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Re: marbling database

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  • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
    Sue, what they have done is simply imprecise work. Imprecision doesn t further research, it is a hindrance at best and and a killer at worst. Meaning: if you
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 29, 2012
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      Sue, what they have done is simply imprecise work. Imprecision doesn't further research, it is a hindrance at best and and a killer at worst.

      Meaning: if you have a collection at your disposal and have thought about it and want to share the results with others in the field, that's fine. If you want to further research and do it by an online database, that's good. If you ask specialists to join you in your efforts, that's even better.

      But.

      If you use terms that are not on the top end of current research and find out about this, correct them as soon as possible. If you find new sources, use them. If you're out of funds or staff or have lost interest, take your database offline at once as your final gift to research. If that's too much, make it crystal clear that your database has not been updated since ... and that research has progressed since and that your database is not any longer to be relied on.

      Years ago, when the link was brought up in the group for the first time, I contacted them, are you interested in support? Yes we are. Sent in a longish list of things to be noted and things to be done; incl. sources and a renowned American contact to give me a bona fides and all. Got a reply that, as I obviously knew quite a lot on the subject, I should transfer every remark into a form. The form was made out for American librarians. I'm neither, and while I can get by in four and a half languages besides German I don't know any Librarianish. So I filled in one form for one item (which incl. consulting two printed and one online dictionary took me about as long as assembling the whole list) and said, please check this out with my list and tell me what I need to do better or differently. Didn't hear anything. Sent another tentative mail, heard nothing. Gave up. Nothing has changed since in the database.


      Susanne Krause
    • irisnevins
      And my comment on names being made up was not really a critique, because there are no standardized names. I have as well made up names, so had Chris Weimann
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 1, 2012
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        And my comment on names being made up was not really a critique, because there are no standardized names. I have as well made up names, so had Chris Weimann .Ribbon Spanish I believe he made up, if Ingrid is reading maybe she knows...but that was his name for what I called Zebra, yet Ribbon Spanish describes it fully. What I call Rainbow Spanish, as far as I have researched, and I have an extensive (as far as marbling books go!) collection of old marbling books, as well as more modern, I have never seen that pattern at all in a book, and only saw TWO examples from the 1800s, in my 34 years of marbling. They were on an old book and one loose endpaper leaf. So when I called it Rainbow Spanish, it was because I had to call it something since I wrote the Spanish Marbling book and it was included there.

        This actually doesn't bother me at all, the comment was not meant to convey annoyance, I actually found it interesting, the names people come up with. The only real problem is when someone for example orders "Peacock", and I send Peacock and they expected Bouquet because some people (and books, I can't recall which) use the name Peacock... or "Fan". Visuals are best referred to when it comes to pattern names, and critical when taking orders.

        I too have thus made up names. My favorite name story, I did a "Zebra" but rather than give it a Spanish wave, and by the way, without the Spanish wave it is still often called Zebra, there is no right or wrong to it, just different, anyway I did a Moire ripple to it. I was set up at a show and had some for sale, and someone asked the name of the pattern. I had none. As a JOKE, I called it "New Jersey Ripple". I never intended the name to stick, but lo and behold, he bought a few, had some books bound by a bookbinder who showed some other binder friends and book people. They all called it NJ Ripple. I was getting calls (we had no email yet in those days!) ordering NJ Ripple. So this is how it happens.

        Another time, when I was working on my first book, "Traditional Marbling", I had a pattern which was combed and swirled, a common thing to do with the paints. I had to call it something. So I wrote for the printer (I mean a real printer, we hadn't PCs at the time!) FREEFORM COMB. He misread it, or glanced and typeset from memory and wrote FREEDOM COMB. Maybe I was rushed or something, juggling a marbling business, raising a daughter, and breeding Shelties, but I totally missed it on the proofs! So it became FREEDOM COMB and stuck. I just go with it because that is what people started calling it when ordering from me. Others have different names.

