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marbling on silk advice please

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  • juderiley2003
    Hello everyone, I have been marbling for many years on paper and on silk. I have one problem that I am looking for help with. When marbling on silk it bothers
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 15, 2013
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      Hello everyone,

      I have been marbling for many years on paper and on silk. I have one problem that I am looking for help with. When marbling on silk it bothers me that the design is very much a one sided print. When making fine silk scarves I would like the design to show on both sides. I am based in Wales, U.K. and use carrageen sea weed for my bath. I have tried many different types of silk paint over the years, some are better than others but all give the 'one sided print'. I also find that marbling affects the handle and lustre of the silk, this problem is worse when using acrylics such as Golden fluid which give a lovely bright image but make the silk dull and stiff. Would methyl cellulose be the answer? I am not sure about availability in the U.K.

      If using ready rolled scarves the hem does not marble well and leaves an ugly white border on the scarf. I have tried running my finger around the edge of the scarf as it lies on the bath, this is only partly successful.

      Finally, I worry about the durability of the design. I fix by ironing or sometimes in the oven. When I read of people washing their silk in a machine, I just wonder how they don't just wash the marbling right off. I also find that machine washing silk, before or after marbling leaves permanent creases.

      I would be very grateful for any suggestions.

      Thanks,

      Jude
    • D or Jer Guffey
      Hi... I marbled silk scarves for many years. The reason the color doesn t show on both sides is because when you alum the scarf the chemistry of marbling bonds
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 15, 2013
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        Hi...
         
        I marbled silk scarves for many years. The reason the color doesn't show on both sides is because when you alum the scarf the chemistry of marbling bonds the pigments of the paint to the alum, which is on the top surface of the silk. You might try marbling with oil colors (no need to alum) but that requires diluting the oil paints with paint thinner and is a bit messier and toxic than with acrylics. I know this, because when I first started marbling (in 1976) I was taught the oil paint technique. When I learned to do acrylics I never went back. When marbling with oils, the paint would penetrate the paper (rather than sit on top as it does with acrylic paints) and sometimes the colors would show up on the other side of the paper (not good if you needed to use for endpapers!).
         
        As for laying down the colors for a ready rolled scarf, start at one end of your tank and then slowly let the silk down from one end to the other...don't try to put the silk down all at once. This will give it a chance to absorb the colors on the hem edge. At least this was the technique that worked for me. Silk chiffon scarves were less "stiff" after marbling than were the China silk, but they didn't have the nice sheen that the China silk has.
         
        Hope this is of some help. Before experimenting with oil paints on silk scarves, perhaps you can get a remnant of silk to play with to see if it would work to have colors go to both sides...I've never tried, so I don't know.
         
        As for laundering, I can't imagine why someone would put a silk scarf in a washing machine when they are so easily washed by hand. After marbling my scarves I would rinse, let them dry, then iron to take out the wrinkles and they were quite soft to the touch.
         
        d.guffey 

        Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 2:16 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] marbling on silk advice please

         

        Hello everyone,

        I have been marbling for many years on paper and on silk. I have one problem that I am looking for help with. When marbling on silk it bothers me that the design is very much a one sided print. When making fine silk scarves I would like the design to show on both sides. I am based in Wales, U.K. and use carrageen sea weed for my bath. I have tried many different types of silk paint over the years, some are better than others but all give the 'one sided print'. I also find that marbling affects the handle and lustre of the silk, this problem is worse when using acrylics such as Golden fluid which give a lovely bright image but make the silk dull and stiff. Would methyl cellulose be the answer? I am not sure about availability in the U.K.

        If using ready rolled scarves the hem does not marble well and leaves an ugly white border on the scarf. I have tried running my finger around the edge of the scarf as it lies on the bath, this is only partly successful.

        Finally, I worry about the durability of the design. I fix by ironing or sometimes in the oven. When I read of people washing their silk in a machine, I just wonder how they don't just wash the marbling right off. I also find that machine washing silk, before or after marbling leaves permanent creases.

        I would be very grateful for any suggestions.

