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Automated Marbling Station

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  • briannqueen
    I’m building an automated marbling station and I have many questions about the equipment and process of marbling. I currently make hand papermaker and do
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 2, 2013
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         I’m building an automated marbling station and I have many questions about the equipment and process of marbling. I currently make hand papermaker and do letterpress printing but my main interest is in exploring new technologies to see how they intersect with the book arts in general.

         I recently attended a short afternoon introduction to marbling and saw the Cockerell & Son video from 1970. I noticed that the same video was posted on this list a few months ago. Although not automated in the sense I’m planning they did partially automate the process with an arm that passes the comb through the vat as seen in the film, although the rail that the arms slides along is out of the frame of the video. When I saw this video I immediately thought about how we might do this today with computer guided machinery. I understand that some of you will find this to be the antithesis of hand crafted marbled paper but exploring new technologies and processes is what interests me.

         I hope you will be patient with me as I ask detailed questions on what may seem obvious or mundane. My goal will be to create a professional level marbling set up. Rather than listing all the questions I have at once I’ll start with questions about the tray or vat (I've also seen trough, is there a preferred term?)

      -          How deep should the marbling vat be?

      -          What should the depth of the size be, or in other words how close to the top of the vat is the size?

      -          How much larger all around should the vat be than the paper?

      -          I will make the vat from stainless steel but should it be painted white?

      Thanking you in advance.

       

      Brian

    • irisnevins
      Interestingly.... most papers during Victorian days were machine marbled. I am trying to locate patent drawings for it online, but do know they are either in
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 2, 2013
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        Interestingly.... most papers during Victorian days were machine marbled. I am trying to locate patent drawings for it online, but do know they are either in the Wolfe History Of Marbling or Phoebe Easton's book on Marbling or both perhaps. Don't have time to look for the drawings at this time... maybe someone here knows where the 19th century patent drawings are located on the web.

        You may learn a lot from studying the plans. That said, The machines sort of knocked out some unusual patterns that they were not able to do. They were I believe not the type of machine you could set & forget, I think a fair amount of human presence was required to oversee it.

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com


        On 12/02/13, BQueen@... wrote:





        I?m building anautomated marbling station and I have many questions about the equipment andprocess of marbling. I currently make hand papermaker and do letterpressprinting but my main interest is in exploring new technologies to see how they intersectwith the book arts in general.

        I recently attendeda short afternoon introduction to marbling and saw the Cockerell & Son videofrom 1970. I noticed that the same video was posted on this list a few monthsago. Although not automated in the sense I?m planning they did partiallyautomate the process with an arm that passes the comb through the vat as seenin the film, although the rail that the arms slides along is out of the frameof the video. When I saw this video I immediately thought about how we might dothis today with computer guided machinery. I understand that some of you willfind this to be the antithesis of hand crafted marbled paper but exploring newtechnologies and processes is what interests me.

        I hope you will bepatient with me as I ask detailed questions on what may seem obvious ormundane. My goal will be to create a professional level marbling set up. Ratherthan listing all the questions I have at once I?ll start with questions aboutthe tray or vat (I've also seen trough, is there a preferred term?)

        - How deep should the marbling vat be?

        - What should the depth of the size be, or inother words how close to the top of the vat is the size?

        - How much larger all around should the vat bethan the paper?

        - I will make the vat from stainless steel but shouldit be painted white?

        Thanking you in advance.



        Brian
      • George Reynolds
        I think you are asking the wrong questions. I don t marble paper I marble fabric. Other people marble guitar bodies. The first question then is what marbling
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 3, 2013
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          I think you are asking the wrong questions. I don't marble paper I marble fabric. Other people marble guitar bodies. The first question then is what marbling process do you want to automate? It it's guitars your vat need to be a couple feet deep. If its fabric it can be shallow but it needs to accommodate potentially large pieces of fabric (many feet by many feet).

