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RE: [MassBaySailors] Realistic Operating Costs of Boat Ownership

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  • richard usen
    Contact me offline and I ll give you details of my boat. ... From: MassBaySailors@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MassBaySailors@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
    Message 1 of 6 , May 27, 2006
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      Contact me offline and I'll give you details of my boat.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: MassBaySailors@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:MassBaySailors@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
      Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 8:30 PM
      To: MassBaySailors@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [MassBaySailors] Realistic Operating Costs of Boat Ownership


      Hello everyone,

      I would like to get some insight on the annual operating costs to
      own a boat. Any guidance with examples would be much appreciated. I
      would like to know details like:

      What does it cost to federally document a boat?

      How much do people pay for insurance? Is it based on a percentage of
      total boat value?

      How much does a haulout cost? Is it charged by foot? Does this also
      include the blocks?

      Are there yard charges if you need to block a boat for a few days to
      do maintenance? If so, how much? Is it a flat rate or per foot?

      Where do people store boats for the winter?

      Is it cheaper to store a boat in the water or in the yard? Is there
      pros/cons of keeping it in the water over the winter?

      How much does shrinkwrapping cost? Is that per foot?

      How often do you re-apply anti-fouling paint? Every other year? How
      long is it supposed to last?

      How much do zincs cost?

      Where are there reasonable slip rates? How much does a seasonal
      mooring cost? I know many of you belong to yacht clubs where it is
      cheaper for the summer than a marina, but I'm unsure if any
      seniority is needed to get a mooring if someone joins.

      List items and amounts of other misc operating expenses I missed
      besides fuel. Thanks in advance for all your help.

      Tim Haibach








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    • Doug Giuliana - SailTime
      Tim, There are lots of good questions here. I ll provide some details from my own fleet of boats. Documenting a boat is, I believe, a few hundred dollars if
      Message 2 of 6 , May 27, 2006
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        Tim,

        There are lots of good questions here. I'll provide some details from my own fleet of boats.

        Documenting a boat is, I believe, a few hundred dollars if you go through your lender.

        Insurance is going to vary greatly depending on size and value of boat. A new 30 footer valued at $100k is probably around $1750, assuming 6 months on-the-water and 6 months in storage.

        I use Boston Boat Works in East Boston for winter storage. I use their full-service plan, which takes care of the hauling, blocking, winterizing, shrinkwrap, storage, and re-commissioning in the spring including bottom paint and some maintenance. Total cost is about $4k. You could probably do lots of the work yourself and save a bunch; however, I'd rather spend my limited free time sailing rather than working on a boat. Note that I am not recommending BBW, but just providing an example.

        It's probably cheaper to leave a boat in the water over the winter, but sitting in salt water is certainly going to be harsher than sitting dry. Plus, it provides a good opportunity to get some work done on the vessel.

        Slip fees in Boston Harbor range from $119 to $150 a foot for 6 month summer season. Electric hookup is an extra $30 or so. Moorings are certainly cheaper, but I think you may have a harder time getting a mooring than a slip, though availability of both is better this year than in years past.

        I would also put aside about $750 a year for maintenance. While you won't spend that every year, when something bit does go (engine, sails, rigging), you'll want to make sure you have it covered. For a used boat, you probably have to put more aside.

        Note that these estimates are just my experience and opinion. I imagine that there are others out there that will have different numbers and alternate opinions.

        Doug
        SailTime
        ...for the time of your life!

        Douglyss Giuliana
        President
        SAILTIME BOSTON
        Telephone: 617-899-6815
        email: dougg@...
        web: www.sailtime.com


        Tim wrote:
        Hello everyone,

        I would like to get some insight on the annual operating costs to
        own a boat. Any guidance with examples would be much appreciated. I
        would like to know details like:

        What does it cost to federally document a boat?

        How much do people pay for insurance? Is it based on a percentage of
        total boat value?

        How much does a haulout cost? Is it charged by foot? Does this also
        include the blocks?

        Are there yard charges if you need to block a boat for a few days to
        do maintenance? If so, how much? Is it a flat rate or per foot?

        Where do people store boats for the winter?

