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Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Check out this video

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  • slosilveralfa173
    Thanks David, What do you expect from a University of Maryland/University College  graduate ... From: David&Carol To: Marlboro
    Message 1 of 35 , Jun 12, 2013
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      Thanks David,

       

      What do you expect from a University of Maryland/University College  graduate

       

      : ) sam


      From: "David&Carol" <scshmoo@...>
      To: "Marlboro Raceway" <Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 5:49:15 PM
      Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Check out this video

      Hi Sam,


      Charlie's SWB was 2237 GT. It was the SWB built immediately before mine (2243) in between are a couple of GT/Es.

      Regards,

      David
      Kauai


      On 12 Jun 2013, at 10:57, Sam_Smith01@... wrote:



      Hi Michael, Bob and Jock,

       

      My very good friend David Seielstad, a fellow Marlborophile, will clear much of this up when he has the time -- but here's my two cents up front: I spent much <probably to much> time talking with Gordon in the twenty-five or so years before his recent demise
      He said he took a bus up to Chinetti's in NY, NY first time in 1957 -- eventually buying a 410 Super America <I think> that had problems and had come back into Chinetti's on trade. They taught him what to do to fix the car - that was Gordon's start with Ferraris - and with Chinettis shops in NY, NY and Greenwich, Conn. As long as Gordon could produce "cash" Papa Chinetti had a ready supply of tired ex-factory or "customer" race cars for Gordon to buy -- 500TRC, 250TR, 250TR59, 250GT SWBs, 250GTOs, 275LM, 250/275/330P, 330P3, 350Can Am <converted 330P4> all these cars back in the day before Marlboro closed in 1968 -- Many more interesting Ferraris in the 1970's and into the early 1980's for customers that wanted cars for their collections

       

      Gordon hooked up with and helped Charlie Hayes in about 1960 with an alloy 250GT SWB Berlinetta s/n 2377GT that Charlie raced in A Production in 1961 and 62 - I met Gordon at about that time when he was also helping Bobby Hurt race an ex-factory 250 Testa Rossa -- aTR59 s/n 0766TR <got my first Ferrari ride in that car - a short one from his trailer to tech inspection in the center of the Marlboro paddock>  Michael, I saw the accident with Koenigsberg coming off the bowl and into the guard rail <I knocked a lit cigarette out of a guys mouth as he walked toward the wreck> Koenigsberg wanted to fight somebody -- Gordon had to restrain him. I do not remember for sure what the serial number of the car was or what happened to it <possibly s/n 3005GT a late 250GT SWB Berlinetta ":SEFAC" Hot Rod racer that was around Gordon's Kensington shop then>.  Gordon was never friendly to peasants like me back before his time as a guest of the Federal Govt. in the early seventies. "no money, no time" -- But, he was fine after several "times away".
      Everyone who truly knows the story agrees Gordon had a lot that he could have done "right" in this business -- and made a fair living for himself and his family -- it seems it just wasn't in him and as he would say, "it was their fault !" <his customers!>  I say to bad

       

      Regards,
      Sam Smith


      From: "Jock Ellis" <jockellis@...>
      To: "Marlboro Raceway" <Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 2:43:32 PM
      Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Check out this video


      You've never read of Phil Hill talk about how Enzo voiced concern for his race cars and listeners would ask whether he had concerns for the drivers? According to Hill, drivers were only a secondary concern, if that, and he pitted drivers against themselves to push them to drive faster. 
      I agree that the history makes the car. Does the value of a race Ferrari depend upon which drivers raced it?
      Jock

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jun 12, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Bob <bstorck@...> wrote:

       

      If they never had gone out on the track, they'd be worth Jack Squat!!

      ... it they existed at all.

      Remember that back in the day, I bought several used 250/330GTs for $2-5K and a 275GTB4 for $7K ... all running. A friend found a Lambo Muria abandoned in a field in Cleveland where it had sat for years. The ex-Moss, GTO was raced by Team Rosebud, and then donated to Victoria, TX high school. When they auctioned it about '72, supposedly via sealed mail bid, my $4025 offer was strangely only a few bucks short! In the 80s, I tried to buy a Muria in Detroit from a local convenience store rag listing for less than $10K ... it had a Pontiac thunderchicken decal on the hood. The owner gave me such a 100+mph, tire screeching demo ride on downtown freeways that the police intervened, and suggested that I leave. 

      Times Change. 

      Cheers, Bob
      btw - that same lime green GTO just sold for $25 million!

