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methyl cellulose

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  • Sue Cole
    I have used three different types of methyl cellulose so far. It s also known as HEC. Each type has it s own mixing instructions. I ve used it a lot for
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 14, 2012
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      I have used three different types of methyl cellulose so far. It's also
      known as HEC. Each type has it's own mixing instructions. I've used it a
      lot for marbling and usually have good success with it. I have also mixed
      it to a thicker consistency and used it to make paste paper by mixing
      acrylic paints into it. I ordered Ross paste and it appears to be methyl
      cellulose.

      Methocel from Dharma Trading needs to have clear ammonia added to it to as
      I understand it, make the cells swell and accept the water.

      The other types of methyl cellulose do not need ammonia, you mix them first
      with a smaller amount of hot water, then with cooler water and let them
      stand overnight.


      http://www.earthguild.com/products/dyes/dyacces.htm

      this is the methyl cellulose that Mimi Schleicher uses



      http://www.earthguild.com/products/riff/webbpdfs/wmargold.pdf

      and here is the instruction sheet for mixing it.



      and Pro Chemical and Dye also carries it:

      http://prochemicalanddye.com/product.php?productid=16180&cat=0&page=1



      hope this is what you wanted

      Sue


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Aaron Salik
      Here at Talas we sell Methyl Cellulose in different quantities, and at a much lower price than the sources mentioned previously. The product can be found on
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 15, 2012
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        Here at Talas we sell Methyl Cellulose in different quantities, and at a
        much lower price than the sources mentioned previously.

        The product can be found on our website here:
        http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375

        --
        Regards,
        Aaron Salik

        Talas
        330 Morgan Ave
        Brooklyn NY 11211
        212-219-0770 Phone
        212-219-0735 Fax
        http://talasonline.com
        http://talasonline.blogspot.com/


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • irisnevins
        Hi Aaron... does it come with instructions for the type you sell. Iris Nevins www.marblingpaper.com On 08/15/12, Aaron Salik wrote: Here
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 15, 2012
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          Hi Aaron... does it come with instructions for the type you sell.
          Iris Nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com


          On 08/15/12, Aaron Salik<aaron@...> wrote:

          Here at Talas we sell Methyl Cellulose in different quantities, and at a
          much lower price than the sources mentioned previously.

          The product can be found on our website here:
          http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375

          --
          Regards,
          Aaron Salik

          Talas
          330 Morgan Ave
          Brooklyn NY 11211
          212-219-0770 Phone
          212-219-0735 Fax
          http://talasonline.com
          http://talasonline.blogspot.com/


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • jemiljan
          Hi Aaron, I ve used your methyl cellulose for other bookbinding applications, but I think it s too grainy to be used for marbling. Do you know if it s
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 16, 2012
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            Hi Aaron,

            I've used your methyl cellulose for other bookbinding applications, but I think it's too grainy to be used for marbling. Do you know if it's hydroxypropyl methylcellulose (HPMC), or another form of Methyl cellulose? Most marblers use a very fine, surface-treated form of methyl cell that can be dispersed in cold water, such as the Dow Methocel J75MSN, which is activated with an alkali such as clear ammonia and then neutralized with white vinegar to bring the Ph down to neutral. Vann Waters & Rogers makes another variation that is sold by Daniel Smith for their papermaking, but I don't think it works anywhere nearly as well as the Dow Methocel J75MSN. I think that is what Dharma Trading Sells. The "Methyl Cellulose" sold by EarthGuild seems to me to be one of the Dow product, and the consistency is very different from what Talas sells. They don't say, but I suspect that it may be Dow A4M or E4M Methocel.

            Also Sue, I think that the "HEC" you are using must be Hydroxy Ethylcellulose, which would be a product like Tylose.

            http://www.setylose.de/wEnglish/produkte/hydroxyethyl/index.php

            Have you compared this to the Dow brand I mentioned?

            Best,

            Jake Benson

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Salik <aaron@...> wrote:
            >
            > Here at Talas we sell Methyl Cellulose in different quantities, and at a
            > much lower price than the sources mentioned previously.
            >
            > The product can be found on our website here:
            > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375
            >
            > --
            > Regards,
            > Aaron Salik
            >
            > Talas
            > 330 Morgan Ave
            > Brooklyn NY 11211
            > 212-219-0770 Phone
            > 212-219-0735 Fax
            > http://talasonline.com
            > http://talasonline.blogspot.com/
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Aaron Salik
            Hi Iris, It does not. We have plenty of people that purchase this for marbling, but I am unsure what proportions they use. In the wide world of methyl
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 16, 2012
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              Hi Iris,

              It does not. We have plenty of people that purchase this for marbling, but
              I am unsure what proportions they use.

              In the wide world of methyl cellulose, what defines the different types is
              viscosity. Unlike our competitors, we actually disclose what we sell and
              this is 2000 cPs at 2% in water. Do you know what viscosity it is that
              others are selling? This would be helpful to form a baseline comparison
              for mixing.

              Iris: I would also be happy to send you some at no charge so you can test
              it and share the recipe for the greater benefit of the group.

              --
              Regards,
              Aaron Salik

              Talas
              330 Morgan Ave
              Brooklyn NY 11211
              212-219-0770 Phone
              212-219-0735 Fax
              http://talasonline.com
              http://talasonline.blogspot.com/


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • irisnevins
              Hi Aaron.... I would really need to know how to dilute it. I suspect it will not work well with my watercolors, they seem to like carrageenan much better! I
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 16, 2012
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                Hi Aaron.... I would really need to know how to dilute it. I suspect it will not work well with my watercolors, they seem to like carrageenan much better! I know nothing about what viscosity anything is being used at. It is such a personal thing too, and at least with carrageenan the viscosity changes as you work with it or with room temperature, so I would never even dream of trying to scientifically measure it. Rather, most of the marblers I know, if not all... "Play it by ear" as they would say in music. I think we adapt to it more easily than we can get it to adapt to us. I wouldn't mind trying it however, but would like a baseline recipe anyway if you can get one. I'd be happy to report to the group, but again, I would be using watercolor, my preference. I could try with acrylics too but then again I may not be using the same brand others may be, so they may get different results. People think all watercolor or gouache is the same and all acrylic paint is the same.... it is not only not the same from one brand to the next, but even within the same brand you will get differences from one batch or lot to the next! This is the reason I started making my own paints over 30 years back, it was driving me crazy. I wanted a consistent paint, even if I had to figure out how to make it. After 34 years I am still trying to perfect it too, but am beginning to suspect that is a losing battle... marbling paints due to the finickiness of the art possibly can never work perfectly every time. They work about 99% and that is pretty good considering the problems.

