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Re: Papier Royal Marbled paper story

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  • Papier-Royal
    Please take a look to some my marbled papers on Flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/papier-royal/ no oil paints, bever used. The materials used are the same as
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 12, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Please take a look to some my marbled papers on Flickr

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/papier-royal/

      no oil paints, bever used.


      The materials used are the same as in 1600
      Carragheen moss seaweed, powdered and boiled.
      The colors are made with natural indelible pigments
      that don't require pre-treatment paper with alum.
      Fabriano paper or Fedrigoni pH neutral (acid free) g / 100-115 sqm

      Vito





      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "D or Jer Guffey" <dguff@...> wrote:
      >
      > If you are marbling with oil paints (instead of water based paints) there is no need to alum. Of course you won't get the same fine lines, but you can duplicate the patterns. I marbled in oils until I changed to acrylics.
      >
      > d.guffey
      >
      >
      > From: Papier-Royal
      > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 12:58 PM
      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Papier Royal Marbled paper story
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ....i never used alum to marble papers. ( I started in 1978 )
      >
      > That's all ...have you all a fine job
      >
      > Vito
      >
      > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Prepress <typenut@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Where are still secrets left?
      > >
      > > Ludwig
      > >
      > > Buntpapierer
      > > ___________________________________
      > > Hand Bookbinding and Tooling in French and German Tradition
      > > 310.217.0400
      > > www.Handpresse.com
      > > www.KrauseIntaglio.com
      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > On Mar 12, 2012, at 12:09 PM, D or Jer Guffey wrote:
      > >
      > > > copy the text, take it to Google translate and translate it from
      > > > Italian to
      > > > English. I just did this and there are no secrets revealed!
      > > >
      > > > d.guffey
      > > >
      > > > --------------------------------------------------
      > > > From: "Cynthia Eaton" <cre8ton@>
      > > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 11:35 AM
      > > > To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Papier Royal Marbled paper story
      > > >
      > > >> This looks to be a great resource, is there an English translation
      > > >> available? I'm very interested on this thread. Thanks
      > > >> On Mar 12, 2012 10:27 AM, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@>
      > > >> wrote:
      > > >>
      > > >>> **
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>> Here you'll find everything you need to know to get started
      > > >>> written by Prof. Gabriel Mandel
      > > >>>
      > > >>> http://www.puntosufi.it/TEMI6.HTM
      > > >>>
      > > >>> read please about the famous bookbinder Macè Ruette ( XVII century)
      > > >>>
      > > >>> greetings
      > > >>>
      > > >>> Vito
      > > >>>
      > > >>> https://www.facebook.com/marblingpaper
      > > >>>
      > > >>> --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "anthonianthonianthoni"
      > > >>> <anthonianthonianthoni@> wrote:
      > > >>>>
      > > >>>> Well then, may know the titles of the books?
      > > >>>> Regards
      > > >>>> Anthony
      > > >>>>
      > > >>>> "--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@>
      > > >>>> wrote:
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>> Dear sirs
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>> I read your comments on my page of the History of marbled paper.
      > > >>> Perhaps you should investigate the issue better. I am a librarian
      > > >>> and
      > > >>> this
      > > >>> information can be found in books that you totally ignored the
      > > >>> existence.
      > > >>> I
      > > >>> worked for 2 years at the IL PAPIRO of Corso Cavour in Florence in
      > > >>> the
      > > >>> late
      > > >>> 70's, so, believe me, I do not have much to learn from anyone and
      > > >>> I had
      > > >>> good teachers and expert abot thhe marbled paper world.
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>> regards Vito
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>> http://www.papier-royal.com/index_en.html
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>> info@
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/papier-royal/
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>> --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de"
      > > >>>>> <studio@>
      > > >>> wrote:
      > > >>>>>>
      > > >>>>>> Moreover, they seem to date the papers by the printing date of
      > > >>>>>> the
      > > >>> books. Again, they should know better.
      > > >>>>>>
      > > >>>>>> Susanne Krause
      > > >>>>>>
      > > >>>>>
      > > >>>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >> ------------------------------------
      > > >>
      > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Nancy Akerly
      Gorgeous papers! Sent from my iPad Liberty Grove Paper Arts http://web.me.com/nakerly/ ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 12, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Gorgeous papers!

