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Re: Papier Royal Marbled paper story

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  • jemiljan
    Dear Vito, The notion that Macé Ruette invented marbling- or even specific patterns- is in no way universally accepted. Appeals to various authorities or
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 12, 2012
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      Dear Vito,

      The notion that Macé Ruette "invented" marbling- or even specific patterns- is in no way universally accepted. Appeals to various "authorities" or years as a practitioner aside, this notion has been shown to be comprised of far more fanciful folklore than actual research. Richard Wolfe identified these stories as originating from Jean La Caille, and they were written some half a century after Ruette's death. See Richard Wolfe, Marbled Paper, pp. 36-7. There is no doubt that Ruette was an important bookbinder, and he may have also been engaged in early marbling in France, but these stories claiming he "invented" marbling or attributing basic combed designs to him is clearly an exaggeration meant to embellish Ruette's reputation.

      Furthermore, the combed designs attributed to Ruette quite clearly have an earlier origin in India, Iran, and Turkey. Currently, I am working on translating several Persian language sources on abri papers (the word "ebru" is never used in any historical primary textual source before the mid 19th c.). When considered together with several concretely datable examples of marbled papers culled from various manuscripts, this evidence confirms these advances took place in India at the turn of the 16th-17th century. These proved so popular that they spread very rapidly, a paradigm that effectively challenges prevailing ideas about the development of the art marbling.

      Best Regards,

      Jake Benson


      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Here you'll find everything you need to know to get started
      > written by Prof. Gabriel Mandel
      >
      > http://www.puntosufi.it/TEMI6.HTM
      >
      > read please about the famous bookbinder Mac� Ruette ( XVII century)
      >
      > greetings
      >
      > Vito
      >
      > https://www.facebook.com/marblingpaper
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "anthonianthonianthoni" <anthonianthonianthoni@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Well then, may know the titles of the books?
      > > Regards
      > > Anthony
      > >
      > > "--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Dear sirs
      > > >
      > > > I read your comments on my page of the History of marbled paper. Perhaps you should investigate the issue better. I am a librarian and this information can be found in books that you totally ignored the existence. I worked for 2 years at the IL PAPIRO of Corso Cavour in Florence in the late 70's, so, believe me, I do not have much to learn from anyone and I had good teachers and expert abot thhe marbled paper world.
      > > >
      > > > regards Vito
      > > >
      > > > http://www.papier-royal.com/index_en.html
      > > >
      > > > info@
      > > >
      > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/papier-royal/
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
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      > > >
      > > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Moreover, they seem to date the papers by the printing date of the books. Again, they should know better.
      > > > >
      > > > > Susanne Krause
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Cynthia Eaton
      Not to split hairs, but it I did make a point that it was not a direct translation. To a native English speaker my intended point is that some phrases are
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 12, 2012
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        Not to split hairs, but it I did make a point that it was not a direct
        translation. To a native English speaker my intended point is that some
        phrases are understood to be used traditionaly in a specific order. Hence
        the use of "to and fro"as an example. And as an aside I will note that
        there is an association between "go and come", your Turkish translation,
        and "to and fro" does indeed relate in English. Go and To have a close
        relation in the sense that they indicate a sense of moving away in
        direction, Come and Fro share relation in the sense of a return or arrival
        from afar. Since semantics are becoming quite the issue in this thread I
        suppose I could have just started off using "come and go" but it didn't
        come to mind, pardon me.
        On Mar 12, 2012 6:33 PM, "jemiljan" <jemiljan@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Vito,
        >
        > The notion that Mac�� Ruette "invented" marbling- or even specific
        patterns- is in no way universally accepted. Appeals to various
        "authorities" or years as a practitioner aside, this notion has been shown
        to be comprised of far more fanciful folklore than actual research. Richard
        Wolfe identified these stories as originating from Jean La Caille, and they
        were written some half a century after Ruette's death. See Richard Wolfe,
        Marbled Paper, pp. 36-7. There is no doubt that Ruette was an important
        bookbinder, and he may have also been engaged in early marbling in France,
        but these stories claiming he "invented" marbling or attributing basic
        combed designs to him is clearly an exaggeration meant to embellish
        Ruette's reputation.
        >
        > Furthermore, the combed designs attributed to Ruette quite clearly have
        an earlier origin in India, Iran, and Turkey. Currently, I am working on
        translating several Persian language sources on abri papers (the word
        "ebru" is never used in any historical primary textual source before the
        mid 19th c.). When considered together with several concretely datable
        examples of marbled papers culled from various manuscripts, this evidence
        confirms these advances took place in India at the turn of the 16th-17th
        century. These proved so popular that they spread very rapidly, a paradigm
        that effectively challenges prevailing ideas about the development of the
        art marbling.
        >
        > Best Regards,
        >
        > Jake Benson
        >
        >
        > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Here you'll find everything you need to know to get started
        > > written by Prof. Gabriel Mandel
        > >
        > > http://www.puntosufi.it/TEMI6.HTM
        > >
        > > read please about the famous bookbinder Mac��� Ruette ( XVII century)
        > >
        > > greetings
        > >
        > > Vito
        > >
        > > https://www.facebook.com/marblingpaper
        >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "anthonianthonianthoni"
        <anthonianthonianthoni@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Well then, may know the titles of the books?
        > > > Regards
        > > > Anthony
        > > >
        > > > "--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@>
        wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Dear sirs
        > > > >
        > > > > I read your comments on my page of the History of marbled paper.
        Perhaps you should investigate the issue better. I am a librarian and this
        information can be found in books that you totally ignored the existence. I
        worked for 2 years at the IL PAPIRO of Corso Cavour in Florence in the late
        70's, so, believe me, I do not have much to learn from anyone and I had
        good teachers and expert abot thhe marbled paper world.
        > > > >
        > > > > regards Vito
        > > > >
        > > > > http://www.papier-royal.com/index_en.html
        > > > >
        > > > > info@
        > > > >
        > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/papier-royal/
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@>
        wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Moreover, they seem to date the papers by the printing date of
        the books. Again, they should know better.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Susanne Krause
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Papier-Royal
        Dear Jake Thanks for your very interesting remarks and for your education and non-polemical tone. All these posts were created by the fact that I have read
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 13, 2012
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          Dear Jake