        Is it cheaper to store a boat in the water or in the yard? Is there
        pros/cons of keeping it in the water over the winter?

        How much does shrinkwrapping cost? Is that per foot?

        How often do you re-apply anti-fouling paint? Every other year? How
        long is it supposed to last?

        How much do zincs cost?

        Where are there reasonable slip rates? How much does a seasonal
        mooring cost? I know many of you belong to yacht clubs where it is
        cheaper for the summer than a marina, but I'm unsure if any
        seniority is needed to get a mooring if someone joins.

        List items and amounts of other misc operating expenses I missed
        besides fuel. Thanks in advance for all your help.

        Tim Haibach




      • Bill Scanlon
        Tim, I posted the below to this site a few months ago. I would my non variable expenses are on the HIGH side, for me. ( my non-variable fees are; boat loan,
        Message 3 of 6 , May 28, 2006
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          Tim, I posted the below to this site a few months ago.  I would my non variable expenses are on the HIGH side, for me.  ("my" non-variable fees are; boat loan, insurance and slip fees).  there are definitely some "bargains" to be had in the used sailboat market and can easily get yourself into something very respectable in the $5k to $10k range, to start out with.

           
          Hi,
           
          This is an article written by an associate Rob Scanlan (no relation) in www.BostonBoating.com.
           
          I don't dispute it and I'm sure it most likely is very accurate for the typical power-boater.
           
          I list after it my own estimated annual boating expenses to highlight the potential saving of sailing and taking on much of your own maintenance.  I do this to hopefully lend some encouragement and palatable figures to any of you contemplating owning your own sailboat.
           
           
           
          HOW EXPENSIVE IS BOATING
          by Rob Scanlan, U.S. Master Marine Surveyor
           
          Let’s face it; boating isn’t easy or cheap. Boat prices keep rising, fuel costs keep escalating; slip fees, winter storage and repairs are at an all-time high. Add to that the time and energy required for boat maintenance, keeping up with the ever changing regulations, weather, tide conditions and the new environmental restrictions; the list in front of me goes on and on.
           
          In the end, boat ownership is for those who enjoy boating so much they are ready, willing and able to put up with the hassles and give up other forms of entertainment and sports. It leaves behind those who would enjoy being out on the water if only it did not cost so much or take so much time to prepare for, to clean up after, etc.
           
          So many of them are former boat owners, who had no idea about the incredible costs involved in boating.
           
          When I conduct the sea trials on a smaller boat or yacht, I have my own computers plugged into the engines to do an operational assessment of the engines and instrumentation read-out performances; one thing here, my computers and the figures are accurate and precise – the figures do not lie.
          Let’s say you have a 29’ Sea Ray powerboat with (2) small-block, 230 horsepower Mercruiser Fuel-Injected engines. The best fuel-efficient, most economical speed is called "Cruising Speed". This is between half and three-quarter engine throttle; usually at 3200 – 3500 RPM’s. Each engine is burning 17-19 gallons of fuel per hour times (2) engines; that’s 36-gallons per hour. The average gallon of gasoline at the marina is $3.25 per gallon. The math –36 gallons times $3.25/gallon = $117.00 per hour. If you take a cruise from Gloucester to Boston Harbor; around Boston Harbor for a little sight-seeing and back to Gloucester, this would be a five and one-half hour trip.
           
          The math - five and one-half hours times $117.00 per hour = $643.50 for the trip if you only stay at "Cruising Speed". Now let’s say you only do a trip like this twice per month and you only do your boating from June to October which is the average boating season in New England, more math – $643.50 twice per month = $1287.00 per month of boating, times five months = $6435.00 per boating season in just the fuel costs; if you keep the engines at the "Cruising Speed". "Can you hear me now" throttle-jockeys ?
           
          What must also be factored into boating is that monthly payment; let’s say $400.00 times twelve months = $4,800.00. I do not know of one boat owner in New England with a low boat payment any where near this but work with me. Now there is insurance, and God help you if you are above a step-10 on your Massachusetts driving record; have no boating education, or have a loss or insurance claim. But ideally, with proven boating experience; and proof of boating education, you may pay $900.00 per year to insure that "Water Toy" if and if and if ---.
           
