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Re: bubbles

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  • sixshort@yahoo.com.au
    -Dear Tom, Thanks for the ongoing thoughts - Jake Benson in Message 684 also mentioned that the sizing of the Indian papers might be causing the air to be
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 25, 2001
      -Dear Tom, Thanks for the ongoing thoughts - Jake Benson in Message
      684 also mentioned that the sizing of the Indian papers might be
      causing the air to be trapped, with the fibers swelling unevenly when
      wet and trapping air between them. I spoke to a person who saw
      these papers being made. He told me they were made from old cotton t-
      shirt fibers, and he thought they were internally sized. If this is
      so, there would not be an uneven distribution of external sizing.
      Yes, I soaked the papers to try and remove the bubbles - fairly
      successfully, as many came up. I agree with you that the papers are
      almost indestructible. They also have a silken texture, and are so
      beautiful to work with that I would like to persevere with them. I
      can't achieve the crisp lines that a flat calendared paper allows,
      but the subtle, soft lines on the Indian paper are worth the
      effort. The Buko Undo suminagashi inks were much more successful on
      the Indian paper than watercolour paints. Let me know how you get
      on with the present marbling session. Only today Vi Wilson, my
      wonderful marbling teacher, mentioned that I might like to look at
      her copy of "The World's Worst Marbled Papers" - good to compare it
      with our experiences of Indian paper!- Best regards, Joan Ajala
      Marbling@y..., leech541@a... wrote:
      > Dear Joan, This is getting interesting. Now i remember having a
      similar
      > problem years ago when i used the Indian handmades. I think i must
      not be
      > nearly as persistent as you. I just put them aside and avoided
      them, thinking
      > the problem was with the me. Too bad, because they are such a good
      buy.
      > Anyway, i'm going to be doing some marbling today and will give
      them a try.
      >
      > I have some thoughts about what the problem might be though. First,
      i'm
      > curious about why you submerge the paper in the first place. Is
      that to get
      > the bubbles out? When I alum i use a spray bottle and a sponge.
      Maybe 2 or
      > even 3 applications of alum, sponged in well would work (?). I
      think a long
      > soak in water (water being the universal solvent) might be worth a
      try. Like
      > at least overnight, as if you were soaking it for etching, and as
      long as a
      > couple of days, with a rinse once in while thrown in for good
      measure. The
      > Indian papers i've used for printmaking are tough as can be, and
      you could
      > probably hit them with a fire hose and they would stay in one piece.
      >
      > Anyway, after thoroughly soaking them you would want to dry them
      flat before
      > aluming and marbling. And then try to marble with them while still
      damp and
      > limp from the aluming. Once they have dried out you would probably
      have to
      > really wrestle with them.
      >
      > My guess as to the source of the problem is that it comes from the
      sizing. It
      > is probably applied to the various papers you mentioned in
      different ways,
      > but if it is a surface sizing it could easily have trapped air in
      the fibers.
      > Less likely would be bleach or caustic soda, because they would
      have been
      > diluted and evenly distributed throughout the sheet. If the
      chemical used as
      > internal sizing is applied directly to the sheet, as a surface
      size, it
      > would be extremely tough and probably spotty.
      >
      > This does bring to mind the wonderful and no doubt funniest book
      ever
      > written about marbling - Henry Morris' "The World's Worst Marbled
      Papers." It
      > used Indian handmade papers, marbled with the worst collection of
      bubbles,
      > spots, dust and other flaws imaginable. It never occured to me
      that some of
      > the flaws could be attributed to the paper, but i'll bet that is
      the case.
      >
      > Anyway, that's all for now. I'll let you know what happens with my
      marbling
      > today. tom
    • sixshort@yahoo.com.au
      -Dear Tom. my computer is doing strange things. Did you get my reply to your Message 688? If not, will rewrite it. Regards, Joan.-- In ... similar ... not be
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 25, 2001
        -Dear Tom. my computer is doing strange things. Did you get my reply
        to your Message 688? If not, will rewrite it. Regards, Joan.-- In
        Marbling@y..., leech541@a... wrote:
        > Dear Joan, This is getting interesting. Now i remember having a
        similar
        > problem years ago when i used the Indian handmades. I think i must
        not be
        > nearly as persistent as you. I just put them aside and avoided
        them, thinking
        > the problem was with the me. Too bad, because they are such a good
        buy.
        > Anyway, i'm going to be doing some marbling today and will give
        them a try.
        >
        > I have some thoughts about what the problem might be though. First,
        i'm
        > curious about why you submerge the paper in the first place. Is
        that to get
        > the bubbles out? When I alum i use a spray bottle and a sponge.
        Maybe 2 or
        > even 3 applications of alum, sponged in well would work (?). I
        think a long
        > soak in water (water being the universal solvent) might be worth a
        try. Like
        > at least overnight, as if you were soaking it for etching, and as
        long as a
        > couple of days, with a rinse once in while thrown in for good
        measure. The
        > Indian papers i've used for printmaking are tough as can be, and
        you could
        > probably hit them with a fire hose and they would stay in one piece.
        >
        > Anyway, after thoroughly soaking them you would want to dry them
        flat before
        > aluming and marbling. And then try to marble with them while still
        damp and
        > limp from the aluming. Once they have dried out you would probably
        have to
        > really wrestle with them.
        >
        > My guess as to the source of the problem is that it comes from the
        sizing. It
        > is probably applied to the various papers you mentioned in
        different ways,
        > but if it is a surface sizing it could easily have trapped air in
        the fibers.
        > Less likely would be bleach or caustic soda, because they would
        have been
        > diluted and evenly distributed throughout the sheet. If the
        chemical used as
        > internal sizing is applied directly to the sheet, as a surface
        size, it
        > would be extremely tough and probably spotty.
        >
        > This does bring to mind the wonderful and no doubt funniest book
        ever
        > written about marbling - Henry Morris' "The World's Worst Marbled
        Papers." It
        > used Indian handmade papers, marbled with the worst collection of
        bubbles,
        > spots, dust and other flaws imaginable. It never occured to me
        that some of
        > the flaws could be attributed to the paper, but i'll bet that is
        the case.
        >
        > Anyway, that's all for now. I'll let you know what happens with my
        marbling
        > today. tom
      • IrisNevins
        The sad truth, for many reasons, is that most papers, at least in my experience, do not marble well. Especially true for watercolor marbling. This is why so
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 25, 2001
          The sad truth, for many reasons, is that most papers, at least in my
          experience, do not marble well. Especially true for watercolor marbling.
          This is why so many of us, once we find a paper that works, just stick to
          it....more like hang on to it for dear life!