                So... I do have a pending order with you, talk to Marge, if you want to put some in to try I will try it. Jake mentioned some graininess though to it, maybe others have had a different experience? if anyone here reading has, please post!
                thanks
                Iris
                www.marblingpaper.com



                On 08/16/12, Aaron Salik<aaron@...> wrote:

                Hi Iris,

                It does not. We have plenty of people that purchase this for marbling, but
                I am unsure what proportions they use.

                In the wide world of methyl cellulose, what defines the different types is
                viscosity. Unlike our competitors, we actually disclose what we sell and
                this is 2000 cPs at 2% in water. Do you know what viscosity it is that
                others are selling? This would be helpful to form a baseline comparison
                for mixing.

                Iris: I would also be happy to send you some at no charge so you can test
                it and share the recipe for the greater benefit of the group.

                --
                Regards,
                Aaron Salik

                Talas
                330 Morgan Ave
                Brooklyn NY 11211
                212-219-0770 Phone
                212-219-0735 Fax
                http://talasonline.com
                http://talasonline.blogspot.com/


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Aaron Salik
                Hi Iris, I couldn t agree with you more, and this is why we don t typically provide recipes with our products. Since we sell to a wide and varied group of
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 17, 2012
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                  Hi Iris,

                  I couldn't agree with you more, and this is why we don't typically provide
                  recipes with our products.

                  Since we sell to a wide and varied group of customers (bookbinders, art
                  conservators, marblers, etc) that all use these products in very different
                  ways, it is impossible to have a recipe that works for all applications.
                  It's like a bag of flour having a recipe on it. Our customers are also
                  typically trained professionals, and recipes are more guidelines than hard
                  and fast rules.

                  I certainly don't mean to put you on the spot, but you are the one who
                  asked for a recipe and then replied that you never use one but do it by
                  feel. We feel the same.

                  Jake, I agree. Most people marbling at a high level don't use Methyl
                  Cellulose for marbling, but some do who want a cheaper alternative to
                  carageenan. I don't think there is any question the results are sub
                  standard, but everything has its time and place. For example when Martha
                  Stewart featured a marbling project, and I can't remember if it was on her
                  tv show, magazine, or online) she used methyl cellulose and referenced as
                  as the source where she obtained the supplies. This is a perfect group for
                  MC and not carageenan -)

                  What we sell as this generic form of methyl cellulose is Culminal
                  methylcellulose MC 2000. It is methyl cellulose, not MHPC or other similar
                  forms. It works for marbling. We do also sell other methyl cellulose
                  products that are more expensive and desired for specific art conservation
                  treatments, such as Dow A4C and Aqualon Cellulose Gum CMC 7H3SF PH which is
                  actually a carboxyl methyl cellulose.

                  If there is anyone out there who uses methyl cellulose for their marbling
                  and would like to help me develop a baseline recipe for the product we sell
                  for this application, I would gladly send some samples. Please contact me
                  directly at aaron@...

                  --
                  Regards,
                  Aaron Salik

                  Talas
                  330 Morgan Ave
                  Brooklyn NY 11211
                  212-219-0770 Phone
                  212-219-0735 Fax
                  http://talasonline.com
                  http://talasonline.blogspot.com/


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • irisnevins
                  Thanks Aaron... maybe I was unclear...yes, I would fine tune it by feel, BUT... not being a user of it at all, I have no clue what the additives needed are in
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 17, 2012
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                    Thanks Aaron... maybe I was unclear...yes, I would fine tune it by feel, BUT... not being a user of it at all, I have no clue what the additives needed are in the first place. We fine tune it by ear but have a basic starting point is what I need, so if anyone has an idea as to how much water say, to a TBS of it, if it needs any ammonia and how much per TBS etc.


                    Iris
                    www.marblingpaper.com



                    On 08/17/12, Aaron Salik<aaron@...> wrote:

                    Hi Iris,

                    I couldn't agree with you more, and this is why we don't typically provide
                    recipes with our products.

                    Since we sell to a wide and varied group of customers (bookbinders, art
                    conservators, marblers, etc) that all use these products in very different
                    ways, it is impossible to have a recipe that works for all applications.
                    It's like a bag of flour having a recipe on it. Our customers are also
                    typically trained professionals, and recipes are more guidelines than hard
                    and fast rules.

                    I certainly don't mean to put you on the spot, but you are the one who
                    asked for a recipe and then replied that you never use one but do it by
                    feel. We feel the same.

                    Jake, I agree. Most people marbling at a high level don't use Methyl
                    Cellulose for marbling, but some do who want a cheaper alternative to
                    carageenan. I don't think there is any question the results are sub
                    standard, but everything has its time and place. For example when Martha
                    Stewart featured a marbling project, and I can't remember if it was on her
                    tv show, magazine, or online) she used methyl cellulose and referenced as
                    as the source where she obtained the supplies. This is a perfect group for
                    MC and not carageenan -)

                    What we sell as this generic form of methyl cellulose is Culminal
                    methylcellulose MC 2000. It is methyl cellulose, not MHPC or other similar
                    forms. It works for marbling. We do also sell other methyl cellulose
                    products that are more expensive and desired for specific art conservation
                    treatments, such as Dow A4C and Aqualon Cellulose Gum CMC 7H3SF PH which is
                    actually a carboxyl methyl cellulose.