          Now comes the storage, winterizing, covering and spring commissioning. Figures and facts can’t be altered here; that 29’ boat will cost another $5,250.00 - $6900.00 per year; lets say $6 grand to make the figures easy. More math for the boat owner based on a conservative boating season-
          Fuel $6,435.00
          Boat payment 4,800.00
          Insurance 900.00
          Storage, winterizing, spring maintenance 6,000.00
          Slip-fee or mooring fee 2,000.00
          Food, beverages; swimwear, etc 525.00
          Bottom painting, engine tune-up waxing/cleaning 2,125.00
          Total boating expenses for the year $22,785.00
          Now you know what BOAT = Break Out Another Thousand
           
           
          The above is a gas guzzling power boat owned by someone who "pays" to have most everything done.
           
          Here are my approximated annual expenses relative to above.
          I reveal this personal info to only bring to light to any of you budding sailboaters among us who are trying to estimate an annual boat budget.
           
          Fuel my Catalina 30 has an 18 Gallon Tank.
          If we don’t cruise a few weeks each summer we only us about 3 tanks per season
          If we do cruise we may use up to 6 tanks MAX …
          Let’s Assume 5 tanks of 18 gallons at 2006 fuel prices, 18 * 5 * $2.75.
          Fuel $275.00
          Boat payment mine are $285 per month * 12 = $3,420.00
          I could easily trade up to a Catalina 34 or 36 and still stay UNDER $400 per month.
          Insurance for a 1984 Catalina 30, $750.00 (1 head sail claim in 1999)
          Storage $55 per boat length foot, at Admiral’s Hill Marina in Chelsea (this ranges from $25 to $60) $1,650.00
          If I keep my boat in-the-water wet-storage at my YC it's $12 per foot plus utilities
          $12 * 30 + $150 (utils) = $510.
          Winterizing; I do it myself, supplies? $200
          $44 per foot, in water at Constitution Marina, Boston Waterfront Living!
          Slip-fee or mooring fee at our YC $995 for a 35 foot slip.
          YC annual dues & fees $400
          Mooring about $200 each year.
          Town Waterway Fee & Excise Taxes $275.00
          Food, beverages; vacation mooring fees, etc 500.00
          Bottom painting Top Brand Ablative paint from WM $175.00
          There isn’t a year that goes by I couldn’t (or don’t) spend a $1,000 on new gear, electronics etc..
           
           
          $3,420.00
          $ 750.00
          $1,650.00
          $ 200.00
          $ 275.00
          $ 995.00
          $ 400.00
          $ 200.00
          $ 500.00
          $ 175.00
          $1,000.00
          = $9,565.00 or $8,425.00 (if I store at YC in water for the winter)
          The above in a year I stay in-water in winter at YC $9,565.00 – (1650 - $510) = $8,425.00
          $22,785.00 - $9,565.00 = $13,220 less than my power-boating counterpart
          or
          $22,785.00 - $8,425.00 = $14,360 less than my (non-scrimping) power-boating counterpart
           
           


          Bill Scanlon
          USCG Master 50 GT Inland Waters
          Towing & Sailing Endorsements
          Lic. # 1092926
          1984 Catalina 30
          "Ruby"
          Std. Rig  Hull#  3688
          Winthrop (Mass.) Yacht Club
           
          Navigare necesse est, vivere non est necesse


          Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
        • Ahmet
          The operating costs of a Bristol 26, original purchase cost $11,000 Mooring Fees: $310/year Insurance : $350/year Gas/Maintenance: Negligible, 9.9 hp 2 stroke
          Message 4 of 6 , May 28, 2006
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            The operating costs of a Bristol 26, original purchase cost $11,000
            Mooring Fees: $310/year
            Insurance : $350/year
            Gas/Maintenance: Negligible, 9.9 hp 2 stroke outboard.. say $50/year
            Bottom paint (every 2 years) $150/year
            Houlout every 2 years: 100/year
            Wet Winter storage: $1040/year
            Registration/Permits etc: $260/year
             
            I don't have to worry about rigging and sail maintenance for another 15 years on this one, but otherwise,
            they can add up to $3000
            Likewise, because of the outboard, the batteries have a much easier time, otherwise, it is prudent to get new batteries every 4 years,
            i.e. $40/yr
             
