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Re: [Marbling] Sigh

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  • Nancy Akerly
    Kim, I have had consistent success with my marbling, but do almost the same things you do. I use two Tbsp plus two tsp of Carrageenan per gallon of water, and
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 30, 2012
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      Kim, I have had consistent success with my marbling, but do almost the same things you do. I use two Tbsp plus two tsp of Carrageenan per gallon of water, and use Galen Berry's wonderful paints, which I order from his MarbleArt site. I use about a teaspoon of alum per cup of water, not necessarily warm, and let the papers dry before I stack them. I overlap the strokes in one direction, then repeat in the opposite direction, with a wet sponge. Don't know if these differences are the answer for you. If you are anywhere near Northern Wisconsin I have a Marbling Intensive class in late January at Peninsula Art School in Fish Creek. Or I would highly recommend a class with Galen Berry, who teaches all over the country, or with Pat K. Thomas of Seen My Marbles?, who teaches at John.C Campbell Folk School in North Carolina, among other places.
      Best wishes for the next time. It's well worth persevering!
      Nancy Akerly

      Sent from my iPad
      Liberty Grove Paper Arts
      http://www.libertygrovepaperarts.com

      On Dec 30, 2012, at 9:00 PM, "KimH" <kahether@...> wrote:

      > I just finished my first attempt, alone, at marbling. I didn't have great success, but it wasn't a complete failure either. I have some comments and questions.
      >
      > I mixed the alum according to instructions - 2 Tablespoons per pint hot water. I let that cool and then sponged (wet but not soaking) with overlapping strokes onto Arches Textwove. I laid all papers in the same direction between two press boards while they dried.
      >
      > The carrageenan was also mixed according to instructions. Two tablespoons per gallon, mixed in batches by blender. I left the carrageenan to sit overnight.
      >
      > The paint - horrible results. I thinned acrylic, with distilled water, to a consistency of thin cream - or milk. It didn't float on the carrageenan, so I added more water. That didn't work, so I added some photo-flo. That didn't help either. I didn't know if I should keep adding water or photo-flo until the paint floated on the surface. I ended up using some acrylics that were in a small marbling kit with very mixed results. The other paints never floated or spread on the surface.
      >
      > Also, the alum did not seem to take on the paper. I don't know why. Most of my color washed away when I rinsed the marbled paper.
      >
      > My carrageenan ended up badly contaminated and I gave up after 3 tries. I still have some clean carrageenan, and I thought I would experiment a little more tomorrow with the acrylics - to see if I can find a good mixture to float. Is there a good/best mixture (recipe) for acrylic paints? Would it be better to try oils?
      >
      > ANY COMMENTS WELCOME!
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nancy Akerly
      Kim, I almost forget - paper! I have marbled many different kinds of paper and a few woods. My favorite is also from Galen Berry, texoprint paper, which he
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 30, 2012
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        Kim, I almost forget - paper! I have marbled many different kinds of paper and a few woods. My favorite is also from Galen Berry, texoprint paper, which he sells at a very reasonable rate. As he says on hisnwebsire, '. A very durable 55-lb. white paper, with a slight latex content, which makes it great for marbling since it is not harmed or weakened when it gets wet, it won't rip or tear easily, and it dries out flat.' I have not had good luck with Arches.
        Again best wishes,
        Nancy

        Sent from my iPad
        Liberty Grove Paper Arts
        http://www.libertygrovepaperarts.com

        On Dec 30, 2012, at 9:56 PM, Nancy Akerly <nakerly@...> wrote:

