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Re: [Marbling] My question

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  • Cynthia Eaton
    I think that your carrageenan recipe might need changing. I use 22 cc carrageenan powder, to 3.78 liters cold water. Mixed with an electric blender for 60
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 31 7:06 PM
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      I think that your carrageenan recipe might need changing. I use 22 cc
      carrageenan powder, to 3.78 liters cold water. Mixed with an electric
      blender for 60 seconds. I do this by mixing about 30% of the water with the
      22 cc carrageenan, then after that is well blended I combine it with the
      remaining water. then let it sit at room temperature for 24 hours.

      I think it is important to let the carrageenan age for 24 hours so each
      particle absorbs the maximum amount if water possible. The size should be
      smooth with no lumps, it will be thin and pour easily.

      Good luck.

      On Jul 31, 2012 6:44 PM, "woshidaawu" <woshidaawu@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > In the past few days, I was so busy that have no time on the Internet.I
      continue to do experiment under the help of everyone.But I failed again.I
      decided to reconfigure the carrageenan.Determine the the carrageenan
      correct first, and then study the color.
      > 20cc Carrageenan+1200ml water �� Stir �� +500ml �� Stir �� Put it in the
      fridge for four hours.
      >
      > Is this right��
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Cynthia Eaton
      Your paint should be thinned with water to the consistency of milk. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 31 7:07 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Your paint should be thinned with water to the consistency of milk.
        On Jul 31, 2012 6:44 PM, "woshidaawu" <woshidaawu@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        >
        > In the past few days, I was so busy that have no time on the Internet.I
        > continue to do experiment under the help of everyone.But I failed again.I
        > decided to reconfigure the carrageenan.Determine the the carrageenan
        > correct first, and then study the color.
        > 20cc Carrageenan+1200ml water �� Stir �� +500ml �� Stir �� Put it in the
        > fridge for four hours.
        >
        > Is this right��
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • woshidaawu
        Thank you for your advice.I m going to do the experiment immediately .I diluted the paint with water.How to determine the concentration of milk? By experience?
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 31 7:27 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Thank you for your advice.I'm going to do the experiment immediately
          .I diluted the paint with water.How to determine the concentration of milk? By experience?



          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Eaton <cre8ton@...> wrote:
          >
          > I think that your carrageenan recipe might need changing. I use 22 cc
          > carrageenan powder, to 3.78 liters cold water. Mixed with an electric
          > blender for 60 seconds. I do this by mixing about 30% of the water with the
          > 22 cc carrageenan, then after that is well blended I combine it with the
          > remaining water. then let it sit at room temperature for 24 hours.
          >
          > I think it is important to let the carrageenan age for 24 hours so each
          > particle absorbs the maximum amount if water possible. The size should be
          > smooth with no lumps, it will be thin and pour easily.
          >
          > Good luck.
          >
          > On Jul 31, 2012 6:44 PM, "woshidaawu" <woshidaawu@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > In the past few days, I was so busy that have no time on the Internet.I
          > continue to do experiment under the help of everyone.But I failed again.I
          > decided to reconfigure the carrageenan.Determine the the carrageenan
          > correct first, and then study the color.
          > > 20cc Carrageenan+1200ml water £¬ Stir £¬ +500ml £¬ Stir £¬ Put it in the
          > fridge for four hours.
          > >
          > > Is this right£¿
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Cynthia Eaton
          Thickness of milk is very thin almost like water. Experience and experimentation will be important. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 31 7:31 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Thickness of milk is very thin almost like water. Experience and
            experimentation will be important.
            On Jul 31, 2012 7:27 PM, "woshidaawu" <woshidaawu@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            >
            > Thank you for your advice.I'm going to do the experiment immediately
            > .I diluted the paint with water.How to determine the concentration of
            > milk? By experience?
            >
            > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Eaton <cre8ton@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I think that your carrageenan recipe might need changing. I use 22 cc
            > > carrageenan powder, to 3.78 liters cold water. Mixed with an electric
            > > blender for 60 seconds. I do this by mixing about 30% of the water with
            > the
            > > 22 cc carrageenan, then after that is well blended I combine it with the
            > > remaining water. then let it sit at room temperature for 24 hours.
            > >
            > > I think it is important to let the carrageenan age for 24 hours so each
            > > particle absorbs the maximum amount if water possible. The size should be
            > > smooth with no lumps, it will be thin and pour easily.
            > >
            > > Good luck.
            > >
            > > On Jul 31, 2012 6:44 PM, "woshidaawu" <woshidaawu@...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > In the past few days, I was so busy that have no time on the Internet.I
            > > continue to do experiment under the help of everyone.But I failed again.I
            > > decided to reconfigure the carrageenan.Determine the the carrageenan
            > > correct first, and then study the color.
            > > > 20cc Carrageenan+1200ml water �� Stir �� +500ml �� Stir �� Put it in
            > the
            > > fridge for four hours.
            > > >
            > > > Is this right��
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • irisnevins
            While I understand many like to use cold water to blend, and the 24 hour waiting period, and it works for them, I wouldn t think of it as a rule . If I let
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 31 8:40 PM
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              While I understand many like to use cold water to blend, and the 24 hour waiting period, and it works for them, I wouldn't think of it as a "rule". If I let mine sit that long it is often weakened, esp. in summer, even using cold water. It depends on lots of things, some too subtle to ever understand. I like to do mine 12-17 hours ahead these days, and with hot water. For example, last night I made the size up ...1 TBS blended with two quarts of hot tap water.... not from a water softener, which can wreck things. Or use a quart, add another quart. The second can be cold or hot, as long as the lumps are pretty much out. Any small ones will dissolve overnight. I blended it at about 6:00PM, all hot water, very hard tap water, and marbled about 10:00AM quite successfully matching about 30 papers with no trouble at all.