        People have attempted or at least suggested standardization of names to no avail. Combed is nonpareil, bouquet is peacock, snail is French curl, etc. All I was pointing out was, if it were taken otherwise, amusement at the fact, and I rather enjoy reading the names people come up with. Anyway who and what organization or librarian or whatever would assume they had the authority to change our pet names. If I were told I could no longer use the name NJ Ripple because someone decided otherwise, I'd use it anyway and not conform.

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com


        On 03/01/12, hamburgerbuntpapier_de<studio@...> wrote:




        Sue, what they have done is simply imprecise work. Imprecision doesn't further research, it is a hindrance at best and and a killer at worst.

        Meaning: if you have a collection at your disposal and have thought about it and want to share the results with others in the field, that's fine. If you want to further research and do it by an online database, that's good. If you ask specialists to join you in your efforts, that's even better.

        But.

        If you use terms that are not on the top end of current research and find out about this, correct them as soon as possible. If you find new sources, use them. If you're out of funds or staff or have lost interest, take your database offline at once as your final gift to research. If that's too much, make it crystal clear that your database has not been updated since ... and that research has progressed since and that your database is not any longer to be relied on.

        Years ago, when the link was brought up in the group for the first time, I contacted them, are you interested in support? Yes we are. Sent in a longish list of things to be noted and things to be done; incl. sources and a renowned American contact to give me a bona fides and all. Got a reply that, as I obviously knew quite a lot on the subject, I should transfer every remark into a form. The form was made out for American librarians. I'm neither, and while I can get by in four and a half languages besides German I don't know any Librarianish. So I filled in one form for one item (which incl. consulting two printed and one online dictionary took me about as long as assembling the whole list) and said, please check this out with my list and tell me what I need to do better or differently. Didn't hear anything. Sent another tentative mail, heard nothing. Gave up. Nothing has changed since in the database.


        Susanne Krause





        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • fritzmiklaf@bezeqint.net
        Iris I tend to agree with you about the naming of patterns. It s like the naming of typefaces. Someone changes a little curve of one letter and claims it as a
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 2, 2012
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          Iris

          I tend to agree with you about the naming of patterns. It's like the naming
          of typefaces. Someone changes a little curve of one letter and claims it as
          a new face with a new name. There are so many tiny variations of every
          pattern that it would be impossible to catalogue them all. Phoebe Easton's
          book tried to pin them down, without success I felt, but that was before
          everybody and his or her brother or sister started marbling and inventing
          new patterns. I like the idea of playing with the names for fun, but they
          shouldn't be taken too seriously. I think NJ Ripple sounds like a flavour of
          Baskin Robbins ice cream.

          Actually I don't like the name marbled paper either, but I can't come up
          with a better alternative (water prints?) and no one would agree with me
          anyway.

          Regards,

          Yehuda

          Yehuda Miklaf

          Jerusalem

          <mailto:fritzmiklaf@...> fritzmiklaf@...

          <http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/> www.yehudamiklaf.com





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
          Sorry to butt in again, but to me terminology is the most important point of all the theoretical points decorated paper has in store for us; and this is
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 2, 2012
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            Sorry to butt in again, but to me terminology is the most important point of all the theoretical points decorated paper has in store for us; and this is definitely about all decorated papers, not just about marbled paper as a sub group.

            Without a recognised terminoloy we can just as well stop talking on the scientific level because because different languages don't exactly further understanding. Nothing against our own pet names, we all have them, but they reach their limit when it's about research and communication.

            The terminology of anything that's not defined like 1+1=2, e.g. decorated paper, needs to stand on firm feet and must be suitable not just for the few dozen specialists world wide but for the thousands interested in the subject. Part of it is about 'right' or 'wrong' (there simply is no such thing as paste marbled paper), part of it is about scientific definitions ('what is decorated paper?'), part of it is about practicability ('marbled paper' may not be the correct technical or linguistic term but nevertheless it's the term everyone has been using for centuries), and there are more parts I won't sum up here.

            As it is a matter of course that many of the techniques used in paper decoration cannot be identified with reasonable certainty by those not continually and professionally occupied with them, there needs to be a method to help them along. This, so we found in the study group decorated paper at the German National Library, would be achieved to the best of results by relying on the fact that everyone has two eyes and only needs to be taught how to make use of them ('visual training').

