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  • Zuhal
    Hi everyone, I m curious about marbling and am considering to give it a go. I live in Australia. What do you use to preserve the water? I ve been told by a
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 3, 2012
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      Hi everyone,

      I'm curious about marbling and am considering to give it a go. I live in Australia.

      What do you use to preserve the water? I've been told by a teacher in Turkey to use formaldehyde but I'm thinking that's going to be difficult to get here. The oxgall that I have already has formaledyhde in it to preserve it. I've been reading plenty, video's etc but not sure what to use. Ideally would like to use the water for a while which is the reason for why I'd like to find a suitable preservative.

      Are there any contacts here in Australia - I am in Sydney.

      Thank you,
      Zuhal

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • George Reynolds
      Well just remember that the water solution gets more and more filled with paint as you go so you would not want to preserve it for to long. Plus you lose some
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 4, 2012
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        Well just remember that the water solution gets more and more filled with paint as you go so you would not want to preserve it for to long. Plus you lose some every time you lift off the paper or fabric plus you have evaporation ... I find if its done in a cool place like 60F it lasts or 6 or 7 days anyway.
        George
      • Zuhal
        Oh ok, so its not something I *must* use - its getting hot here in Sydney so I m thinking of doing it early mornings for now. I ve been told that its not a
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 4, 2012
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          Oh ok, so its not something I *must* use - its getting hot here in Sydney so I'm thinking of doing it early mornings for now. I've been told that its not a good idea to do it in the heat. I thought it would be a good idea to use it as I just want to be able to get started and practise often. Thank you George.


          ________________________________
          From: George Reynolds <georger1998@...>
          To: "Marbling@yahoogroups.com" <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, 5 December 2012 6:18 AM
          Subject: [Marbling] Re: New member question


           
          Well just remember that the water solution gets more and more filled with paint as you go so you would not want to preserve it for to long. Plus you lose some every time you lift off the paper or fabric plus you have evaporation ... I find if its done in a cool place like 60F it lasts or 6 or 7 days anyway.
          George


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • George Reynolds
          You know last summer I did a demo at a gallery in western mass and it was about 95 degrees. As the day went on the paint started doing some strange things to
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 5, 2012
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            You know last summer I did a demo at a gallery in western mass and it was about 95 degrees. As the day went on the paint started doing some strange things to the point that toward the end the paint started disintegrating for lack of a better term. It actually could be interesting if you catch it at the right moment. Good luck!
            George
          • Regina St.John
            Daniel St. John Regina St John Chena River Marblers 70 Justice Drive Amherst, MA 01002 Phone/fax (413) 253-2835 Www.chenarivermarbl Zuhal, Regarding your
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 5, 2012
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              Daniel St. John
              Regina St John
              Chena River Marblers
              70 Justice Drive
              Amherst, MA 01002
              Phone/fax (413) 253-2835
              Www.chenarivermarbl

              Zuhal,

              Regarding your question on how to extend the working life of the carragheen
              marbling bath, I would like to share some our experience with you. It is
              true that dry carragheen powder is becoming increasingly expensive and it
              economical to attempt to make it last longer. We, however, have never
              resorted to adding preservatives to the bath. Regarding health concerns
              having to do with formalin (formaldehyde) you can refer to the EPA studies
              on line. We visited marbling studios in Florence, Italy in August and were
              told that the Summer months are when their marblers take their vacations to
              avoid dealing with the very problems you are concerned with in Australia.
              We teach annually in Virginia where it can be quite hot and humid. With 10
              students and 10 tanks each holding as much as 2.5 gallons of bath and the
              fact that each paper made as well as the cleaning swipes with newspaper
              requires continual addition of new bath; it is desirable to get a little
              more time out of the bath. Our answer is to make sufficient bath the night
              before and make a thicker bath than is called for in most recipes. We buy 5
              and 10 pound bags of ice, wrap them in black plastic bags and leave them in
              the large plastic container. If the ice melts overnight, additional bags of
              ice can be added and left through the day. If you are just working with one
              3 gallon tank, it would not be hard to empty the contents of the tank at the
              end of the day and place the bath in a refrigerator over night. We also
              marble large quantities of silk in a 10 foot tank holding 35-40 gallons of
              bath. If it is hot, I place bags of ice around in the tank when we are
              not marbling as well as in our reserve tanks (usually 2 thirty gallon
              containers. Some people use methyl cell to get longer use of a bath. We
              think that carrageen gives the most control of patterns and are willing to
              pay the price. We never make a carragheen bath until we are ready to marble
              continually without interruption until the bath rots.

              For one of the most authoritative answers to your question, it would be
              useful to find a copy of "Marbled Paper: "It's History, Techniques, and
              Patterns". by Richard J. Wolfe. Especially look at Pages 155 and 156.

