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Re: NEWS -- sick selfish conservative religion

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  • Gary
    Thanks for making the post Jay. In my opinion, Jerry Falwell is a power craved man who will stop at nothing to gain more personal power and wealth. Gary
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2004
      Thanks for making the post Jay.
      In my opinion, Jerry Falwell is
      a power craved man who will stop
      at nothing to gain more personal
      power and wealth.

      Gary
    • Gary
      Eric, I want you to know I am not angry or hurt by your post. I do need to make the point that not all fundamentalists are as you describe them. Gary
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2004
        Eric, I want you to know I am not
        angry or hurt by your post. I do
        need to make the point that not
        all fundamentalists are as you
        describe them.

        Gary
      • Joe
        Gary: I ve always thought of fundamentalists (fundies) as the trouble- making, potentially-dangerous, Christians as opposed to Christians in general. Do you
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 1, 2004
          Gary: I've always thought of fundamentalists (fundies) as the trouble-
          making, potentially-dangerous, Christians as opposed to Christians in
          general. Do you mean there are some fundamentalists who are okay? ---
          In MatthewsPlaceForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" <garysdeskcom@h...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Eric, I want you to know I am not
          > angry or hurt by your post. I do
          > need to make the point that not
          > all fundamentalists are as you
          > describe them.
          >
          > Gary
        • johnpday@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
          Just a small point about McKinney s claim that it wasn t a gay-bashing. It s an idea which he s been promotiong (much less articulately) from about four months
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 1, 2004
            Just a small point about McKinney's claim that it wasn't a gay-bashing.
            It's an idea which he's been promotiong (much less articulately) from
            about four months after the murder. So if it's an idea which he picked up
            in prison, he's been consistent - and this still leaves the denials
            happening at the same time that his lawyer tried something of a "gay
            panic" defense. As I keep pointing out, though, playing on others'
            prejudices in crime, even of you don't share that prejudice yourself, is
            a prejudice or bias crime.

            Henderson has been consistent about denying it's being a hate crime from
            the start, although that may speak to Henderson's motivations more than
            anything else. It is also significant that Henderson has also consistently
            said that Matt never made anything that he would call a sexual advance to
            either of them.

            >
            >
            > On ABC 20/20 last Friday -- the Matthew Shepard slander ---
            >
            > "Doc" O Connor, the limousine driver, revealed that he had had a three way with Aaron McKinney and some girl, and that McKinney was quite interested in man to man sex. Are we surprised?
            >
            > I don't believe anything that came out of McKinney's mouth during the program.
            > On the other hand, Russell Henderson seemed truly sorry for what happened.
            > I think that Henderson would make an excellent spokesperson against religious inspired gay-bashing. With proper training, of course. But that is not going to happen.
            >
            > I think that both McKinney and Henderson got this idea that the crime was not an anti-gay hate crime from some conservative christian prison chaplain. That chaplain, whoever he/they is/are, put the "it wasn't because Matthew was gay" idea in their heads.
            >
            > In my opinion,
            > Jay
            >
            > ***
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          • Vega Alopex
            ... Furthermore, Falwell had better hope there is no afterlife, for he will have to answer to God for the actions he does in His name. The Dead Kennedys sang
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 1, 2004
              --- In MatthewsPlaceForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" <garysdeskcom@h...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Thanks for making the post Jay.
              > In my opinion, Jerry Falwell is
              > a power craved man who will stop
              > at nothing to gain more personal
              > power and wealth.
              >
              > Gary

              Furthermore, Falwell had better hope there is no afterlife, for he
              will have to answer to God for the actions he does in His name.
              The Dead Kennedys sang it back in 1981 on their album, "In God We
              Trust Incorporated", especially the cuts "Relgious Vomit" and "Moral
              Majority".
              Al
            • Gary
              Joe, you make a good point. There are potentially very dangerous people in all fundamentalist religions. I view powerful fundamentalist church leaders as
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 1, 2004
                Joe, you make a good point. There are
                potentially very dangerous people in all
                fundamentalist religions.