                    If there is anyone out there who uses methyl cellulose for their marbling
                    and would like to help me develop a baseline recipe for the product we sell
                    for this application, I would gladly send some samples. Please contact me
                    directly at aaron@...

                    --
                    Regards,
                    Aaron Salik

                    Talas
                    330 Morgan Ave
                    Brooklyn NY 11211
                    212-219-0770 Phone
                    212-219-0735 Fax
                    http://talasonline.com
                    http://talasonline.blogspot.com/


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • carylhanc@aol.com
                    Hi, Iris and all, I use M/C, usually purchased from Dharma. Their recipe calls for 1 ounce (3-1/2 TBSP) powder to 1 gallon of room temp water, while
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 17, 2012
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                      Hi, Iris and all,


                      I use M/C, usually purchased from Dharma. Their "recipe" calls for 1 ounce (3-1/2 TBSP) powder to 1 gallon of room temp water, while stirring. Then stirring in 1 teaspoon of CLEAR ammonia, and letting it rest for 20 minutes, stir again, and play. We have water here with a pH often below 6, so I tend to add about 1 TABLESPOON of ammonia, as I have found that necessary to get the pH up high enough for the M/C to swell.
                      I believe that the M/C from Pro-Chem requires the same amount of ammonia, but also requires an equal amount of vinegar to adjust the pH. I have been known to be wrong, and don't have any Pro-Chem's to check.


                      Of course, "feel" comes into play, but I have found that the above amounts are about right - unless I am really playing around.


                      I should also add that I use acrylics, often Pro-Chem's, but with Goldens, liquitex as well as the inexpensive craft ones, and they usually play fairly well together. If not, some dilute Photo-Flo usually solves the problem.


                      HTH!
                      Caryl Hancock, indianapolis



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                      To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 2:38 pm
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: methyl cellulose





                      Thanks Aaron... maybe I was unclear...yes, I would fine tune it by feel, BUT... not being a user of it at all, I have no clue what the additives needed are in the first place. We fine tune it by ear but have a basic starting point is what I need, so if anyone has an idea as to how much water say, to a TBS of it, if it needs any ammonia and how much per TBS etc.

                      Iris
                      www.marblingpaper.com

                      On 08/17/12, Aaron Salik<aaron@...> wrote:

                      Hi Iris,

                      I couldn't agree with you more, and this is why we don't typically provide
                      recipes with our products.

                      Since we sell to a wide and varied group of customers (bookbinders, art
                      conservators, marblers, etc) that all use these products in very different
                      ways, it is impossible to have a recipe that works for all applications.
                      It's like a bag of flour having a recipe on it. Our customers are also
                      typically trained professionals, and recipes are more guidelines than hard
                      and fast rules.

                      I certainly don't mean to put you on the spot, but you are the one who
                      asked for a recipe and then replied that you never use one but do it by
                      feel. We feel the same.

                      Jake, I agree. Most people marbling at a high level don't use Methyl
                      Cellulose for marbling, but some do who want a cheaper alternative to
                      carageenan. I don't think there is any question the results are sub
                      standard, but everything has its time and place. For example when Martha
                      Stewart featured a marbling project, and I can't remember if it was on her
                      tv show, magazine, or online) she used methyl cellulose and referenced as
                      as the source where she obtained the supplies. This is a perfect group for
                      MC and not carageenan -)

                      What we sell as this generic form of methyl cellulose is Culminal
                      methylcellulose MC 2000. It is methyl cellulose, not MHPC or other similar
                      forms. It works for marbling. We do also sell other methyl cellulose
                      products that are more expensive and desired for specific art conservation
                      treatments, such as Dow A4C and Aqualon Cellulose Gum CMC 7H3SF PH which is
                      actually a carboxyl methyl cellulose.

                      If there is anyone out there who uses methyl cellulose for their marbling
                      and would like to help me develop a baseline recipe for the product we sell
                      for this application, I would gladly send some samples. Please contact me
                      directly at aaron@...

                      --
                      Regards,
                      Aaron Salik

                      Talas
                      330 Morgan Ave
                      Brooklyn NY 11211
                      212-219-0770 Phone
                      212-219-0735 Fax
                      http://talasonline.com
                      http://talasonline.blogspot.com/

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links









                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Sue Cole
                      to add to this thread. In Talas s directions, it says to use 1/2 cup of powder to 1 gallon of water and let it stand overnight to make a thick solution and
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 17, 2012
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                        to add to this thread. In Talas's directions, it says to use 1/2 cup of
                        powder to 1 gallon of water and let it stand overnight to make a thick
                        solution and does not need ammonia or vinegar.. This is similar to to
                        another mc which I use from
                        **
                        *
                        http://www.rogergeorge.com/special-effects/expendables/methyl-cellulose-powder
                        *
                        **
                        *and the HEC is from:*
                        **
                        *ChemPoint.com*
                        *phone/fax** * 425.372.9091
                        *toll free** * 800.485.9569 x1

                        *email* *jon.madden@... *

                        Orders can be placed through Customer Solutions at (800)485-9569 ext. 1,
                        faxed to (425)378-8675, or e-mailed to orders@...<sales@...>
                        .

                        <https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=e2b74b940c&view=att&th=125a3bf3398a0b73&attid=0.1&disp=attd&zw>
                        *CELLOSIZE QP 4400H hydroxyethyl cellulose.pdf*
                        47K View<https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=e2b74b940c&view=gvatt&th=125a3bf3398a0b73&attid=0.1&disp=attd&mime=application/pdf&zw>
                        Download<https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=e2b74b940c&view=att&th=125a3bf3398a0b73&attid=0.1&disp=attd&zw>


                        But I found that it's like comparing apples to oranges. I looked at the
                        MSDS sheets for both Talas and Roger George and they are different
                        formulations of mc - however, neither one needs ammonia or viegar to
                        activate them.