          My suggestion: take a marbling class and get back to us.
          George
        • irisnevins
          I ll make a bet I could marble faster than any machine, LOL! Likely many of us could. I also like the somewhat more random look of a hand marbled compared to
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 3, 2013
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            I'll make a bet I could marble faster than any machine, LOL! Likely many of us could. I also like the somewhat more random look of a hand marbled compared to even the Cockerell color dropping apparatus, not to knock Cockerell, they are/were amazing, beautiful papers, great colors etc. it's just a slightly more wild look I like in the papers, but not to the point where consistency is lost when doing a large run of papers. I must confess the last order that was about 750 of the same paper....I would not have minded having a marbling machine one bit! I would just imagine the Victorian machines, and any machine would require a human in attendance to trouble shoot the myriad little problems that crop up while marbling.... like cleaning the size well, adjusting the dispersant or gall, tere are just so many things to keep on top of, I cannot imagine a machine for marbling being a "set it and forget it" situation.

            Still, if you come up with one, I'd be very interested in seeing it. For paper marbling personally, I may start with a bath of aout two inches. It goes down as you work though, and therein lies one of the situations a machine may not be able to asses properly, if the size is shallower, the paint spread a little less, thus you may need to fine tune the ox gall or other dispersant as you go along. I do think, while the Victorian machine marbles were lovely, the hand made papers prior to about 1860 were far more interesting and prettier. They were more delicate in pattern, and did patterns that the machine possibly couldn't do, the colors were a little less deep, though not pale by any means. That era, late 1700s to about 1860, in my opinion, was the high point in marbling. The machines came into play during the industrial revolution. Printing was as of then done on a more mass production level. Books were churned out en masse. There were "Marbling Houses" that supplied the book industry, but they could no longer keep up, thus the marbling machine was born. Then by the turn of the century, around 1900 or so, even the machines couldn't keep up. Marbled books pretty much started to be a thing of the past, except when done by the smaller hand bookbinders.

            The Cockerells were, after this, really about the only mainstay still producing papers for books. Then the late 1960s - 1970s came, and just as though it was a virus spread by the wind, people, artists, all around the same period, with little to no communication with each other, started marbling. There was no web, no email, no cell phones....not even fax machines yet. I started marbling with a friend in a kitchen in Brooklyn, just for fun, in 1978. She had a friend who was a rare books librarian who clued us in with some old information, and we couldn't get it to work the longest time. We boiled handfuls of seaweed and strained it. It was a mess....she quit, I carried on. It took about four or five years before I found that others were doing this too. There were a small handful of us...and I only became aware of the others via a book we were all "collected" in, "American Decorative Papermakers". They listed our contact info, and we started communicating. No one marbled via machine, none of us do now still. Some have stopped marbling, others passed away, like Chris Weimann.

            As one who likes to take things apart and put them back together again, I'd be very interested what you have in mind with your marbling machine. It would be good to try and dig up the patent drawing plans for the Victorian machine. I can't find it now but it was pretty complex. You may get some ideas from it.

            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com



            On 12/03/13, George Reynolds<georger1998@...> wrote:

            I think you are asking the wrong questions. I don't marble paper I marble fabric. Other people marble guitar bodies. The first question then is what marbling process do you want to automate? It it's guitars your vat need to be a couple feet deep. If its fabric it can be shallow but it needs to accommodate potentially large pieces of fabric (many feet by many feet).

            My suggestion: take a marbling class and get back to us.
            George

            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo Groups Links
          • cherry_hill_drive
            Hi, All, At the Gathering at Arrowmont some 10 years ago (yikes!) I watched Galen Berry marble. He had developed some tools for dropping/ and I think
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 3, 2013
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              Hi, All,
               At the Gathering at Arrowmont some 10 years ago (yikes!) I watched Galen Berry marble.  He had developed some tools for dropping/ and I think patterning the paint, that were pretty amazing;  all hand operated. I understand he is not marbling as much any more, but he might be one to contact. http://marbleart.us.  I just visited his website, and he does not show his tools, just his wonderful patterning.
              It will be interesting to follow your quest for information - please continue to share.
              Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis


              -----Original Message-----
              From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
              To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 9:49 am
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Automated Marbling Station

               
              I'll make a bet I could marble faster than any machine, LOL! Likely many of us could. I also like the somewhat more random look of a hand marbled compared to even the Cockerell color dropping apparatus, not to knock Cockerell, they are/were amazing, beautiful papers, great colors etc. it's just a slightly more wild look I like in the papers, but not to the point where consistency is lost when doing a large run of papers. I must confess the last order that was about 750 of the same paper....I would not have minded having a marbling machine one bit! I would just imagine the Victorian machines, and any machine would require a human in attendance to trouble shoot the myriad little problems that crop up while marbling.... like cleaning the size well, adjusting the dispersant or gall, tere are just so many things to keep on top of, I cannot imagine a machine for marbling being a "set it and forget it" situation.