             
            On a 300 Sea Ray Sundancer, original purchase cost $28,000 considering all work is done b a yard
            Motor winterizing: $500, comissioning, $300, winter storage, $2000, gas .. depends... $4/mile $ bottom paint $400
            Mooring $310/yr Insurance $800/yr Reg/permits $260/yr
            Misc expenses for repairs can easily average $3000/yr if you don't do things yourself
            Batteries, $50/yr, other maint, averaged over 5 years, $500/yr
             
            On a 36 Catalina, liveaboard: 
            WInter costs, Shrinkwrap, $500/yr, docking, electricty etc $3000/yr, mooring #310/yr Diesel $100/yr insurance $1000/yr
            Reg/permits $260/yr Bottom $300/yr, haulout $ 300/yr (averaged over 2 years)  Batteries $50/yr
             
             
            A Mac Gregor 26 Trailor Sailor, basically has insurance/registration, bottom paint and incidental maintenance expenses.
             
            If you add these, and other incidentals up (I did it on a sreadsheet) the costs come to:
            Bristol 26 : $2340
            Sea Ray 30: $5820
            Catalina 36: $6000
            MacGregor 26: $1200
             
            Thes are the absolute low end of the costs, living on a budget.. I have seen people getting by with less by not doing bottom painting, and leaving their boat at the mooring in the winter.
            If you decide to live on a marina, do the bottom every year, you can easily add $5000/yr to this.
            If you like to have the latest electronics, radar, etc, the sky is the limit, now you are talking 10s of thousands. 
             
            The basic assumptions are:
            No gadgets, toys purchased for the boats, No major breakages, long term maintenance items such as manifolts on power boats, or sail and rigging are in good shape, the trailor sailor is only used on weekends and stored at a backyard
             
            The reality of the matter is that things like cauilking the windows, fixing up rigging, things that break, getting toys etc, the numbers for the larger boats (30 ft and up) can actually significantly increase.
             
            That is one of the things that I appreciate about a well maintained good old small boat :)
            Ahmet
            .
             
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 8:42 AM
            Subject: [MassBaySailors] Realistic Operating Costs of Boat Ownership

            Tim, I posted the below to this site a few months ago.  I would my non variable expenses are on the HIGH side, for me.  ("my" non-variable fees are; boat loan, insurance and slip fees).  there are definitely some "bargains" to be had in the used sailboat market and can easily get yourself into something very respectable in the $5k to $10k range, to start out with.

             
            Hi,
             
            This is an article written by an associate Rob Scanlan (no relation) in www.BostonBoating.com.
             
            I don't dispute it and I'm sure it most likely is very accurate for the typical power-boater.
             
            I list after it my own estimated annual boating expenses to highlight the potential saving of sailing and taking on much of your own maintenance.  I do this to hopefully lend some encouragement and palatable figures to any of you contemplating owning your own sailboat.
             
             
             
            HOW EXPENSIVE IS BOATING
            by Rob Scanlan, U.S. Master Marine Surveyor
             
            Let’s face it; boating isn’t easy or cheap. Boat prices keep rising, fuel costs keep escalating; slip fees, winter storage and repairs are at an all-time high. Add to that the time and energy required for boat maintenance, keeping up with the ever changing regulations, weather, tide conditions and the new environmental restrictions; the list in front of me goes on and on.
             
            In the end, boat ownership is for those who enjoy boating so much they are ready, willing and able to put up with the hassles and give up other forms of entertainment and sports. It leaves behind those who would enjoy being out on the water if only it did not cost so much or take so much time to prepare for, to clean up after, etc.
             
            So many of them are former boat owners, who had no idea about the incredible costs involved in boating.
             
