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suminagashi

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  • Milena Hughes
    Greetings Marblers- I recently had the opportunity (?) to test erasable watercolor pigments from the manufacturer: DUVA. These pigments are recycled inks
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 11, 2001
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      Greetings Marblers-
      I recently had the opportunity (?) to test "erasable" watercolor
      pigments from the manufacturer: DUVA. These pigments are recycled inks
      from paper copiers and come in many colors as a liquid and also in a
      powdered form which can be mixed with a solvent type additive. They
      also make an item which is labeled "Sumi Ink", and it is not. It is the

      same black copier ink recycled. The results seem identical to the
      comments from the gentleman from Japan who contacted Jake Benson about a

      new marbling technique. (I don't think so!) The pigments created a soft

      "dot-like" pattern on water, any water, any temperature, whatever...!
      And very often have a mind of their own if you add a bit of DUVA's
      solvent to the pigments...they dance all over the place...quite
      fascinating to watch. However, they still end up as a dotted surface
      and break apart if one tries to manipulate them. (They do make
      interesting backgrounds.) The paper does not need an alum solution, but

      because these are powders, when dried on the paper- they must be heat
      set: iron lightly on the back and the ink will also set on whatever the
      paper
      is resting upon...not good. The manufacturer suggests: a heat
      gun...which then blows the pigment around and it smears...also, not good

      (maybe that's why they are called "erasable"!), or heat set in a low
      oven...which is worse! If you have used too much pigment, it will crack

      off in little chips when dry or become extremely glossy when heat set.
      I called the president of the company and sugeested that these should
      not be sold as pigments for marbling, but he really didn't know much at
      all about the technique of marbling, nor did he care! He said they are
      great for school children. I can't imagine a class full of young
      students gleefully breathing in copier inks and thinking they are
      marbling! I thought I would pass on this information in case any of you

      see this product on the market.
      Milena Hughes, USA
    • del&maryStubbs
      Joan, though I am strictly an amateur, and too busy hand building a house these last couple years to have spare time to marble much, perhaps this
      Message 2 of 11 , May 10, 2002
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        Joan, though I am strictly an amateur, and too busy hand building a
        house these last couple years to have spare time to marble much, perhaps
        this relates.....I have only used Boku Undo inks. I had wanted to
        create a type of stationary with a border of suminigashi....I did this
        by experimentig with various concentrations of dish soap in water, some
        quite thin ratios. And keeping brushes with these seperate. I would
        place two points at the same time a few inches apart in the center of
        the pattern and, by trial and error, push the pattern out to the edges.

        Since I have never even seen anyone else do suminigashi, I am a bit
        embarrassed to even speak on the subject, but perhaps that is what
        forums like this are for. Nothing has affected my insides like doing
        suminigashi. Powerful and gentle all at once. An honor to be able to
        even attempt it. I too am eager to learn about Suimonga and Majirozome.

        Here is an interview with a Chinese engineer and her view of Suminigashi
        and fluid mechanics!
        http://www.omnimag.com/archives/chats/bios/segami.html
        Suimonga mentioned...
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/message/879
        Del

        sixshort wrote:

        > Hi there, good to hear of someone on the list who specializes in
        > suminagashi. Could you please tell us what is involved in Suimonga
        > and Majirozome? I have not come across these terms before. Also, for
        > Suminagashi marbling, could you please tell me which paints or inks
        > should be used to achieve bright colours? I have been using only
        > Sakura marbling inks, very good but limited in colour. Also,I have
        > been trying to achieve voids for calligraphy but have not had much
        > success. Masking does not give me good results for calligraphy with
        > this style of marbling. Do you have any ideas or secrets about
        > calligraphic voids which you are willing to share with the group? I
        > understand that you may not be able to do this, and that is o.k. Best
        > regards, Joan Ajala
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        ADVERTISEMENT
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        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • tkuroda
        Hi All I will introduce inks for Suminagashi and Suimonga. I am using inks for calligraphy. There are many inks for calligraphy in Japan, within those ,I can
        Message 3 of 11 , May 11, 2002
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          Hi All
          I will introduce inks for Suminagashi and Suimonga. I am using inks for
          calligraphy. There are many inks for calligraphy in Japan, within those ,I
          can recommend to you to use "Sumi-no-hana","Reirou" or "Kasen" made by
          Kaimei Co, Ltd for black colour to get bright patterns. But I am not sure
          whether you can get it in your place or not.
          For blue, I am using pigment named "Kinbero" mixed with water and skin
          lotion by Jhonson-and-Jhonson Co,Ltd. For Red, I am using "Shyuboku" ink by
          Kaimei Co,Ltd.
          Please don't hesitate to ask me more about Suminagashi and Suimonga.
          *******************************
            Takaji KURODA
          tkuroda@...
          Tel & Fax X-81-(0)3-3368-1305
          3-21-12 Higashinakano, Nakano-Ku
          Tokyo 164-0003,JAPAN
          *******************************
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "del&maryStubbs" <mdstubbs@...>
          To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 10:45 PM
          Subject: [Marbling] Re:suminagashi


