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[Marbling] Marbling in heat

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  • irisnevins
    Sonja.......sometimes it s best to toss everything (including the mixed paints) out and go relax or do something else you enjoy for the day. Start again all
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 25, 2001
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      Sonja.......sometimes it's best to toss everything (including the mixed
      paints) out and go relax or do something else you enjoy for the day. Start
      again all over in a day or two.....I kind of look at it like when one has a
      computer problem. Shut down.....reopen Windows (or whatever) and things for
      some reason work again.

      If the heat persists you may want to thicken the size slightly when you mix
      it again. A bookbinder generally will understand the problem and
      delay......tell him/her it's like gilding in hot humid weather. Marbling
      like it cold!

      Iris Nevins
    • Sonja Idema
      Thanks for the advice Iris! You are soooo right!! It sure feels like a waste but when it comes to quality, I would rather feel good about what I ve made than
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 25, 2001
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        Thanks for the advice Iris! You are soooo right!!
        It sure feels like a waste but when it comes to quality, I would rather feel
        good about what I've made than look at it an think "what a disaster"!!
        I think it's supposed to cool down by the end of the week. That should give me
        enough time to replenish my paper stock and re-mix paints.

        Sonja

        irisnevins wrote:

        > Sonja.......sometimes it's best to toss everything (including the mixed
        > paints) out and go relax or do something else you enjoy for the day. Start
        > again all over in a day or two.....I kind of look at it like when one has a
        > computer problem. Shut down.....reopen Windows (or whatever) and things for
        > some reason work again.
        >
        > If the heat persists you may want to thicken the size slightly when you mix
        > it again. A bookbinder generally will understand the problem and
        > delay......tell him/her it's like gilding in hot humid weather. Marbling
        > like it cold!
        >
        > Iris Nevins
      • sixshort@yahoo.com.au
        Hi Sonja. I hope some cooler weather has fixed your marbling woes. Regarding heat, I regularly marble in this hot and humid part of Australia (south of
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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          Hi Sonja. I hope some cooler weather has fixed your marbling woes.
          Regarding heat, I regularly marble in this hot and humid part of
          Australia (south of Brisbane and near Byron Bay) and have adapted my
          size for these conditions. For the past two years I have mixed
          guargum, and carrageenan in the ratio of 1:4. The guargum, a food
          thickener often used in nursing homes, is mixed in exactly the same
          way as carrageenan powder. I stir them together well, and then add
          preservative - one level teaspoon of washing soda dissolved in hot
          water, then cooled and added to 20 litres of size. As the guargum is
          quite sticky, it is sometimes necessary to add more water before
          marbling. The guargum also produces many tiny bubbles, but these are
          easily removed with a wooden skimmer - I squash the bubbles against
          the end of the trough. This has to be done only at the beginning -
          newspaper skimmers can be used as usual after the small bubbles have
          been removed. So far the guargum has not affected any of my
          watercolour marbling, and it allows me to work in hot weather (25 to
          35 degrees Celsius) for about five days before the size spoils -
          seven days in cool weather. I have even added 1.25 litres of the
          guargum size (which can be used immediately) to add viscosity to old
          size after seven days, and this helped me continue with combed
          patterns for another day. This may help in future when you are faced
          with a heatwave! Then again . . . everything is so "iffy" when it
          comes to marbling solutions. . . maybe it won't. . Good luck. Joan
          Ajala ,,In Marbling@y..., Sonja Idema <sdidema@i...> wrote:
          > I was doing some marbling today and found that heat does a lot
          of "nasty"
          > things!
          > I live in a fairly dry and cooler temperature zone (in Canada).
          Normally the
          > temperature for this time is about 18 degrees Celsius not a
          whooping 30 degrees
          > like today! (I think that's in the 80's in Farenheiht). My size
          felt pretty
          > "sluggish" to start off and then the colors just didn't work (I use
          carrageenan
          > and acrylic paints mixed with distilled water)...I needed to make
          at least 2
          > large sheets of a "same" pattern and colors and found that the two
          would turn
          > out totally different. The paints would either be very bold and
          vibrant with
          > one and then very "washed out" looking on the second one. The
          paints would
          > "react" different each time too. Using the paints in the same
          order as the
          > first time, they would either spread waaaayyy too much or almost
          not at all!
          > This was very distressing for me as I need to get an order out to a
          bookbinder
          > in Germany this week.
          > Does anyone have any suggestions on how to remedy this? Or should
          I just wait
          > for cooler weather? I haven't had this much trouble marbling in
          a "coon's age"!
          >
          > Thanks for any help!
          >
          > Sonja
        • Sonja Idema
          Hi Joan! Thanks for the suggestion regarding the guargum. Would you know where to look for something like that in Canada? Should I try some type of food
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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            Hi Joan!
            Thanks for the suggestion regarding the guargum. Would you know where to
            look for something like that in Canada? Should I try some type of food
            distributors? What would you suggest?
            I know I probably won't have to worry about the heat too long, but if I ever
            find I want to marble again on a hot day (like say, next summer) I think it
            would be worth a try!