        Sent from my iPad
        Liberty Grove Paper Arts
        http://web.me.com/nakerly/

        On Mar 12, 2012, at 5:37 PM, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Please take a look to some my marbled papers on Flickr
        >
        > http://www.flickr.com/photos/papier-royal/
        >
        > no oil paints, bever used.
        >
        > The materials used are the same as in 1600
        > Carragheen moss seaweed, powdered and boiled.
        > The colors are made with natural indelible pigments
        > that don't require pre-treatment paper with alum.
        > Fabriano paper or Fedrigoni pH neutral (acid free) g / 100-115 sqm
        >
        > Vito
        >
        > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "D or Jer Guffey" <dguff@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > If you are marbling with oil paints (instead of water based paints) there is no need to alum. Of course you won't get the same fine lines, but you can duplicate the patterns. I marbled in oils until I changed to acrylics.
        > >
        > > d.guffey
        > >
        > >
        > > From: Papier-Royal
        > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 12:58 PM
        > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Papier Royal Marbled paper story
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ....i never used alum to marble papers. ( I started in 1978 )
        > >
        > > That's all ...have you all a fine job
        > >
        > > Vito
        > >
        > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Prepress <typenut@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Where are still secrets left?
        > > >
        > > > Ludwig
        > > >
        > > > Buntpapierer
        > > > ___________________________________
        > > > Hand Bookbinding and Tooling in French and German Tradition
        > > > 310.217.0400
        > > > www.Handpresse.com
        > > > www.KrauseIntaglio.com
        > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > On Mar 12, 2012, at 12:09 PM, D or Jer Guffey wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > copy the text, take it to Google translate and translate it from
        > > > > Italian to
        > > > > English. I just did this and there are no secrets revealed!
        > > > >
        > > > > d.guffey
        > > > >
        > > > > --------------------------------------------------
        > > > > From: "Cynthia Eaton" <cre8ton@>
        > > > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 11:35 AM
        > > > > To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Papier Royal Marbled paper story
        > > > >
        > > > >> This looks to be a great resource, is there an English translation
        > > > >> available? I'm very interested on this thread. Thanks
        > > > >> On Mar 12, 2012 10:27 AM, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@>
        > > > >> wrote:
        > > > >>
        > > > >>> **
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> Here you'll find everything you need to know to get started
        > > > >>> written by Prof. Gabriel Mandel
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> http://www.puntosufi.it/TEMI6.HTM
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> read please about the famous bookbinder Macè Ruette ( XVII century)
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> greetings
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> Vito
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> https://www.facebook.com/marblingpaper
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "anthonianthonianthoni"
        > > > >>> <anthonianthonianthoni@> wrote:
        > > > >>>>
        > > > >>>> Well then, may know the titles of the books?
        > > > >>>> Regards
        > > > >>>> Anthony
        > > > >>>>
        > > > >>>> "--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@>
        > > > >>>> wrote:
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>> Dear sirs
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>> I read your comments on my page of the History of marbled paper.
        > > > >>> Perhaps you should investigate the issue better. I am a librarian
        > > > >>> and
        > > > >>> this
        > > > >>> information can be found in books that you totally ignored the
        > > > >>> existence.
        > > > >>> I
        > > > >>> worked for 2 years at the IL PAPIRO of Corso Cavour in Florence in
        > > > >>> the
        > > > >>> late
        > > > >>> 70's, so, believe me, I do not have much to learn from anyone and
        > > > >>> I had
        > > > >>> good teachers and expert abot thhe marbled paper world.
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>> regards Vito
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>> http://www.papier-royal.com/index_en.html
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>> info@
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/papier-royal/
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>> --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de"
        > > > >>>>> <studio@>
        > > > >>> wrote:
        > > > >>>>>>
        > > > >>>>>> Moreover, they seem to date the papers by the printing date of
        > > > >>>>>> the
        > > > >>> books. Again, they should know better.
        > > > >>>>>>
        > > > >>>>>> Susanne Krause
        > > > >>>>>>
        > > > >>>>>
        > > > >>>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > >> ------------------------------------
        > > > >>
        > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > ------------------------------------
        > > > >
        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jemiljan
        Dear Vito, The notion that Macé Ruette invented marbling- or even specific patterns- is in no way universally accepted. Appeals to various authorities or
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 12, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Vito,

          The notion that Macé Ruette "invented" marbling- or even specific patterns- is in no way universally accepted. Appeals to various "authorities" or years as a practitioner aside, this notion has been shown to be comprised of far more fanciful folklore than actual research. Richard Wolfe identified these stories as originating from Jean La Caille, and they were written some half a century after Ruette's death. See Richard Wolfe, Marbled Paper, pp. 36-7. There is no doubt that Ruette was an important bookbinder, and he may have also been engaged in early marbling in France, but these stories claiming he "invented" marbling or attributing basic combed designs to him is clearly an exaggeration meant to embellish Ruette's reputation.