                        Roger George Rentals is a movie effects company and they use it for making
                        slime, so that if the actors get it in their mouths, it doesn't bother
                        them. from my notes:

                        *Has good prices and 3 pounds will fit exactly into a flat rate mailing box.
                        Does not need ammonia. Mix with hot water first, then cold water and let
                        sit overnight to thicken. I have been using 5-6 Tbsp per gallon and mixing
                        it into a smaller amount of hot water with a hand held stick blender first,
                        then adding the rest of the water and re-stirring. *

                        **

                        *I talked them into shipping it in plastic bags instead of the jars to cut
                        down on the shipping price. I have that and Dharm'as in jars side by side
                        and Dharma's seems to be a fluffier powder.*

                        **

                        *The HEC is used by two large scale marbling friends and it is sold in 20
                        to 50# lots and does use ammonia and vinegar to activate it. This is one
                        friend's instructions for large batches:*

                        **

                        *I make twelve gallon batches and use three cups of HEC powder, (a
                        different formulation of cellulose powder) stirred with a whisk. I try to
                        remember to fill the bucket the night before so it can be room temperature
                        by morning. Then I try to estimate one film can full of ammonia, but I
                        think I really use more. (seriously, this is how I was taught!) Then I try
                        to add the same amount of vinegar to neutralize it. *



                        *I have used both the Roger George and the Dharma and both seem to be the
                        same after mixing. They do not spoil and I have mixed both thicker to use
                        for paste paper effects also.*



                        *So far, I have been having good luck with the guar gum also. I get it at
                        the health food store and use 1 tablespoon to one gallon of water.*



                        *I'm a research person and keep my notes in a Word document.*



                        *I'm not a good enough math person so far to figure out if it's cheaper to
                        use mc over carageen. I started using the mc in a class that I took and
                        also switched to using it in the summer when it's hot here because the
                        carageen goes bad quickly. I save the carageen for paper.*



                        I mix the cargeen in a blender, then pour it into gallon containers and use
                        a hand held "stick" blender for the mc and mix it directly in the gallon
                        jars, then later stir it with a whisk.



                        I also use the mc for bookbinding along with pva glue



                        Hope some of this helps,

                        Sue


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • irisnevins
                        Thanks for all the details! I have tried MC with my wtaercolors and they don t like to spread... unless I put in lots of gall. I may try with photo flo. And
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 17, 2012
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                          Thanks for all the details! I have tried MC with my wtaercolors and they don't like to spread... unless I put in lots of gall. I may try with photo flo. And also try with acrylics. I am so used to the carrageenan though, for both types of paint. I only ever make as much as needed for the day so it never spoils.

                          iris
                          www.marblingpaper.com


                          On 08/17/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:

                          to add to this thread. In Talas's directions, it says to use 1/2 cup of
                          powder to 1 gallon of water and let it stand overnight to make a thick
                          solution and does not need ammonia or vinegar.. This is similar to to
                          another mc which I use from
                          **
                          *
                          http://www.rogergeorge.com/special-effects/expendables/methyl-cellulose-powder
                          *
                          **
                          *and the HEC is from:*
                          **
                          *ChemPoint.com*
                          *phone/fax** * 425.372.9091
                          *toll free** * 800.485.9569 x1

                          *email* *jon.madden@... *

                          Orders can be placed through Customer Solutions at (800)485-9569 ext. 1,
                          faxed to (425)378-8675, or e-mailed to orders@...<sales@...>
                          .

                          <https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=e2b74b940c&view=att&th=125a3bf3398a0b73&attid=0.1&disp=attd&zw>
                          *CELLOSIZE QP 4400H hydroxyethyl cellulose.pdf*
                          47K View<https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=e2b74b940c&view=gvatt&th=125a3bf3398a0b73&attid=0.1&disp=attd&mime=application/pdf&zw>
                          Download<https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=e2b74b940c&view=att&th=125a3bf3398a0b73&attid=0.1&disp=attd&zw>


                          But I found that it's like comparing apples to oranges. I looked at the
                          MSDS sheets for both Talas and Roger George and they are different
                          formulations of mc - however, neither one needs ammonia or viegar to
                          activate them.

                          Roger George Rentals is a movie effects company and they use it for making
                          slime, so that if the actors get it in their mouths, it doesn't bother
                          them. from my notes:

                          *Has good prices and 3 pounds will fit exactly into a flat rate mailing box.
                          Does not need ammonia. Mix with hot water first, then cold water and let
                          sit overnight to thicken. I have been using 5-6 Tbsp per gallon and mixing
                          it into a smaller amount of hot water with a hand held stick blender first,
                          then adding the rest of the water and re-stirring. *

                          **

                          *I talked them into shipping it in plastic bags instead of the jars to cut
                          down on the shipping price. I have that and Dharm'as in jars side by side
                          and Dharma's seems to be a fluffier powder.*

                          **

                          *The HEC is used by two large scale marbling friends and it is sold in 20
                          to 50# lots and does use ammonia and vinegar to activate it. This is one
                          friend's instructions for large batches:*

                          **

                          *I make twelve gallon batches and use three cups of HEC powder, (a
                          different formulation of cellulose powder) stirred with a whisk. I try to
                          remember to fill the bucket the night before so it can be room temperature
                          by morning. Then I try to estimate one film can full of ammonia, but I
                          think I really use more. (seriously, this is how I was taught!) Then I try
                          to add the same amount of vinegar to neutralize it. *



                          *I have used both the Roger George and the Dharma and both seem to be the
                          same after mixing. They do not spoil and I have mixed both thicker to use
                          for paste paper effects also.*



                          *So far, I have been having good luck with the guar gum also. I get it at
                          the health food store and use 1 tablespoon to one gallon of water.*



                          *I'm a research person and keep my notes in a Word document.*



                          *I'm not a good enough math person so far to figure out if it's cheaper to
                          use mc over carageen. I started using the mc in a class that I took and
                          also switched to using it in the summer when it's hot here because the
                          carageen goes bad quickly. I save the carageen for paper.*



                          I mix the cargeen in a blender, then pour it into gallon containers and use
                          a hand held "stick" blender for the mc and mix it directly in the gallon
                          jars, then later stir it with a whisk.