      On 6/12/2013 1:09 PM, Jock Ellis wrote:
      At what GTOs and LMs are bringing now it's hard to believe Enzo allowed them out on the track. 
      Jock

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jun 12, 2013, at 1:17 PM, Bob <bstorck@...> wrote:

       

      An amazing number of truly legendary Ferraris went through Gordons hands, including many NART cars that didn't find buyers after Sebring, Nassau and Daytona. Pete Sherman wound up with a Tatum Lusso or two, and there were at least two ICE GTOs, a whole host of 250 and 330GTs and my 275GTB4.

      Bob Hurt was one of Gordon's "clients" and I recall a flap when the ex-Andretti enduro winning car (330P?) showed up at Marlboro and the roll bar height rules had been changed. Hurt squawked about it being legal for Daytona or whatever, and the tech guys pointed out that Bob was 6" taller than Mario. 

      I believe that car wound up with a normal engine after Harvey Cluxton blew the race engine on the street, and putting that historic car back together involved some nasty lawsuits, and someone blowing up Harvey's helicopter.

      Cheers, Bob

      On 6/12/2013 11:23 AM, MIchael Ling wrote:
      Hi Sam, thanks for the update on Gordon Tatum.  Of course at the time, in 1966, I was mesmerized by his GTO.  At today's GTO money, it's hard to believe that Gordon was banging it around at SCCA regional races. I did wondered how much was Gordon's driving and how much was the car.  I think Gordon did have more than a bit of talent.  I also thought there was a bit of jealousy in the pit.  I recalled that behind his back, his name was 'Tata', denoted his upperty mannerism.  I was not awared of his dealings until when I enrolled in law school here in California, 1979.  I was assigned to research on a case named "Maryland vs. Tatum". Sam, you can well imagined my shock to read the name Gordon Tatum on the complaint.  It was a convoluted 3-party deal involved Gordon, a purchasing client, and Chinetti on a lightweight Ferrari Daytona.  I somewhat dismissed the case as typical when dealing Chinetti.  However some years later when  I mentioned the case to a member within the Ferrari circle, the individual was not surprised, as evidently Gordon has acquired a less than stellar standing within the Ferrari circle.  All rather tragic don't you think?  With his God given talents, he would have gone FAR onhe right side of the law.  I have seen this before, I attributed it to character flaw.
          May be you can help me on this one, Sam.  In 1965-1966, Gordon mentored a kid named Koenigsberg.  This wealthy rookie showed up at the Marlboro driver school with a Ferrai SWB.  Not just any SWB, but one with Testa Rossa engine, with scooped 6 dual Webers.  He lost it and the car went back to Italy and back into his hand.  Well, at his first race back, he came up to Warren Shamlian while the cars lined up on the Bowl and told Warren that he is going to beat Warren ( in his Elva).  I recalled that Koenigsberg was more thaa few rows behind Warren.  When the flag fell, the kid did make a few brave moves, passed few cars while still on the bowl.  Saddly, he flew off the bowl's drop off and lost it on landing, brought out scattered chaos onto the left side of the track.  That was fortunate because the guards were on the right side.  I have wondered whatever happened to both Kenigsberg and that very very special 250 SWB.
                                                                                                               Michael

      From: "Sam_Smith01@..." <Sam_Smith01@...>
      To: Marlboro Raceway <Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com> 
      Cc: Marlboro Raceway <Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com> 
      Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 7:31 AM
      Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Check out this video



      Hi Folks
       
      For those that did not know, Gordon Tatum, Jr. died February 9th, 2012 <born July 5th, 1940> -- Gordon suffered heat stroke in 2008 or 9 and was housed in a state sponsored nursing home. His family requested that Gordon not be contacted after his stroke -- a friend saw mention of Gordon's passing in a "Rodder's Journal" article that talked about his front engine dragster "The Surfer" and emailed me. Gordon was quite a character <sometimes a bad one> - I believe most would agree - he did "business" in Kensington as Internal Combustion Engines, later had shops in Shady Grove and near the Montgomery County Air Park. Gordon did bring many fine ex-factory Ferrari race cars to Marlboro and VIR when no one else did -- He had extraordinary examples of Ferraris and other exotic cars through his shop(s). I for one hope he found some piece at the end
       
      Regards,
      Sam Smith



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    • David&Carol
      Hi Ray, When Gordon got out of the USAF in late 1962 he opened up the shop on Gasoline Alley. That must have been about the time that Charlie closed up his
      Message 35 of 35 , Jun 28, 2013
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        Hi Ray,

        When Gordon got out of the USAF in late 1962 he opened up the shop on "Gasoline Alley." That must have been about the time that Charlie closed up his shop further down Plyers Mill (10521 Summit Ave.).

