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irregular skin on 1st color

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  • Enid Adams
    Greetings to all. I have just discovered your site and have looked over many of the 800+ entries. If you know of some that address my problem I d appreciate a
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 6, 2001
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      Greetings to all.
      I have just discovered your site and have looked over
      many of the 800+ entries. If you know of some that
      address my problem I'd appreciate a reference. It
      seems like it may very well be a temperature issue I'm
      having but I am eternally grateful if anyone can shed
      other light on the subject:

      Has anyone ever had the problem that the first color
      laid down creates an irregular edge when combed,like
      a skin has formed? (is this what Nell referred to as
      "islands"?) I am an experienced marbler but
      this has been a recurring problem from time to time
      and I can't isolate why it happens. I thought it
      might
      be chlorine in the water so I just bought and
      installed a filter. In the past I have added a drop
      per gallon of the chlorine eliminator for fish tanks,
      and/or let the tap water stand at least overnight. It
      used to happen with my well water too.

      Everything seems to work best at around 60 degrees on
      a humid day but surely other people don't have this
      problem outside those narrow parameters.(or do
      they?)If so, I suppose any other kind of weather is a
      good time to paste books or do something else. I have
      heard Gail Makenzie talk about barometric pressure
      having an effect but I'm not sure of details.

      I am skimming well before starting. I am also putting
      down "clear" ink first, which used to help, but even
      this is not working now.

      bath: methyl cellulose bath from Pro Chem, 3 1/2tbs
      per gal, dissolved with 1 tsp/2 gal ammonia and
      brought back to a ph of 6.5-7 with vinegar.
      colors: Pro Chem fabric marbling colors, but it has
      happened with other brands

      I tried cooling the bath with cooler packs which
      helped in the summer. This is driving me crazy
      because all my finely combed patterns have a
      distracting "lumpy" area of background color, only
      surrounding the first color laid. I've gotten very
      detailed near-perfect patterns with these same
      materials before.

      I'll try to enjoy being experimental for now, but
      would appreciate any insights for the problem. Today
      is the deadline I was up against, a studio tour.
      Wouldn't you know it, it is finally cool and rainy! I
      hope to be of help to some of you in the future and
      look forward to meeting you.

      Enid Adams enidadams@...
      Surface Design Studio
      The Plains, VA 20198
      540-253-5678 cell 540 270-1579





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    • irisnevins
      Hi Enid....I don t know what kind of paint base that is but if it is acrylic, if you spend too much time fussing over it, it has a tendency to form a skin in
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 6, 2001
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        Hi Enid....I don't know what kind of paint base that is but if it is
        acrylic, if you spend too much time fussing over it, it has a tendency to
        form a skin in spots. Also, is it better if you extra-skim the size?

        iris nevins
      • Enid Adams
        Hi Iris, Extra skimming does not seem to help this time. I usually put color down with droppers, and it can take a while. It is much more tedious to have to
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 7, 2001
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          Hi Iris,
          Extra skimming does not seem to help this time.
          I usually put color down with droppers, and it can
          take a while. It is much more tedious to have to use
          clear ink 1st but this was working to prevent the
          problem until recently. I have tried whisks in the
          past when this condition has happened, and still got a
          skin when combing.

          I am wondering if I need to replace the pins in my
          rakes and combs. Anyone have a source for very long
          brass ones that won't rust?

          Is it possible that colors that have been sitting
          around through a summer have gone bad, even if they
          don't seem spoiled? There was a lot of talk about
          cooling the bath, but do you ever refrigerate the
          colors?

          I'd like to try a new bath today. Has anyone
          experimented with the methyl cel/carrageenan mix?
          Thanks for your help!
          Enid

          --- irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:
          > Hi Enid....I don't know what kind of paint base that
          > is but if it is
          > acrylic, if you spend too much time fussing over it,
          > it has a tendency to
          > form a skin in spots. Also, is it better if you
          > extra-skim the size?
          >
          > iris nevins
          >
          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >
          >
          >
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          >
          >


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        • IrisNevins
          If the paints are acrylic based, I ll bet that s the problem.....taking too long to apply them to the size. Acrylic dries rapidly upon exposure to air. Perhaps
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 7, 2001
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            If the paints are acrylic based, I'll bet that's the problem.....taking too
            long to apply them to the size. Acrylic dries rapidly upon exposure to air.
            Perhaps thinning the colors out with some distilled water....and applying
            quickly with squeeze bottles (shake, don't squeeze) will do the trick.
            Apply a little extra color to get the same density. My acrylic and all
            others I have tried form skin if you wait too long....and it's a surprising
            SHORT time that this happens in.

            As for rusted pins, it can't hurt. thoug I must say my 23+ year old rusty
            rakes don't seem to bother anything. I am just too lazy to replace them.
            They were made with nails. The combs are extra long dressmaker pins.

            i.n.
          • sglenn@ctesc.net
            Hi, I marble on fabric using Golden Acrylics & methylcel. I recently experienced the same problem with the first color dropped that you are talking about (I
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 7, 2001
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              Hi,
              I marble on fabric using Golden Acrylics & methylcel. I recently
              experienced the same problem with the first color dropped that you
              are talking about (I think). I don't interpret this as a drying
              problem; rather, I believe that it is more a "compatibility" problem.
              The paint that is cracking along the outside edges of its rings
              before it is combed (the first one laid down)is a lot thicker than
              what it was laid onto (the initial clear one). I solved the problem
              by thinning my paints down more, just like Iris suggested. I think
              that all of the paints were too thick, but the cracking shows up only
              on the first & sometimes the second color laid down because they are
              compacted more than the paints that are laid down later and so the
              pigment is really stacked up on itself & loses its viscosity. Does
              this make sense?

