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Re: More Bubbles

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  • Milena Hughes
    I have been follwing the bubbles messages with interest. The same thing happen when marbling on various species of wood. It is definitely caused by the
    Message 1 of 2 , Aug 25, 2001
      I have been follwing the "bubbles" messages with interest.
      The same thing happen when marbling on various species of wood.
      It is definitely caused by the uneven swelling of fibers! -Milena

      sixshort@... wrote:

      > -Dear Tom, Thanks for the ongoing thoughts - Jake Benson in Message
      > 684 also mentioned that the sizing of the Indian papers might be
      > causing the air to be trapped, with the fibers swelling unevenly when
      > wet and trapping air between them. I spoke to a person who saw
      > these papers being made. He told me they were made from old cotton t-
      > shirt fibers, and he thought they were internally sized. If this is
      > so, there would not be an uneven distribution of external sizing.
      > Yes, I soaked the papers to try and remove the bubbles - fairly
      > successfully, as many came up. I agree with you that the papers are
      > almost indestructible. They also have a silken texture, and are so
      > beautiful to work with that I would like to persevere with them. I
      > can't achieve the crisp lines that a flat calendared paper allows,
      > but the subtle, soft lines on the Indian paper are worth the
      > effort. The Buko Undo suminagashi inks were much more successful on
      > the Indian paper than watercolour paints. Let me know how you get
      > on with the present marbling session. Only today Vi Wilson, my
      > wonderful marbling teacher, mentioned that I might like to look at
      > her copy of "The World's Worst Marbled Papers" - good to compare it
      > with our experiences of Indian paper!- Best regards, Joan Ajala
      > Marbling@y..., leech541@a... wrote:
      > > Dear Joan, This is getting interesting. Now i remember having a
      > similar
      > > problem years ago when i used the Indian handmades. I think i must
      > not be
      > > nearly as persistent as you. I just put them aside and avoided
      > them, thinking
      > > the problem was with the me. Too bad, because they are such a good
      > buy.
      > > Anyway, i'm going to be doing some marbling today and will give
      > them a try.
      > >
      > > I have some thoughts about what the problem might be though. First,
      > i'm
      > > curious about why you submerge the paper in the first place. Is
      > that to get
      > > the bubbles out? When I alum i use a spray bottle and a sponge.
      > Maybe 2 or
      > > even 3 applications of alum, sponged in well would work (?). I
      > think a long
      > > soak in water (water being the universal solvent) might be worth a
      > try. Like
      > > at least overnight, as if you were soaking it for etching, and as
      > long as a
      > > couple of days, with a rinse once in while thrown in for good
      > measure. The
      > > Indian papers i've used for printmaking are tough as can be, and
      > you could
      > > probably hit them with a fire hose and they would stay in one piece.
      > >
      > > Anyway, after thoroughly soaking them you would want to dry them
      > flat before
      > > aluming and marbling. And then try to marble with them while still
      > damp and
      > > limp from the aluming. Once they have dried out you would probably
      > have to
      > > really wrestle with them.
      > >
      > > My guess as to the source of the problem is that it comes from the
      > sizing. It
      > > is probably applied to the various papers you mentioned in
      > different ways,
      > > but if it is a surface sizing it could easily have trapped air in
      > the fibers.
      > > Less likely would be bleach or caustic soda, because they would
      > have been
      > > diluted and evenly distributed throughout the sheet. If the
      > chemical used as
      > > internal sizing is applied directly to the sheet, as a surface
      > size, it
      > > would be extremely tough and probably spotty.
      > >
      > > This does bring to mind the wonderful and no doubt funniest book
      > ever
      > > written about marbling - Henry Morris' "The World's Worst Marbled
      > Papers." It
      > > used Indian handmade papers, marbled with the worst collection of
      > bubbles,
      > > spots, dust and other flaws imaginable. It never occured to me
      > that some of
      > > the flaws could be attributed to the paper, but i'll bet that is
      > the case.
      > >
      > > Anyway, that's all for now. I'll let you know what happens with my
      > marbling
      > > today. tom
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • sixshort@yahoo.com.au
      --Hi Milena- Interesting to hear of fibers swelling unevenly in different timbers - is there a rule of thumb in this, or does each piece have to be tested
      Message 2 of 2 , Aug 28, 2001
        --Hi Milena- Interesting to hear of fibers swelling unevenly in
        different timbers - is there a rule of thumb in this, or does each
        piece have to be tested individually? And does a light coat of a
        clear lacquer, lightly sanded, stop the bubbling in wood? I have