          Furthermore, the combed designs attributed to Ruette quite clearly have an earlier origin in India, Iran, and Turkey. Currently, I am working on translating several Persian language sources on abri papers (the word "ebru" is never used in any historical primary textual source before the mid 19th c.). When considered together with several concretely datable examples of marbled papers culled from various manuscripts, this evidence confirms these advances took place in India at the turn of the 16th-17th century. These proved so popular that they spread very rapidly, a paradigm that effectively challenges prevailing ideas about the development of the art marbling.

          Best Regards,

          Jake Benson


          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Here you'll find everything you need to know to get started
          > written by Prof. Gabriel Mandel
          >
          > http://www.puntosufi.it/TEMI6.HTM
          >
          > read please about the famous bookbinder Mac� Ruette ( XVII century)
          >
          > greetings
          >
          > Vito
          >
          > https://www.facebook.com/marblingpaper
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "anthonianthonianthoni" <anthonianthonianthoni@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Well then, may know the titles of the books?
          > > Regards
          > > Anthony
          > >
          > > "--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Dear sirs
          > > >
          > > > I read your comments on my page of the History of marbled paper. Perhaps you should investigate the issue better. I am a librarian and this information can be found in books that you totally ignored the existence. I worked for 2 years at the IL PAPIRO of Corso Cavour in Florence in the late 70's, so, believe me, I do not have much to learn from anyone and I had good teachers and expert abot thhe marbled paper world.
          > > >
          > > > regards Vito
          > > >
          > > > http://www.papier-royal.com/index_en.html
          > > >
          > > > info@
          > > >
          > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/papier-royal/
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Moreover, they seem to date the papers by the printing date of the books. Again, they should know better.
          > > > >
          > > > > Susanne Krause
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Cynthia Eaton
          Not to split hairs, but it I did make a point that it was not a direct translation. To a native English speaker my intended point is that some phrases are
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 12, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Not to split hairs, but it I did make a point that it was not a direct
            translation. To a native English speaker my intended point is that some
            phrases are understood to be used traditionaly in a specific order. Hence
            the use of "to and fro"as an example. And as an aside I will note that
            there is an association between "go and come", your Turkish translation,
            and "to and fro" does indeed relate in English. Go and To have a close
            relation in the sense that they indicate a sense of moving away in
            direction, Come and Fro share relation in the sense of a return or arrival
            from afar. Since semantics are becoming quite the issue in this thread I
            suppose I could have just started off using "come and go" but it didn't
            come to mind, pardon me.
            On Mar 12, 2012 6:33 PM, "jemiljan" <jemiljan@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Dear Vito,
            >
            > The notion that Mac�� Ruette "invented" marbling- or even specific
            patterns- is in no way universally accepted. Appeals to various
            "authorities" or years as a practitioner aside, this notion has been shown
            to be comprised of far more fanciful folklore than actual research. Richard
            Wolfe identified these stories as originating from Jean La Caille, and they
            were written some half a century after Ruette's death. See Richard Wolfe,
            Marbled Paper, pp. 36-7. There is no doubt that Ruette was an important
            bookbinder, and he may have also been engaged in early marbling in France,
            but these stories claiming he "invented" marbling or attributing basic
            combed designs to him is clearly an exaggeration meant to embellish
            Ruette's reputation.
            >
            > Furthermore, the combed designs attributed to Ruette quite clearly have
            an earlier origin in India, Iran, and Turkey. Currently, I am working on
            translating several Persian language sources on abri papers (the word
            "ebru" is never used in any historical primary textual source before the
            mid 19th c.). When considered together with several concretely datable
            examples of marbled papers culled from various manuscripts, this evidence
            confirms these advances took place in India at the turn of the 16th-17th
            century. These proved so popular that they spread very rapidly, a paradigm
            that effectively challenges prevailing ideas about the development of the
            art marbling.
            >
            > Best Regards,
            >
            > Jake Benson
            >
            >
            > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Here you'll find everything you need to know to get started
            > > written by Prof. Gabriel Mandel
            > >
            > > http://www.puntosufi.it/TEMI6.HTM
            > >
            > > read please about the famous bookbinder Mac��� Ruette ( XVII century)
            > >
            > > greetings
            > >
            > > Vito
            > >
            > > https://www.facebook.com/marblingpaper
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "anthonianthonianthoni"
            <anthonianthonianthoni@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Well then, may know the titles of the books?
            > > > Regards
            > > > Anthony
            > > >
            > > > "--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@>
            wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Dear sirs
            > > > >
            > > > > I read your comments on my page of the History of marbled paper.
            Perhaps you should investigate the issue better. I am a librarian and this
            information can be found in books that you totally ignored the existence. I
            worked for 2 years at the IL PAPIRO of Corso Cavour in Florence in the late
            70's, so, believe me, I do not have much to learn from anyone and I had
            good teachers and expert abot thhe marbled paper world.
            > > > >
            > > > > regards Vito
            > > > >
            > > > > http://www.papier-royal.com/index_en.html
            > > > >
            > > > > info@
            > > > >
            > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/papier-royal/
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@>
            wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Moreover, they seem to date the papers by the printing date of
            the books. Again, they should know better.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Susanne Krause
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Papier-Royal
            Dear Jake Thanks for your very interesting remarks and for your education and non-polemical tone. All these posts were created by the fact that I have read
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 13, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Jake