            Thanks again for your help!
            Sonja

            sixshort@... wrote:

            > Hi Sonja. I hope some cooler weather has fixed your marbling woes.
            > Regarding heat, I regularly marble in this hot and humid part of
            > Australia (south of Brisbane and near Byron Bay) and have adapted my
            > size for these conditions. For the past two years I have mixed
            > guargum, and carrageenan in the ratio of 1:4. The guargum, a food
            > thickener often used in nursing homes, is mixed in exactly the same
            > way as carrageenan powder. I stir them together well, and then add
            > preservative - one level teaspoon of washing soda dissolved in hot
            > water, then cooled and added to 20 litres of size. As the guargum is
            > quite sticky, it is sometimes necessary to add more water before
            > marbling. The guargum also produces many tiny bubbles, but these are
            > easily removed with a wooden skimmer - I squash the bubbles against
            > the end of the trough. This has to be done only at the beginning -
            > newspaper skimmers can be used as usual after the small bubbles have
            > been removed. So far the guargum has not affected any of my
            > watercolour marbling, and it allows me to work in hot weather (25 to
            > 35 degrees Celsius) for about five days before the size spoils -
            > seven days in cool weather. I have even added 1.25 litres of the
            > guargum size (which can be used immediately) to add viscosity to old
            > size after seven days, and this helped me continue with combed
            > patterns for another day. This may help in future when you are faced
            > with a heatwave! Then again . . . everything is so "iffy" when it
            > comes to marbling solutions. . . maybe it won't. . Good luck. Joan
            > Ajala
          • J Dolphin
            Here in Canada, at least in Ontario, I think the equivalent food thickener should be available at a big chain pharmacy. Oetker produces an agent called
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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              Here in Canada, at least in Ontario, I think the equivalent food thickener
              should be available at a big chain pharmacy. Oetker produces an agent called
              'Ultra-Thick'. The ingredient is modified corn starch.
              Jill
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Sonja Idema" <sdidema@...>
              To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 11:02 AM
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Marbling in heat