              All I am saying, if cold water/24 hours works for you, do it, if four hours works, do that. Having never been taught to marble, I used to actually get up about 7:00AM, blend it well with all hot tap water, very hard water, and marble on a still warm size at about 9:00AM. I was even still picking out a lump here and there but it worked anyway, great fine lines.

              With marbling, at times, all the "rules" fly out the window and what worked one day doesn't work the next. Winging it for each marbling day, along a few guidelines, and being adaptable, that seems to work for many of us. I have been at it over 34 years, as my main livelihood as well, and it usually works just fine, though there are some really rotten marbling days here and there. We just accept that sometimes you just dump it all and start over the next day, do the same exact things and it decides to work!

              If you use cold water, perhaps then a longer wait time is needed, though I have done it in 12 hours, but a lot may depend on water chemistry as well, things that are too deep for my brain to start analyzing! When I first started, 1978, we had to boil the dried seaweed and strain it forever. So I never thought to use anything but hot water since. I have tried a few times with cold and a longer wait period, but think hot water blending works better. For me anyway. Lots of different things can work in marbling. Try everything, until you find what works for you. We all have slightly different ways and it's great we can present them here.

              Iris Nevins
              www.marblingpaper.com


              On 07/31/12, Cynthia Eaton<cre8ton@...> wrote:

              I think that your carrageenan recipe might need changing. I use 22 cc
              carrageenan powder, to 3.78 liters cold water. Mixed with an electric
              blender for 60 seconds. I do this by mixing about 30% of the water with the
              22 cc carrageenan, then after that is well blended I combine it with the
              remaining water. then let it sit at room temperature for 24 hours.

              I think it is important to let the carrageenan age for 24 hours so each
              particle absorbs the maximum amount if water possible. The size should be
              smooth with no lumps, it will be thin and pour easily.

              Good luck.

              On Jul 31, 2012 6:44 PM, "woshidaawu" <woshidaawu@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > In the past few days, I was so busy that have no time on the Internet.I
              continue to do experiment under the help of everyone.But I failed again.I
              decided to reconfigure the carrageenan.Determine the the carrageenan
              correct first, and then study the color.
              > 20cc Carrageenan+1200ml water �� Stir �� +500ml �� Stir �� Put it in the
              fridge for four hours.
              >
              > Is this right��
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

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            • D or Jer Guffey
              Just to prove we all do what works best for us, I mix my caragheean first thing in the morning with cool tap water and an emersion blender. By the time I ve
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 31 10:05 PM
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                Just to prove we all do what works best for us, I mix my caragheean first thing in the morning with cool tap water and an emersion blender. By the time I've set up my table, mixed my paints and get out all of my rakes and combs, the size is ready to marble. The emersion (hand held) blender removes all the lumps. My only problem is waiting for my garage to warm up to 60 degrees F. before marbling. If my paint is sinking, it is because the area is too cool. I make the size slightly thicker than needed so I can add some hot water to the bath to bring it to the right consistency and also helps with my cooler working area.