        > Kim, I have had consistent success with my marbling, but do almost the same things you do. I use two Tbsp plus two tsp of Carrageenan per gallon of water, and use Galen Berry's wonderful paints, which I order from his MarbleArt site. I use about a teaspoon of alum per cup of water, not necessarily warm, and let the papers dry before I stack them. I overlap the strokes in one direction, then repeat in the opposite direction, with a wet sponge. Don't know if these differences are the answer for you. If you are anywhere near Northern Wisconsin I have a Marbling Intensive class in late January at Peninsula Art School in Fish Creek. Or I would highly recommend a class with Galen Berry, who teaches all over the country, or with Pat K. Thomas of Seen My Marbles?, who teaches at John.C Campbell Folk School in North Carolina, among other places.
        > Best wishes for the next time. It's well worth persevering!
        > Nancy Akerly
        >
        > Sent from my iPad
        > Liberty Grove Paper Arts
        > http://www.libertygrovepaperarts.com
        >
        > On Dec 30, 2012, at 9:00 PM, "KimH" <kahether@...> wrote:
        >
        > > I just finished my first attempt, alone, at marbling. I didn't have great success, but it wasn't a complete failure either. I have some comments and questions.
        > >
        > > I mixed the alum according to instructions - 2 Tablespoons per pint hot water. I let that cool and then sponged (wet but not soaking) with overlapping strokes onto Arches Textwove. I laid all papers in the same direction between two press boards while they dried.
        > >
        > > The carrageenan was also mixed according to instructions. Two tablespoons per gallon, mixed in batches by blender. I left the carrageenan to sit overnight.
        > >
        > > The paint - horrible results. I thinned acrylic, with distilled water, to a consistency of thin cream - or milk. It didn't float on the carrageenan, so I added more water. That didn't work, so I added some photo-flo. That didn't help either. I didn't know if I should keep adding water or photo-flo until the paint floated on the surface. I ended up using some acrylics that were in a small marbling kit with very mixed results. The other paints never floated or spread on the surface.
        > >
        > > Also, the alum did not seem to take on the paper. I don't know why. Most of my color washed away when I rinsed the marbled paper.
        > >
        > > My carrageenan ended up badly contaminated and I gave up after 3 tries. I still have some clean carrageenan, and I thought I would experiment a little more tomorrow with the acrylics - to see if I can find a good mixture to float. Is there a good/best mixture (recipe) for acrylic paints? Would it be better to try oils?
        > >
        > > ANY COMMENTS WELCOME!
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sohail Akhtar
        hi. i m sohail sohail from karachi pakistan.  for floating color u can add any dishwasing detergin in color few drops it will flow better. use it then email
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 31, 2012
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          hi. i m sohail sohail from karachi pakistan.  for floating color u can add any dishwasing detergin in color few drops it will flow better. use it then email me.  sohail_7000@... thanks.


          ________________________________
          From: KimH <kahether@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 8:00 AM
          Subject: [Marbling] Sigh


           
          I just finished my first attempt, alone, at marbling. I didn't have great success, but it wasn't a complete failure either. I have some comments and questions.

          I mixed the alum according to instructions - 2 Tablespoons per pint hot water. I let that cool and then sponged (wet but not soaking) with overlapping strokes onto Arches Textwove. I laid all papers in the same direction between two press boards while they dried.

          The carrageenan was also mixed according to instructions. Two tablespoons per gallon, mixed in batches by blender. I left the carrageenan to sit overnight.

          The paint - horrible results. I thinned acrylic, with distilled water, to a consistency of thin cream - or milk. It didn't float on the carrageenan, so I added more water. That didn't work, so I added some photo-flo. That didn't help either. I didn't know if I should keep adding water or photo-flo until the paint floated on the surface. I ended up using some acrylics that were in a small marbling kit with very mixed results. The other paints never floated or spread on the surface.

          Also, the alum did not seem to take on the paper. I don't know why. Most of my color washed away when I rinsed the marbled paper.

          My carrageenan ended up badly contaminated and I gave up after 3 tries. I still have some clean carrageenan, and I thought I would experiment a little more tomorrow with the acrylics - to see if I can find a good mixture to float. Is there a good/best mixture (recipe) for acrylic paints? Would it be better to try oils?

          ANY COMMENTS WELCOME!




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • irisnevins
          Yes, this is true. I have done this when out of ox gall. However it is VERY strong usually (By the way I tried some pure brands like Dr. Bronner, and it
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 31, 2012
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            Yes, this is true. I have done this when out of ox gall. However it is VERY strong usually (By the way I tried some "pure" brands like Dr. Bronner, and it didn't work at all!) so I dilute a few drops, maybe 5 into 1/2 cup water, THEN use as ox gall would be used.

            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com



            On 12/31/12, Sohail Akhtar<sohail_7000@...> wrote:

            hi. i m sohail sohail from karachi pakistan. � for floating color u can add any dishwasing detergin in color few drops it will flow better. use it then email me. � sohail_7000@... thanks.


