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Marbling in heat

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  • Sonja Idema
    I was doing some marbling today and found that heat does a lot of nasty things! I live in a fairly dry and cooler temperature zone (in Canada). Normally the
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 24, 2001
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      I was doing some marbling today and found that heat does a lot of "nasty"
      things!
      I live in a fairly dry and cooler temperature zone (in Canada). Normally the
      temperature for this time is about 18 degrees Celsius not a whooping 30 degrees
      like today! (I think that's in the 80's in Farenheiht). My size felt pretty
      "sluggish" to start off and then the colors just didn't work (I use carrageenan
      and acrylic paints mixed with distilled water)...I needed to make at least 2
      large sheets of a "same" pattern and colors and found that the two would turn
      out totally different. The paints would either be very bold and vibrant with
      one and then very "washed out" looking on the second one. The paints would
      "react" different each time too. Using the paints in the same order as the
      first time, they would either spread waaaayyy too much or almost not at all!
      This was very distressing for me as I need to get an order out to a bookbinder
      in Germany this week.
      Does anyone have any suggestions on how to remedy this? Or should I just wait
      for cooler weather? I haven't had this much trouble marbling in a "coon's age"!

      Thanks for any help!

      Sonja
    • irisnevins
      Sonja.......sometimes it s best to toss everything (including the mixed paints) out and go relax or do something else you enjoy for the day. Start again all
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 25, 2001
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        Sonja.......sometimes it's best to toss everything (including the mixed
        paints) out and go relax or do something else you enjoy for the day. Start
        again all over in a day or two.....I kind of look at it like when one has a
        computer problem. Shut down.....reopen Windows (or whatever) and things for
        some reason work again.

        If the heat persists you may want to thicken the size slightly when you mix
        it again. A bookbinder generally will understand the problem and
        delay......tell him/her it's like gilding in hot humid weather. Marbling
        like it cold!

        Iris Nevins
      • Sonja Idema
        Thanks for the advice Iris! You are soooo right!! It sure feels like a waste but when it comes to quality, I would rather feel good about what I ve made than
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 25, 2001
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          Thanks for the advice Iris! You are soooo right!!
          It sure feels like a waste but when it comes to quality, I would rather feel
          good about what I've made than look at it an think "what a disaster"!!
          I think it's supposed to cool down by the end of the week. That should give me
          enough time to replenish my paper stock and re-mix paints.

          Sonja

          irisnevins wrote:

          > Sonja.......sometimes it's best to toss everything (including the mixed
          > paints) out and go relax or do something else you enjoy for the day. Start
          > again all over in a day or two.....I kind of look at it like when one has a
          > computer problem. Shut down.....reopen Windows (or whatever) and things for
          > some reason work again.
          >
          > If the heat persists you may want to thicken the size slightly when you mix
          > it again. A bookbinder generally will understand the problem and
          > delay......tell him/her it's like gilding in hot humid weather. Marbling
          > like it cold!
          >
          > Iris Nevins
        • sixshort@yahoo.com.au
          Hi Sonja. I hope some cooler weather has fixed your marbling woes. Regarding heat, I regularly marble in this hot and humid part of Australia (south of
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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            Hi Sonja. I hope some cooler weather has fixed your marbling woes.
            Regarding heat, I regularly marble in this hot and humid part of
            Australia (south of Brisbane and near Byron Bay) and have adapted my
            size for these conditions. For the past two years I have mixed
            guargum, and carrageenan in the ratio of 1:4. The guargum, a food
            thickener often used in nursing homes, is mixed in exactly the same
            way as carrageenan powder. I stir them together well, and then add
            preservative - one level teaspoon of washing soda dissolved in hot
            water, then cooled and added to 20 litres of size. As the guargum is
            quite sticky, it is sometimes necessary to add more water before
            marbling. The guargum also produces many tiny bubbles, but these are
            easily removed with a wooden skimmer - I squash the bubbles against
            the end of the trough. This has to be done only at the beginning -
            newspaper skimmers can be used as usual after the small bubbles have
            been removed. So far the guargum has not affected any of my
            watercolour marbling, and it allows me to work in hot weather (25 to
            35 degrees Celsius) for about five days before the size spoils -
            seven days in cool weather. I have even added 1.25 litres of the
            guargum size (which can be used immediately) to add viscosity to old
            size after seven days, and this helped me continue with combed
            patterns for another day. This may help in future when you are faced
            with a heatwave! Then again . . . everything is so "iffy" when it
            comes to marbling solutions. . . maybe it won't. . Good luck. Joan
            Ajala ,,In Marbling@y..., Sonja Idema <sdidema@i...> wrote:
            > I was doing some marbling today and found that heat does a lot
            of "nasty"
            > things!
            > I live in a fairly dry and cooler temperature zone (in Canada).
            Normally the
            > temperature for this time is about 18 degrees Celsius not a
            whooping 30 degrees
            > like today! (I think that's in the 80's in Farenheiht). My size
            felt pretty
            > "sluggish" to start off and then the colors just didn't work (I use
            carrageenan
            > and acrylic paints mixed with distilled water)...I needed to make
            at least 2
            > large sheets of a "same" pattern and colors and found that the two
            would turn
            > out totally different. The paints would either be very bold and
            vibrant with
            > one and then very "washed out" looking on the second one. The
            paints would
            > "react" different each time too. Using the paints in the same
            order as the
            > first time, they would either spread waaaayyy too much or almost
            not at all!
            > This was very distressing for me as I need to get an order out to a
            bookbinder
            > in Germany this week.
            > Does anyone have any suggestions on how to remedy this? Or should
            I just wait
            > for cooler weather? I haven't had this much trouble marbling in
            a "coon's age"!
            >
            > Thanks for any help!
            >
            > Sonja
          • Sonja Idema
            Hi Joan! Thanks for the suggestion regarding the guargum. Would you know where to look for something like that in Canada? Should I try some type of food
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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              Hi Joan!
              Thanks for the suggestion regarding the guargum. Would you know where to
              look for something like that in Canada? Should I try some type of food
              distributors? What would you suggest?
              I know I probably won't have to worry about the heat too long, but if I ever
              find I want to marble again on a hot day (like say, next summer) I think it
              would be worth a try!

              Thanks again for your help!
              Sonja

              sixshort@... wrote:

              > Hi Sonja. I hope some cooler weather has fixed your marbling woes.
              > Regarding heat, I regularly marble in this hot and humid part of
              > Australia (south of Brisbane and near Byron Bay) and have adapted my
              > size for these conditions. For the past two years I have mixed
              > guargum, and carrageenan in the ratio of 1:4. The guargum, a food
              > thickener often used in nursing homes, is mixed in exactly the same
              > way as carrageenan powder. I stir them together well, and then add
              > preservative - one level teaspoon of washing soda dissolved in hot
              > water, then cooled and added to 20 litres of size. As the guargum is
              > quite sticky, it is sometimes necessary to add more water before
              > marbling. The guargum also produces many tiny bubbles, but these are
              > easily removed with a wooden skimmer - I squash the bubbles against
              > the end of the trough. This has to be done only at the beginning -
              > newspaper skimmers can be used as usual after the small bubbles have
              > been removed. So far the guargum has not affected any of my
              > watercolour marbling, and it allows me to work in hot weather (25 to
              > 35 degrees Celsius) for about five days before the size spoils -
              > seven days in cool weather. I have even added 1.25 litres of the
              > guargum size (which can be used immediately) to add viscosity to old
              > size after seven days, and this helped me continue with combed
              > patterns for another day. This may help in future when you are faced
              > with a heatwave! Then again . . . everything is so "iffy" when it
              > comes to marbling solutions. . . maybe it won't. . Good luck. Joan
              > Ajala
            • J Dolphin
              Here in Canada, at least in Ontario, I think the equivalent food thickener should be available at a big chain pharmacy. Oetker produces an agent called
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                Here in Canada, at least in Ontario, I think the equivalent food thickener
                should be available at a big chain pharmacy. Oetker produces an agent called
                'Ultra-Thick'. The ingredient is modified corn starch.
                Jill
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Sonja Idema" <sdidema@...>
                To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 11:02 AM
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Marbling in heat