                I view powerful fundamentalist church
                leaders as potentially dangerous. Some
                of those pastors have oratory skills to
                whip up a lot of emotion and to motivate
                people. While that can be positive, it
                can also be very dangerous and negative.

                The typical fundamentalist church goer
                is not really a dangerous person. I
                know many people who attend rather fundy
                churches who are very caring people
                and who would never knowingly hurt
                somebody. Some people who attend
                fundy churches are fairly moderate
                in their personal beliefs.

                I talked to the pastor of a rather
                fundy church once a few months ago.
                He had a man with full-blown AIDS over
                to his home many times for lunches
                and suppers. The pastor knew the man
                was gay and that made no difference
                to how he treated the man. Years
                later his kids, who were teenagers
                by then, learned this man who had
                eaten so many meals with them had
                AIDS. He told me he had a rather
                angry teenaged son for a few days.

                Gary
              • Tom
                In all honesty my BF s parents are fundamentalists who although they are convinced they have lost him for all eternity continue to love and support him. This
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 1, 2004
                  In all honesty my BF's parents are fundamentalists who
                  although they are convinced they have lost him for all
                  eternity continue to love and support him. This is not
                  saying they are happy he is gay. They tend to live
                  their beliefs instead of just pointing to the book.
                  This means their religion is theirs and not to be
                  forced on others. They have been a continual source of
                  surprise for me.
                  Tom

                  --- Joe <joetyupp@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Gary: I've always thought of fundamentalists
                  > (fundies) as the trouble-
                  > making, potentially-dangerous, Christians as opposed
                  > to Christians in
                  > general. Do you mean there are some fundamentalists
                  > who are okay? ---
                  > In MatthewsPlaceForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary"
                  > <garysdeskcom@h...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Eric, I want you to know I am not
                  > > angry or hurt by your post. I do
                  > > need to make the point that not
                  > > all fundamentalists are as you
                  > > describe them.
                  > >
                  > > Gary
                  >
                  >
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                • Gary
                  Tom, what you describe sounds like deep love. Willing to love and support, even when they believe they ve lost a son. I am sure, however, that their belief
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 1, 2004
                    Tom, what you describe sounds like
                    deep love. Willing to love and
                    support, even when they believe
                    they've lost a son. I am sure,
                    however, that their belief system
                    has been a source of discomfort
                    for you and your boyfriend.

                    Gary


                    --- In MatthewsPlaceForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom <mark19136@y...> wrote:
                    > In all honesty my BF's parents are fundamentalists who
                    > although they are convinced they have lost him for all
                    > eternity continue to love and support him. This is not
                    > saying they are happy he is gay. They tend to live
                    > their beliefs instead of just pointing to the book.
                    > This means their religion is theirs and not to be
                    > forced on others. They have been a continual source of
                    > surprise for me.
                    > Tom
                  • Tom
                    David is hurt more than I am since I have been through all this from their side. David feels they pushed him out of the house by restricting when he could use
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 1, 2004
                      David is hurt more than I am since I have been through
                      all this from their side. David feels they pushed him
                      out of the house by restricting when he could use the
                      car, etc but in reality they were trying to raise him
                      according to how they believe. The same with their
                      trying so hard to prove it was "just a phase". They do
                      not understand our relationship. I told his father it
                      is not something that can be explained. You either get
                      it or you don't. In general we agree on most subjects
                      outside the religious realm. Then again I am fairly
                      conservative. For the most part we have agreed to
                      disagree. David is going to visit them over xmas but
                      doesnt want to go to their church xmas day. He has his
                      reasons, i know. I am trying to get him to see it as a
                      social visit rather than a return to the scene of the
                      crime. It isn't working. I just hope he doesn't lash
                      out at them while he is there. I am not joining him on
                      purpose. I feel his parents have to see him outside my
                      sphere of influence to truly believe he is who he is.
                      They do love him. They even buy ME holiday presents. I
                      am SO confused sometimes,lol.
                      Tom