        Thanks,

        Jude

      • Suzanne Mallery
        Jude, I dislike the one-sided effect also. I was in Istanbul last year and found some hand-marbled silk scarves that were looked really good on both sides. I
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 15, 2013
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          Jude,
          I dislike the one-sided effect also.  I was in Istanbul last year and found some hand-marbled silk scarves that were looked really good on both sides.  I talked with the marbler who said she had used Pebeo marbling paints (not Pebeo silk paints).  I haven't been able to get those in the US but have seen them sold on UK and Turkish websites.  One of my marbling friends in Turkey and I tried it (on carageenan) and found that it worked well and resolved the problem we'd both had with one-sided prints.

          I have the same problem with hems, and haven't found a good solution for this other than hemming them after marbling, but of course this means the ready hemmed scarves aren't useful. 

          Suzanne
        • George Reynolds
          I have been marbling silk scarves for a couple years now and here is what I have learned: 1. Haboti or China silk is the best for allowing the color to show
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 15, 2013
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            I have been marbling silk scarves for a couple years now and here is what I have learned:
            1. Haboti or China silk is the best for allowing the color to show thru. It's not as clear as the marbled side but looks beautiful in its own way.
            2. Use pre dyed scarves like one can buy from Exotic Silks which seems to be the wholesale arm of Thai Silks. This prevents the white boarder problem you mention.
            3. Wash the scarves with Synthropol before you add Alum by putting 4 or 5 of them in a zippered porous bag. I usually wash 5 or 6 bags at a time (so 20 to 30 scarves). This prevents the scarves from tangling around each other and around the center post, if you have that kind of washer, and prevents the creasing you mention. Also stop the washer just before the final spin. Just hang them and let them dry. This helps prevent any creasing also.
            4. You need to rinse the scarves lightly a couple times right after marbling and then leave them alone for at least a week before you do any vigorous rinsing. My guess is that the stiffness you are getting is from the carrageenan that has not rinsed out. However to much paint can cause some stiffness.
            5. Acrylic paint is a plastic and once it dries for a week or two it's not going anywhere unless you did not wash with Synthropol so there was still sizing on the scarf when you started. The paint never really bound to the fabric and flakes off when you wash.
            6. I recently sent some test scarves to the dry cleaners and they came back fine and beautifully pressed. However I still recommend that people hand wash them with very light soap.
            Hope this helps
            George
          • europamedical
            I was in Ankara on an Ebru course earlier this year and we also used Pebeo as well.  I m located in London and they are available by mail order as well . The
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 17, 2013
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              I was in Ankara on an Ebru course earlier this year and we also used Pebeo as well.  I'm located in London and they are available by mail order as well . The cheapest I've been able to find are at  http://www.pullingers.com/P~PEBEO_MARBLING~Pebeo-Marbling-Paint
               
              Their service is very prompt.
               
              Phyllis
               
               
            • juderiley2003
              Many thanks to everyone for your suggestions.. I ll be working through them on my next marbling session. Interestingly, I was in Turkey earlier this year and
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 17, 2013
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                Many thanks to everyone for your suggestions.. I'll be working through them on my next marbling session.

                Interestingly, I was in Turkey earlier this year and also saw Pebeo marbling colours used. On my return I ordered some from Pullingers and was very disappointed with the results on a carrageen bath - very jagged stones which broke up horribly when raked. My next plan is to try them with Pebeo marbling ground.

                Thanks again and happy marbling!

                Jude

                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, juderiley2003@... wrote:
                >
                > Hello everyone,
                >
                > I have been marbling for many years on paper and on silk. I have one problem that I am looking for help with. When marbling on silk it bothers me that the design is very much a one sided print. When making fine silk scarves I would like the design to show on both sides. I am based in Wales, U.K. and use carrageen sea weed for my bath. I have tried many different types of silk paint over the years, some are better than others but all give the 'one sided print'. I also find that marbling affects the handle and lustre of the silk, this problem is worse when using acrylics such as Golden fluid which give a lovely bright image but make the silk dull and stiff. Would methyl cellulose be the answer? I am not sure about availability in the U.K.
                >
                > If using ready rolled scarves the hem does not marble well and leaves an ugly white border on the scarf. I have tried running my finger around the edge of the scarf as it lies on the bath, this is only partly successful.
                >
                > Finally, I worry about the durability of the design. I fix by ironing or sometimes in the oven. When I read of people washing their silk in a machine, I just wonder how they don't just wash the marbling right off. I also find that machine washing silk, before or after marbling leaves permanent creases.
                >
                > I would be very grateful for any suggestions.
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                > Jude
                >
              • Eisemann
                Pullinger s does not ship to the U.S. Elinor Eisemann
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 23, 2013
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                  Pullinger’s does not ship to the U.S.

