionary
                                                tactic.

                                                What's ironically funny about this is how these guys promote
                                                themselves as gospel preachers, and they like to talk about revering
                                                the truth, and they like to make comments having an objective
                                                morality under which all lying is wrong, yet when backed into a
                                                corner they will lie at the drop of a hat (I see they're still
                                                promoting the known plagiarist and fabricator of "history," Keith
                                                Sisman). Their standard procedure: (1) deliberately ignore what
                                                you've written, (2) misrepresent you, even blatantly lie about you,
                                                on the basis of having deliberately ignored what you've written, (3)
                                                change the subject. Apparently their position is so false, so
                                                extreme, so embarrassing that they find themselves incapable of
                                                trying to sustain it without resorting to deceitfulness on a routine
                                                basis.

                                                - Todd Greene


                                                --- In ContendingFTF, Daniel Denham wrote (post #7508):
                                                > Brother Doug,
                                                >
                                                > I just received three little putrid emails from one of
                                                > them. In one he accuses me of saying that he has not sent
                                                > any emails, which is a blatant lie on his part. But then
                                                > he is the one who boasts about his prowess at lying. What
                                                > I have stressed repeatedly is that he does not deal with
                                                > the points made in posts against his nonsense; rather he
                                                > seeks to divert the issue time and again, while demanding
                                                > that one follow him down the rabbit hole where his
                                                > imaginary friends live. His emails are being reported as
                                                > spam. I have stated that the only email I want from him
                                                > -- the only one that is solicited -- is the one where he
                                                > publicly acknowledges his willingness to debate the
                                                > existence of God by affirming that "Resolved: I (Todd
                                                > Greene) know that God does not exist." He will not do
                                                > that, because he knows that that's a lost cause. The
                                                > Warren-Flew and Warren-Matson debates show that it
                                                > cannot be sustained. Thank you, for your kind comments.
                                                > BTW their incessant buzzing will stop, especially when
                                                > God deals with their foolishness come the Judgment, then
                                                > there will really be "weeping and gnashing of teeth."
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In ContendingFTF, Doug Post wrote:
                                                >> I keep receiving emails from the "Fools that say there
                                                >> is no God" club. You can tell brother Denham has got to
                                                >> them, and has devistated everything they stand for, as
                                                >> they are now buzzing around like little bees.
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> --- In Maury_and_Baty, Todd Greene wrote (post #11125):
                                                >>> Thus does the deceitful Daniel Denham continue to
                                                >>> blatantly lie about this matter, just as he has
                                                >>> blatantly lied about so many other matters. Daniel
                                                >>> keeps falsely pretending that this post I wrote, which
                                                >>> is a matter of public record, doesn't exist. Now, I
                                                >>> know that he personally knows I wrote that, because
                                                >>> when he started lying about them I immediately notified
                                                >>> him of them by personal email. (I also happen to know
                                                >>> that many other members of the ContendingFTF list,
                                                >>> including David P. Brown, are aware of this particular
                                                >>> post. Yet NOT A SINGLE ONE has pointed out Daniel's
                                                >>> error to him. So we note here the fact these all of
                                                >>> these people have made themselves complicit in
                                                >>> deliberate deception.)
                                                >>>
                                                >>> Comments on theism/atheism, young earth creationism debate
                                                >>> by Todd Greene (July 1, 2007)
                                                >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10938
                                                >>>
                                                >>> There is also the fact that I have written numerous
                                                >>> posts in the Maury_and_Baty group debating the
                                                >>> existence of God.
                                                >>>
                                                >>> Additionally, there is the fact that the only reason
                                                >>> we're even discussing the subject of theism/atheism in
                                                >>> the first place is because Daniel and other
                                                >>> ContendingFTF members CHANGED THE SUBJECT because they
                                                >>> are so embarrassed about their belief in young earth
                                                >>> creationism that they RAN AWAY from discussing the
                                                >>> numerous scientific errors of that religious dogma. In
                                                >>> other words, the whole "debate atheism" bluster has
                                                >>> been nothing more than a diversionary tactic, because
                                                >>> these guys that in terms of the relevant science they
                                                >>> cannot defend this religious doctrine of young earth
                                                >>> creationism. Young earth creationism is a false
                                                >>> doctrine, precisely because it is factually wrong,
                                                >>> because the relevant scientific facts (from astronomy
                                                >>> and geology) show that both the Universe and the Earth
                                                >>> have been in existence far longer than just 6,000 or
                                                >>> 10,000 years.
                                                >>>
                                                >>> In the Maury_and_Baty list - i.e., it's a matter of
                                                >>> public record - we have numerous specific questions
                                                >>> that were asked of several ContendingFTF members that
                                                >>> they all completely failed to answer, and thus ran away
                                                >>> from. Besides being incredibly deceitful, it's pretty
                                                >>> funny - and real hypocritical - for these guys to even
                                                >>> dare to pretend that I (or others) haven't been
                                                >>> addressing and answering issues they bring up, because
                                                >>> in fact while THEY have been diligently running away
                                                >>> from the issues that we've been bring up for them to
                                                >>> address, WE almost always address various issues they
                                                >>> have raised IMMEDIATELY. But then we have Daniel
                                                >>> proceed to lying by pretending otherwise. Of course, as
                                                >>> all of us already know, as we have observed in the past
                                                >>> and have been observing numerous occasions of in the
                                                >>> last several weeks, whenever Daniel doesn't like
                                                >>> something, he just habitually lies about it. We have
                                                >>> been observing that this pattern of deceit and utter
                                                >>> hypocrisy apparently runs pretty rampant with many of
                                                >>> the ContendingFTF members.
                                                >>>
                                                >>> - Todd Greene
                                                >>>
                                                >>>
                                                >>> --- In ContendingFTF, Daniel Denham wrote (post #7466):
                                                >>>> Rick,
                                                >>>>
                                                >>>> The challenge for Todd to debate the existence of God
                                                >>>> is still on the table. He seems to have lockjaw on
                                                >>>> saying yes. Maybe you can use you (he he, as though
                                                >>>> you have any) "moral influence" to get him to step up
                                                >>>> to the plate.
                                              • w_w_c_l
                                                ... Todd, you noticed that too! I ve been waiting and waiting, but I haven t been able to get a single word of acknowledgement about that out of Keith Sisman
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jul 10 10:55 AM
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                                                  --- In Maury_and_Baty@yahoogroups.com,
                                                  "Todd S. Greene" <greeneto@...> wrote (in part):
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > What's ironically funny about this is how these
                                                  > guys promote themselves as gospel preachers, and
                                                  > they like to talk about revering the truth, and
                                                  > they like to make comments having an objective
                                                  > morality under which all lying is wrong, yet when
                                                  > backed into a corner they will lie at the drop of
                                                  > a hat
                                                  >>>> (I see they're still promoting
                                                  >>>> the known plagiarist and fabricator
                                                  >>>> of "history," Keith Sisman). <<<<