                          I also use the mc for bookbinding along with pva glue



                          Hope some of this helps,

                          Sue


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • jemiljan
                          Caryl, Both of these forms from Dharma and Pro-Chem are the surface treated forms of hydroxypropyl methylcellose (HPMC). A considerable problem in this
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 18, 2012
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                            Caryl,

                            Both of these forms from Dharma and Pro-Chem are the "surface treated" forms of hydroxypropyl methylcellose (HPMC).

                            A considerable problem in this discussion has been the use of the term "methyl cellulose" for a very wide variety of cellulose ethers. They are not the same.

                            Please refer to my earlier discussion of this topic:

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/message/4467

                            best,

                            Jake Benson
                            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, carylhanc@... wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi, Iris and all,
                            >
                            >
                            > I use M/C, usually purchased from Dharma. Their "recipe" calls for 1 ounce (3-1/2 TBSP) powder to 1 gallon of room temp water, while stirring. Then stirring in 1 teaspoon of CLEAR ammonia, and letting it rest for 20 minutes, stir again, and play. We have water here with a pH often below 6, so I tend to add about 1 TABLESPOON of ammonia, as I have found that necessary to get the pH up high enough for the M/C to swell.
                            > I believe that the M/C from Pro-Chem requires the same amount of ammonia, but also requires an equal amount of vinegar to adjust the pH. I have been known to be wrong, and don't have any Pro-Chem's to check.
                            >
                            >
                            > Of course, "feel" comes into play, but I have found that the above amounts are about right - unless I am really playing around.
                            >
                            >
                            > I should also add that I use acrylics, often Pro-Chem's, but with Goldens, liquitex as well as the inexpensive craft ones, and they usually play fairly well together. If not, some dilute Photo-Flo usually solves the problem.
                            >
                            >
                            > HTH!
                            > Caryl Hancock, indianapolis
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                            > To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 2:38 pm
                            > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: methyl cellulose
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Thanks Aaron... maybe I was unclear...yes, I would fine tune it by feel, BUT... not being a user of it at all, I have no clue what the additives needed are in the first place. We fine tune it by ear but have a basic starting point is what I need, so if anyone has an idea as to how much water say, to a TBS of it, if it needs any ammonia and how much per TBS etc.
                            >
                            > Iris
                            > www.marblingpaper.com
                            >
                            > On 08/17/12, Aaron Salik<aaron@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Iris,
                            >
                            > I couldn't agree with you more, and this is why we don't typically provide
                            > recipes with our products.
                            >
                            > Since we sell to a wide and varied group of customers (bookbinders, art
                            > conservators, marblers, etc) that all use these products in very different
                            > ways, it is impossible to have a recipe that works for all applications.
                            > It's like a bag of flour having a recipe on it. Our customers are also
                            > typically trained professionals, and recipes are more guidelines than hard
                            > and fast rules.
                            >
                            > I certainly don't mean to put you on the spot, but you are the one who
                            > asked for a recipe and then replied that you never use one but do it by
                            > feel. We feel the same.
                            >
                            > Jake, I agree. Most people marbling at a high level don't use Methyl
                            > Cellulose for marbling, but some do who want a cheaper alternative to
                            > carageenan. I don't think there is any question the results are sub
                            > standard, but everything has its time and place. For example when Martha
                            > Stewart featured a marbling project, and I can't remember if it was on her
                            > tv show, magazine, or online) she used methyl cellulose and referenced as
                            > as the source where she obtained the supplies. This is a perfect group for
                            > MC and not carageenan -)
                            >
                            > What we sell as this generic form of methyl cellulose is Culminal
                            > methylcellulose MC 2000. It is methyl cellulose, not MHPC or other similar
                            > forms. It works for marbling. We do also sell other methyl cellulose
                            > products that are more expensive and desired for specific art conservation
                            > treatments, such as Dow A4C and Aqualon Cellulose Gum CMC 7H3SF PH which is
                            > actually a carboxyl methyl cellulose.
                            >
                            > If there is anyone out there who uses methyl cellulose for their marbling
                            > and would like to help me develop a baseline recipe for the product we sell
                            > for this application, I would gladly send some samples. Please contact me
                            > directly at aaron@...
                            >
                            > --
                            > Regards,
                            > Aaron Salik
                            >
                            > Talas
                            > 330 Morgan Ave
                            > Brooklyn NY 11211
                            > 212-219-0770 Phone
                            > 212-219-0735 Fax
                            > http://talasonline.com
                            > http://talasonline.blogspot.com/
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Sue Cole
                            Aaron, as I said in my former answer, I have discovered there are two types of methyl cellulose - one uses ammonia and one doesn t. In your recipe, it appears
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 18, 2012
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                              Aaron, as I said in my former answer, I have discovered there are two types
                              of methyl cellulose - one uses ammonia and one doesn't. In your recipe, it
                              appears you have the type that doesn't need it. I sent you a message
                              saying I would be glad to try some out.

                              In the two that I have used that don't need ammonia, you have to mix them
                              with hot water first to activate it and I use a stick blender, otherwise
                              you have to stir it forever, then I add cooler water to the level i want
                              and let it sit overnight before I use it. I have kept it for months and
                              have had no spoilage or change in consistency. I use it for marbling,
                              paste paper and bookbinding. However, I have found that it takes slightly
                              more of the no ammonia type to make the gel. For instance, Dharma's takes
                              4 tablespoons per gallon and the other type takes 6 tablespoons per gallon.
                              HTH
                              Sue


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • jemiljan
                              ... Dear Aaron, Thanks for your reply. I think a few points of clarification are in order. First of all, it is important to note that methods of marbling
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 18, 2012
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                                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Salik <aaron@...> wrote:

                                > Jake, I agree. Most people marbling at a high level don't use Methyl
                                > Cellulose for marbling, but some do who want a cheaper alternative to
                                > carageenan. I don't think there is any question the results are sub
                                > standard, but everything has its time and place. For example when Martha
                                > Stewart featured a marbling project, and I can't remember if it was on her
                                > tv show, magazine, or online) she used methyl cellulose and referenced as
                                > as the source where she obtained the supplies. This is a perfect group for
                                > MC and not carageenan -) >
                                > What we sell as this generic form of methyl cellulose is Culminal
                                > methylcellulose MC 2000. It is methyl cellulose, not MHPC or other similar
                                > forms. It works for marbling.