            In 2009, I formed a small team and we set to work. The team formulated definitions, accompanied them by photos, made a guide book from it. We made use of the old and well established terms as much as possible, avoided all commercial names, defined the basis our patterns and techniques stand on, and gave hints about how to deal with doubt. One main subject was: avoid to create more confusion; and it just works fine.

            There are many copies in the Americas (Yehuda, I recommend you talk to Ido, he has one) and even more across Europe. The system is used widely in European libraries, collections and museums.

            There is still much to do. Just the thought of the industrially made papers of 1840 to today makes me feel faint. But the older sorts (hand made and manufactory made) can easily be dealt with in that way. Deutsches Museum Munich has 15'000 items from very old to about 1920/1930. All but 70 or so could be placed.

            Susanne Krause
          • Feridun Ozgoren
            Suminagashi is called Suminagashi by “everybody and his or her brother or sister”….. But ebru is called “marbled paper”. One wonders why…at least
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 2, 2012
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              Suminagashi is called Suminagashi by “everybody and his or her brother or
              sister”…..

              But ebru is called “marbled paper”. One wonders why…at least I do….

              Any suggestions?

              Best wishes,

              Feridun Özgören



              From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of fritzmiklaf@...
              Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 6:13 AM
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Marbling] Re: marbling database





              Iris

              I tend to agree with you about the naming of patterns. It's like the naming
              of typefaces. Someone changes a little curve of one letter and claims it as
              a new face with a new name. There are so many tiny variations of every
              pattern that it would be impossible to catalogue them all. Phoebe Easton's
              book tried to pin them down, without success I felt, but that was before
              everybody and his or her brother or sister started marbling and inventing
              new patterns. I like the idea of playing with the names for fun, but they
              shouldn't be taken too seriously. I think NJ Ripple sounds like a flavour of
              Baskin Robbins ice cream.

              Actually I don't like the name marbled paper either, but I can't come up
              with a better alternative (water prints?) and no one would agree with me
              anyway.

              Regards,

              Yehuda

              Yehuda Miklaf

              Jerusalem

              <mailto:fritzmiklaf@... <mailto:fritzmiklaf%40bezeqint.net> >
              fritzmiklaf@... <mailto:fritzmiklaf%40bezeqint.net>

              <http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/> www.yehudamiklaf.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
              Over here, marbled paper is the head word and ebru is used for Turkish techniques, just as suminagashi for Japanese techniques. It is not wrong, though, to say
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 2, 2012
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                Over here, marbled paper is the head word and ebru is used for Turkish techniques, just as suminagashi for Japanese techniques. It is not wrong, though, to say Turkish (resp. Japanese) marbling. I'd not say battal ebru when talking about European stone marbled paper and vice versa, but it would be possible to say stone marbled paper (battal ebru) or vice versa, according to context. In a text about ebru, the Turkish terms would be used.

                Susanne Krause
              • anthonianthonianthoni
                Perhaps this is because in suminagashi , the colours are floated on water, whilst in ebru, the colours are floated on a thickened liquid. Furthermore,
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 4, 2012
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                  Perhaps this is because in suminagashi , the colours are floated on water, whilst in ebru, the colours are floated on a thickened liquid.

                  Furthermore, suminagashi tens to be a bit more abstract, as opposed to ebru and marbling, which,
                  1 look somewhat similar
                  2 produced in a nearly identical manner

                  Speaking of ebru, is I heard there is a pattern that is constructed in a similar method to what is known as a " stormont" . One wonders If the European marblers learned it from the Turks or vice versa.....

                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Feridun Ozgoren" <feridun.ozgoren@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Suminagashi is called Suminagashi by "everybody and his or her brother or
                  > sister"…..
                  >
                  > But ebru is called "marbled paper". One wonders why…at least I do….
                  >
                  > Any suggestions?
                  >
                  > Best wishes,
                  >
                  > Feridun Özgören
                • irisnevins
                  Just musing.... but I wonder if Stormont (named for the Irish house of Parliament so they say) was created accidentally. As a young marbler in maybe 1978 or 79
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 4, 2012
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                    Just musing.... but I wonder if Stormont (named for the Irish house of Parliament so they say) was created accidentally. As a young marbler in maybe 1978 or 79 I was marbling in the kitchen and someone was cooking sausages. A spot of grease flew into the tray (trough tank whatever) and I got an instant Stormont. I didn't know of the pattern yet! So maybe someone got some tuprentine or grease in the tray accidentally too, and a new pattern was born.