              > Hi Joan!
              > Thanks for the suggestion regarding the guargum. Would you know where to
              > look for something like that in Canada? Should I try some type of food
              > distributors? What would you suggest?
              > I know I probably won't have to worry about the heat too long, but if I
              ever
              > find I want to marble again on a hot day (like say, next summer) I think
              it
              > would be worth a try!
              >
              > Thanks again for your help!
              > Sonja
              >
              > sixshort@... wrote:
              >
              > > Hi Sonja. I hope some cooler weather has fixed your marbling woes.
              > > Regarding heat, I regularly marble in this hot and humid part of
              > > Australia (south of Brisbane and near Byron Bay) and have adapted my
              > > size for these conditions. For the past two years I have mixed
              > > guargum, and carrageenan in the ratio of 1:4. The guargum, a food
              > > thickener often used in nursing homes, is mixed in exactly the same
              > > way as carrageenan powder. I stir them together well, and then add
              > > preservative - one level teaspoon of washing soda dissolved in hot
              > > water, then cooled and added to 20 litres of size. As the guargum is
              > > quite sticky, it is sometimes necessary to add more water before
              > > marbling. The guargum also produces many tiny bubbles, but these are
              > > easily removed with a wooden skimmer - I squash the bubbles against
              > > the end of the trough. This has to be done only at the beginning -
              > > newspaper skimmers can be used as usual after the small bubbles have
              > > been removed. So far the guargum has not affected any of my
              > > watercolour marbling, and it allows me to work in hot weather (25 to
              > > 35 degrees Celsius) for about five days before the size spoils -
              > > seven days in cool weather. I have even added 1.25 litres of the
              > > guargum size (which can be used immediately) to add viscosity to old
              > > size after seven days, and this helped me continue with combed
              > > patterns for another day. This may help in future when you are faced
              > > with a heatwave! Then again . . . everything is so "iffy" when it
              > > comes to marbling solutions. . . maybe it won't. . Good luck. Joan
              > > Ajala
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • J Dolphin
              I have tried the Ultra-Thick twice. I was not successful in getting it to be uniform in consistency. I tried acrylics and water colour paint and gouache. The
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                I have tried the 'Ultra-Thick' twice. I was not successful in getting it to
                be uniform in consistency. I tried acrylics and water colour paint and
                gouache. The results were very weak pale distribution of colour. Maybe I
                ought to try it again, though, and see what happens next.
                Jill
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...>
                To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:50 PM
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Marbling in heat


                > How does all this stuff compare to the clean fine lines one can get with
                > carrageenan? Sometimes I wonder.....never found anything better or more
                > satisfactory for the marbling process. Chris Weimann was doing a nice mix
                > of methyl-cel and carrageenan before he left us, he said was still working
                > on perfecting it, but never got to finish. I know it lasted longer for him
                > than straight carrageenan if that is the problem.....I mean the shelf life
                > of it once it's mixed seems to be the main concern of marblers other than
                > availability. Chris was working rpimarily with acrylics with this size
                > mixture he told me. Don't know how it reacts with watercolors.
                >
                > Just can't imagine a cornstarch base would work well. Has anyone tried it?
                >
                > Iris Nevins
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • irisnevins
                How does all this stuff compare to the clean fine lines one can get with carrageenan? Sometimes I wonder.....never found anything better or more satisfactory
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                  How does all this stuff compare to the clean fine lines one can get with
                  carrageenan? Sometimes I wonder.....never found anything better or more
                  satisfactory for the marbling process. Chris Weimann was doing a nice mix
                  of methyl-cel and carrageenan before he left us, he said was still working
                  on perfecting it, but never got to finish. I know it lasted longer for him
                  than straight carrageenan if that is the problem.....I mean the shelf life
                  of it once it's mixed seems to be the main concern of marblers other than
                  availability. Chris was working rpimarily with acrylics with this size
                  mixture he told me. Don't know how it reacts with watercolors.

                  Just can't imagine a cornstarch base would work well. Has anyone tried it?