            ________________________________
            From: KimH <kahether@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 8:00 AM
            Subject: [Marbling] Sigh



            I just finished my first attempt, alone, at marbling. I didn't have great success, but it wasn't a complete failure either. I have some comments and questions.

            I mixed the alum according to instructions - 2 Tablespoons per pint hot water. I let that cool and then sponged (wet but not soaking) with overlapping strokes onto Arches Textwove. I laid all papers in the same direction between two press boards while they dried.

            The carrageenan was also mixed according to instructions. Two tablespoons per gallon, mixed in batches by blender. I left the carrageenan to sit overnight.

            The paint - horrible results. I thinned acrylic, with distilled water, to a consistency of thin cream - or milk. It didn't float on the carrageenan, so I added more water. That didn't work, so I added some photo-flo. That didn't help either. I didn't know if I should keep adding water or photo-flo until the paint floated on the surface. I ended up using some acrylics that were in a small marbling kit with very mixed results. The other paints never floated or spread on the surface.

            Also, the alum did not seem to take on the paper. I don't know why. Most of my color washed away when I rinsed the marbled paper.

            My carrageenan ended up badly contaminated and I gave up after 3 tries. I still have some clean carrageenan, and I thought I would experiment a little more tomorrow with the acrylics - to see if I can find a good mixture to float. Is there a good/best mixture (recipe) for acrylic paints? Would it be better to try oils?

            ANY COMMENTS WELCOME!




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

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          • KimH
            Thank you for your comments, Iris. I am thinking that I did not let the paper with alum dry all the way out. I live in Colorado, so rarely is humidity a
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 31, 2012
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              Thank you for your comments, Iris. I am thinking that I did not let the paper with alum dry all the way out. I live in Colorado, so rarely is humidity a problem. I'm thinking I may have been to impatient and didn't wait till the paper was completely dry - it was a little soft when I was working with it.

              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:
              >
              > First of all, I find it better to line dry the alumed papers, THEN stack them and make sure the room is 50% humidity or less. They should keep indefinitely (mine have kept for years) PROVIDED the paper is suitable for marbling. Most paper is not, Try some Unbuffered Bond from TALAS talasonline.com. That paper works. Line dry it, roll out any curls when dry, stack it for a few days at least.
              >
              > I have no explanation why your paint won't float, try a different paint perhaps. Did you skim the size before each laying of the color? You need to do that, if not, the paint could possibly sink.
              >
              > Iris Nevins
              > www.marblingpaper.com
            • KimH
              Thank you for your comments, Nancy. I think I will try adding a little more carrageenan next time - it may help with the paints as well. I am in Colorado,
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 31, 2012
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                Thank you for your comments, Nancy. I think I will try adding a little more carrageenan next time - it may help with the paints as well.
                I am in Colorado, unfortunately not close enough to attend. Thanks for the class suggestions.

                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Akerly <nakerly@...> wrote:
                >
                > Kim, I have had consistent success with my marbling, but do almost the same things you do. I use two Tbsp plus two tsp of Carrageenan per gallon of water, and use Galen Berry's wonderful paints, which I order from his MarbleArt site. I use about a teaspoon of alum per cup of water, not necessarily warm, and let the papers dry before I stack them. I overlap the strokes in one direction, then repeat in the opposite direction, with a wet sponge. Don't know if these differences are the answer for you. If you are anywhere near Northern Wisconsin I have a Marbling Intensive class in late January at Peninsula Art School in Fish Creek. Or I would highly recommend a class with Galen Berry, who teaches all over the country, or with Pat K. Thomas of Seen My Marbles?, who teaches at John.C Campbell Folk School in North Carolina, among other places.
                > Best wishes for the next time. It's well worth persevering!
                > Nancy Akerly
                >
                > Sent from my iPad
                > Liberty Grove Paper Arts
                > http://www.libertygrovepaperarts.com
              • KimH
                Thank you for the suggestion Sohail! I m willing to try that - nothing was working yesterday, more water OR more photo-flo.
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 31, 2012
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                  Thank you for the suggestion Sohail! I'm willing to try that - nothing was working yesterday, more water OR more photo-flo.