                                Dear Aaron,

                                Thanks for your reply. I think a few points of clarification are in order. First of all, it is important to note that methods of marbling using cellulose ethers are compatible with acrylic and oil colors, not watercolors. Iris mentioned how she couldn't get her colors to spread evenly. If anyone out there has gotten water colors to work on methyl cellulose, I'd love to hear about it, but even better, I'd like to have a look at the results. Many people- even marblers- will confuse these different systems and vaguely describe them as "water-based", but traditional watercolor marbling on a carrageenan size is a very different creature in comparison to modern methods using acrylics and cellulose ethers. It's like comparing apples and oranges- or perhaps more like grapefuits to oranges.

                                Many acrylic marblers use carrageenan, but I don't think it's necessary to use a pure carrageenan size for that purpose. In my own experiments with acrylic marbling, I found that a 1:1 mix of carrageenan (mixed 1 tbs to 2 quarts H20) and the cold-water dispersible HPMC (I think I mixed 1 tsp or 1 1/2 tspn per quart- about the same as the carrageenan, but my notes are back home in the States) gave the best of both. I later read that the late Christopher Weimann had found a similar ratio worked, even though Ingrid told me that he mainly use guar gum (Ingrid, if you're listening, please correct me if I'm wrong).

                                Aaron, I very much like and heartily recommend your company, your services, and your products, but I have to be honest and say that the use of this specific product for marbling is just not the best advice. Even if people are buying it from you for marbling, I would still say that there are far better HPMC products available that are far more ideally suited to the purpose. Your MC may work for a certain rudimentary type of marbling, but so will wallpaper paste from the local home improvement store: neither will work very well or produce very good results. I've used and worked with your product a great deal, but mainly as an additive for PVA adhesives. It's perfectly fine to use it for that purpose, so it does have it's place.

                                Please understand that I'm just being dead-honest about the fact that there are enormous differences in the working qualities of your product and the surface treated cold-water dispersible HPMC that many professional fabric and acrylic marblers generally use. Simply put, your product is grainer and more opaque; I've tried everything to reduce the opacity and granularity, from letting it sit for long periods to ensure maximum swell, to adding different forms of alkali. It can help to some degree, but it is still nowhere nearly as fine as the Dow Methocel J75M-S, which is crystal-clear, and ready to use in a short period of time after preparation, and also very durable.

                                There is also a significant difference in viscosity. You say your product is 2,000 centipoise (Cps). Dow measures their product in millipoise (Mps) units. so the"75m" in "J75M-S means 75,000 millipoise which converts to 7,500 cps- which is 3 1/2 times that of your product. The "S" suffix simply means "surface-treated" so that it can be dispersed in cold water, rather than hot water like the other forms that Sue mentioned. The higher viscosity means that it can be diluted quite thinly and still maintain a degree of viscosity that is also very supple and fluid, making it ideal for marbling. By comparison, I know from experience that your product just doesn't hold up when diluted so much, gel will even start to separate. As Sue noted, the other forms of MC and HPMC require more powder to achieve a similar viscosity, so the cost difference of using the surface-treated, cold water dispersible HPMC really is negligible, as it takes far less to make up a suitable size. So the cold-water dispersible grade wins hands-down.

                                Perhaps you would be interested in selling the surface-treated, cold-water-dispersible HPMC? Aside from marbling, it is a perfectly suitable form of HPMC for conservation purposes such as sizing paper after aqueous deacidification. Most paper conservators don't use it, simply because they don't know about it. I only learned about it from marblers. Standard alkali used for paper conservation, such as calcium and magnesium hydroxide, can be used to activate it, and once activated, it can be used immediately. I've used it for sizing, knowing that it imparts an additional alkaline reserve to paper after washing. I've even made remoistenable repair tissues with it. The best feature about it i comparison to the A4M, E4M etc., is that you don't need to wait for any bubbles to settle out before using it.

                                Well, that's my 2¢. Take it or leave it, and no offense to Aaron or Talas at all- I LOVE you guys!!- but my advice to the marblers on this list is that I'd spare yourselves the time and headache trying to get this particular product to work for marbling.

                                As an aside, I have a question for those of you marbling for several decades- when did marblers start using methyl cellulose for size? Who was the first to advocate using it instead of carrageenan? Was this as the result of an Ink & Gall article? Or was it before that time? Any ideas?

                                Finally, just to give credit where credit is due, I have to thank Peggy Skycraft for sharing the information about the Dow Methocel J75M-S grade, as part of her presentation on experimenting with different sizes at the 1992 Marblers' Gathering in San Francisco (<<<GASP>>>- 20 years ago!!!!). So if you're listening out there, thanks, Peggy!

                                With best wishes from Cairo,

                                Jake Benson
                              • Aaron Salik
                                Thank you everyone for the information gathered thus far. I am not a marbler, and rely on groups just like this to educate myself and improve our business and
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 20, 2012
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                                  Thank you everyone for the information gathered thus far.

                                  I am not a marbler, and rely on groups just like this to educate myself and
                                  improve our business and products offered. I would never take offense to
                                  any of the statements said; I learned a tremendous amount from them.

                                  It is interesting and unfortunate that most people don't know the actual
                                  product they are using, nor that their suppliers disclose what they are
                                  selling. The methyl cellulose we sell is cold water dispersable, but the
                                  viscosity will require a greater amount to be used compared to the Dow J75M-S
                                  that you reference, so the cost savings is indeed not as great as it seems.
                                  I would consider carrying this product if there is demand, but would like
                                  to know what the audience is that uses HPMC vs carageenan.