              Thanks for your very interesting remarks and for your education and non-polemical tone. All these posts were created by the fact that I have read various posts that gossiped inappropriately after visiting my site section History.
              I honestly do not like the bickering. Some members of this beautifull group have a little exaggeration in their writings. Now I'm going through my papers, it's better, because between the saying and doing tehre is a lot of difference.
              " Storia magistra vitae" ( The story is teacher of life,said ancient Romans ) but the tone of "Professor" used by some members of group to denigrate the work of others, it seemed rather exaggerated and frankly not at all polite.

              The True Story? Posterity will judge it to.

              kind regards
              Vito

              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "jemiljan" <jemiljan@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Vito,
              >
              > The notion that Macé Ruette "invented" marbling- or even specific patterns- is in no way universally accepted. Appeals to various "authorities" or years as a practitioner aside, this notion has been shown to be comprised of far more fanciful folklore than actual research. Richard Wolfe identified these stories as originating from Jean La Caille, and they were written some half a century after Ruette's death. See Richard Wolfe, Marbled Paper, pp. 36-7. There is no doubt that Ruette was an important bookbinder, and he may have also been engaged in early marbling in France, but these stories claiming he "invented" marbling or attributing basic combed designs to him is clearly an exaggeration meant to embellish Ruette's reputation.
              >
              > Furthermore, the combed designs attributed to Ruette quite clearly have an earlier origin in India, Iran, and Turkey. Currently, I am working on translating several Persian language sources on abri papers (the word "ebru" is never used in any historical primary textual source before the mid 19th c.). When considered together with several concretely datable examples of marbled papers culled from various manuscripts, this evidence confirms these advances took place in India at the turn of the 16th-17th century. These proved so popular that they spread very rapidly, a paradigm that effectively challenges prevailing ideas about the development of the art marbling.
              >
              > Best Regards,
              >
              > Jake Benson
              >
              >
              > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Here you'll find everything you need to know to get started
              > > written by Prof. Gabriel Mandel
              > >
              > > http://www.puntosufi.it/TEMI6.HTM
              > >
              > > read please about the famous bookbinder Mac� Ruette ( XVII century)
              > >
              > > greetings
              > >
              > > Vito
              > >
              > > https://www.facebook.com/marblingpaper
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "anthonianthonianthoni" <anthonianthonianthoni@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Well then, may know the titles of the books?
              > > > Regards
              > > > Anthony
              > > >
              > > > "--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Papier-Royal" <papier_royal@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Dear sirs
              > > > >
              > > > > I read your comments on my page of the History of marbled paper. Perhaps you should investigate the issue better. I am a librarian and this information can be found in books that you totally ignored the existence. I worked for 2 years at the IL PAPIRO of Corso Cavour in Florence in the late 70's, so, believe me, I do not have much to learn from anyone and I had good teachers and expert abot thhe marbled paper world.
              > > > >
              > > > > regards Vito
              > > > >
              > > > > http://www.papier-royal.com/index_en.html
              > > > >
              > > > > info@
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              > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/papier-royal/
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              > > > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@> wrote:
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              > > > > > Moreover, they seem to date the papers by the printing date of the books. Again, they should know better.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Susanne Krause
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