              My favorite pins for comb making are "flower" pins or "daisy" pins
              found in the quilting department in the fabric department in Walmart.
              They are really long, they haven't rusted yet (been using this comb
              for 6 months), and they have a flat yellow plastic daisy shape on the
              end instead of a regular pin head that is perfect for hot gluing onto
              the board of your choice. You have to glue them on one pin at a time,
              but I think that it's worth it because they don't seem to rust. The
              comb is much easier to keep clean.

              Susa Glenn


              --- In Marbling@y..., Enid Adams <enidadams@y...> wrote:
              > Hi Iris,
              > Extra skimming does not seem to help this time.
              > I usually put color down with droppers, and it can
              > take a while. It is much more tedious to have to use
              > clear ink 1st but this was working to prevent the
              > problem until recently. I have tried whisks in the
              > past when this condition has happened, and still got a
              > skin when combing.
              >
              > I am wondering if I need to replace the pins in my
              > rakes and combs. Anyone have a source for very long
              > brass ones that won't rust?
              >
              > Is it possible that colors that have been sitting
              > around through a summer have gone bad, even if they
              > don't seem spoiled? There was a lot of talk about
              > cooling the bath, but do you ever refrigerate the
              > colors?
              >
              > I'd like to try a new bath today. Has anyone
              > experimented with the methyl cel/carrageenan mix?
              > Thanks for your help!
              > Enid
              >
              > --- irisnevins <irisnevins@c...> wrote:
              > > Hi Enid....I don't know what kind of paint base that
              > > is but if it is
              > > acrylic, if you spend too much time fussing over it,
              > > it has a tendency to
              > > form a skin in spots. Also, is it better if you
              > > extra-skim the size?
              > >
              > > iris nevins
              > >
              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just
              $8.95/month.
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            • Laura Sims
              Dear Enid, I ve been thinking about your problem. Madly getting ready for another show and haven t been on computer much. The irregular edges is what I refer
              Message 6 of 6 , Oct 8, 2001
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                Dear Enid,

                I've been thinking about your problem.  Madly getting ready for another show and haven't been on computer much.  The irregular edges is what I refer to as contamination which sometimes appears after I've marbled a while.  The clear, I assume your surfactant, can build up on the surface and create the described problem.  I know you said it helped fix the problem before, but you may want to try not using it or not using it first.  The MC from ProChem should be fine.  Did you by chance buy a new brand of ammonia. Make sure it does not have the word "sudsing" on it.  It's been years since I tried ProChem's marbling acrylics, but found them unsatisfactory because of pin holes and tendancy to streak.  However, their acrylics for fabric painting worked much better than their marbling paints. You may want to try a different acrylic.  Though I have not had a problem with chlorine (I use city water), the filter sounds like a good idea.

                When you skim you may want to try laying newspaper on the surface and lifting it straight up without dragging it over the edge.

                As far as temperature, humidity and air pressure, I have found acrylics to be very forgiving.  I have done my share of "exstreme" marbling in the cold and heat and have been able to get good results.  I would think that our climates are similar.

                I have just found a source for brass hat/lapel pins that are 5" and 6" long in a Rio Grande catalog.  If you buy 5-7 packages (12/pkg) they are $5.07 per pack...a bit expensize, but maybe helpful.  www.riogrande.com or 88-545-6566.

                Good Luck,

                Laura, Indigo Stone

                 

                >From: Enid Adams
                >Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                >To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [Marbling] irregular skin on 1st color
                >Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 06:01:56 -0700 (PDT)
                >
                >Hi Iris,
                >Extra skimming does not seem to help this time.
                >I usually put color down with droppers, and it can
                >take a while. It is much more tedious to have to use
                >clear ink 1st but this was working to prevent the
                >problem until recently. I have tried whisks in the
                >past when this condition has happened, and still got a
                >skin when combing.
                >
                >I am wondering if I need to replace the pins in my
                >rakes and combs. Anyone have a source for very long
                >brass ones that won't rust?
                >
                >Is it possible that colors that have been sitting
                >around through a summer have gone bad, even if they
                >don't seem spoiled? There was a lot of talk about
                >cooling the bath, but do you ever refrigerate the
                >colors?
                >
                >I'd like to try a new bath today. Has anyone
                >experimented with the methyl cel/carrageenan mix?
                >Thanks for your help!
                >Enid
                >
                >--- irisnevins wrote:
                > > Hi Enid....I don't know what kind of paint base that
                > > is but if it is
                > > acrylic, if you spend too much time fussing over it,
                > > it has a tendency to
                > > form a skin in spots. Also, is it better if you
                > > extra-skim the size?
                > >
                > > iris nevins
                > >
                > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >__________________________________________________
                >Do You Yahoo!?
                >NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
                >http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1


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