                                  --
                                  Regards,
                                  Aaron Salik

                                  Talas
                                  330 Morgan Ave
                                  Brooklyn NY 11211
                                  212-219-0770 Phone
                                  212-219-0735 Fax
                                  http://talasonline.com
                                  http://talasonline.blogspot.com/


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • John Goode
                                  I only use carrageenan and have for 20 plus years... I hope i never have to change :) Sticking with what works.... Have a nice day....John Goode ... [Non-text
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 20, 2012
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                                    I only use carrageenan and have for 20 plus years...
                                    I hope i never have to change :)
                                    Sticking with what works....
                                    Have a nice day....John Goode

                                    On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 9:55 AM, Aaron Salik <aaron@...> wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thank you everyone for the information gathered thus far.
                                    >
                                    > I am not a marbler, and rely on groups just like this to educate myself and
                                    > improve our business and products offered. I would never take offense to
                                    > any of the statements said; I learned a tremendous amount from them.
                                    >
                                    > It is interesting and unfortunate that most people don't know the actual
                                    > product they are using, nor that their suppliers disclose what they are
                                    > selling. The methyl cellulose we sell is cold water dispersable, but the
                                    > viscosity will require a greater amount to be used compared to the Dow
                                    > J75M-S
                                    > that you reference, so the cost savings is indeed not as great as it seems.
                                    > I would consider carrying this product if there is demand, but would like
                                    > to know what the audience is that uses HPMC vs carageenan.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Regards,
                                    > Aaron Salik
                                    >
                                    > Talas
                                    > 330 Morgan Ave
                                    > Brooklyn NY 11211
                                    > 212-219-0770 Phone
                                    > 212-219-0735 Fax
                                    > http://talasonline.com
                                    > http://talasonline.blogspot.com/
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • kathrynfanelli
                                    Greetings all, Over the summer I purchased a large quantity of methyl cel from Talas not realizing it was a different form of MC. I normally use the ProChem
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 18 10:16 AM
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                                      Greetings all,

                                      Over the summer I purchased a large quantity of methyl cel from Talas not realizing it was a different form of MC. I normally use the ProChem methyl cel M112 which is the type that uses ammonia & vinegar. It also sets up in an hour so it's much faster than the Talas brand which says in their instruction takes 3 hours. I was unable to get answers as to the best way to prepare the Talas methyl cel for marbling by phoning them.

                                      I am in the middle of preparing it at the moment but because I have children and an interrupted day, I must leave the studio with my 5 gallons unsure of what to do.

                                      If there is anyone with advice on preparing please reply.

                                      I mixed 17.5 TBS to 5 gal room temp water using an electric paint mixer wand.

                                      Thanks for your help!

                                      Kathryn
                                    • Sohail Akhtar
                                      hi. i m sohail from Karachi Pakistan.  i use textile gum called ALCO for sizing(water for marbling) i use one tablespoon in two litre water then mix it.
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Sep 20 1:34 AM
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                                        hi. i m sohail from Karachi Pakistan.  i use textile gum called "ALCO" for sizing(water for marbling) i use one tablespoon in two litre water then mix it. leave it for half an hour then u can use. bye


                                        ________________________________
                                        From: kathrynfanelli <kathrynfanelli@...>
                                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 10:16 PM
                                        Subject: [Marbling] Re: methyl cellulose


                                         
                                        Greetings all,

                                        Over the summer I purchased a large quantity of methyl cel from Talas not realizing it was a different form of MC. I normally use the ProChem methyl cel M112 which is the type that uses ammonia & vinegar. It also sets up in an hour so it's much faster than the Talas brand which says in their instruction takes 3 hours. I was unable to get answers as to the best way to prepare the Talas methyl cel for marbling by phoning them.

                                        I am in the middle of preparing it at the moment but because I have children and an interrupted day, I must leave the studio with my 5 gallons unsure of what to do.

                                        If there is anyone with advice on preparing please reply.

                                        I mixed 17.5 TBS to 5 gal room temp water using an electric paint mixer wand.

                                        Thanks for your help!

                                        Kathryn




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Aaron Salik
                                        Hi Kathryn, After the recent exchange of messages on the list, one member Sue Cole was nice enough to volunteer her time to evaluate and come up with
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Sep 20 5:53 AM
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                                          Hi Kathryn,

                                          After the recent exchange of messages on the list, one member Sue Cole was
                                          nice enough to volunteer her time to evaluate and come up with instructions
                                          for our methyl cellulose.

                                          As mentioned before, instructions are nothing more than a starting point,
                                          as people have great preferences for how they like their materials
                                          prepared. This is what Sue provided in her findings:

                                          Company

                                          Name

                                          CAS#

                                          Price per 1#

                                          Concentration + Ammonia?

                                          Talas

                                          Culminal MC

                                          9004-67-5

                                          $14.50

                                          6 Tbsp/ gallon water no

                                          Roger George Rentals

                                          Hydroxypropyl MC

                                          9004-65-3

                                          $15.00

                                          6 Tbsp/ gallon water no

                                          Dharma Trading

                                          Hydroxypropyl MC

                                          9004-65-3

                                          $22.50

                                          4 Tbsp/ gallon water yes

                                          Pro Chem

                                          Hydroxypropyl MC

                                          9004-65-3

                                          $24.50

                                          4 Tbsp/ gallon water yes

                                          Earth Guild

                                          unknown

                                          unknown

                                          $25.40

                                          4 Tbsp/ gallon water yes



                                          I had good success with the Talas MC, but you DO need to let it set for
                                          awhile to thicken. It does not need ammonia or vinegar. I used very hot
                                          water and a stick blender to blend it, then reblended it every so often
                                          over an hour, then let it sit overnight to clear and thicken. You may not
                                          need to let it sit that long, but that�s what I did. You could also use a
                                          whisk, but the stick blender or drill blender for larger amounts is
                                          easier. If you blend it too long, you will get foam, but it will settle
                                          down.