          Thanks for your very interesting remarks and for your education and non-polemical tone. All these posts were created by the fact that I have read various posts that gossiped inappropriately after visiting my site section History.
          I honestly do not like the bickering. Some members of this beautifull group have a little exaggeration in their writings. Now I'm going through my papers, it's better, because between the saying and doing tehre is a lot of difference.
          " Storia magistra vitae" ( The story is teacher of life,said ancient Romans ) but the tone of "Professor" used by some members of group to denigrate the work of others, it seemed rather exaggerated and frankly not at all polite.

          The True Story? Posterity will judge it to.

          kind regards
          Vito

          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "jemiljan" <jemiljan@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Vito,
          >
          > The notion that Macé Ruette "invented" marbling- or even specific patterns- is in no way universally accepted. Appeals to various "authorities" or years as a practitioner aside, this notion has been shown to be comprised of far more fanciful folklore than actual research. Richard Wolfe identified these stories as originating from Jean La Caille, and they were written some half a century after Ruette's death. See Richard Wolfe, Marbled Paper, pp. 36-7. There is no doubt that Ruette was an important bookbinder, and he may have also been engaged in early marbling in France, but these stories claiming he "invented" marbling or attributing basic combed designs to him is clearly an exaggeration meant to embellish Ruette's reputation.
          >
          > Furthermore, the combed designs attributed to Ruette quite clearly have an earlier origin in India, Iran, and Turkey. Currently, I am working on translating several Persian language sources on abri papers (the word "ebru" is never used in any historical primary textual source before the mid 19th c.). When considered together with several concretely datable examples of marbled papers culled from various manuscripts, this evidence confirms these advances took place in India at the turn of the 16th-17th century. These proved so popular that they spread very rapidly, a paradigm that effectively challenges prevailing ideas about the development of the art marbling.
          >
          > Best Regards,
          >
          > Jake Benson
          >
          >
          > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Here you'll find everything you need to know to get started
          > > written by Prof. Gabriel Mandel
          > >
          > > http://www.puntosufi.it/TEMI6.HTM
          > >
          > > read please about the famous bookbinder Mac� Ruette ( XVII century)
          > >
          > > greetings
          > >
          > > Vito
          > >
          > > https://www.facebook.com/marblingpaper
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "anthonianthonianthoni" <anthonianthonianthoni@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Well then, may know the titles of the books?
          > > > Regards
          > > > Anthony
          > > >
          > > > "--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Dear sirs
          > > > >
          > > > > I read your comments on my page of the History of marbled paper. Perhaps you should investigate the issue better. I am a librarian and this information can be found in books that you totally ignored the existence. I worked for 2 years at the IL PAPIRO of Corso Cavour in Florence in the late 70's, so, believe me, I do not have much to learn from anyone and I had good teachers and expert abot thhe marbled paper world.
          > > > >
          > > > > regards Vito
          > > > >
          > > > > http://www.papier-royal.com/index_en.html
          > > > >
          > > > > info@
          > > > >
          > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/papier-royal/
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Moreover, they seem to date the papers by the printing date of the books. Again, they should know better.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Susanne Krause
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
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