                                                  Todd, you noticed that too! I've been waiting and
                                                  waiting, but I haven't been able to get a single
                                                  word of acknowledgement about that out of Keith
                                                  Sisman or anyone else! No one on the ContendingFTF
                                                  list has even asked Keith any questions about that
                                                  nonsense! (Someone on CFTF did, regarding John
                                                  Morton {"Iohn Murton"} and Keith said there were
                                                  *two* John Mortons and RAN AWAY!) You would think
                                                  while Keith was making stuff up, he would throw a
                                                  few pterodactyls in for good measure! You know he
                                                  wants to!


                                                  > Their standard procedure:
                                                  >
                                                  > (1) deliberately ignore what you've written,
                                                  >
                                                  > (2) misrepresent you, even blatantly lie about you,
                                                  > on the basis of having deliberately ignored what
                                                  > you've written,
                                                  >
                                                  > (3) change the subject.

                                                  Play your quatloos right and this kind of information
                                                  can make you a wealthy man!


                                                  > Apparently their position is so false, so extreme,
                                                  > so embarrassing that they find themselves incapable
                                                  > of trying to sustain it without resorting to
                                                  > deceitfulness on a routine basis.
                                                  >
                                                  > - Todd Greene

                                                  But then, we already knew that. As you might say,
                                                  Todd, "It's the Young Earth Creationist Way." And
                                                  that before unbelievers.

                                                  Thanks for pointing out that Keith Sisman thing.


                                                  Rick Hartzog
                                                  Worldwide Church of Latitudinarianism
                                                • Robert Baty
                                                  ... Sincerely, Robert Baty [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jul 10 2:01 PM
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                                                    Todd, you wrote the following which is, indeed, good to keep in mind:

                                                    > Keep in mind that the
                                                    > whole reason we're even
                                                    > discussing theism/atheism
                                                    > in the first place is because
                                                    > these guys are just too
                                                    > embarrassed about their
                                                    > belief in young earth
                                                    > creationism to try to back
                                                    > it up, so they CHANGED
                                                    > THE SUBJECT to atheism as
                                                    > a diversionary tactic.

                                                    Sincerely,
                                                    Robert Baty



                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Todd S. Greene
                                                    See how Skip Francis now becomes explicit in his complicity with Daniel Denham in lying about me, as these men deceitfully pretend that this post doesn t
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Jul 10 4:11 PM
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                                                      See how Skip Francis now becomes explicit in his complicity with
                                                      Daniel Denham in lying about me, as these men deceitfully pretend
                                                      that this post doesn't exist:

                                                      Comments on theism/atheism, young earth creationism debate
                                                      by Todd Greene (July 1, 2007)
                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maury_and_Baty/message/10938

                                                      Notice that he's lying about this, even after having it explicitly
                                                      pointed out to him.