                      --- Gary <garysdeskcom@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > Tom, what you describe sounds like
                      > deep love. Willing to love and
                      > support, even when they believe
                      > they've lost a son. I am sure,
                      > however, that their belief system
                      > has been a source of discomfort
                      > for you and your boyfriend.
                      >
                      > Gary
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In MatthewsPlaceForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom
                      > <mark19136@y...> wrote:
                      > > In all honesty my BF's parents are fundamentalists
                      > who
                      > > although they are convinced they have lost him for
                      > all
                      > > eternity continue to love and support him. This is
                      > not
                      > > saying they are happy he is gay. They tend to live
                      > > their beliefs instead of just pointing to the
                      > book.
                      > > This means their religion is theirs and not to be
                      > > forced on others. They have been a continual
                      > source of
                      > > surprise for me.
                      > > Tom
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Gary
                      My experience with abusive religion was from a different angle. I left an abusive cult. I can relate a little to what David is feeling, because I think
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 2, 2004
                        My experience with abusive religion
                        was from a different angle. I left
                        an abusive cult. I can relate a
                        little to what David is feeling,
                        because I think spiritual abuse
                        has a few common elements.

                        To a certain extent, David's
                        old church might always feel
                        like a crime scene. I do not
                        enjoy going to church with my
                        parents. There are times
                        when it is OK, but I never
                        feel comfortable, knowing how
                        savage that church can be
                        with people who are known to
                        have left.

                        In time, it might become a
                        little eaiser for David, but
                        it could take years. The pain
                        level can be very intense. He
                        might be hurting enough to say
                        things he will later regret.
                        I hope not, but that is part
                        of the reality I've seen with
                        a number of people who left
                        spiritually unhealthy churches.

                        I sense there is love and that
                        is wonderful Tom. :-) I know
                        it hurts a lot to not be either
                        understood or accepted. I think
                        those are the important elements
                        of love David is longing for.

                        I hope and pray things will go
                        well and that David's parents
                        will start to understand and to
                        accept things.