                > Hi Joan!
                > Thanks for the suggestion regarding the guargum. Would you know where to
                > look for something like that in Canada? Should I try some type of food
                > distributors? What would you suggest?
                > I know I probably won't have to worry about the heat too long, but if I
                ever
                > find I want to marble again on a hot day (like say, next summer) I think
                it
                > would be worth a try!
                >
                > Thanks again for your help!
                > Sonja
                >
                > sixshort@... wrote:
                >
                > > Hi Sonja. I hope some cooler weather has fixed your marbling woes.
                > > Regarding heat, I regularly marble in this hot and humid part of
                > > Australia (south of Brisbane and near Byron Bay) and have adapted my
                > > size for these conditions. For the past two years I have mixed
                > > guargum, and carrageenan in the ratio of 1:4. The guargum, a food
                > > thickener often used in nursing homes, is mixed in exactly the same
                > > way as carrageenan powder. I stir them together well, and then add
                > > preservative - one level teaspoon of washing soda dissolved in hot
                > > water, then cooled and added to 20 litres of size. As the guargum is
                > > quite sticky, it is sometimes necessary to add more water before
                > > marbling. The guargum also produces many tiny bubbles, but these are
                > > easily removed with a wooden skimmer - I squash the bubbles against
                > > the end of the trough. This has to be done only at the beginning -
                > > newspaper skimmers can be used as usual after the small bubbles have
                > > been removed. So far the guargum has not affected any of my
                > > watercolour marbling, and it allows me to work in hot weather (25 to
                > > 35 degrees Celsius) for about five days before the size spoils -
                > > seven days in cool weather. I have even added 1.25 litres of the
                > > guargum size (which can be used immediately) to add viscosity to old
                > > size after seven days, and this helped me continue with combed
                > > patterns for another day. This may help in future when you are faced
                > > with a heatwave! Then again . . . everything is so "iffy" when it
                > > comes to marbling solutions. . . maybe it won't. . Good luck. Joan
                > > Ajala
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • J Dolphin
                I have tried the Ultra-Thick twice. I was not successful in getting it to be uniform in consistency. I tried acrylics and water colour paint and gouache. The
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                  I have tried the 'Ultra-Thick' twice. I was not successful in getting it to
                  be uniform in consistency. I tried acrylics and water colour paint and
                  gouache. The results were very weak pale distribution of colour. Maybe I
                  ought to try it again, though, and see what happens next.
                  Jill
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...>
                  To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:50 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Marbling in heat


                  > How does all this stuff compare to the clean fine lines one can get with
                  > carrageenan? Sometimes I wonder.....never found anything better or more
                  > satisfactory for the marbling process. Chris Weimann was doing a nice mix
                  > of methyl-cel and carrageenan before he left us, he said was still working
                  > on perfecting it, but never got to finish. I know it lasted longer for him
                  > than straight carrageenan if that is the problem.....I mean the shelf life
                  > of it once it's mixed seems to be the main concern of marblers other than
                  > availability. Chris was working rpimarily with acrylics with this size
                  > mixture he told me. Don't know how it reacts with watercolors.
                  >
                  > Just can't imagine a cornstarch base would work well. Has anyone tried it?
                  >
                  > Iris Nevins
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • irisnevins
                  How does all this stuff compare to the clean fine lines one can get with carrageenan? Sometimes I wonder.....never found anything better or more satisfactory
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                    How does all this stuff compare to the clean fine lines one can get with
                    carrageenan? Sometimes I wonder.....never found anything better or more
                    satisfactory for the marbling process. Chris Weimann was doing a nice mix
                    of methyl-cel and carrageenan before he left us, he said was still working
                    on perfecting it, but never got to finish. I know it lasted longer for him
                    than straight carrageenan if that is the problem.....I mean the shelf life
                    of it once it's mixed seems to be the main concern of marblers other than
                    availability. Chris was working rpimarily with acrylics with this size
                    mixture he told me. Don't know how it reacts with watercolors.

                    Just can't imagine a cornstarch base would work well. Has anyone tried it?