                d.guffey




                From: irisnevins
                Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:40 PM
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] My question



                While I understand many like to use cold water to blend, and the 24 hour waiting period, and it works for them, I wouldn't think of it as a "rule". If I let mine sit that long it is often weakened, esp. in summer, even using cold water. It depends on lots of things, some too subtle to ever understand. I like to do mine 12-17 hours ahead these days, and with hot water. For example, last night I made the size up ...1 TBS blended with two quarts of hot tap water.... not from a water softener, which can wreck things. Or use a quart, add another quart. The second can be cold or hot, as long as the lumps are pretty much out. Any small ones will dissolve overnight. I blended it at about 6:00PM, all hot water, very hard tap water, and marbled about 10:00AM quite successfully matching about 30 papers with no trouble at all.

                All I am saying, if cold water/24 hours works for you, do it, if four hours works, do that. Having never been taught to marble, I used to actually get up about 7:00AM, blend it well with all hot tap water, very hard water, and marble on a still warm size at about 9:00AM. I was even still picking out a lump here and there but it worked anyway, great fine lines.

                With marbling, at times, all the "rules" fly out the window and what worked one day doesn't work the next. Winging it for each marbling day, along a few guidelines, and being adaptable, that seems to work for many of us. I have been at it over 34 years, as my main livelihood as well, and it usually works just fine, though there are some really rotten marbling days here and there. We just accept that sometimes you just dump it all and start over the next day, do the same exact things and it decides to work!

                If you use cold water, perhaps then a longer wait time is needed, though I have done it in 12 hours, but a lot may depend on water chemistry as well, things that are too deep for my brain to start analyzing! When I first started, 1978, we had to boil the dried seaweed and strain it forever. So I never thought to use anything but hot water since. I have tried a few times with cold and a longer wait period, but think hot water blending works better. For me anyway. Lots of different things can work in marbling. Try everything, until you find what works for you. We all have slightly different ways and it's great we can present them here.

                Iris Nevins
                www.marblingpaper.com


                On 07/31/12, Cynthia Eaton<cre8ton@...> wrote:

                I think that your carrageenan recipe might need changing. I use 22 cc
                carrageenan powder, to 3.78 liters cold water. Mixed with an electric
                blender for 60 seconds. I do this by mixing about 30% of the water with the
                22 cc carrageenan, then after that is well blended I combine it with the
                remaining water. then let it sit at room temperature for 24 hours.

                I think it is important to let the carrageenan age for 24 hours so each
                particle absorbs the maximum amount if water possible. The size should be
                smooth with no lumps, it will be thin and pour easily.

                Good luck.

                On Jul 31, 2012 6:44 PM, "woshidaawu" <woshidaawu@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > In the past few days, I was so busy that have no time on the Internet.I
                continue to do experiment under the help of everyone.But I failed again.I
                decided to reconfigure the carrageenan.Determine the the carrageenan
                correct first, and then study the color.
                > 20cc Carrageenan+1200ml water �� Stir �� +500ml �� Stir �� Put it in the
                fridge for four hours.
                >
                > Is this right��
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • irisnevins
                All rules fly out the window when marbling. We all work differently. I too make mine a little thick, it is easy to add water if needed. Too thin, you are
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 1, 2012
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                  All rules fly out the window when marbling. We all work differently. I too make mine a little thick, it is easy to add water if needed. Too thin, you are stuck. I do have an immersion blender I can try too with cold water, just curious. The fresher the size, I find it works better. I like marbling in 60 degrees, the colors are so crisp and bright, the size stays nice too. What was best about my early AM size making (hot water) and about an hour or two later marbling, was you don't have that issue of wanting to marble one day but thinking....drat I have to wait 24 hours. When I do wait overnight, I kind of haphazardly dump 4 heaped TBS. into a two quart blender, whiz it up, it has some lumps still. Then dump into a bucket, add three more blender containerfuls of hot water, stir and forget it. No lumps in the AM.

                  Having never been taught to marble, and there were barely any books out ( I was given a xerox of Rosamond Loring's book, and the Dryad Leaflet) and no such thing as the web yet, I just winged it. Boiling seaweed, making a mess. Just lots of guesswork until things worked. The first marbler I ever met was Faith Harrison. She and I and Don Guyot, Chris Weimann, a handful of others were included in the book American Decorative Papermakers in the early 80s. Some of us, myself included, had no idea there were other marblers out there before that book was out. All of us self taught, we had very different ways of working. I remember Faith coming to my house for a few days back then and we marbled. She said..."You can't marble like that!!". So I showed her I could. We then adopted lots of ideas from each other. I said one morning...LET'S MARBLE.... and whizzed up the size and went to skim an hour later, it was still warm.... she was floored that it worked so well.

