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New to marbling with a few questions

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  • xcskimom
    Hi - I just spent the morning marbling paper with children - a great experiment with many beautiful results. We used a size made with carrageenan, and
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 26, 2012
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      Hi - I just spent the morning marbling paper with children - a great experiment with many beautiful results.

      We used a size made with carrageenan, and suminagashi paints that came in a kit. A couple of the colors sank, a couple spread too much...I know there are ways of dealing with those but I don't know much about them - and didn't have any dispersant or whatever the stuff is that you add to make the color spread more slowly. Oddly, the black ink did something really strange - it was the only color that didn't stick to the paper - instead it would just run off with the excess size, making a mess.

      My main question is about rinsing the size - I tried using a tray and just swishing the paper back and forth in it, but the size wasn't rinsing off. Putting it under a gentle stream of water in the sink was disastrous - which I knew would happen. Now I'm just letting everything dry on screens with the size still on it. Should I rinse after the paper dries, or not at all? Is there a better way I haven't found?

      The other question - we were using strips of news paper to clean the size, with mixed results. There was almost always a residue of paint that just would not come off. And now that we're done, there is quite a bit in the pans that I don't know what to do about - will it sink and separate if I just leave it? I tried using extra papers just to absorb it all but it didn't really work. All the ink that sank is still there, too, and I'd like to reuse the size but in the meantime I thought I'd pour it out of the pans into gallon containers - but I'd prefer to only keep the clean stuff and not the old inks. Any tips and hints are greatly appreciated.

      Thanks!
      -Amanda
    • carylhanc@aol.com
      Hi, Amanda, Welcome to the wonderful and frustrating world of marbling! The suminagashi inks, from my experience work much better on plain water, not the
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 26, 2012
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        Hi, Amanda,


        Welcome to the wonderful and frustrating world of marbling! The suminagashi inks, from my experience work much better on plain water, not the carageenan.I sometimes put a small bit of methylcellulose in the water with the inks. They might sink if you don't work fast enough, but then it is a simple matter to dump out the water in the tray and start fresh. I think that might have been the issue with the black as well.


        Diane Maurer is very accomplished with the sumi inks (and sells them as well) and has told me that she does not alum her silk scarves when doing suminagashi - I don't know if she pretreats her papers, but I alum both papers and scarves when using the inks. That also may have been the issue with the black rinsing down the drain - no alum, although I believe that the kit instructions do not include that information either.


        As for saving the size, if you allow the inks to settle, then use a turkey baster to "suck from the top" you might be able to salvage some of the clearer size. In any event the size should still work for floating marbling paints, and not the inks. If it is really gunky, it will be hard to see what pattern you are laying down. In any event the life of the carageenan is relatively short; it will soon start to smell fishy or moldy and get then thin and runny, probably with the week.


        I hope this is helpful!


        Caryl Hancock, indianapolis





        -----Original Message-----
        From: xcskimom <xcskimom@...>
        To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, Oct 26, 2012 2:19 pm
        Subject: [Marbling] New to marbling with a few questions





        Hi - I just spent the morning marbling paper with children - a great experiment with many beautiful results.

        We used a size made with carrageenan, and suminagashi paints that came in a kit. A couple of the colors sank, a couple spread too much...I know there are ways of dealing with those but I don't know much about them - and didn't have any dispersant or whatever the stuff is that you add to make the color spread more slowly. Oddly, the black ink did something really strange - it was the only color that didn't stick to the paper - instead it would just run off with the excess size, making a mess.

        My main question is about rinsing the size - I tried using a tray and just swishing the paper back and forth in it, but the size wasn't rinsing off. Putting it under a gentle stream of water in the sink was disastrous - which I knew would happen. Now I'm just letting everything dry on screens with the size still on it. Should I rinse after the paper dries, or not at all? Is there a better way I haven't found?

        The other question - we were using strips of news paper to clean the size, with mixed results. There was almost always a residue of paint that just would not come off. And now that we're done, there is quite a bit in the pans that I don't know what to do about - will it sink and separate if I just leave it? I tried using extra papers just to absorb it all but it didn't really work. All the ink that sank is still there, too, and I'd like to reuse the size but in the meantime I thought I'd pour it out of the pans into gallon containers - but I'd prefer to only keep the clean stuff and not the old inks. Any tips and hints are greatly appreciated.

        Thanks!
        -Amanda










        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • xcskimom
        Thank you for all the helpful information, Caryl! I am really amazed that plain water could work - I ll give that a try. I m also going to try with some of
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 26, 2012
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          Thank you for all the helpful information, Caryl! I am really amazed that plain water could work - I'll give that a try. I'm also going to try with some of our acrylic paint, watered down. Of course, just how much water to use will be an interesting experiment. All part of the learning process, I suppose.

          The size is really quite murky at this point - but we did a lot of marbling today. Maybe it's just beyond help. I think working with a white tray would help a lot - I used a foil "pasta" pan and a regular metal baking pan, and you could barely see after a while. But for the kids, that was part of the fun. I myself would like to be able to see the design as I work!