                    How I wish we had a time machine! We could really find out!
                    Iris Nevins
                    www.marblingpaper.com



                    On 03/04/12, anthonianthonianthoni<anthonianthonianthoni@...> wrote:

                    Perhaps this is because in suminagashi , the colours are floated on water, whilst in ebru, the colours are floated on a thickened liquid.

                    Furthermore, suminagashi tens to be a bit more abstract, as opposed to ebru and marbling, which,
                    1 look somewhat similar
                    2 produced in a nearly identical manner

                    Speaking of ebru, is I heard there is a pattern that is constructed in a similar method to what is known as a " stormont" . One wonders If the European marblers learned it from the Turks or vice versa.....

                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Feridun Ozgoren" <feridun.ozgoren@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Suminagashi is called Suminagashi by "everybody and his or her brother or
                    > sister"�..
                    >
                    > But ebru is called "marbled paper". One wonders why�at least I do�.
                    >
                    > Any suggestions?
                    >
                    > Best wishes,
                    >
                    > Feridun �zg�ren




                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Laura Sims
                    Though I understand the need for clear communication while dealing with a client, patterns with a story like NJ Ripple seem to add extra flavor and
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 4, 2012
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                      Though I understand the need for clear communication while dealing with a client, patterns with a story like NJ Ripple seem to add extra flavor and individualization to the process.  I made a decision to work exclusively on textiles a few years ago and found that other fiber artists familiar with ebru/marbling only identified it with classical patterns used on paper.  Since I found that limiting for my product line and teaching possibilities I began using the term hydro-printing and have had positive results for my needs.  


                      Health and Happiness to all,
                      Laura Sims
                      indigostonestudio.com


                      ________________________________
                      From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2012 9:09 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: marbling database


                       
                      And my comment on names being made up was not really a critique, because there are no standardized names. I have as well made up names, so had Chris Weimann .Ribbon Spanish I believe he made up, if Ingrid is reading maybe she knows...but that was his name for what I called Zebra, yet Ribbon Spanish describes it fully. What I call Rainbow Spanish, as far as I have researched, and I have an extensive (as far as marbling books go!) collection of old marbling books, as well as more modern, I have never seen that pattern at all in a book, and only saw TWO examples from the 1800s, in my 34 years of marbling. They were on an old book and one loose endpaper leaf. So when I called it Rainbow Spanish, it was because I had to call it something since I wrote the Spanish Marbling book and it was included there.

                      This actually doesn't bother me at all, the comment was not meant to convey annoyance, I actually found it interesting, the names people come up with. The only real problem is when someone for example orders "Peacock", and I send Peacock and they expected Bouquet because some people (and books, I can't recall which) use the name Peacock... or "Fan". Visuals are best referred to when it comes to pattern names, and critical when taking orders.

                      I too have thus made up names. My favorite name story, I did a "Zebra" but rather than give it a Spanish wave, and by the way, without the Spanish wave it is still often called Zebra, there is no right or wrong to it, just different, anyway I did a Moire ripple to it. I was set up at a show and had some for sale, and someone asked the name of the pattern. I had none. As a JOKE, I called it "New Jersey Ripple". I never intended the name to stick, but lo and behold, he bought a few, had some books bound by a bookbinder who showed some other binder friends and book people. They all called it NJ Ripple. I was getting calls (we had no email yet in those days!) ordering NJ Ripple. So this is how it happens.

                      Another time, when I was working on my first book, "Traditional Marbling", I had a pattern which was combed and swirled, a common thing to do with the paints. I had to call it something. So I wrote for the printer (I mean a real printer, we hadn't PCs at the time!) FREEFORM COMB. He misread it, or glanced and typeset from memory and wrote FREEDOM COMB. Maybe I was rushed or something, juggling a marbling business, raising a daughter, and breeding Shelties, but I totally missed it on the proofs! So it became FREEDOM COMB and stuck. I just go with it because that is what people started calling it when ordering from me. Others have different names.