              Still, if you come up with one, I'd be very interested in seeing it. For paper marbling personally, I may start with a bath of aout two inches. It goes down as you work though, and therein lies one of the situations a machine may not be able to asses properly, if the size is shallower, the paint spread a little less, thus you may need to fine tune the ox gall or other dispersant as you go along. I do think, while the Victorian machine marbles were lovely, the hand made papers prior to about 1860 were far more interesting and prettier. They were more delicate in pattern, and did patterns that the machine possibly couldn't do, the colors were a little less deep, though not pale by any means. That era, late 1700s to about 1860, in my opinion, was the high point in marbling. The machines came into play during the industrial revolution. Printing was as of then done on a more mass production level. Books were churned out en masse. There were "Marbling Houses" tha t supplied the book industry, but they could no longer keep up, thus the marbling machine was born. Then by the turn of the century, around 1900 or so, even the machines couldn't keep up. Marbled books pretty much started to be a thing of the past, except when done by the smaller hand bookbinders.

              The Cockerells were, after this, really about the only mainstay still producing papers for books. Then the late 1960s - 1970s came, and just as though it was a virus spread by the wind, people, artists, all around the same period, with little to no communication with each other, started marbling. There was no web, no email, no cell phones....not even fax machines yet. I started marbling with a friend in a kitchen in Brooklyn, just for fun, in 1978. She had a friend who was a rare books librarian who clued us in with some old information, and we couldn't get it to work the longest time. We boiled handfuls of seaweed and strained it. It was a mess....she quit, I carried on. It took about four or five years before I found that others were doing this too. There were a small handful of us...and I only became aware of the others via a book we were all "collected" in, "American Decorative Papermakers". They listed our contact info, and we started communicatin g. No one marbled via machine, none of us do now still. Some have stopped marbling, others passed away, like Chris Weimann.

              As one who likes to take things apart and put them back together again, I'd be very interested what you have in mind with your marbling machine. It would be good to try and dig up the patent drawing plans for the Victorian machine. I can't find it now but it was pretty complex. You may get some ideas from it.

              Iris Nevins
              www.marblingpaper.com

              On 12/03/13, George Reynolds<georger1998@...> wrote:

              I think you are asking the wrong questions. I don't marble paper I marble fabric. Other people marble guitar bodies. The first question then is what marbling process do you want to automate? It it's guitars your vat need to be a couple feet deep. If its fabric it can be shallow but it needs to accommodate potentially large pieces of fabric (many feet by many feet).

              My suggestion: take a marbling class and get back to us.
              George

              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo Groups Links

            • briannqueen
              Hi George, Sorry I wasn t clear in my post, I will be marbling paper. I’m not sure yet on the size of paper but probably in the area of 18” x 24”. I have
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 3, 2013
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                Hi George,

                   Sorry I wasn't clear in my post, I will be marbling paper. I’m not sure yet on the size of paper but probably in the area of 18” x 24”. I have taken courses on marbling and I’m collaborating with a professional marbler on this project. You might then ask why I joined this group. I thought it beneficial to get the opinions of many marblers - the members of this group, crowdsourcing to use a current term.

                   I've already made a working prototype of the machine and it works; now I’m tooling up to make a professional version, hence all my exacting questions related to the height of the vat, the depth of the size in the vat, as I will need this information to program the machine and build the equipment. I wish I had taken some video of the working prototype but it’s now disassembled. I have many more questions I hope aren't too tedious.