                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Sohail Akhtar <sohail_7000@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > hi. i m sohail sohail from karachi pakistan.  for floating color u can add any dishwasing detergin in color few drops it will flow better. use it then email me.  sohail_7000@... thanks.
                  >
                  >
                • Mary Shilman
                  Kim, you didn t mention adding oxgall to your colors in your first email.   Not only is the oxgall involved in floating the colors, it is the oxgall that
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 31, 2012
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                    Kim, you didn't mention adding oxgall to your colors in your first email.   Not only is the oxgall involved in floating the colors, it is the oxgall that causes the color to adhere to the alum on the paper.  I'm not sure that having the papers totally dry is essential.
                    Good luck,
                    Mary


                    ________________________________
                    From: KimH <kahether@...>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 5:28 PM
                    Subject: [Marbling] Re: Sigh


                     
                    Thank you for your comments, Iris. I am thinking that I did not let the paper with alum dry all the way out. I live in Colorado, so rarely is humidity a problem. I'm thinking I may have been to impatient and didn't wait till the paper was completely dry - it was a little soft when I was working with it.

                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > First of all, I find it better to line dry the alumed papers, THEN stack them and make sure the room is 50% humidity or less. They should keep indefinitely (mine have kept for years) PROVIDED the paper is suitable for marbling. Most paper is not, Try some Unbuffered Bond from TALAS talasonline.com. That paper works. Line dry it, roll out any curls when dry, stack it for a few days at least.
                    >
                    > I have no explanation why your paint won't float, try a different paint perhaps. Did you skim the size before each laying of the color? You need to do that, if not, the paint could possibly sink.
                    >
                    > Iris Nevins
                    > www.marblingpaper.com




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • anthonianthonianthoni
                    Careful with photographic wetting agents--- The last time I used them ( over a year ago, with watercolours) the colours failed to expand ,when added, until you
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 31, 2012
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                      Careful with photographic wetting agents--- The last time I used them ( over a year ago, with watercolours) the colours failed to expand ,when added, until you added a few more drops.... then POOF ! the colours expanded like mad, so much so that they obliterated everything in the process - ( but on hindsight, I think it was poor quality colours thatt did this)

                      With regards to soap, It is somewhat of a tricky issue. ( I used a sollution of cheap bar soap, again with watercolours) The soap tends to make the colours expand much, much more than gall would , which may be a bit of a problem. Furthermore, of you leave it for a few days, thecolours tend to decompose, into a stringy mass
                      But always remember, fortune favours the bold!
                      AL
                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "KimH" <kahether@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thank you for the suggestion Sohail! I'm willing to try that - nothing was working yesterday, more water OR more photo-flo.
                      >
                      > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Sohail Akhtar <sohail_7000@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > hi. i m sohail sohail from karachi pakistan.  for floating color u can add any dishwasing detergin in color few drops it will flow better. use it then email me.  sohail_7000@ thanks.
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • irisnevins
                      Usually if you work with damp paper, and many prefer to, it is best to use the paper up quickly. The times I work damp, I ll alum say 20 or so, marble them,
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 31, 2012
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                        Usually if you work with damp paper, and many prefer to, it is best to use the paper up quickly. The times I work damp, I'll alum say 20 or so, marble them, then alum again. Some people can put them damp into a plastic bag and they are good the next morning, I never had luck with that. I really hate to alum while I marble, so alum days ahead and line dry fully. They will keep this way for many years if conditions are right.

                        Iris Nevins
                        www.marblingpaper.com


                        On 12/31/12, KimH<kahether@...> wrote:

                        Thank you for your comments, Iris. I am thinking that I did not let the paper with alum dry all the way out. I live in Colorado, so rarely is humidity a problem. I'm thinking I may have been to impatient and didn't wait till the paper was completely dry - it was a little soft when I was working with it.