          Our library has no books on marbling techniques, which is unfortunate as I have been searching for instructions to make the various designs - such as the nonpareil and peacock ones. An internet search hasn't turned up much, which is rather surprising. I have found a million sites with beautiful samples, however! If there are any good pages, feel free to let me know!

          Thanks again!
          Amanda


          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, carylhanc@... wrote:
          >
          > Hi, Amanda,
          >
          >
          > Welcome to the wonderful and frustrating world of marbling! The suminagashi inks, from my experience work much better on plain water, not the carageenan.I sometimes put a small bit of methylcellulose in the water with the inks. They might sink if you don't work fast enough, but then it is a simple matter to dump out the water in the tray and start fresh. I think that might have been the issue with the black as well.
          >
          >
          > Diane Maurer is very accomplished with the sumi inks (and sells them as well) and has told me that she does not alum her silk scarves when doing suminagashi - I don't know if she pretreats her papers, but I alum both papers and scarves when using the inks. That also may have been the issue with the black rinsing down the drain - no alum, although I believe that the kit instructions do not include that information either.
          >
          >
          > As for saving the size, if you allow the inks to settle, then use a turkey baster to "suck from the top" you might be able to salvage some of the clearer size. In any event the size should still work for floating marbling paints, and not the inks. If it is really gunky, it will be hard to see what pattern you are laying down. In any event the life of the carageenan is relatively short; it will soon start to smell fishy or moldy and get then thin and runny, probably with the week.
          >
          >
          > I hope this is helpful!
          >
          >
          > Caryl Hancock, indianapolis
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: xcskimom <xcskimom@...>
          > To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Fri, Oct 26, 2012 2:19 pm
          > Subject: [Marbling] New to marbling with a few questions
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi - I just spent the morning marbling paper with children - a great experiment with many beautiful results.
          >
          > We used a size made with carrageenan, and suminagashi paints that came in a kit. A couple of the colors sank, a couple spread too much...I know there are ways of dealing with those but I don't know much about them - and didn't have any dispersant or whatever the stuff is that you add to make the color spread more slowly. Oddly, the black ink did something really strange - it was the only color that didn't stick to the paper - instead it would just run off with the excess size, making a mess.
          >
          > My main question is about rinsing the size - I tried using a tray and just swishing the paper back and forth in it, but the size wasn't rinsing off. Putting it under a gentle stream of water in the sink was disastrous - which I knew would happen. Now I'm just letting everything dry on screens with the size still on it. Should I rinse after the paper dries, or not at all? Is there a better way I haven't found?
          >
          > The other question - we were using strips of news paper to clean the size, with mixed results. There was almost always a residue of paint that just would not come off. And now that we're done, there is quite a bit in the pans that I don't know what to do about - will it sink and separate if I just leave it? I tried using extra papers just to absorb it all but it didn't really work. All the ink that sank is still there, too, and I'd like to reuse the size but in the meantime I thought I'd pour it out of the pans into gallon containers - but I'd prefer to only keep the clean stuff and not the old inks. Any tips and hints are greatly appreciated.
          >
          > Thanks!
          > -Amanda
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • George Reynolds
          If you are doing suminagashi then plain water is the way to go although you might try an experiment with distilled water and see if make a difference. I think
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 27, 2012
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            If you are doing suminagashi then plain water is the way to go although you might try an experiment with distilled water and see if make a difference. I think the different results people report may have to do with how hard or soft the water is but I don't have any data to back this up.

            As for acrylics you will need a size and and something to help the paint float although not necessarily for every color. There are many options here but the ones I have tried that work for me are
            - Photoflo available from the web like Amazon or photo/darkroom supply stores.
            - Fabric Medium from Golden which I really like and is best for scarves.
            - Gel Medium also from Golden.

            In every case you need to mix any of these with water and mix until the consistency is like whole milk or even lighter. I find that letting the mixture sit for a day really helps to let all the air bibles dissipate. This makes for much better spreading.

            The most time consuming one is Photoflo to figure out since every color seems to require a different amount. I mix all the colors with water and let them sit for a day and then slowly add drops to each color and try it on the size until it behaves like I want. Note also even if a color does not sink by itself it may behave very differently when dropped on another color with more or less Photoflo. Yes it's a bit like juggling 10 balls at a time. Well ok it's not that hard but it does take time.

            The Mediums are much more consistent - I use 60 acrylic to 40 medium plus water until the consistency is what you want. Add a little water until it flows the way you want. The use of medium will affect the feel of fabric when you are done and does require thorough rinsing.

            Finally Galen Berry sells good supplies and in particular trays that provide an easy way to use a rinsing board. See his web site: www.marbleart.us

            George
          • xcskimom
            I tried the suminigashi with plain water and I really didn t like the results - too light! The colors were far more vibrant (those that worked) on the size.
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 5, 2012
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              I tried the suminigashi with plain water and I really didn't like the results - too light! The colors were far more vibrant (those that worked) on the size. Weird.