          > Joan, though I am strictly an amateur, and too busy hand building a
          > house these last couple years to have spare time to marble much, perhaps
          > this relates.....I have only used Boku Undo inks. I had wanted to
          > create a type of stationary with a border of suminigashi....I did this
          > by experimentig with various concentrations of dish soap in water, some
          > quite thin ratios. And keeping brushes with these seperate. I would
          > place two points at the same time a few inches apart in the center of
          > the pattern and, by trial and error, push the pattern out to the edges.
          >
          > Since I have never even seen anyone else do suminigashi, I am a bit
          > embarrassed to even speak on the subject, but perhaps that is what
          > forums like this are for. Nothing has affected my insides like doing
          > suminigashi. Powerful and gentle all at once. An honor to be able to
          > even attempt it. I too am eager to learn about Suimonga and Majirozome.
          >
          > Here is an interview with a Chinese engineer and her view of Suminigashi
          > and fluid mechanics!
          > http://www.omnimag.com/archives/chats/bios/segami.html
          > Suimonga mentioned...
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/message/879
          > Del
          >
          > sixshort wrote:
          >
          > > Hi there, good to hear of someone on the list who specializes in
          > > suminagashi. Could you please tell us what is involved in Suimonga
          > > and Majirozome? I have not come across these terms before. Also, for
          > > Suminagashi marbling, could you please tell me which paints or inks
          > > should be used to achieve bright colours? I have been using only
          > > Sakura marbling inks, very good but limited in colour. Also,I have
          > > been trying to achieve voids for calligraphy but have not had much
          > > success. Masking does not give me good results for calligraphy with
          > > this style of marbling. Do you have any ideas or secrets about
          > > calligraphic voids which you are willing to share with the group? I
          > > understand that you may not be able to do this, and that is o.k. Best
          > > regards, Joan Ajala
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > ADVERTISEMENT
          > [Click Here!]
          >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
        • tkuroda
          Hi all Majirozome is a new art style of marbling. It uses only colour powder to get marble pattern. By putting only one ear pick spoon of dye colour on to tap
          Message 4 of 11 , May 11, 2002
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            Hi all
            Majirozome is a new art style of marbling. It uses only colour powder to
            get marble pattern.
            By putting only one ear pick spoon of dye colour on to tap water surface of
            30x50 cm, you can get fine pattern. But it depend on nature of tap water.
            Tap water shoud be not included much metaric ions. Characeristics of water
            are different from place to place.
            Colour powders should melt instantly and float on the surface of water.
            Surface tensions of floated colour films should be almost same.
            Examples of colour powder are "Ropas A 14" for blue,"Ropas A 29" for black.
            *******************************
              Takaji KURODA
            tkuroda@...
            Tel & Fax X-81-(0)3-3368-1305
            3-21-12 Higashinakano, Nakano-Ku
            Tokyo 164-0003,JAPAN
            *******************************

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "del&maryStubbs" <mdstubbs@...>
            To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 10:45 PM
            Subject: [Marbling] Re:suminagashi