                  When I had a smaller house, and rented a studio space in town years back, since I didn't feel like running in every day, I had a helper who was great at size making. She'd go in and alum on Thursday. for me, dry the papers, go in Friday, take them down and stack them. Then make a size concentrate and leave in the fridge til Monday when I would come in and marble Mon. - Wed. She'd have numerous milk containers full of concentrate, I'd take one each AM and add hot water and go marble. It lasted up to a week in the fridge, sometimes longer, I'd leave it go to another week at times when I was less busy. back then I was marbling 200-300 sheets a week, selling all of it, but the economy has put an end to all that! There are way fewer small presses selling expensive limited run books these days, but I still work for many smaller hand bookbinders, doing many restoration style papers, which is my real love. I enjoy marbling more this way really. I was a machine before, truly, making hundreds of the same paper over and over.
                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com

                  On 08/01/12, D or Jer Guffey<dguff@...> wrote:

                  Just to prove we all do what works best for us, I mix my caragheean first thing in the morning with cool tap water and an emersion blender. By the time I've set up my table, mixed my paints and get out all of my rakes and combs, the size is ready to marble. The emersion (hand held) blender removes all the lumps. My only problem is waiting for my garage to warm up to 60 degrees F. before marbling. If my paint is sinking, it is because the area is too cool. I make the size slightly thicker than needed so I can add some hot water to the bath to bring it to the right consistency and also helps with my cooler working area.

                  d.guffey




                  From: irisnevins
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:40 PM
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] My question



                  While I understand many like to use cold water to blend, and the 24 hour waiting period, and it works for them, I wouldn't think of it as a "rule". If I let mine sit that long it is often weakened, esp. in summer, even using cold water. It depends on lots of things, some too subtle to ever understand. I like to do mine 12-17 hours ahead these days, and with hot water. For example, last night I made the size up ...1 TBS blended with two quarts of hot tap water.... not from a water softener, which can wreck things. Or use a quart, add another quart. The second can be cold or hot, as long as the lumps are pretty much out. Any small ones will dissolve overnight. I blended it at about 6:00PM, all hot water, very hard tap water, and marbled about 10:00AM quite successfully matching about 30 papers with no trouble at all.

                  All I am saying, if cold water/24 hours works for you, do it, if four hours works, do that. Having never been taught to marble, I used to actually get up about 7:00AM, blend it well with all hot tap water, very hard water, and marble on a still warm size at about 9:00AM. I was even still picking out a lump here and there but it worked anyway, great fine lines.

                  With marbling, at times, all the "rules" fly out the window and what worked one day doesn't work the next. Winging it for each marbling day, along a few guidelines, and being adaptable, that seems to work for many of us. I have been at it over 34 years, as my main livelihood as well, and it usually works just fine, though there are some really rotten marbling days here and there. We just accept that sometimes you just dump it all and start over the next day, do the same exact things and it decides to work!

                  If you use cold water, perhaps then a longer wait time is needed, though I have done it in 12 hours, but a lot may depend on water chemistry as well, things that are too deep for my brain to start analyzing! When I first started, 1978, we had to boil the dried seaweed and strain it forever. So I never thought to use anything but hot water since. I have tried a few times with cold and a longer wait period, but think hot water blending works better. For me anyway. Lots of different things can work in marbling. Try everything, until you find what works for you. We all have slightly different ways and it's great we can present them here.

                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com


                  On 07/31/12, Cynthia Eaton<cre8ton@...> wrote:

                  I think that your carrageenan recipe might need changing. I use 22 cc
                  carrageenan powder, to 3.78 liters cold water. Mixed with an electric
                  blender for 60 seconds. I do this by mixing about 30% of the water with the
                  22 cc carrageenan, then after that is well blended I combine it with the
                  remaining water. then let it sit at room temperature for 24 hours.

                  I think it is important to let the carrageenan age for 24 hours so each
                  particle absorbs the maximum amount if water possible. The size should be
                  smooth with no lumps, it will be thin and pour easily.

                  Good luck.