        had only limited success with marbling wood and other solid
        objects.Joan Ajala In Marbling@y..., Milena Hughes <milena@i...>
        wrote:
        > I have been follwing the "bubbles" messages with interest.
        > The same thing happen when marbling on various species of wood.
        > It is definitely caused by the uneven swelling of fibers! -Milena
        >
        > sixshort@y... wrote:
        >
        > > -Dear Tom, Thanks for the ongoing thoughts - Jake Benson in
        Message
        > > 684 also mentioned that the sizing of the Indian papers might be
        > > causing the air to be trapped, with the fibers swelling unevenly
        when
        > > wet and trapping air between them. I spoke to a person who saw
        > > these papers being made. He told me they were made from old
        cotton t-
        > > shirt fibers, and he thought they were internally sized. If this
        is
        > > so, there would not be an uneven distribution of external sizing.
        > > Yes, I soaked the papers to try and remove the bubbles - fairly
        > > successfully, as many came up. I agree with you that the papers
        are
        > > almost indestructible. They also have a silken texture, and are
        so
        > > beautiful to work with that I would like to persevere with them.
        I
        > > can't achieve the crisp lines that a flat calendared paper allows,
        > > but the subtle, soft lines on the Indian paper are worth the
        > > effort. The Buko Undo suminagashi inks were much more successful
        on
        > > the Indian paper than watercolour paints. Let me know how you
        get
        > > on with the present marbling session. Only today Vi Wilson, my
        > > wonderful marbling teacher, mentioned that I might like to look at
        > > her copy of "The World's Worst Marbled Papers" - good to compare
        it
        > > with our experiences of Indian paper!- Best regards, Joan Ajala
        > > Marbling@y..., leech541@a... wrote:
        > > > Dear Joan, This is getting interesting. Now i remember having a
        > > similar
        > > > problem years ago when i used the Indian handmades. I think i
        must
        > > not be
        > > > nearly as persistent as you. I just put them aside and avoided
        > > them, thinking
        > > > the problem was with the me. Too bad, because they are such a
        good
        > > buy.
        > > > Anyway, i'm going to be doing some marbling today and will give
        > > them a try.
        > > >
        > > > I have some thoughts about what the problem might be though.
        First,
        > > i'm
        > > > curious about why you submerge the paper in the first place. Is
        > > that to get
        > > > the bubbles out? When I alum i use a spray bottle and a sponge.
        > > Maybe 2 or
        > > > even 3 applications of alum, sponged in well would work (?). I
        > > think a long
        > > > soak in water (water being the universal solvent) might be
        worth a
        > > try. Like
        > > > at least overnight, as if you were soaking it for etching, and
        as
        > > long as a
        > > > couple of days, with a rinse once in while thrown in for good
        > > measure. The
        > > > Indian papers i've used for printmaking are tough as can be, and
        > > you could
        > > > probably hit them with a fire hose and they would stay in one
        piece.
        > > >
        > > > Anyway, after thoroughly soaking them you would want to dry them
        > > flat before
        > > > aluming and marbling. And then try to marble with them while
        still
        > > damp and
        > > > limp from the aluming. Once they have dried out you would
        probably
        > > have to
        > > > really wrestle with them.
        > > >
        > > > My guess as to the source of the problem is that it comes from
        the
        > > sizing. It
        > > > is probably applied to the various papers you mentioned in
        > > different ways,
        > > > but if it is a surface sizing it could easily have trapped air
        in
        > > the fibers.
        > > > Less likely would be bleach or caustic soda, because they would
        > > have been
        > > > diluted and evenly distributed throughout the sheet. If the
        > > chemical used as
        > > > internal sizing is applied directly to the sheet, as a surface
        > > size, it
        > > > would be extremely tough and probably spotty.
        > > >
        > > > This does bring to mind the wonderful and no doubt funniest
        book
        > > ever
        > > > written about marbling - Henry Morris' "The World's Worst
        Marbled
        > > Papers." It
        > > > used Indian handmade papers, marbled with the worst collection
        of
        > > bubbles,
        > > > spots, dust and other flaws imaginable. It never occured to me
        > > that some of
        > > > the flaws could be attributed to the paper, but i'll bet that
        is
        > > the case.
        > > >
        > > > Anyway, that's all for now. I'll let you know what happens with
        my
        > > marbling
        > > > today. tom
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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