                Brian

              • Sharon Gellerman
                Hi Brian, Your Machine sounds very exciting I hope you keep updating us because I m really curious to see how it s going to turn out. Thank you Sharon
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 3, 2013
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                  Hi Brian,

                  Your Machine sounds very exciting I hope you keep updating us because I'm really curious to see how it's going to turn out.

                  Thank you
                  Sharon Gellerman
                  www.colorvibedesigns.com

                  On Dec 3, 2013 5:04 PM, <BQueen@...> wrote:
                   

                  Hi George,

                     Sorry I wasn't clear in my post, I will be marbling paper. I’m not sure yet on the size of paper but probably in the area of 18” x 24”. I have taken courses on marbling and I’m collaborating with a professional marbler on this project. You might then ask why I joined this group. I thought it beneficial to get the opinions of many marblers - the members of this group, crowdsourcing to use a current term.

                     I've already made a working prototype of the machine and it works; now I’m tooling up to make a professional version, hence all my exacting questions related to the height of the vat, the depth of the size in the vat, as I will need this information to program the machine and build the equipment. I wish I had taken some video of the working prototype but it’s now disassembled. I have many more questions I hope aren't too tedious.


                  Brian

                • briannqueen
                  Hi Iris, Thank you for your insight and some of the history of paper marbling. Semi-automated marbling in Victorian England? That does sound interesting. I’m
                  Message 8 of 18 , Dec 3, 2013
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                    Hi Iris,

                       Thank you for your insight and some of the history of paper marbling. Semi-automated marbling in Victorian England? That does sound interesting. I’m seeing brass gears and such. It makes me think of the current art genre called Steampunk.

                       The method I’m using is called CNC (computer numerical control), which is just a fancy way of saying a machine controlled by a computer. The computer controls special electric motors that move a gantry over a flat bed where the vat and all the various tools are placed, pots of colour, combs. The gantry moves over this bed left to right (the X axis) front to back (the y axis) and up and down (the Z axis) or any combination of all three of these movements at the same time. I program the machine to move to a position over a comb for instance, turn on an electromagnet to pick up the comb, move it to a position over the vat, lower the comb into the vat and pull it through, straight or in any curved motion, lift it out of the vat and return it to its cradle on the table by turning off the electromagnet.

                       Before the advent of this technology machines were entirely mechanical - motion created by gears and gogs, cams and numerous other parts – think of a watch. I’m guessing the semi-automated Victorian marbling machines used this technology. The big difference is that a CNC machine can be easily programmed to follow any movement or path, even an irregular path.

                       I've read elsewhere, I can’t remember where, a criticism of the Cockerell papers being somewhat mechanical, a little too consistent, something you also echoed. This is understandable given the equipment used to produce it, but here’s something interesting about a CNC machine and computer algorithms. Within the program it would be possible to add what I would call “noise” to the code. You would start with a number of variables, you might not comb at the same speed or in a perfectly straight line. By varying these parameters every time utilizing a random number generator no two sheets would ever be the same. You could control these variables, like turning a dial on your stove – more random or less random. It still wouldn't be the same as human motion as humans tend to repeat certain actions but we’re starting to split hairs.

                       To take this to the next level, I could film your movements for a particular type of marbled sheet hundreds of times and store that information and then program a CNC machine to marble in your “style”, utilizing movements unique only to you. This is not science fiction, it’s already possible. I’m not currently planning on taking it to this level but I do think about these possibilities.

                       The machine I've prototyped will need human intervention. While it could be designed to lay the paper onto the size and remove it, I hadn't planned on going that far. It will definitely have its limitations and of course it doesn't replace the years of experience and knowledge gained by hand marbling, it’s just another tool.

                      As for the height of the size in the vat I would have a reservoir and valve that would automatically add size to the vat keeping the depth constant. This is also necessary as the combs will drop into the size a predetermined depth.

                       Thank you again for your thoughts and observations.