                    Iris Nevins
                  • oguzhan tugrul
                    Dear Iris, You are lucky to have known Chris Weimann. Why don t we ask dear Ingrid Weimann who is a prime witness? If you want her e-mail address let me
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                      Dear Iris,
                      You are lucky to have known Chris Weimann.
                      Why don't we ask dear Ingrid Weimann who is a prime witness?
                      If you want her e-mail address let me know.Oz,at ARTISTANBUL
                      Post Scriptum :Marblers from the orient use tarraganth,is it easily
                      available over there?
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...>
                      To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 1:50 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Marbling in heat


                      > How does all this stuff compare to the clean fine lines one can get with
                      > carrageenan? Sometimes I wonder.....never found anything better or more
                      > satisfactory for the marbling process. Chris Weimann was doing a nice mix
                      > of methyl-cel and carrageenan before he left us, he said was still working
                      > on perfecting it, but never got to finish. I know it lasted longer for him
                      > than straight carrageenan if that is the problem.....I mean the shelf life
                      > of it once it's mixed seems to be the main concern of marblers other than
                      > availability. Chris was working rpimarily with acrylics with this size
                      > mixture he told me. Don't know how it reacts with watercolors.
                      >
                      > Just can't imagine a cornstarch base would work well. Has anyone tried it?
                      >
                      > Iris Nevins
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • sixshort@yahoo.com.au
                      Sonja - guargum is available at all chemists in Australia, also at health stores - there should be no problem in obtaining it - even your friendly local
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                        Sonja - guargum is available at all chemists in Australia, also at
                        health stores - there should be no problem in obtaining it - even
                        your friendly local nursing home could probably give you some to
                        try. It's worth having it on hand, if only to add viscosity to
                        wandering size if you absolutely must comb the patterns. good luck
                        again with this - it's always fun to experiment and get new results
                        in any case. . Joan --- In Marbling@y..., Sonja Idema
                        <sdidema@i...> wrote:
                        > Hi Joan!
                        > Thanks for the suggestion regarding the guargum. Would you know
                        where to
                        > look for something like that in Canada? Should I try some type of
                        food
                        > distributors? What would you suggest?
                        > I know I probably won't have to worry about the heat too long, but
                        if I ever
                        > find I want to marble again on a hot day (like say, next summer) I
                        think it
                        > would be worth a try!
                        >
                        > Thanks again for your help!
                        > Sonja
                        >
                        > sixshort@y... wrote:
                        >
                        > > Hi Sonja. I hope some cooler weather has fixed your marbling woes.
                        > > Regarding heat, I regularly marble in this hot and humid part of
                        > > Australia (south of Brisbane and near Byron Bay) and have adapted
                        my
                        > > size for these conditions. For the past two years I have mixed
                        > > guargum, and carrageenan in the ratio of 1:4. The guargum, a food
                        > > thickener often used in nursing homes, is mixed in exactly the
                        same
                        > > way as carrageenan powder. I stir them together well, and then
                        add
                        > > preservative - one level teaspoon of washing soda dissolved in hot
                        > > water, then cooled and added to 20 litres of size. As the
                        guargum is
                        > > quite sticky, it is sometimes necessary to add more water before
                        > > marbling. The guargum also produces many tiny bubbles, but these
                        are
                        > > easily removed with a wooden skimmer - I squash the bubbles
                        against
                        > > the end of the trough. This has to be done only at the
                        beginning -
                        > > newspaper skimmers can be used as usual after the small bubbles
                        have
                        > > been removed. So far the guargum has not affected any of my
                        > > watercolour marbling, and it allows me to work in hot weather (25
                        to
                        > > 35 degrees Celsius) for about five days before the size spoils -
                        > > seven days in cool weather. I have even added 1.25 litres of the
                        > > guargum size (which can be used immediately) to add viscosity to
                        old
                        > > size after seven days, and this helped me continue with combed
                        > > patterns for another day. This may help in future when you are
                        faced
                        > > with a heatwave! Then again . . . everything is so "iffy" when it
                        > > comes to marbling solutions. . . maybe it won't. . Good luck.
                        Joan
                        > > Ajala
                      • sixshort@yahoo.com.au
                        Hi all interested in marbling in hot weather - The added guargaum at the rate of 1:4 works just fine and allows for the finest lines in combing watercolour