                                          I just left the gallon jars in my sink or counter, and came back every so
                                          often to stir them. I do this with all of them, because if you don�t, I
                                          have had the excess mc settle to the bottom of the container and make a
                                          thick clump.



                                          I mixed it in three different thicknesses. 4 tablespoons per gallon made a
                                          thinner gel, 8 tablespoons made a thicker gel, so 6 tablespoons was about
                                          right for marbling the scarves.

                                          I used both and got more distinct lines on paper with the thicker one.
                                          Then I also mixed some as 1 tablespoon per cup to get a thick gel to use
                                          for paste paper. My scanner is not hooked up right now or I would attach
                                          photos. I was happy with the papers I made with the Talas and later used
                                          it for the scarves as well.

                                          I also use the mc in the thick mixture to add to my �recipe glue� for
                                          bookbinding purposes.

                                          I mostly use methyl cellulose for the silk scarves because the carageenan
                                          breaks down too quickly in the Summer heat here. I do most of them outside
                                          in a screen tent, then move the tank inside to my second bedroom for the
                                          Winter.

                                          I got the chemical names and numbers from the MSDS sheets. I was no t able
                                          to find on e for EarthGuild.

                                          The MC�s with the ammonia and vinegar have the advantage of thickening
                                          immediately � within 15 minutes � but if you are not in a hurry, the other
                                          ones work fine.

                                          I have used all of them at different times. All of them have different
                                          �secret� proprietary ingredients which is why some with the same chemical
                                          name need ammonia and some don�t.

                                          Roger George is a movie effects company which I found accidentally, and
                                          they use the mc to make slime for horror movies, so that if the actors get
                                          it in their mouths, there is no taste or smell. The person I talked to
                                          agreed to put 3 pounds in double plastic bags and it fit exactly into a
                                          flat rate box because I told her I didn�t need the jars and that saved on
                                          shipping.

                                          Also, I have not determined whether one is cheaper than the other to use,
                                          because even though they are priced per pound, they have different degrees
                                          of density per brand, same with the carageenan, so I would have to measure
                                          out the tablespoons per pound to determine that, which I have not done yet.

                                          --
                                          Regards,
                                          Aaron Salik

                                          Talas
                                          330 Morgan Ave
                                          Brooklyn NY 11211
                                          212-219-0770 Phone
                                          212-219-0735 Fax
                                          http://talasonline.com
                                          http://talasonline.blogspot.com/


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • George Reynolds
                                          Sohail Do you know anything about the source of ALCO? Is it for example derived from tree resin? Thanks George Sent from my iPod
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Sep 20 6:15 AM
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                                            Sohail
                                            Do you know anything about the source of ALCO? Is it for example derived from tree resin?
                                            Thanks
                                            George


                                            Sent from my iPod
                                          • Joan & Bob Newman
                                            Hi Kathryn, So nice to hear from Pakistan. Peace through marbling. Is there another name for ALCO? ...   hi. i m sohail from Karachi Pakistan.  i use textile
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Sep 21 8:44 AM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hi Kathryn, So nice to hear from Pakistan. Peace through marbling. Is there another name for ALCO?

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                               




                                              hi. i m sohail from Karachi Pakistan.  i use textile gum called "ALCO" for sizing(water for marbling) i use one tablespoon in two litre water then mix it. leave it for half an hour then u can use. bye

                                              ________________________________
                                              From: kathrynfanelli < kathrynfanelli@... >
                                              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 10:16 PM
                                              Subject: [Marbling] Re: methyl cellulose


                                               
                                              Greetings all,

                                              Over the summer I purchased a large quantity of methyl cel from Talas not realizing it was a different form of MC. I normally use the ProChem methyl cel M112 which is the type that uses ammonia & vinegar. It also sets up in an hour so it's much faster than the Talas brand which says in their instruction takes 3 hours. I was unable to get answers as to the best way to prepare the Talas methyl cel for marbling by phoning them.

                                              I am in the middle of preparing it at the moment but because I have children and an interrupted day, I must leave the studio with my 5 gallons unsure of what to do.

                                              If there is anyone with advice on preparing please reply.

                                              I mixed 17.5 TBS to 5 gal room temp water using an electric paint mixer wand.

                                              Thanks for your help!

                                              Kathryn

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • kathryn fanelli
                                              Hello Joan & Bob, I am unfamiliar with ALCO. Perhaps the gentleman from Pakistan will be able to help you. Best,   Kathryn  ________________________________
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Sep 21 8:49 AM
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                                                Hello Joan & Bob,

                                                I am unfamiliar with ALCO. Perhaps the gentleman from Pakistan will be able to help you.

                                                Best,
                                                 
                                                Kathryn 





                                                ________________________________
                                                From: Joan & Bob Newman <rfnewman1@...>
                                                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 11:44 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: methyl cellulose


                                                 
                                                Hi Kathryn, So nice to hear from Pakistan. Peace through marbling. Is there another name for ALCO?

                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                 

                                                hi. i m sohail from Karachi Pakistan.  i use textile gum called "ALCO" for sizing(water for marbling) i use one tablespoon in two litre water then mix it. leave it for half an hour then u can use. bye

                                                ________________________________
                                                From: kathrynfanelli < kathrynfanelli@... >
                                                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 10:16 PM
                                                Subject: [Marbling] Re: methyl cellulose

                                                 
                                                Greetings all,

                                                Over the summer I purchased a large quantity of methyl cel from Talas not realizing it was a different form of MC. I normally use the ProChem methyl cel M112 which is the type that uses ammonia & vinegar. It also sets up in an hour so it's much faster than the Talas brand which says in their instruction takes 3 hours. I was unable to get answers as to the best way to prepare the Talas methyl cel for marbling by phoning them.

                                                I am in the middle of preparing it at the moment but because I have children and an interrupted day, I must leave the studio with my 5 gallons unsure of what to do.

                                                If there is anyone with advice on preparing please reply.

                                                I mixed 17.5 TBS to 5 gal room temp water using an electric paint mixer wand.

                                                Thanks for your help!

                                                Kathryn

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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