            When I conduct the sea trials on a smaller boat or yacht, I have my own computers plugged into the engines to do an operational assessment of the engines and instrumentation read-out performances; one thing here, my computers and the figures are accurate and precise – the figures do not lie.
            Let’s say you have a 29’ Sea Ray powerboat with (2) small-block, 230 horsepower Mercruiser Fuel-Injected engines. The best fuel-efficient, most economical speed is called "Cruising Speed". This is between half and three-quarter engine throttle; usually at 3200 – 3500 RPM’s. Each engine is burning 17-19 gallons of fuel per hour times (2) engines; that’s 36-gallons per hour. The average gallon of gasoline at the marina is $3.25 per gallon. The math –36 gallons times $3.25/gallon = $117.00 per hour. If you take a cruise from Gloucester to Boston Harbor; around Boston Harbor for a little sight-seeing and back to Gloucester, this would be a five and one-half hour trip.
             
            The math - five and one-half hours times $117.00 per hour = $643.50 for the trip if you only stay at "Cruising Speed". Now let’s say you only do a trip like this twice per month and you only do your boating from June to October which is the average boating season in New England, more math – $643.50 twice per month = $1287.00 per month of boating, times five months = $6435.00 per boating season in just the fuel costs; if you keep the engines at the "Cruising Speed". "Can you hear me now" throttle-jockeys ?
             
            What must also be factored into boating is that monthly payment; let’s say $400.00 times twelve months = $4,800.00. I do not know of one boat owner in New England with a low boat payment any where near this but work with me. Now there is insurance, and God help you if you are above a step-10 on your Massachusetts driving record; have no boating education, or have a loss or insurance claim. But ideally, with proven boating experience; and proof of boating education, you may pay $900.00 per year to insure that "Water Toy" if and if and if ---.
             
            Now comes the storage, winterizing, covering and spring commissioning. Figures and facts can’t be altered here; that 29’ boat will cost another $5,250.00 - $6900.00 per year; lets say $6 grand to make the figures easy. More math for the boat owner based on a conservative boating season-
            Fuel $6,435.00
            Boat payment 4,800.00
            Insurance 900.00
            Storage, winterizing, spring maintenance 6,000.00
            Slip-fee or mooring fee 2,000.00
            Food, beverages; swimwear, etc 525.00
            Bottom painting, engine tune-up waxing/cleaning 2,125.00
            Total boating expenses for the year $22,785.00
            Now you know what BOAT = Break Out Another Thousand
             
             
            The above is a gas guzzling power boat owned by someone who "pays" to have most everything done.
             
            Here are my approximated annual expenses relative to above.
            I reveal this personal info to only bring to light to any of you budding sailboaters among us who are trying to estimate an annual boat budget.
             
            Fuel my Catalina 30 has an 18 Gallon Tank.
            If we don’t cruise a few weeks each summer we only us about 3 tanks per season
            If we do cruise we may use up to 6 tanks MAX …
            Let’s Assume 5 tanks of 18 gallons at 2006 fuel prices, 18 * 5 * $2.75.
            Fuel $275.00
            Boat payment mine are $285 per month * 12 = $3,420.00
            I could easily trade up to a Catalina 34 or 36 and still stay UNDER $400 per month.
            Insurance for a 1984 Catalina 30, $750.00 (1 head sail claim in 1999)
            Storage $55 per boat length foot, at Admiral’s Hill Marina in Chelsea (this ranges from $25 to $60) $1,650.00
            If I keep my boat in-the-water wet-storage at my YC it's $12 per foot plus utilities
            $12 * 30 + $150 (utils) = $510.
            Winterizing; I do it myself, supplies? $200
            $44 per foot, in water at Constitution Marina, Boston Waterfront Living!
            Slip-fee or mooring fee at our YC $995 for a 35 foot slip.
            YC annual dues & fees $400
            Mooring about $200 each year.
            Town Waterway Fee & Excise Taxes $275.00
            Food, beverages; vacation mooring fees, etc 500.00
            Bottom painting Top Brand Ablative paint from WM $175.00
            There isn’t a year that goes by I couldn’t (or don’t) spend a $1,000 on new gear, electronics etc..
             