        Hayes started using Gordon's shop to display and sell his cars from.

        Was just reading in Comp Press about Gene Hobbs and Charlie opening the "Knickerbacher  Club (?think that was the name). The short piece in CP gave the address. That was sometime in 1963. Charlie also parked his cars behind an apartment building on East West  Highway near BCC. I remember seeing the 250 TR on its trailer in Nov 1960. I believe he lived in the building, so the SWB would have been parked there too.

        Rattus  Walter’s Ford, that had won the Charolette NASCRAP race in 1962, came to Marlboro for the Refrigerator Bowl races in January 1963 with Elmo Langley
        driving. It was hampered by a lack of road racing tires. Langley tried with slicks, but spun out on icy patches. With dirt track tires the car handled better, but still did not have the grip to defeat the Corvette Sting
        Rays of Dr. Dick Thompson, Don Yenko and the Porsche Carrera of Bruce Jennings in a five lap race of the road course.

        Attached two photos I took that day.

        Best wishes,

        David 

        Kauai



        On 28 Jun 2013, at 08:28, Ray Fleming wrote:

        David and Carol, thanks for clarification re Bob Hurt. Obviously, we're talking about the shop in that gasoline alley in Kensington. I remembered it as being owned by Charlie Hayes, but I was wrong. Do you folks remember when Charlie owned that bar/restaurant/nightclub on Wisconsin Ave., just a block or so inside DC. When there, he parked the 250GTSWB out front and one night somebody sugared his gas tank. And, further downtown, there was a bar called Café Burgundy. The owner had a NASCAR Grand National Ford that that he once ran at Marlboro in a 5-lap exhibition race against a Lotus.  My memory is that the Ford was driven by Elmo Langley, the Lotus by owner Ralph Williams, and that the Lotus won.  Can anyone verify or correct?

        Your Bob Hurt response was very useful. I'm 71, and I've spent my life doing stuff that could hurt a person (racing SCCA, Motocross, flying, sailboat racing, hunting moose/caribou/grizzlies  north of the Arctic Circle, three forced landings, etc.). Ironically, in 2007 I fell backwards down some stairs in my own living room. The result was a broken neck (repaired) and permanent spinal cord injuries, so I'm confined to either my bed or my 6-speed electric chair. I read Gordon's obit and realize that his situation was way worse than mine, and for decades longer.

        --- In Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com, David&Carol <scshmoo@...> wrote:

        Hi Ray,

        Gordon's Father was Gordon Russel Tatum, Sr. He worked at the Applied Physics Lab (APL/JHU 8621 Georgia Ave) in Silver Spring during the war developing the VT proximity fuse for artillery shells. In the early 1950s he left APL/JHU and founded Vitro Labs. First located across from Pumphery's Funeral Home above the Masons. The nice building on Georgia  Ave extended beyond Olney was built toward the end of the 1950s.

        Gordon had the shop on 3837  Plyers Mill Road in Kensington (behind the fire house). Charlie used it as a base and showroom.

        Bob Hurt was a male model and very good driver. I think he raced sports cars before he was 21.  He never crashed at Marlboro. His injury happened during practice for the 1968  Indy 500. He was driving #14 Quaker State and backed into the SW turn wall. A suspension part or the roll bar was pushed into his neck. He was paralysed for the rest of his life.

        Best wishes,

        David
        Kauai
        On 12 Jun 2013, at 12:08, Ray Fleming wrote:



        RE: Ferrari prices...in about '66 or so, there was a used car lot on the west side of US1, right at a light about 100 yards south of the US1/DC beltway interchange. They had a 250GT SWB Berlinetta, painted kinda bright yellow, with a price of $3,995. on the hood. I stopped my Volvo 123-GT to look at it. It had obviously undergone some quick and dirty bodywork, and at the time, I was making about $500 bucks a month with a baby, so, end of story.

        Also, am I getting Gordon Tatum and Charlie Hayes confused? I know that Hayes had a shop in Kensington, because In about 63 or 64, he did a tuneup on my 54 TR-2. In his showroom, there sat a red Ferrari (a Testa Rosa, I think), and on that day I met a guy named Hal Booher who became a lifelong SCCA/dirtbike/taildragger flying buddy. At the time, he raced a white Elva Courier; some of you may remember Hal. (We were both getting a Hayes-hosing that day.)

        Also, wasn't Tatum the son of the guy that owned Vitro Laboratories in northern Montgomery Co?

        Lastly, my recollection is that it was Bob Hurt who wrecked his Ferrari in the chicane, and further, that he was then a full or semi-parapalegic for the rest of his life. Can anyone verify that. And, I thought he was real young at that time; where did he get all that dough?