                      People have attempted or at least suggested standardization of names to no avail. Combed is nonpareil, bouquet is peacock, snail is French curl, etc. All I was pointing out was, if it were taken otherwise, amusement at the fact, and I rather enjoy reading the names people come up with. Anyway who and what organization or librarian or whatever would assume they had the authority to change our pet names. If I were told I could no longer use the name NJ Ripple because someone decided otherwise, I'd use it anyway and not conform.

                      Iris Nevins
                      www.marblingpaper.com


                      On 03/01/12, hamburgerbuntpapier_de<studio@...> wrote:


                      Sue, what they have done is simply imprecise work. Imprecision doesn't further research, it is a hindrance at best and and a killer at worst.

                      Meaning: if you have a collection at your disposal and have thought about it and want to share the results with others in the field, that's fine. If you want to further research and do it by an online database, that's good. If you ask specialists to join you in your efforts, that's even better.

                      But.

                      If you use terms that are not on the top end of current research and find out about this, correct them as soon as possible. If you find new sources, use them. If you're out of funds or staff or have lost interest, take your database offline at once as your final gift to research. If that's too much, make it crystal clear that your database has not been updated since ... and that research has progressed since and that your database is not any longer to be relied on.

                      Years ago, when the link was brought up in the group for the first time, I contacted them, are you interested in support? Yes we are. Sent in a longish list of things to be noted and things to be done; incl. sources and a renowned American contact to give me a bona fides and all. Got a reply that, as I obviously knew quite a lot on the subject, I should transfer every remark into a form. The form was made out for American librarians. I'm neither, and while I can get by in four and a half languages besides German I don't know any Librarianish. So I filled in one form for one item (which incl. consulting two printed and one online dictionary took me about as long as assembling the whole list) and said, please check this out with my list and tell me what I need to do better or differently. Didn't hear anything. Sent another tentative mail, heard nothing. Gave up. Nothing has changed since in the database.

                      Susanne Krause

                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Antonio Velez Celemín
                      That s sounds absolutely clever, Laura. Congratulations¡¡¡ Many people in Spain think marble paper is old fashioned, even if the pattern you offer is
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 4, 2012
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                        That's sounds absolutely clever, Laura. Congratulations���

                        Many people in Spain think marble paper is old fashioned, even if the
                        pattern you offer is completely original and modern��

                        Hidro-impresion, this will be the word in Spanish...