            > Joan, though I am strictly an amateur, and too busy hand building a
            > house these last couple years to have spare time to marble much, perhaps
            > this relates.....I have only used Boku Undo inks. I had wanted to
            > create a type of stationary with a border of suminigashi....I did this
            > by experimentig with various concentrations of dish soap in water, some
            > quite thin ratios. And keeping brushes with these seperate. I would
            > place two points at the same time a few inches apart in the center of
            > the pattern and, by trial and error, push the pattern out to the edges.
            >
            > Since I have never even seen anyone else do suminigashi, I am a bit
            > embarrassed to even speak on the subject, but perhaps that is what
            > forums like this are for. Nothing has affected my insides like doing
            > suminigashi. Powerful and gentle all at once. An honor to be able to
            > even attempt it. I too am eager to learn about Suimonga and Majirozome.
            >
            > Here is an interview with a Chinese engineer and her view of Suminigashi
            > and fluid mechanics!
            > http://www.omnimag.com/archives/chats/bios/segami.html
            > Suimonga mentioned...
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/message/879
            > Del
            >
            > sixshort wrote:
            >
            > > Hi there, good to hear of someone on the list who specializes in
            > > suminagashi. Could you please tell us what is involved in Suimonga
            > > and Majirozome? I have not come across these terms before. Also, for
            > > Suminagashi marbling, could you please tell me which paints or inks
            > > should be used to achieve bright colours? I have been using only
            > > Sakura marbling inks, very good but limited in colour. Also,I have
            > > been trying to achieve voids for calligraphy but have not had much
            > > success. Masking does not give me good results for calligraphy with
            > > this style of marbling. Do you have any ideas or secrets about
            > > calligraphic voids which you are willing to share with the group? I
            > > understand that you may not be able to do this, and that is o.k. Best
            > > regards, Joan Ajala
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            > [Click Here!]
            >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • sixshort
            -Hi Del and Mary, Thanks - yes, this forum is for everyone, no matter what their level. It has been a godsend for me, answering so many questions I didn t even
            Message 5 of 11 , May 11, 2002
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              -Hi Del and Mary, Thanks - yes, this forum is for everyone, no matter
              what their level. It has been a godsend for me, answering so many
              questions I didn't even know existed. The Boku Undo inks and Sakura
              inks are one and the same. I mix them, often adding black to get the
              colours I want, but on the whole they produce a pallette of limited
              brightness. I want to produce some vivid colours, as shown in the
              website you suggested, with vivid reds for example. Perhaps
              \acrylics would do the job. You can use oils, I know, but I want to
              keep away from them if possible because of their toxicity.
              As regards voids, I have used the technique you described, but find
              it leaves a fairly harsh and crowded edge. I want to create spaces
              which allow some of the lines to enter, creating natural organic
              areas on which to write. Perhaps Einen Miura's forthcoming book on
              backgrounds for Japanese calligraphy will explain all.
              You mentioned your use of suminagashi for stationery. Another use is
              to make a card from the marbled paper, add an insert and use it that
              way. Because of the interesting gaps between the lines, you can add
              wavy writing on the front in calligraphic form - Happy Birthday etc.
              etc. and if you do stamping or use punches, you can add an image and
              make a multi media card for stationery or other use. If I could draw
              I would make brush drawings with Indian ink. I have found these
              little cards very popular when sold in sets at craft markets.Happy
              suminagashi experimenting. Joan Ajala
            • david_2777
              Hi Joan, excuse my delayed response to your email. Its comforting to know that their are other people living not too far from myself and are open and willing
              Message 6 of 11 , May 11, 2002
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                Hi Joan, excuse my delayed response to your email. Its comforting to
                know that their are other people living not too far from myself and
                are open and willing to share their knowledge....so thank U. I
                phoned Vi and had good chat with her (lovely lady), and she invited
                me over at some stage to share some of her tips and techniques, so I
                may see you there. I have recently had a large stainless steel tray
                made up (110 x 68 cm), and have been experimenting marbling fabric,
                still using the pebeo marbling paints, and have had reasonable
                success. However the colours are a little washed out from over-
                spreading. I just purchased some Liquitex paints (medium viscosity),
                and have been having a few problems with the spread of the paint. I
                haven't added any surfactant (is that necessary for liquitex?) but
                I'm just diluting the paints with distilled water and have found the
                paints to spread with gaps which almost look like distorted air
                bubbles? HAs anyone else had this problem?

                If anyone on the list has any advice on the preparation for using
                liquitex paints, I would be most grateful. I have only used the
                kraftkolour carrageenan, so I don't know how other size mediums feel,
                but I have been combing patterns using it, but have found it to be
                difficult to control. And assumed this was due to my inexperience,
                but after reading your email on the Kraftkolour and speaking to Vi, I
                now realise that the grade of carrageenan plays a large part in the
                performance and handle of the size.

                Regards

                David
              • Laura Sims
                Dear David, Liquetex does make a fabric medium. The addition of the medium should help it spread. Best, Laura ...
                Message 7 of 11 , May 12, 2002
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                  Dear David,

                  Liquetex does make a fabric medium. The addition of
                  the medium should help it spread.