                     

                    Brian

                     

                     

                  • irisnevins
                    Sounds interesting, kep us updated Iris Nevins www.marblingpaper.com On 12/03/13, BQueen@shaw.ca wrote: Hi Iris, Thank you for your insight and some of
                    Message 9 of 18 , Dec 3, 2013
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                      Sounds interesting, kep us updated

                      Iris Nevins
                      www.marblingpaper.com


                      On 12/03/13, BQueen@... wrote:





                      Hi Iris,

                      Thank you for your insight and some of thehistory of paper marbling. Semi-automated marbling in Victorian England? Thatdoes sound interesting. I?m seeing brass gears and such. It makes me think ofthe current art genre called Steampunk.

                      The method I?m using is called CNC(computer numerical control), which is just a fancy way of saying a machinecontrolled by a computer. The computer controls special electric motors thatmove a gantry over a flat bed where the vat and all the various tools areplaced, pots of colour, combs. The gantry moves over this bed left to right(the X axis) front to back (the y axis) and up and down (the Z axis) or anycombination of all three of these movements at the same time. I program themachine to move to a position over a comb for instance, turn on anelectromagnet to pick up the comb, move it to a position over the vat, lowerthe comb into the vat and pull it through, straight or in any curved motion,lift it out of the vat and return it to its cradle on the table by turning offthe electromagnet.

                      Before the advent of this technology machineswere entirely mechanical - motion created by gears and gogs, cams and numerousother parts ? think of a watch. I?m guessing the semi-automated Victorianmarbling machines used this technology. The big difference is that a CNCmachine can be easily programmed to follow any movement or path, even anirregular path.

                      I've read elsewhere,I can?t remember where, a criticism of the Cockerell papers being somewhat mechanical,a little too consistent, something you also echoed. This is understandablegiven the equipment used to produce it, but here?s something interesting abouta CNC machine and computer algorithms. Within the program it would be possibleto add what I would call ?noise? to the code. You would start with a number ofvariables, you might not comb at the same speed or in a perfectly straight line.By varying these parameters every time utilizing a random number generator notwo sheets would ever be the same. You could control these variables, liketurning a dial on your stove ? more random or less random. It still wouldn't bethe same as human motion as humans tend to repeat certain actions but we?restarting to split hairs.

                      To take this to thenext level, I could film your movements for a particular type of marbled sheet hundredsof times and store that information and then program a CNC machine to marble inyour ?style?, utilizing movements unique only to you. This is not sciencefiction, it?s already possible. I?m not currently planning on taking itto this level but I do think about these possibilities.

                      The machine I'veprototyped will need human intervention. While it could be designed to lay thepaper onto the size and remove it, I hadn't planned on going that far. It willdefinitely have its limitations and of course it doesn't replace the years of experienceand knowledge gained by hand marbling, it?s just another tool.

                      As for the height ofthe size in the vat I would have a reservoir and valve that would automaticallyadd size to the vat keeping the depth constant. This is also necessary as the combswill drop into the size a predetermined depth.

                      Thank you again foryour thoughts and observations.



                      Brian
                    • Roger Austin
                      My guess is that the CNC part of the experiment will be straightforward. The difficulty would be all the little decisions that are made when someone doing hand
                      Message 10 of 18 , Dec 4, 2013
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                        My guess is that the CNC part of the experiment will be straightforward. The difficulty would be all the little decisions that are made when someone doing hand marbling that are difficult to put into software. For many of us, it can still be frustrating at times to get all the parts working at the same time so you get a nice paper.

                        I'm thinking of the paint deposition, consistency, size consistency, etc. I bet Iris makes a thousand little decisions without thinking about them while she is marbling. I've marbled some and there are so many variables to control.

                        Is this just an experiment or are you thinking of trying to automate the process so you can produce more papers?
                        --
                        LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-austin/8/a4/60
                        Twitter: http://twitter.com/RogerTheGeek
                        Blog: http://RogerTheGeek.wordpress.com/
                      • George Reynolds
                        Brian I took a marbling class from Dan and Regina StJohn a few years ago and I now recall Dan showing us some paper that had been created by a automated
                        Message 11 of 18 , Dec 4, 2013
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                          Brian
                          I took a marbling class from Dan and Regina StJohn a few years ago and I now recall Dan showing us some paper that had been created by a automated process. Dont remember how it worked but you can contact them thru  http://chenarivermarblers.com/

                          George
                          PS I have an automated process for creating specific designs:
                          Step 1: scan in paper at 300 dpi
                          Step 2: tweak in Photoshop
                          Step 3: print many copies using sublimation ink on tiles or giclee on paper or canvas. 
                          The results are actually quite amazing because in both sublimation ink and giclee one can color correct on a sample or two before printing a bunch. 