              We're having a lot of fun experimenting. I have decided that rinsing paper is basically a terrible idea, and I've just stood there and let as much as I could run off the paper and then just let it dry. No adverse effects. However, I can see this would not be a great strategy on fabric.

              Thanks for the tips! I will pick up some photo-flo one of these days.

              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, George Reynolds <georger1998@...> wrote:
              >
              > If you are doing suminagashi then plain water is the way to go although you might try an experiment with distilled water and see if make a difference. I think the different results people report may have to do with how hard or soft the water is but I don't have any data to back this up.
              >
              > As for acrylics you will need a size and and something to help the paint float although not necessarily for every color. There are many options here but the ones I have tried that work for me are
              > - Photoflo available from the web like Amazon or photo/darkroom supply stores.
              > - Fabric Medium from Golden which I really like and is best for scarves.
              > - Gel Medium also from Golden.
              >
              > In every case you need to mix any of these with water and mix until the consistency is like whole milk or even lighter. I find that letting the mixture sit for a day really helps to let all the air bibles dissipate. This makes for much better spreading.
              >
              > The most time consuming one is Photoflo to figure out since every color seems to require a different amount. I mix all the colors with water and let them sit for a day and then slowly add drops to each color and try it on the size until it behaves like I want. Note also even if a color does not sink by itself it may behave very differently when dropped on another color with more or less Photoflo. Yes it's a bit like juggling 10 balls at a time. Well ok it's not that hard but it does take time.
              >
              > The Mediums are much more consistent - I use 60 acrylic to 40 medium plus water until the consistency is what you want. Add a little water until it flows the way you want. The use of medium will affect the feel of fabric when you are done and does require thorough rinsing.
              >
              > Finally Galen Berry sells good supplies and in particular trays that provide an easy way to use a rinsing board. See his web site: www.marbleart.us
              >
              > George
              >
            • Sharon
              Regarding inks for Suminagashi (floating inks on water), I have the best, most vivid results with those formulated for the process by a Japanese family -- the
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 6, 2012
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                Regarding inks for Suminagashi (floating inks on water), I have the best, most vivid results with those formulated for the process by a Japanese family -- the Boku Undo inks that you can purchase online. Sumi ink gives a fantastic black and black India ink works well. Other types of inks give a paler result, but stick to those that are "waterproof" (with shellac in them.)

                I also use acrylic inks and Golden liquid acrylics in the Suminagashi technique. You can dilute them with water if needed, but I've found that acrylic medium (I use Golden's GAC100) works as a better dispersant for them than photo-flo. Test first since some colors are already active spreaders, and some, like white, don't work at all.

                In the past year, I've done five demos on Suminagashi, plus five workshops on the process in the North Texas area. So I've built up lots of experience trying different paints and papers. For a beginner, I recommend the extensive chapter on Suminagashi in Diane Maurer's Ultimate Marbling Handbook.

                Sharon

                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "xcskimom" <xcskimom@...> wrote:
                >
                > I tried the suminigashi with plain water and I really didn't like the results - too light! The colors were far more vibrant (those that worked) on the size. Weird.
                >
                > We're having a lot of fun experimenting. I have decided that rinsing paper is basically a terrible idea, and I've just stood there and let as much as I could run off the paper and then just let it dry. No adverse effects. However, I can see this would not be a great strategy on fabric.
                >
                > Thanks for the tips! I will pick up some photo-flo one of these days.
                >
                > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, George Reynolds <georger1998@> wrote:
                > >
                > > If you are doing suminagashi then plain water is the way to go although you might try an experiment with distilled water and see if make a difference. I think the different results people report may have to do with how hard or soft the water is but I don't have any data to back this up.
                > >
                > > As for acrylics you will need a size and and something to help the paint float although not necessarily for every color. There are many options here but the ones I have tried that work for me are
                > > - Photoflo available from the web like Amazon or photo/darkroom supply stores.
                > > - Fabric Medium from Golden which I really like and is best for scarves.
                > > - Gel Medium also from Golden.
                > >
                > > In every case you need to mix any of these with water and mix until the consistency is like whole milk or even lighter. I find that letting the mixture sit for a day really helps to let all the air bibles dissipate. This makes for much better spreading.
                > >
                > > The most time consuming one is Photoflo to figure out since every color seems to require a different amount. I mix all the colors with water and let them sit for a day and then slowly add drops to each color and try it on the size until it behaves like I want. Note also even if a color does not sink by itself it may behave very differently when dropped on another color with more or less Photoflo. Yes it's a bit like juggling 10 balls at a time. Well ok it's not that hard but it does take time.
                > >
                > > The Mediums are much more consistent - I use 60 acrylic to 40 medium plus water until the consistency is what you want. Add a little water until it flows the way you want. The use of medium will affect the feel of fabric when you are done and does require thorough rinsing.
                > >
                > > Finally Galen Berry sells good supplies and in particular trays that provide an easy way to use a rinsing board. See his web site: www.marbleart.us
                > >
                > > George
                > >
                >
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