                  Iris Nevins
                • oguzhan tugrul
                  Dear Iris, You are lucky to have known Chris Weimann. Why don t we ask dear Ingrid Weimann who is a prime witness? If you want her e-mail address let me
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                    Dear Iris,
                    You are lucky to have known Chris Weimann.
                    Why don't we ask dear Ingrid Weimann who is a prime witness?
                    If you want her e-mail address let me know.Oz,at ARTISTANBUL
                    Post Scriptum :Marblers from the orient use tarraganth,is it easily
                    available over there?
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...>
                    To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 1:50 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Marbling in heat


                    > How does all this stuff compare to the clean fine lines one can get with
                    > carrageenan? Sometimes I wonder.....never found anything better or more
                    > satisfactory for the marbling process. Chris Weimann was doing a nice mix
                    > of methyl-cel and carrageenan before he left us, he said was still working
                    > on perfecting it, but never got to finish. I know it lasted longer for him
                    > than straight carrageenan if that is the problem.....I mean the shelf life
                    > of it once it's mixed seems to be the main concern of marblers other than
                    > availability. Chris was working rpimarily with acrylics with this size
                    > mixture he told me. Don't know how it reacts with watercolors.
                    >
                    > Just can't imagine a cornstarch base would work well. Has anyone tried it?
                    >
                    > Iris Nevins
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • sixshort@yahoo.com.au
                    Sonja - guargum is available at all chemists in Australia, also at health stores - there should be no problem in obtaining it - even your friendly local
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                      Sonja - guargum is available at all chemists in Australia, also at
                      health stores - there should be no problem in obtaining it - even
                      your friendly local nursing home could probably give you some to
                      try. It's worth having it on hand, if only to add viscosity to
                      wandering size if you absolutely must comb the patterns. good luck
                      again with this - it's always fun to experiment and get new results
                      in any case. . Joan --- In Marbling@y..., Sonja Idema
                      <sdidema@i...> wrote:
                      > Hi Joan!
                      > Thanks for the suggestion regarding the guargum. Would you know
                      where to
                      > look for something like that in Canada? Should I try some type of
                      food
                      > distributors? What would you suggest?
                      > I know I probably won't have to worry about the heat too long, but
                      if I ever
                      > find I want to marble again on a hot day (like say, next summer) I
                      think it
                      > would be worth a try!
                      >
                      > Thanks again for your help!
                      > Sonja
                      >
                      > sixshort@y... wrote:
                      >
                      > > Hi Sonja. I hope some cooler weather has fixed your marbling woes.
                      > > Regarding heat, I regularly marble in this hot and humid part of
                      > > Australia (south of Brisbane and near Byron Bay) and have adapted
                      my
                      > > size for these conditions. For the past two years I have mixed
                      > > guargum, and carrageenan in the ratio of 1:4. The guargum, a food
                      > > thickener often used in nursing homes, is mixed in exactly the
                      same
                      > > way as carrageenan powder. I stir them together well, and then
                      add
                      > > preservative - one level teaspoon of washing soda dissolved in hot
                      > > water, then cooled and added to 20 litres of size. As the
                      guargum is
                      > > quite sticky, it is sometimes necessary to add more water before
                      > > marbling. The guargum also produces many tiny bubbles, but these
                      are
                      > > easily removed with a wooden skimmer - I squash the bubbles
                      against
                      > > the end of the trough. This has to be done only at the
                      beginning -
                      > > newspaper skimmers can be used as usual after the small bubbles
                      have
                      > > been removed. So far the guargum has not affected any of my
                      > > watercolour marbling, and it allows me to work in hot weather (25
                      to
                      > > 35 degrees Celsius) for about five days before the size spoils -
                      > > seven days in cool weather. I have even added 1.25 litres of the
                      > > guargum size (which can be used immediately) to add viscosity to
                      old
                      > > size after seven days, and this helped me continue with combed
                      > > patterns for another day. This may help in future when you are
                      faced
                      > > with a heatwave! Then again . . . everything is so "iffy" when it
                      > > comes to marbling solutions. . . maybe it won't. . Good luck.
                      Joan
                      > > Ajala
                    • sixshort@yahoo.com.au
                      Hi all interested in marbling in hot weather - The added guargaum at the rate of 1:4 works just fine and allows for the finest lines in combing watercolour