                        • irisnevins
                          The old marbling machines made some pretty decent papers, so I don t doubt a CNC machine would do well too. Still those little decisions... it s like cooking
                          Message 12 of 18 , Dec 4, 2013
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                            The old marbling machines made some pretty decent papers, so I don't doubt a CNC machine would do well too. Still those little decisions... it's like cooking or something....needs another pinch of salt, etc. Can you teach it to understand the feel of the bath? It doesn't matter if you have the most precise measurements of water to carragenan when the weather changes throughout the day, the size will get more or less viscous. It needs to understand the bath may get a little more shallow as you go.

                            I would not mind a robot to hang papers up!
                            Iris Nevins
                            www.marblingpaper.com


                            On 12/04/13, Roger Austin<raustin3@...> wrote:

                            My guess is that the CNC part of the experiment will be straightforward. The difficulty would be all the little decisions that are made when someone doing hand marbling that are difficult to put into software. For many of us, it can still be frustrating at times to get all the parts working at the same time so you get a nice paper.

                            I'm thinking of the paint deposition, consistency, size consistency, etc. I bet Iris makes a thousand little decisions without thinking about them while she is marbling. I've marbled some and there are so many variables to control.

                            Is this just an experiment or are you thinking of trying to automate the process so you can produce more papers?
                            --
                            LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-austin/8/a4/60
                            Twitter: http://twitter.com/RogerTheGeek
                            Blog: http://RogerTheGeek.wordpress.com/



                            ------------------------------------

                            Yahoo Groups Links
                          • irisnevins
                            I agree that even inkjet ink, if you print on the paper you normally marble on, could fool the best of them. However bookbinders want the handmade aspect of
                            Message 13 of 18 , Dec 4, 2013
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                              I agree that even inkjet ink, if you print on the paper you normally marble on, could fool the best of them. However bookbinders want the handmade aspect of it. Frankly I often wonder why the small bookbinders I sell to seem to never do this rather than buy it. I do know they need to sell the book or binding as all hand made, even along with all the little irregularities, like a little more yellow being in the upper right or left than the previous "same" paper. 100% consistency in printing just doesn't have the snob appeal when someone is charging $500 to bind a book for someone.

                              Still, I am intrigued and hope you post pictures and progress!
                              Iris Nevins
                              www.marblingpaper.com


                              On 12/04/13, George Reynolds<georger1998@...> wrote:



                              Brian
                              I took a marbling class from Dan and Regina StJohn a few years ago and I now recall Dan showing us some paper that had been created by a automated process. Dont remember how it worked but you can contact them thru http://chenarivermarblers.com/


                              George
                              PS I have an automated process for creating specific designs:
                              Step 1: scan in paper at 300 dpi
                              Step 2: tweak in Photoshop
                              Step 3: print many copies using sublimation ink on tiles or giclee on paper or canvas.
                              The results are actually quite amazing because in both sublimation ink and giclee one can color correct on a sample or two before printing a bunch.
                            • Aaron Salik
                              The patent that I know of can be found here: http://www.google.com/patents/US1742250 This is for a continuous web, meaning producing marbled paper on rolls. --
                              Message 14 of 18 , Dec 4, 2013
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                                The patent that I know of can be found here:

                                This is for a continuous web, meaning producing marbled paper on rolls.