                  Elinor Eisemann

                • hhumler
                  i posted several years ago that i marble with the rolled edge against the paint. was roundly questioned on WHY would i marble on the wrong side of the scarf
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 25, 2013
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                    i posted several years ago that i marble with the rolled edge against the paint.  was roundly questioned on "WHY would i marble on the wrong side of the scarf" but there is no right or wrong side until the color is applies.  since the roll takes up the color, the reverse side of the rolled edge simply looks like the rest of the now wrong side of the scarf.  admittedly there is a little less density of color, but after about 15 years of marbling, i know that this is a better solution than designating one side of a white scarf the right side before it is marbled. 



                    ---In marbling@yahoogroups.com, <geisemann@...> wrote:

                    Pullinger’s does not ship to the U.S.

                    Elinor Eisemann

                  • Laura Sims
                    Dear Jude, I must admit that I generally prefer a little heavier weight silk with good drape so the image only prints on one side.  You may want to consider
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 8, 2013
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                      Dear Jude,

                      I must admit that I generally prefer a little heavier weight silk with good drape so the image only prints on one side.  You may want to consider learning to dye your own backgrounds, working on jacquard silks and/or marbling front and back.  If you do the later be sure to include on your care tag to use an ironing cloth to protect the printed silk from the iron face.

                      As for acrylic paints, yes, they coat the surface therefore masking the luster.  You may want to try opening "windows" in your design with a surfactant so that you get a contrast between the luster of the silk and the mat finish.  I do use Golden with their fabric medium (helps with hand of silk and wash fastness), but I do not cover the entire surface with paint either.  I personally like methyl cellulose because it lasts longer, greatly reduces pin holing from dust (I used to have a studio next to a mica company) and I can get the line quality I need for my work.  I use a methocel by Dow Chemical.

                      I do fix my images by ironing with medium heat, though curing with time also works.  I do not use a washing machine or dryer.  For my images the motion "scares" the image with little lines anywhere there is a fold.  After heat setting I soak the methyl cellulose out in warm water with a little soap.  Then soak to rinse before hanging them up.

                      Also, keep in mind that when you iron or put something in the oven that intense heat and alum create sulfuric acid so keep heat to a minimum and if ironing keep that iron moving.

                      Hope some of this was helpful.

                      Best,
                      Laura


                      From: "juderiley2003@..." <juderiley2003@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 5:16 AM
                      Subject: [Marbling] marbling on silk advice please

                       
                      Hello everyone,

                      I have been marbling for many years on paper and on silk. I have one problem that I am looking for help with. When marbling on silk it bothers me that the design is very much a one sided print. When making fine silk scarves I would like the design to show on both sides. I am based in Wales, U.K. and use carrageen sea weed for my bath. I have tried many different types of silk paint over the years, some are better than others but all give the 'one sided print'. I also find that marbling affects the handle and lustre of the silk, this problem is worse when using acrylics such as Golden fluid which give a lovely bright image but make the silk dull and stiff. Would methyl cellulose be the answer? I am not sure about availability in the U.K.

                      If using ready rolled scarves the hem does not marble well and leaves an ugly white border on the scarf. I have tried running my finger around the edge of the scarf as it lies on the bath, this is only partly successful.

                      Finally, I worry about the durability of the design. I fix by ironing or sometimes in the oven. When I read of people washing their silk in a machine, I just wonder how they don't just wash the marbling right off. I also find that machine washing silk, before or after marbling leaves permanent creases.

                      I would be very grateful for any suggestions.

                      Thanks,

                      Jude



                    • George Reynolds
                      Laura thanks so much for your suggestion about pre dyeing silk before marbling. I have been buying pre dyed silk at Exotic Silks but they have become so slow
                      Message 10 of 10 , Oct 9, 2013
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                        Laura thanks so much for your suggestion about pre dyeing silk before marbling. I have been buying pre dyed silk at Exotic Silks but they have become so slow as to be useless. So time to learn how to dye myself. At this point I simply want a uniform color that works well with marbling. Can you suggest at technique/you tube video/whatever that you would recommend as the best approach for dyeing.
                        Thanks!
                        George
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