          I remember when Hopper Sunray stopped working....it was a good reliable
          standby paper.....then they made it "acid-free" by buffering with calcium
          carbonate, which repels the colors. I managed to sell my new carton of 2000
          to a bookbinder for less than half my cost, another marbler I knew used her
          carton as weights!

          I have always relied on the Classic Laid or Linen papers since then. No
          problems at all and they are acid free, though I suspect not buffered. The
          technicians at Neenah won't tell. Let's hope they don't change the sizing
          or something in the future. Permalin also works well. They have a NYC
          listing. I like it a little less than Classic Linen because what they call
          70lb. text weight is a bit heavier than the "same" weight in Classic. Maybe
          they are allowed a certain leeway in giving paper weight in the industry.
          It also curls a bit too much for my taste when wet, but it's not terrible
          from the marbling end of things, especially if you work with dry paper, but
          a few bookbinders have griped. It comes in lots of nice colors too...and
          the company is good, reliable and friendly.

          It would be a great idea for everyone actively marbling on this list to
          submit the names of papers that they use that work well. Also would be good
          to note what paint method, size etc. you use. It would be a wonderful
          source for people just starting out....would save so much $ on wasted
          papers.

          IrisNevins
        • molliann@aol.com
          Someone just mentioned Buko Undo suminagashi inks which brings up a question to which I would love your imput. In January I will be teaching Suminagashi to
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 26, 2001
            Someone just mentioned "Buko Undo suminagashi inks" which brings up a
            question to which I would love your imput.
            In January I will be teaching Suminagashi to the entire Elementary school in
            conjunction with a school wide unit on Japan. Six years ago I taught it for
            the first time with the help of a parent who was also a bookbinder. We used a
            wide collection of colored ink and thinned down acrylic paint and had hit or
            miss results with the colors. I know I sound like a complete novice but Is
            there a special ink for suminagashi? .One paper that works bettter than
            another? If so where can I purchase the inks and the papers so our results
            will be more consistant?
          • sixshort
            Dear Tom, Last August you mentioned that you were trying your Indian handmade papers again, and that you would let me know the results. How did you get on?
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 18, 2002
              Dear Tom, Last August you mentioned that you were trying your Indian
              handmade papers again, and that you would let me know the results.
              How did you get on? from Joan Ajalah--- In Marbling@y...,
              leech541@a... wrote:
              > Dear Joan, This is getting interesting. Now i remember having a
              similar
              > problem years ago when i used the Indian handmades. I think i must
              not be
              > nearly as persistent as you. I just put them aside and avoided
              them, thinking
              > the problem was with the me. Too bad, because they are such a good
              buy.
              > Anyway, i'm going to be doing some marbling today and will give
              them a try.
              >
              > I have some thoughts about what the problem might be though. First,
              i'm
              > curious about why you submerge the paper in the first place. Is
              that to get
              > the bubbles out? When I alum i use a spray bottle and a sponge.
              Maybe 2 or
              > even 3 applications of alum, sponged in well would work (?). I
              think a long
              > soak in water (water being the universal solvent) might be worth a
              try. Like
              > at least overnight, as if you were soaking it for etching, and as
              long as a
              > couple of days, with a rinse once in while thrown in for good
              measure. The
              > Indian papers i've used for printmaking are tough as can be, and
              you could
              > probably hit them with a fire hose and they would stay in one piece.
              >
              > Anyway, after thoroughly soaking them you would want to dry them
              flat before
              > aluming and marbling. And then try to marble with them while still
              damp and
              > limp from the aluming. Once they have dried out you would probably
              have to
              > really wrestle with them.
              >
              > My guess as to the source of the problem is that it comes from the
              sizing. It
              > is probably applied to the various papers you mentioned in
              different ways,
              > but if it is a surface sizing it could easily have trapped air in
              the fibers.
              > Less likely would be bleach or caustic soda, because they would
              have been
              > diluted and evenly distributed throughout the sheet. If the
              chemical used as
              > internal sizing is applied directly to the sheet, as a surface
              size, it
              > would be extremely tough and probably spotty.
              >
              > This does bring to mind the wonderful and no doubt funniest book
              ever
              > written about marbling - Henry Morris' "The World's Worst Marbled
              Papers." It
              > used Indian handmade papers, marbled with the worst collection of
              bubbles,
              > spots, dust and other flaws imaginable. It never occured to me
              that some of
              > the flaws could be attributed to the paper, but i'll bet that is
              the case.
              >
              > Anyway, that's all for now. I'll let you know what happens with my
              marbling
              > today. tom
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