                  On Jul 31, 2012 6:44 PM, "woshidaawu" <woshidaawu@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In the past few days, I was so busy that have no time on the Internet.I
                  continue to do experiment under the help of everyone.But I failed again.I
                  decided to reconfigure the carrageenan.Determine the the carrageenan
                  correct first, and then study the color.
                  > 20cc Carrageenan+1200ml water �� Stir �� +500ml �� Stir �� Put it in the
                  fridge for four hours.
                  >
                  > Is this right��
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  ------------------------------------

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                • Lucila Nunes de Vargas
                  Can´t it be the water quality? I noticed when I use rain water, in my case with methocell it works better than tap water.   ________________________________
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 1, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Can´t it be the water quality? I noticed when I use rain water, in my case with methocell it works better than tap water.
                     


                    ________________________________
                    De: woshidaawu <woshidaawu@...>
                    Para: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    Enviadas: Terça-feira, 31 de Julho de 2012 23:27
                    Assunto: [Marbling] Re: My question


                     

                    Thank you for your advice.I'm going to do the experiment immediately
                    .I diluted the paint with water.How to determine the concentration of milk? By experience?

                    --- In mailto:Marbling%40yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Eaton <cre8ton@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I think that your carrageenan recipe might need changing. I use 22 cc
                    > carrageenan powder, to 3.78 liters cold water. Mixed with an electric
                    > blender for 60 seconds. I do this by mixing about 30% of the water with the
                    > 22 cc carrageenan, then after that is well blended I combine it with the
                    > remaining water. then let it sit at room temperature for 24 hours.
                    >
                    > I think it is important to let the carrageenan age for 24 hours so each
                    > particle absorbs the maximum amount if water possible. The size should be
                    > smooth with no lumps, it will be thin and pour easily.
                    >
                    > Good luck.
                    >
                    > On Jul 31, 2012 6:44 PM, "woshidaawu" <woshidaawu@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > In the past few days, I was so busy that have no time on the Internet.I
                    > continue to do experiment under the help of everyone.But I failed again.I
                    > decided to reconfigure the carrageenan.Determine the the carrageenan
                    > correct first, and then study the color.
                    > > 20cc Carrageenan+1200ml water £¬ Stir £¬ +500ml £¬ Stir £¬ Put it in the
                    > fridge for four hours.
                    > >
                    > > Is this right£¿
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • irisnevins
                    Can be anything! When i collected rain water, and compared, the hard tap water was better, with carrageenan anyway. It may not be so for everyone! Iris Nevins
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 1, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Can be anything! When i collected rain water, and compared, the hard tap water was better, with carrageenan anyway. It may not be so for everyone!
                      Iris Nevins
                      www.marblingpaper.com



                      On 08/01/12, Lucila Nunes de Vargas<lucilanv@...> wrote:

                      Can´t it be the water quality? I noticed when I use rain water, in my case with methocell it works better than tap water.



                      ________________________________
                      De: woshidaawu <woshidaawu@...>
                      Para: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      Enviadas: Terça-feira, 31 de Julho de 2012 23:27
                      Assunto: [Marbling] Re: My question




                      Thank you for your advice.I'm going to do the experiment immediately
                      .I diluted the paint with water.How to determine the concentration of milk? By experience?

                      --- In mailto:Marbling%40yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Eaton <cre8ton@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I think that your carrageenan recipe might need changing. I use 22 cc
                      > carrageenan powder, to 3.78 liters cold water. Mixed with an electric
                      > blender for 60 seconds. I do this by mixing about 30% of the water with the
                      > 22 cc carrageenan, then after that is well blended I combine it with the
                      > remaining water. then let it sit at room temperature for 24 hours.
                      >
                      > I think it is important to let the carrageenan age for 24 hours so each
                      > particle absorbs the maximum amount if water possible. The size should be
                      > smooth with no lumps, it will be thin and pour easily.
                      >
                      > Good luck.
                      >
                      > On Jul 31, 2012 6:44 PM, "woshidaawu" <woshidaawu@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > In the past few days, I was so busy that have no time on the Internet.I
                      > continue to do experiment under the help of everyone.But I failed again.I
                      > decided to reconfigure the carrageenan.Determine the the carrageenan
                      > correct first, and then study the color.
                      > > 20cc Carrageenan+1200ml water £¬ Stir £¬ +500ml £¬ Stir £¬ Put it in the
                      > fridge for four hours.
                      > >
                      > > Is this right£¿
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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