                        Gary
                      • Joe
                        That s the type of behavior ALL highly religious people should practice. I don t care who thinks I m going to hell (or will be reincarnated as a...whatever) as
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 2, 2004
                          That's the type of behavior ALL highly religious people should
                          practice. I don't care who thinks I'm going to hell (or will be
                          reincarnated as a...whatever) as long as they don't try to enforce
                          laws based on their religion. --- In
                          MatthewsPlaceForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom <mark19136@y...> wrote:
                          > In all honesty my BF's parents are fundamentalists who
                          > although they are convinced they have lost him for all
                          > eternity continue to love and support him. This is not
                          > saying they are happy he is gay. They tend to live
                          > their beliefs instead of just pointing to the book.
                          > This means their religion is theirs and not to be
                          > forced on others. They have been a continual source of
                          > surprise for me.
                          > Tom
                          >
                          > --- Joe <joetyupp@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Gary: I've always thought of fundamentalists
                          > > (fundies) as the trouble-
                          > > making, potentially-dangerous, Christians as opposed
                          > > to Christians in
                          > > general. Do you mean there are some fundamentalists
                          > > who are okay? ---
                          > > In MatthewsPlaceForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary"
                          > > <garysdeskcom@h...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Eric, I want you to know I am not
                          > > > angry or hurt by your post. I do
                          > > > need to make the point that not
                          > > > all fundamentalists are as you
                          > > > describe them.
                          > > >
                          > > > Gary
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
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                        • Joe
                          Hope it all works out, man. (Though anybody from San Francsco would tell you to go to that church with him and sit right in the front row wearing a BIG pink
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 2, 2004
                            Hope it all works out, man. (Though anybody from San Francsco would
                            tell you to go to that church with him and sit right in the front row
                            wearing a BIG pink triangle!) -- In
                            MatthewsPlaceForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom <mark19136@y...> wrote:
                            > David is hurt more than I am since I have been through
                            > all this from their side. David feels they pushed him
                            > out of the house by restricting when he could use the
                            > car, etc but in reality they were trying to raise him
                            > according to how they believe. The same with their
                            > trying so hard to prove it was "just a phase". They do
                            > not understand our relationship. I told his father it
                            > is not something that can be explained. You either get
                            > it or you don't. In general we agree on most subjects
                            > outside the religious realm. Then again I am fairly
                            > conservative. For the most part we have agreed to
                            > disagree. David is going to visit them over xmas but
                            > doesnt want to go to their church xmas day. He has his
                            > reasons, i know. I am trying to get him to see it as a
                            > social visit rather than a return to the scene of the
                            > crime. It isn't working. I just hope he doesn't lash
                            > out at them while he is there. I am not joining him on
                            > purpose. I feel his parents have to see him outside my
                            > sphere of influence to truly believe he is who he is.
                            > They do love him. They even buy ME holiday presents. I
                            > am SO confused sometimes,lol.
                            > Tom
                            >
                            > --- Gary <garysdeskcom@h...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Tom, what you describe sounds like
                            > > deep love. Willing to love and
                            > > support, even when they believe
                            > > they've lost a son. I am sure,
                            > > however, that their belief system
                            > > has been a source of discomfort
                            > > for you and your boyfriend.
                            > >
                            > > Gary
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In MatthewsPlaceForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom
                            > > <mark19136@y...> wrote:
                            > > > In all honesty my BF's parents are fundamentalists
                            > > who
                            > > > although they are convinced they have lost him for
                            > > all
                            > > > eternity continue to love and support him. This is
                            > > not
                            > > > saying they are happy he is gay. They tend to live
                            > > > their beliefs instead of just pointing to the
                            > > book.
                            > > > This means their religion is theirs and not to be
                            > > > forced on others. They have been a continual
                            > > source of
                            > > > surprise for me.
                            > > > Tom
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
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                          • johnpday@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
                            My landlord (a Kiwi if you still look in on us, Tick) is a defined agnostic, as is his father, while his siter is one of the tiney band of public pagans. He
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 2, 2004
                              My landlord (a Kiwi if you still look in on us, Tick) is a defined
                              agnostic, as is his father, while his siter is one of the tiney band of
                              public pagans. He makes the observation that he can usually find something
                              with the formally religious lacking in many ofwho share his views. They
                              actually do seem to feel some obligation to look after their neighbour.

                              That may well be: not my obsrervation, but his.



                              On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Gary wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > Joe, you make a good point. There are
                              > potentially very dangerous people in all
                              > fundamentalist religions.
                              >
                              > I view powerful fundamentalist church
                              > leaders as potentially dangerous. Some
                              > of those pastors have oratory skills to
                              > whip up a lot of emotion and to motivate
                              > people. While that can be positive, it
                              > can also be very dangerous and negative.
                              >
                              > The typical fundamentalist church goer
                              > is not really a dangerous person. I
                              > know many people who attend rather fundy
                              > churches who are very caring people
                              > and who would never knowingly hurt
                              > somebody. Some people who attend
                              > fundy churches are fairly moderate
                              > in their personal beliefs.
                              >
                              > I talked to the pastor of a rather
                              > fundy church once a few months ago.
                              > He had a man with full-blown AIDS over
                              > to his home many times for lunches
                              > and suppers. The pastor knew the man
                              > was gay and that made no difference
                              > to how he treated the man. Years
                              > later his kids, who were teenagers
                              > by then, learned this man who had
                              > eaten so many meals with them had
                              > AIDS. He told me he had a rather
                              > angry teenaged son for a few days.
                              >
                              > Gary
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              >
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