                  Best, Laura
                  --- david_2777 <david_2777@...> wrote:
                  > Hi Joan, excuse my delayed response to your email.
                  > Its comforting to
                  > know that their are other people living not too far
                  > from myself and
                  > are open and willing to share their knowledge....so
                  > thank U. I
                  > phoned Vi and had good chat with her (lovely lady),
                  > and she invited
                  > me over at some stage to share some of her tips and
                  > techniques, so I
                  > may see you there. I have recently had a large
                  > stainless steel tray
                  > made up (110 x 68 cm), and have been experimenting
                  > marbling fabric,
                  > still using the pebeo marbling paints, and have had
                  > reasonable
                  > success. However the colours are a little washed out
                  > from over-
                  > spreading. I just purchased some Liquitex paints
                  > (medium viscosity),
                  > and have been having a few problems with the spread
                  > of the paint. I
                  > haven't added any surfactant (is that necessary for
                  > liquitex?) but
                  > I'm just diluting the paints with distilled water
                  > and have found the
                  > paints to spread with gaps which almost look like
                  > distorted air
                  > bubbles? HAs anyone else had this problem?
                  >
                  > If anyone on the list has any advice on the
                  > preparation for using
                  > liquitex paints, I would be most grateful. I have
                  > only used the
                  > kraftkolour carrageenan, so I don't know how other
                  > size mediums feel,
                  > but I have been combing patterns using it, but have
                  > found it to be
                  > difficult to control. And assumed this was due to
                  > my inexperience,
                  > but after reading your email on the Kraftkolour and
                  > speaking to Vi, I
                  > now realise that the grade of carrageenan plays a
                  > large part in the
                  > performance and handle of the size.
                  >
                  > Regards
                  >
                  > David
                  >
                  >


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                • dkmaurer1@aol.com
                  Hi Again, I agree with Milena that Boku Undo colors work fine for suminagashi. I teach my students to adjust them with a single drop of Photo-Flo (Kodak
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 13, 2002
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                    Hi Again,

                    I agree with Milena that Boku Undo colors work fine for suminagashi. I teach
                    my students to adjust them with a single drop of Photo-Flo (Kodak Photo-Flo
                    400 available from a photo supply shop) to a teaspoon of color. They get
                    beautiful results. If colors are too pale it may be that you are dunking
                    your brushes below the surface of the water and allowing them to remain long
                    enough to draw water back into your brush. Then, when you dip your brush
                    back into your color you begin diluting the whole batch.

                    You can intensify colors by allowing more of the clear solution (one drop of
                    photo-flo to one teaspoon of water) to flow from your brush and propel it
                    into a larger ring thereby compressing the color applied before it. Keep a
                    paper towel handy to draw excess water out of your brush if you do this, to
                    avoid diluting the clear solution.

                    Diane Maurer
                    www.dianemaurer.com
                  • sixshort
                    -Hi Diane, Yes, I agree with you about the compression of Buko Undo inks, and also about removing excess water from the brushes, but the inks still do not give
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 13, 2002
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                      -Hi Diane, Yes, I agree with you about the compression of Buko Undo
                      inks, and also about removing excess water from the brushes, but the
                      inks still do not give me all the colour depth I want. I was
                      fortunate when in Japan a year ago that I was able to marble for a
                      short time with Tadao Fukuda. He grinds his own paints from pigments
                      he obtains from China. With one brush load of paint he can fill a
                      very large sheet of washi paper with the most brilliant colours -
                      magenta, viridian, deep black etc. He doesn't compress the colours
                      unduly, and can achieve quite wide bands of colour without losing
                      intensity. So the search goes on . . . regards, Joan Ajala--

                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • sixshort
                      -David - an addendum to my previous message. Do you tap your whisks or brushes against the sides of the paint bottles to remove the air bubbles? If not,
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 14, 2002
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                        -David - an addendum to my previous message. Do you tap your whisks
                        or brushes against the sides of the paint bottles to remove the air
                        bubbles? If not, bubbles of air might be attached to the drops of
                        paints, and as they hit the surface of the size they could be
                        breaking, making the "bubbles" of colour you describe. Joan Ajala--
                      • susanne martin
                        Hi Jake Benson, Are you out there? Please e-mail me offlist. Susanne Martin alavee15@hotmail.com
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 7, 2007
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                          Hi Jake Benson,
                          Are you out there? Please e-mail me offlist.

                          Susanne Martin
                          alavee15@...

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