                        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > First of all, I find it better to line dry the alumed papers, THEN stack them and make sure the room is 50% humidity or less. They should keep indefinitely (mine have kept for years) PROVIDED the paper is suitable for marbling. Most paper is not, Try some Unbuffered Bond from TALAS talasonline.com. That paper works. Line dry it, roll out any curls when dry, stack it for a few days at least.
                        >
                        > I have no explanation why your paint won't float, try a different paint perhaps. Did you skim the size before each laying of the color? You need to do that, if not, the paint could possibly sink.
                        >
                        > Iris Nevins
                        > www.marblingpaper.com




                        ------------------------------------

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                      • irisnevins
                        No dry paper is not essential, I just find it simpler to alum ahead and work dry. Are you using acrylic or watercolor? If watercolor, yes you need ox-gall,
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 31, 2012
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                          No dry paper is not essential, I just find it simpler to alum ahead and work dry. Are you using acrylic or watercolor? If watercolor, yes you need ox-gall, but not the weak stuff in an art store. You need to order from a marbling supplier. I have it, so do a few others. If acrylic, in my experience ox gall has little to no effect on them, you need Photo Flo which I dilute since it is very strong.

                          Iris Nevins
                          www.marblingpaper.com


                          On 12/31/12, Mary Shilman<maryshilman@...> wrote:

                          Kim, you didn't mention adding oxgall to your colors in your first email. � Not only is the oxgall involved in floating the colors, it is the oxgall that causes the color to adhere to the alum on the paper. � I'm not sure that having the papers totally dry is essential.
                          Good luck,
                          Mary


                          ________________________________
                          From: KimH <kahether@...>
                          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 5:28 PM
                          Subject: [Marbling] Re: Sigh



                          Thank you for your comments, Iris. I am thinking that I did not let the paper with alum dry all the way out. I live in Colorado, so rarely is humidity a problem. I'm thinking I may have been to impatient and didn't wait till the paper was completely dry - it was a little soft when I was working with it.

                          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > First of all, I find it better to line dry the alumed papers, THEN stack them and make sure the room is 50% humidity or less. They should keep indefinitely (mine have kept for years) PROVIDED the paper is suitable for marbling. Most paper is not, Try some Unbuffered Bond from TALAS talasonline.com. That paper works. Line dry it, roll out any curls when dry, stack it for a few days at least.
                          >
                          > I have no explanation why your paint won't float, try a different paint perhaps. Did you skim the size before each laying of the color? You need to do that, if not, the paint could possibly sink.
                          >
                          > Iris Nevins
                          > www.marblingpaper.com




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • irisnevins
                          Anthony, this is why I recommend to dilute the PhotoFlo or soap (PhotoFlo preferred, soap in an emergency!) in water, THEN use with a dropped as you would the
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 31, 2012
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                            Anthony, this is why I recommend to dilute the PhotoFlo or soap (PhotoFlo preferred, soap in an emergency!) in water, THEN use with a dropped as you would the ox gall. You have more control over it this way.

                            Iris Nevins
                            www.marblingpaper.com



                            On 12/31/12, anthonianthonianthoni<anthonianthonianthoni@...> wrote:

                            Careful with photographic wetting agents--- The last time I used them ( over a year ago, with watercolours) the colours failed to expand ,when added, until you added a few more drops.... then POOF ! the colours expanded like mad, so much so that they obliterated everything in the process - ( but on hindsight, I think it was poor quality colours thatt did this)

                            With regards to soap, It is somewhat of a tricky issue. ( I used a sollution of cheap bar soap, again with watercolours) The soap tends to make the colours expand much, much more than gall would , which may be a bit of a problem. Furthermore, of you leave it for a few days, thecolours tend to decompose, into a stringy mass
                            But always remember, fortune favours the bold!
                            AL
                            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "KimH" <kahether@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thank you for the suggestion Sohail! I'm willing to try that - nothing was working yesterday, more water OR more photo-flo.
                            >
                            > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Sohail Akhtar <sohail_7000@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > hi. i m sohail sohail from karachi pakistan. � for floating color u can add any dishwasing detergin in color few drops it will flow better. use it then email me. � sohail_7000@ thanks.
                            > >
                            > >
                            >




                            ------------------------------------

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                          • Marared9
                            Iris, Ah that all emergencies would be the type that can be resolved with soap ;-) I do love marblers. Suzanne
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 3, 2013
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                              Iris,
                              Ah that all "emergencies" would be the type that can be resolved with soap ;-) I do love marblers.
                              Suzanne

                              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins wrote:
                              >
                              > Anthony, this is why I recommend to dilute the PhotoFlo or soap (PhotoFlo preferred, soap in an emergency!) in water, THEN use with a dropped as you would the ox gall. You have more control over it this way.
                              >
                              > Iris Nevins
                              > www.marblingpaper.com
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