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                          Hi all interested in marbling in hot weather - The added guargaum at
                          the rate of 1:4 works just fine and allows for the finest lines in
                          combing watercolour paints. Margo Snape tells me it comes from an
                          Indian plant - haven't researched this myself yet. A higher ratio of
                          guargum makes the size too viscous for me - more like the feel of
                          methyl cellulose, and difficult to wash off.
                          ornstarch - mm - haven't had good results making up ordinary
                          cornstarch used to starch clothes - was unable to get any fine lines
                          at all. I have often wondered whether there is an Australian plant -
                          seaweed - that has the properties of carrageenan - so much here is
                          still unexplored in various fields . . . . this such an
                          interesting message bank - I have learned heaps through it . . thanks
                          everyone . . . Joan --- In Marbling@y..., "J Dolphin" <jdolphin@s...>
                          wrote:
                          > I have tried the 'Ultra-Thick' twice. I was not successful in
                          getting it to
                          > be uniform in consistency. I tried acrylics and water colour paint
                          and
                          > gouache. The results were very weak pale distribution of colour.
                          Maybe I
                          > ought to try it again, though, and see what happens next.
                          > Jill
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@c...>
                          > To: <Marbling@y...>
                          > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:50 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Marbling in heat
                          >
                          >
                          > > How does all this stuff compare to the clean fine lines one can
                          get with
                          > > carrageenan? Sometimes I wonder.....never found anything better
                          or more
                          > > satisfactory for the marbling process. Chris Weimann was doing a
                          nice mix
                          > > of methyl-cel and carrageenan before he left us, he said was
                          still working
                          > > on perfecting it, but never got to finish. I know it lasted
                          longer for him
                          > > than straight carrageenan if that is the problem.....I mean the
                          shelf life
                          > > of it once it's mixed seems to be the main concern of marblers
                          other than
                          > > availability. Chris was working rpimarily with acrylics with this
                          size
                          > > mixture he told me. Don't know how it reacts with watercolors.
                          > >
                          > > Just can't imagine a cornstarch base would work well. Has anyone
                          tried it?
                          > >
                          > > Iris Nevins
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > >
                          > >
                        • Sonja Idema
                          We also carry a seaweed based size up in Canada called Sodium Alginate. It s in a powder form which you blend together with water to make the size. I started
                          Message 12 of 12 , Sep 26, 2001
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                            We also carry a seaweed based size up in Canada called Sodium Alginate. It's
                            in a powder form which you blend together with water to make the size. I
                            started marbling with this size originally and found it to be much more
                            viscous and thick than the carrageenan. I do agree that the carrageenan
                            gives a much more clean look but I may try the sodium alginate again this
                            weekend to see if it makes a difference in warm weather...has anyone else
                            tried this product and what do you think of it? I liked it BEFORE I
                            discovered the carrageenan...but I still do use it on occasion.

                            Sonja

                            sixshort@... wrote:

                            > Hi all interested in marbling in hot weather - The added guargaum at
                            > the rate of 1:4 works just fine and allows for the finest lines in
                            > combing watercolour paints. Margo Snape tells me it comes from an
                            > Indian plant - haven't researched this myself yet. A higher ratio of
                            > guargum makes the size too viscous for me - more like the feel of
                            > methyl cellulose, and difficult to wash off.
                            > ornstarch - mm - haven't had good results making up ordinary
                            > cornstarch used to starch clothes - was unable to get any fine lines
                            > at all. I have often wondered whether there is an Australian plant -
                            > seaweed - that has the properties of carrageenan - so much here is
                            > still unexplored in various fields . . . . this such an
                            > interesting message bank - I have learned heaps through it . . thanks
                            > everyone . . . Joan --- In Marbling@y..., "J Dolphin" <jdolphin@s...>
                            > wrote:
                            > > I have tried the 'Ultra-Thick' twice. I was not successful in
                            > getting it to
                            > > be uniform in consistency. I tried acrylics and water colour paint
                            > and
                            > > gouache. The results were very weak pale distribution of colour.
                            > Maybe I
                            > > ought to try it again, though, and see what happens next.
                            > > Jill
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