                                                      As Robert Baty would put, I already have my "exit strategy," which is
                                                      actually quite legitimate - but I have chosen to ignore my exit
                                                      strategy *anyway*, which is this: Why would I ever get involved in a
                                                      public debate with men who are KNOWN to lie left and right at the
                                                      drop of a hat as a routine discussion strategy? This is why I intend
                                                      to very careful about venue and determination of debate
                                                      host/moderator.

                                                      In regard to discussion of the bogus nature of the young earth
                                                      creationist moon recession argument, Skip Francis apparently *has*
                                                      run and hide, because now he's even pretending that Rick never
                                                      pointed out the logic errors and factual errors that he did in fact
                                                      already point out to Skip. Skip has completely retreated to now
                                                      making the same old crazy comments that he started off with, as if
                                                      Rick never even wrote one single thing.

                                                      Here's one of the main posts that Skip has deliberately ignored:

                                                      Malcolm Bowden Weasels Out on Moon Recession
                                                      by Rick Hartzog (May 2, 2007)
                                                      http://www.outersystem.us/creationism/moonrecession2.html

                                                      In regard to Skip hiding in a closed forum, well - DUH! - the facts
                                                      speak for themselves.

                                                      In regard to Skip's remark, "It is easy to hide behind your monitor
                                                      and say things, or just spew derivative drivel," I'm laughing at the
                                                      irony, since that pretty much sums up young earth creationists.

                                                      In regard to other comments about Rick and supposedly representing
                                                      what Rick has stated, I'll let Rick speak for himself.

                                                      - Todd Greene


                                                      --- In ContendingFTF, Skip Francis wrote (post #7522):
                                                      > I have been accused of running and hiding from the likes
                                                      > of Batty/Green/Hartzog. In fact, Rick, in true ad hominem
                                                      > form, says: Would Skip Francis dare to say things like
                                                      > that in an open forum -- a place where someone can answer
                                                      > him back? No, of course not! He's just like the rest of
                                                      > that bunch over there on the ContendingFTF list -- a
                                                      > spineless, lying coward, ready to say anything, never
                                                      > ready to back it up.
                                                      >
                                                      > Skip here: An open forum? The day I have to back away
                                                      > from debating the likes of Rick Hartzog is the day I will
                                                      > give up preaching (not likely). His braggadoccio is
                                                      > stinging, isn't it, especially in light of the challenge
                                                      > that has been made to his buddy Todd, et. al., to a four
                                                      > night public debate. Brave fellows all! It is easy to hide
                                                      > behind your monitor and say things, or just spew
                                                      > derivative drivel. It is hard to have an original thought
                                                      > and to deal with it.
                                                      >
                                                      > Rick, it IS like "beating on Jello" to talk to the likes
                                                      > of you. You accuse me of not presenting an original
                                                      > thought, yet all you seem to be able to do is make ad
                                                      > hominem attacks on a persons credentials and then "sic
                                                      > your dog" on them by sending them to someone ELSE to deal
                                                      > with someone ELSE'S argument. Where is YOUR original
                                                      > thought?
                                                      >
                                                      > Dennis (Skip) Francis
                                                      > Suffolk church of Christ
                                                    • Robert Baty
                                                      ... It seems to me that objective folk reviewing the empirical evidence as to these discussions will note that the evidence confirming just how bad David P.
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Jul 10 4:25 PM
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                                                        Todd, you wrote, in part:

                                                        > See how Skip Francis now
                                                        > becomes explicit in his
                                                        > complicity with Daniel
                                                        > Denham in lying about
                                                        > me (Todd S. Greene)...

                                                        It seems to me that objective folk reviewing the empirical evidence as to these discussions will note that the evidence confirming just how bad David P. Brown and his boys have been defeated/beaten is ever more present in their most recent posts where they simply cannot comment without lying about one of us or this list or my "Goliath of GRAS", etc.

                                                        Further evidence as to how bad they have been defeated/beaten is seen by noting those simple, easy to deal with things that they have simply ran off from even lying about.

                                                        They are, indeed, running up the count on their 1,000 deaths that cowards must suffer.

                                                        There's not a "valiant" amongst them that will "come out" and "let us reason TOGETHER"!

                                                        I would that that would change.

                                                        We have so much to talk about regarding important public issues and the negotiations for a discussion of David P. Brown's own falsification argument regarding the existence of God.

                                                        Sincerely,
                                                        Robert Baty




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