                        Best regards

                        Antonio

                        2012/3/4 Laura Sims <indigostone2@...>

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Though I understand the need for clear communication while dealing with a
                        > client, patterns with a story like NJ Ripple seem to add extra flavor and
                        > individualization to the process. I made a decision to work exclusively on
                        > textiles a few years ago and found that other fiber artists familiar with
                        > ebru/marbling only identified it with classical patterns used on paper.
                        > Since I found that limiting for my product line and teaching possibilities
                        > I began using the term hydro-printing and have had positive results for my
                        > needs.
                        >
                        > Health and Happiness to all,
                        > Laura Sims
                        > indigostonestudio.com
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                        > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2012 9:09 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: marbling database
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > And my comment on names being made up was not really a critique, because
                        > there are no standardized names. I have as well made up names, so had Chris
                        > Weimann .Ribbon Spanish I believe he made up, if Ingrid is reading maybe
                        > she knows...but that was his name for what I called Zebra, yet Ribbon
                        > Spanish describes it fully. What I call Rainbow Spanish, as far as I have
                        > researched, and I have an extensive (as far as marbling books go!)
                        > collection of old marbling books, as well as more modern, I have never seen
                        > that pattern at all in a book, and only saw TWO examples from the 1800s, in
                        > my 34 years of marbling. They were on an old book and one loose endpaper
                        > leaf. So when I called it Rainbow Spanish, it was because I had to call it
                        > something since I wrote the Spanish Marbling book and it was included
                        > there.
                        >
                        > This actually doesn't bother me at all, the comment was not meant to
                        > convey annoyance, I actually found it interesting, the names people come up
                        > with. The only real problem is when someone for example orders "Peacock",
                        > and I send Peacock and they expected Bouquet because some people (and
                        > books, I can't recall which) use the name Peacock... or "Fan". Visuals are
                        > best referred to when it comes to pattern names, and critical when taking
                        > orders.
                        >
                        > I too have thus made up names. My favorite name story, I did a "Zebra" but
                        > rather than give it a Spanish wave, and by the way, without the Spanish
                        > wave it is still often called Zebra, there is no right or wrong to it, just
                        > different, anyway I did a Moire ripple to it. I was set up at a show and
                        > had some for sale, and someone asked the name of the pattern. I had none.
                        > As a JOKE, I called it "New Jersey Ripple". I never intended the name to
                        > stick, but lo and behold, he bought a few, had some books bound by a
                        > bookbinder who showed some other binder friends and book people. They all
                        > called it NJ Ripple. I was getting calls (we had no email yet in those
                        > days!) ordering NJ Ripple. So this is how it happens.
                        >
                        > Another time, when I was working on my first book, "Traditional Marbling",
                        > I had a pattern which was combed and swirled, a common thing to do with the
                        > paints. I had to call it something. So I wrote for the printer (I mean a
                        > real printer, we hadn't PCs at the time!) FREEFORM COMB. He misread it, or
                        > glanced and typeset from memory and wrote FREEDOM COMB. Maybe I was rushed
                        > or something, juggling a marbling business, raising a daughter, and
                        > breeding Shelties, but I totally missed it on the proofs! So it became
                        > FREEDOM COMB and stuck. I just go with it because that is what people
                        > started calling it when ordering from me. Others have different names.
                        >
                        > People have attempted or at least suggested standardization of names to no
                        > avail. Combed is nonpareil, bouquet is peacock, snail is French curl, etc.
                        > All I was pointing out was, if it were taken otherwise, amusement at the
                        > fact, and I rather enjoy reading the names people come up with. Anyway who
                        > and what organization or librarian or whatever would assume they had the
                        > authority to change our pet names. If I were told I could no longer use the
                        > name NJ Ripple because someone decided otherwise, I'd use it anyway and not
                        > conform.
                        >
                        > Iris Nevins
                        > www.marblingpaper.com
                        >
                        > On 03/01/12, hamburgerbuntpapier_de<studio@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Sue, what they have done is simply imprecise work. Imprecision doesn't
                        > further research, it is a hindrance at best and and a killer at worst.
                        >
                        > Meaning: if you have a collection at your disposal and have thought about
                        > it and want to share the results with others in the field, that's fine. If
                        > you want to further research and do it by an online database, that's good.
                        > If you ask specialists to join you in your efforts, that's even better.
                        >
                        > But.
                        >
                        > If you use terms that are not on the top end of current research and find
                        > out about this, correct them as soon as possible. If you find new sources,
                        > use them. If you're out of funds or staff or have lost interest, take your
                        > database offline at once as your final gift to research. If that's too
                        > much, make it crystal clear that your database has not been updated since
                        > ... and that research has progressed since and that your database is not
                        > any longer to be relied on.
                        >
                        > Years ago, when the link was brought up in the group for the first time, I
                        > contacted them, are you interested in support? Yes we are. Sent in a
                        > longish list of things to be noted and things to be done; incl. sources and
                        > a renowned American contact to give me a bona fides and all. Got a reply
                        > that, as I obviously knew quite a lot on the subject, I should transfer
                        > every remark into a form. The form was made out for American librarians.
                        > I'm neither, and while I can get by in four and a half languages besides
                        > German I don't know any Librarianish. So I filled in one form for one item
                        > (which incl. consulting two printed and one online dictionary took me about
                        > as long as assembling the whole list) and said, please check this out with
                        > my list and tell me what I need to do better or differently. Didn't hear
                        > anything. Sent another tentative mail, heard nothing. Gave up. Nothing has
                        > changed since in the database.
                        >
                        > Susanne Krause
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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