              I would like to offer more of a philosophical comment on this issue of
              preserving a marbling bath because it may be undesirable to worry to much
              about extending the life of the bath beyond a day or two. Carragheen is a
              disaccharide, an organic molecule consisting of two long chains. It is a
              form of sugar produced by the red algae plant as stored food. It is a
              natural food for bacteria which are constantly consuming it and breaking it
              down just as is true of milk. It is natural for the viscosity and the
              surface tension to change in the course of its use. Artistically, the
              marbler can learn to use the various states of the bath to obtain different
              types of patterns. An example of this is when we are able to make finer
              combed patterns such as nonpareil derivative ones when the bath is more
              viscous and the colors on the surface are less mobile. When the bath is
              looser we might choose to work with veined patterns. If you read the
              descriptions of 19th century marblers such as Wollnough, some very excellent
              patterns are achieved when the bath is old and well used. I have found that
              The Tiger Eye pattern works best in a looser bath.

              Dan





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • George Reynolds
              Dan you must post more often to this group!! And to everyone in the group if you get a chance to take a class with Regina and Dan go for it. George
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 10, 2012
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                Dan you must post more often to this group!! And to everyone in the group if you get a chance to take a class with Regina and Dan go for it.
                George
              • Zuhal
                I wanted to thank you for this lovely post - the approach you have is far more helpful than you realise. It truly is wonderful - I believe the entire process
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 30, 2012
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                  I wanted to thank you for this lovely post - the approach you have is far more helpful than you realise. It truly is wonderful - I believe the entire process of marbling is fascinating and I think that a philosophical approach helps produce a healthy mind and attitude towards this work. I do think that the Ottoman Turks used it as a source of healing for many people in their time. 

                  Thanks again,
                  Zuhal

                  ________________________________
                  From: Regina St.John <Regstjohn@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, 6 December 2012 12:58 PM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: New member question


                   
                  Daniel St. John
                  Regina St John
                  Chena River Marblers
                  70 Justice Drive
                  Amherst, MA 01002
                  Phone/fax (413) 253-2835
                  Www.chenarivermarbl

                  Zuhal,

                  Regarding your question on how to extend the working life of the carragheen
                  marbling bath, I would like to share some our experience with you. It is
                  true that dry carragheen powder is becoming increasingly expensive and it
                  economical to attempt to make it last longer. We, however, have never
                  resorted to adding preservatives to the bath. Regarding health concerns
                  having to do with formalin (formaldehyde) you can refer to the EPA studies
                  on line. We visited marbling studios in Florence, Italy in August and were
                  told that the Summer months are when their marblers take their vacations to
                  avoid dealing with the very problems you are concerned with in Australia.
                  We teach annually in Virginia where it can be quite hot and humid. With 10
                  students and 10 tanks each holding as much as 2.5 gallons of bath and the
                  fact that each paper made as well as the cleaning swipes with newspaper
                  requires continual addition of new bath; it is desirable to get a little
                  more time out of the bath. Our answer is to make sufficient bath the night
                  before and make a thicker bath than is called for in most recipes. We buy 5
                  and 10 pound bags of ice, wrap them in black plastic bags and leave them in
                  the large plastic container. If the ice melts overnight, additional bags of
                  ice can be added and left through the day. If you are just working with one
                  3 gallon tank, it would not be hard to empty the contents of the tank at the
                  end of the day and place the bath in a refrigerator over night. We also
                  marble large quantities of silk in a 10 foot tank holding 35-40 gallons of
                  bath. If it is hot, I place bags of ice around in the tank when we are
                  not marbling as well as in our reserve tanks (usually 2 thirty gallon
                  containers. Some people use methyl cell to get longer use of a bath. We
                  think that carrageen gives the most control of patterns and are willing to
                  pay the price. We never make a carragheen bath until we are ready to marble
                  continually without interruption until the bath rots.

                  For one of the most authoritative answers to your question, it would be
                  useful to find a copy of "Marbled Paper: "It's History, Techniques, and
                  Patterns". by Richard J. Wolfe. Especially look at Pages 155 and 156.

                  I would like to offer more of a philosophical comment on this issue of
                  preserving a marbling bath because it may be undesirable to worry to much
                  about extending the life of the bath beyond a day or two. Carragheen is a
                  disaccharide, an organic molecule consisting of two long chains. It is a
                  form of sugar produced by the red algae plant as stored food. It is a
                  natural food for bacteria which are constantly consuming it and breaking it
                  down just as is true of milk. It is natural for the viscosity and the
                  surface tension to change in the course of its use. Artistically, the
                  marbler can learn to use the various states of the bath to obtain different
                  types of patterns. An example of this is when we are able to make finer
                  combed patterns such as nonpareil derivative ones when the bath is more
                  viscous and the colors on the surface are less mobile. When the bath is
                  looser we might choose to work with veined patterns. If you read the
                  descriptions of 19th century marblers such as Wollnough, some very excellent
                  patterns are achieved when the bath is old and well used. I have found that
                  The Tiger Eye pattern works best in a looser bath.

                  Dan

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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