                                --
                                Regards,
                                Aaron Salik

                                Talas
                                330 Morgan Ave
                                Brooklyn NY 11211
                                212-219-0770 Phone
                                212-219-0735 Fax
                                http://talasonline.com
                                http://talasonline.blogspot.com/
                              • irisnevins
                                Thanks Aaron....I didn t know of this one. There is an earlier one, from the 1800s. I have not had time to locate it. I am sure it is in the Easton book at
                                Message 15 of 18 , Dec 4, 2013
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                                  Thanks Aaron....I didn't know of this one. There is an earlier one, from the 1800s. I have not had time to locate it. I am sure it is in the Easton book at least, pretty sure.
                                  Iris Nevins
                                  www.marblingpaper.com


                                  On 12/04/13, Aaron Salik<aaron@...> wrote:




                                  The patent that I know of can be found here:
                                  http://www.google.com/patents/US1742250


                                  This is for a continuous web, meaning producing marbled paper on rolls.


                                  --
                                  Regards,
                                  Aaron Salik

                                  Talas
                                  330 Morgan Ave
                                  Brooklyn NY 11211
                                  212-219-0770 Phone
                                  212-219-0735 Fax
                                  http://talasonline.com
                                  http://talasonline.blogspot.com/
                                • briannqueen
                                  Hi Austin, I agree with you that the hand marbler may be making many decisions almost unconsciously. The automated process would not easily adapt to all these
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Dec 4, 2013
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                                    Hi Austin,

                                       I agree with you that the hand marbler may be making many decisions almost unconsciously. The automated process would not easily adapt to all these changes. Machine vision is doable, a friend of mine is now selling a program and system were his quadrocopter hovers near a red soccer ball. As he walks around the room holding the ball it follows him. We all had a good laugh however when he passed by a red fire extinguisher and quadrocopter stopped following the ball and just hovered next to the fire extinguisher. This system could be used to locate and position itself over a round dot of colour on the marbling tray but if the machine placed the colour in the first place I don’t see the need unless it moves.

                                       My interest in this machine is largely creating it and playing around for a while marbling for friends or a particular project, I don’t have any desire to start selling the paper however my marbler friend may want to do that. I’m also interested in exploring whether it could produce something entirely new. Since a human can make just about it any movement it would probably involve something that requires extreme accuracy or a repetitive movement that would be mind-numbingly boring for a human to do.

                                       I’m also a believer in the open source principle so I will be happy to share whatever I've learned by posting pictures, drawings or code.


                                    Brian

                                  • Roger Austin
                                    It sounds like a lot of fun. One thing to consider is hacking out an old dot matrix printer head to apply the colors. That would be an entire other project
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Dec 4, 2013
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                                      It sounds like a lot of fun. One thing to consider is hacking out an old dot matrix printer head to apply the colors. That would be an entire other project though.

                                      I agree that the creation of the image would be a lot easier than laying down the paper mechanically. I always found the paper handing to be where I lack the most skill.

                                      My late spouse was the marbler and I picked it up from her. She took Mimi Schleicher's Arrowmont class a number of years ago and I picked it up with her over time.

                                      ---- BQueen@... wrote:
                                      > Hi Austin,
                                      > I agree with you that the hand marbler may be making many decisions almost unconsciously. The automated process would not easily adapt to all these changes. Machine vision is doable, a friend of mine is now selling a program and system were his quadrocopter hovers near a red soccer ball. As he walks around the room holding the ball it follows him. We all had a good laugh however when he passed by a red fire extinguisher and quadrocopter stopped following the ball and just hovered next to the fire extinguisher. This system could be used to locate and position itself over a round dot of colour on the marbling tray but if the machine placed the colour in the first place I don’t see the need unless it moves.
                                      > My interest in this machine is largely creating it and playing around for a while marbling for friends or a particular project, I don’t have any desire to start selling the paper however my marbler friend may want to do that. I’m also interested in exploring whether it could produce something entirely new. Since a human can make just about it any movement it would probably involve something that requires extreme accuracy or a repetitive movement that would be mind-numbingly boring for a human to do.
                                      >
                                      > I’m also a believer in the open source principle so I will be happy to share whatever I've learned by posting pictures, drawings or code.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Brian

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                                    • briannqueen
                                      Dispensing ink using printer heads - that is another project however I find I have to stay focused on one or two project at a time or I don t end up completing
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Dec 5, 2013
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                                        Dispensing ink using printer heads - that is another project however I find I have to stay focused on one or two project at a time or I don't end up completing anything!

                                        Brian

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