        From: David&Carol <scshmoo@...>
        To: Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 5:07 PM
        Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Check out this video
        Hi Bob,

        The car you describe sounds like a 330 P serial 0810, but I do not think it was ever raced by Andretti.

        0810 started life as a 250 P then was upgraded by the factory to 330P.

        Pedro Rodriguez raced it (Pedro was short) as did John (Buck) Fulp, Skip Hudson and Bob Grossman.

        Regards,

        David
        Kauai
        On 12 Jun 2013, at 07:17, Bob wrote:
        An amazing number of truly legendary Ferraris went through Gordons hands, including many NART cars that didn't find buyers after Sebring, Nassau and Daytona. Pete Sherman wound up with a Tatum Lusso or two, and there were at least two ICE GTOs, a whole host of 250 and 330GTs and my 275GTB4.

        Bob Hurt was one of Gordon's "clients" and I recall a flap when the ex-Andretti enduro winning car (330P?) showed up at Marlboro and the roll bar height rules had been changed. Hurt squawked about it being legal for Daytona or whatever, and the tech guys pointed out that Bob was 6" taller than Mario.

        I believe that car wound up with a normal engine after Harvey Cluxton blew the race engine on the street, and putting that historic car back together involved some nasty lawsuits, and someone blowing up Harvey's helicopter.

        Cheers, Bob

        On 6/12/2013 11:23 AM, MIchael Ling wrote:
        Hi Sam, thanks for the update on Gordon Tatum.  Of course at the time, in 1966, I was mesmerized by his GTO.  At today's GTO money, it's hard to believe that Gordon was banging it around at SCCA regional races. I did wondered how much was Gordon's driving and how much was the car.  I think Gordon did have more than a bit of talent.  I also thought there was a bit of jealousy in the pit.  I recalled that behind his back, his name was 'Tata', denoted his upperty mannerism.  I was not awared of his dealings until when I enrolled in law school here in California, 1979.  I was assigned to research on a case named "Maryland vs. Tatum". Sam, you can well imagined my shock to read the name Gordon Tatum on the complaint.  It was a convoluted 3-party deal involved Gordon, a purchasing client, and Chinetti on a lightweight Ferrari Daytona.  I somewhat dismissed the case as typical when dealing Chinetti.  However some years later when  I mentioned the case to a member within the Ferrari circle, the individual was not surprised, as evidently Gordon has acquired a less than stellar standing within the Ferrari circle.  All rather tragic don't you think?  With his God given talents, he would have gone FAR onhe right side of the law.  I have seen this before, I attributed it to character flaw.
           May be you can help me on this one, Sam.  In 1965-1966, Gordon mentored a kid named Koenigsberg.  This wealthy rookie showed up at the Marlboro driver school with a Ferrai SWB.  Not just any SWB, but one with Testa Rossa engine, with scooped 6 dual Webers.  He lost it and the car went back to Italy and back into his hand.  Well, at his first race back, he came up to Warren Shamlian while the cars lined up on the Bowl and told Warren that he is going to beat Warren ( in his Elva).  I recalled that Koenigsberg was more thaa few rows behind Warren.  When the flag fell, the kid did make a few brave moves, passed few cars while still on the bowl.  Saddly, he flew off the bowl's drop off and lost it on landing, brought out scattered chaos onto the left side of the track.  That was fortunate because the guards were on the right side.  I have wondered whatever happened to both Kenigsberg and that very very special 250 SWB.
                                                                                                                Michael

        From: mailto:Sam_Smith01@... mailto:Sam_Smith01@...
        To: Marlboro Raceway mailto:Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: Marlboro Raceway mailto:Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 7:31 AM
        Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Check out this video

        Hi Folks

        For those that did not know, Gordon Tatum, Jr. died February 9th, 2012 <born July 5th, 1940> -- Gordon suffered heat stroke in 2008 or 9 and was housed in a state sponsored nursing home. His family requested that Gordon not be contacted after his stroke -- a friend saw mention of Gordon's passing in a "Rodder's Journal" article that talked about his front engine dragster "The Surfer" and emailed me. Gordon was quite a character <sometimes a bad one> - I believe most would agree - he did "business" in Kensington as Internal Combustion Engines, later had shops in Shady Grove and near the Montgomery County Air Park. Gordon did bring many fine ex-factory Ferrari race cars to Marlboro and VIR when no one else did -- He had extraordinary examples of Ferraris and other exotic cars through his shop(s). I for one hope he found some piece at the end

        Regards,
        Sam Smith





        e1



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