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                        Hi all interested in marbling in hot weather - The added guargaum at
                        the rate of 1:4 works just fine and allows for the finest lines in
                        combing watercolour paints. Margo Snape tells me it comes from an
                        Indian plant - haven't researched this myself yet. A higher ratio of
                        guargum makes the size too viscous for me - more like the feel of
                        methyl cellulose, and difficult to wash off.
                        ornstarch - mm - haven't had good results making up ordinary
                        cornstarch used to starch clothes - was unable to get any fine lines
                        at all. I have often wondered whether there is an Australian plant -
                        seaweed - that has the properties of carrageenan - so much here is
                        still unexplored in various fields . . . . this such an
                        interesting message bank - I have learned heaps through it . . thanks
                        everyone . . . Joan --- In Marbling@y..., "J Dolphin" <jdolphin@s...>
                        wrote:
                        > I have tried the 'Ultra-Thick' twice. I was not successful in
                        getting it to
                        > be uniform in consistency. I tried acrylics and water colour paint
                        and
                        > gouache. The results were very weak pale distribution of colour.
                        Maybe I
                        > ought to try it again, though, and see what happens next.
                        > Jill
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@c...>
                        > To: <Marbling@y...>
                        > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:50 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Marbling in heat
                        >
                        >
                        > > How does all this stuff compare to the clean fine lines one can
                        get with
                        > > carrageenan? Sometimes I wonder.....never found anything better
                        or more
                        > > satisfactory for the marbling process. Chris Weimann was doing a
                        nice mix
                        > > of methyl-cel and carrageenan before he left us, he said was
                        still working
                        > > on perfecting it, but never got to finish. I know it lasted
                        longer for him
                        > > than straight carrageenan if that is the problem.....I mean the
                        shelf life
                        > > of it once it's mixed seems to be the main concern of marblers
                        other than
                        > > availability. Chris was working rpimarily with acrylics with this
                        size
                        > > mixture he told me. Don't know how it reacts with watercolors.
                        > >
                        > > Just can't imagine a cornstarch base would work well. Has anyone
                        tried it?
                        > >
                        > > Iris Nevins
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > >
                        > >
                      • Sonja Idema
                        We also carry a seaweed based size up in Canada called Sodium Alginate. It s in a powder form which you blend together with water to make the size. I started
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                          We also carry a seaweed based size up in Canada called Sodium Alginate. It's
                          in a powder form which you blend together with water to make the size. I
                          started marbling with this size originally and found it to be much more
                          viscous and thick than the carrageenan. I do agree that the carrageenan
                          gives a much more clean look but I may try the sodium alginate again this
                          weekend to see if it makes a difference in warm weather...has anyone else
                          tried this product and what do you think of it? I liked it BEFORE I
                          discovered the carrageenan...but I still do use it on occasion.

                          Sonja

                          sixshort@... wrote:

                          > Hi all interested in marbling in hot weather - The added guargaum at
                          > the rate of 1:4 works just fine and allows for the finest lines in
                          > combing watercolour paints. Margo Snape tells me it comes from an
                          > Indian plant - haven't researched this myself yet. A higher ratio of
                          > guargum makes the size too viscous for me - more like the feel of
                          > methyl cellulose, and difficult to wash off.
                          > ornstarch - mm - haven't had good results making up ordinary
                          > cornstarch used to starch clothes - was unable to get any fine lines
                          > at all. I have often wondered whether there is an Australian plant -
                          > seaweed - that has the properties of carrageenan - so much here is
                          > still unexplored in various fields . . . . this such an
                          > interesting message bank - I have learned heaps through it . . thanks
                          > everyone . . . Joan --- In Marbling@y..., "J Dolphin" <jdolphin@s...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > I have tried the 'Ultra-Thick' twice. I was not successful in
                          > getting it to
                          > > be uniform in consistency. I tried acrylics and water colour paint
                          > and
                          > > gouache. The results were very weak pale distribution of colour.
                          > Maybe I
                          > > ought to try it again, though, and see what happens next.
                          > > Jill
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