             
            $3,420.00
            $ 750.00
            $1,650.00
            $ 200.00
            $ 275.00
            $ 995.00
            $ 400.00
            $ 200.00
            $ 500.00
            $ 175.00
            $1,000.00
            = $9,565.00 or $8,425.00 (if I store at YC in water for the winter)
            The above in a year I stay in-water in winter at YC $9,565.00 – (1650 - $510) = $8,425.00
            $22,785.00 - $9,565.00 = $13,220 less than my power-boating counterpart
            or
            $22,785.00 - $8,425.00 = $14,360 less than my (non-scrimping) power-boating counterpart
             
             


            Bill Scanlon
            USCG Master 50 GT Inland Waters
            Towing & Sailing Endorsements
            Lic. # 1092926
            1984 Catalina 30
            "Ruby"
            Std. Rig  Hull#  3688
            Winthrop (Mass.) Yacht Club
             
            Navigare necesse est, vivere non est necesse


            Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

          • Barry Needalman
            The costs to maintain a boat can vary a lot. It depends on where you keep your boat and how much maintenance you are willing and able to do yourself. The
            Message 5 of 6 , May 30, 2006
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              The costs to maintain a boat can vary a lot.  It depends on where you keep your boat and how much maintenance you are willing and able to do yourself. 
               
              The Federal documentation fee is paid once when you buy the boat (transfer ownership).   The documentation is renewed each year, but there is no fee.  It is possible to do the paperwork yourself.
               
              In Massachusetts, there is an excise tax (based on the "value" of the boat) similar to the excise tax on cars.  Most cities and towns also require a mooring or docking permit, generally based on the length of the boat.
               
              My highest costs (in order) are: 1) the mortgage, 2) summer dockage, and 3) winter storage, including shrinkwrap, bottom paint, and spring cleanup.  Where you keep your boat has a major influence on the cost.   I'm spending about 15% of the original boat cost every year in total costs.  That's probably toward the high side since I'm at a commercial slip in Boston Harbor, have the yard do the shrinkwrap, etc., and generally do some system upgrade every season in addition to fixing whatever stops working.
               
              Keeping the boat on a mooring, rather than at a slip can save a lot of money.  However, you have to have a way to get to the boat other than swimming.  Don't forget to ask about dingy storage, launch service, and parking.  There will probably be a charge.  Even so, moorings are a lot less expensive.
               
              Most people winter on land.  Generally the haul and launch costs are included in the winter storage fee.  When you are on land, the bottom paint isn't used up and there is a lower chance of blisters and osmosis.  Most yards have access to electricity and water in the storage area to facilitate off season maintenance work.  Of course, if you are in the water you can sail on the occaisonal off season warm day.
               
              A low purchase price is attractive, but it might not be such a great deal if there is a lot of work to do on the boat.  The price of the boat can be paid through a 20 year mortgage, but the repair costs (parts and labor) must be paid out of pocket.  Another big factor is the complexity of the boat's systems.  The fewer things there are to go wrong (heads, refrigeration, electronics, etc.), the lower the maintenance costs and time required.
               
              Call a few yards in the area where you want to keep the boat and get some actual figures.  Call the local harbormaster and ask about mooring options.
               
              Practical Sailor magazine (http:\\www.practical-sailor.com) is the Consumer Reports of the sailing world.
               
              On 5/27/06, Tim <c2csailor@...> wrote:
              Hello everyone,

              I would like to get some insight on the annual operating costs to
              own a boat. Any guidance with examples would be much appreciated. I
              would like to know details like:

              What does it cost to federally document a boat?

              How much do people pay for insurance? Is it based on a percentage of
              total boat value?

              How much does a haulout cost? Is it charged by foot? Does this also
              include the blocks?

              Are there yard charges if you need to block a boat for a few days to
              do maintenance? If so, how much? Is it a flat rate or per foot?

              Where do people store boats for the winter?

              Is it cheaper to store a boat in the water or in the yard? Is there
              pros/cons of keeping it in the water over the winter?

              How much does shrinkwrapping cost? Is that per foot?

              How often do you re-apply anti-fouling paint? Every other year? How
              long is it supposed to last?

              How much do zincs cost?

              Where are there reasonable slip rates? How much does a seasonal
              mooring cost? I know many of you belong to yacht clubs where it is
              cheaper for the summer than a marina, but I'm unsure if any
              seniority is needed to get a mooring if someone joins.

              List items and amounts of other misc operating expenses I missed
              besides fuel. Thanks in advance for all your help.

              Tim Haibach






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