Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric

Expand Messages
  • irisnevins
    Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to wonder,
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 20, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.

      Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.

      Iris Nevins
      www.marblingpaper.com



      On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:

      For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
      remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
      iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
      where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
      the hard way.

      I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
      regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or two
      of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread better.
      I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
      over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
      with watercolors, not acrylics.

      Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin. You
      should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
      tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
      paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
      still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments have
      different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
      two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
      to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.

      I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
      around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24 hours
      to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
      a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the dryer
      again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.

      hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
      anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self taught
      and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
      Sue


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • John Goode
      HI Fabric Marblers If one heats up the alum on/in the fabric with an iron would this change the properties of the alum to an acid that would destroy the
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 20, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        HI Fabric Marblers
        If one heats up the alum on/in the fabric with an iron would this change
        the properties of the alum to an acid that would destroy the fabric? I have
        found one must get the alum out before heat setting of anykind unless you
        want to change the temperment of the chemical used.It seems one would want
        to have an archival product that does not disenigrate in the long run?
        Maybe the alum one uses is not as strong as others and will not make a
        difference but please pull that fabric hard in each direction and see if it
        is destroyed or not before giving advice on prosperity with alum :)
        Happy Marbling!
        John Goode


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • marines bengoa
        This never has never happened to me. Of course, your iron must be at the medium setting. It s not a matter of applying very high heat at once but gradually. I
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 20, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          This never has never happened to me. Of course, your iron must be at the medium setting. It's not a matter of applying very high heat at once but gradually. I get my alum al Dharma Trading. Since this supplier caters to textile artist it may be that their alum is specially  for textiles. 


          ________________________________
          From: John Goode <watermarktile@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:46 AM
          Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric


           
          HI Fabric Marblers
          If one heats up the alum on/in the fabric with an iron would this change
          the properties of the alum to an acid that would destroy the fabric? I have
          found one must get the alum out before heat setting of anykind unless you
          want to change the temperment of the chemical used.It seems one would want
          to have an archival product that does not disenigrate in the long run?
          Maybe the alum one uses is not as strong as others and will not make a
          difference but please pull that fabric hard in each direction and see if it
          is destroyed or not before giving advice on prosperity with alum :)
          Happy Marbling!
          John Goode

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • irisnevins
          John.... I have fabric done 30 years back that I have pulled and yanked....silk and others... no problem. I use a fairly weak alum solution, I tbs. to 3-4 cups
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 20, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            John.... I have fabric done 30 years back that I have pulled and yanked....silk and others... no problem. I use a fairly weak alum solution, I tbs. to 3-4 cups water. I use the minimum amount needed, maybe could go less. After marbling the silk or fabric is rinsed, and I suspect all the alum comes out, along with the carrageenan. No sweet taste on it anyway. I have tested that! Some say alum preserves... not really up on that nor can offer any details, but there is an old Ink & Gall study and experiments by Don Guyot. Not sure if it applies to fabric. After rinsing and drying, I Iron them again.

            I have not one single hole, not complaint, or tear in three decades, and these are mainly well worn scarves that at least in my own case suffer great abuse since I am so totally not careful with clothing. They have been washed and dried multitudes of times as well with no problem. So that's the story here anyway. Not sure of others.
            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com



            On 02/20/12, John Goode<watermarktile@...> wrote:

            HI Fabric Marblers
            If one heats up the alum on/in the fabric with an iron would this change
            the properties of the alum to an acid that would destroy the fabric? I have
            found one must get the alum out before heat setting of anykind unless you
            want to change the temperment of the chemical used.It seems one would want
            to have an archival product that does not disenigrate in the long run?
            Maybe the alum one uses is not as strong as others and will not make a
            difference but please pull that fabric hard in each direction and see if it
            is destroyed or not before giving advice on prosperity with alum :)
            Happy Marbling!
            John Goode


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • marines bengoa
            I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes off. I have
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 20, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever heard. 

               I use hot water only as the last step of the process, when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and silk. 

              I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.


              ________________________________
              From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric


               
              Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
              say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.

              Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.

              Iris Nevins
              www.marblingpaper.com

              On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:

              For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
              remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
              iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
              where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
              the hard way.

              I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
              regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or two
              of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread better.
              I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
              over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
              with watercolors, not acrylics.

              Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin. You
              should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
              tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
              paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
              still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments have
              different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
              two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
              to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.

              I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
              around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24 hours
              to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
              a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the dryer
              again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.

              hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
              anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self taught
              and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
              Sue

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • carylhanc@aol.com
              Hi! The question came up about the above product: Pro-chem s line has one, as does Liquitex, and for the Golden paints, their colorless extender is GAC 100.
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 20, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi!
                The question came up about the above product: Pro-chem's line has one, as does Liquitex, and for the Golden paints, their colorless extender is GAC 100. Basically this dilutes the color without changing the viscosity of the paint which would happen if you just added water. So a very dark blue would be lighter in value, but the hue would not be changed, and in theory, it would spread about the same.
                HTH!
                Caryl Hancock. Indianapolis



                -----Original Message-----
                From: Sue Cole <akartisan@...>
                To: marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 12:49 am
                Subject: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric





                For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
                remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
                iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
                the hard way.

                I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
                regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or two
                of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread better.
                I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
                over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
                with watercolors, not acrylics.

                Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin. You
                should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
                tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
                paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
                still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments have
                different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
                two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
                to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.

                I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
                around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24 hours
                to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
                a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the dryer
                again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.

                hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
                anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self taught
                and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                Sue

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • irisnevins
                Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also make wearable silk when
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 20, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also make wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem with size or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I marble a piece I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til the residue is off and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff in the end. All I do is line dry them, then iron and package them. I skip the dryer, the iron seems to be plenty heat to set anything.

                  I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way with it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has used the hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as soon as it dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too if I stored it and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of least resistance is all and try not to complicate things if not needed. It seems to work anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works for us is best, and what is most comfortable is best for each marbler. There really is no right or wrong to it as long as you get the proper result. I have tried pre-washing with no different result so stopped. The only rinse is after in the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It gets all the alum and size off the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no sign of deteriorating, except for the rough housing I tend to give any wearable with rough country life and spilling things on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived, if a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood etc, Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot hot irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art Brand and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the fact that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.

                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com


                  On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:

                  I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever heard.�

                  � I use hot water only as the last step of the process, when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and silk.�

                  I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.


                  ________________________________
                  From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric



                  Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
                  say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.

                  Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.

                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com

                  On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:

                  For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
                  remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
                  iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                  where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
                  the hard way.

                  I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
                  regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or two
                  of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread better.
                  I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
                  over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
                  with watercolors, not acrylics.

                  Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin. You
                  should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
                  tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
                  paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
                  still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments have
                  different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
                  two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
                  to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.

                  I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
                  around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24 hours
                  to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
                  a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the dryer
                  again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.

                  hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
                  anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self taught
                  and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                  Sue

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • marines bengoa
                  You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote before, I m a self taught marbler, I m still learning as it never ends, specially through this
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 20, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote before, I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends, specially through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist like you. I have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many techniques I work with and one of my favorites.

                    As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the Caribbean, warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and let it sit for a while to soften and then mix it until it dissolves. 

                    I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical than caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae. Price is important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray takes about 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff works fine. The residue may be a characteristic of this product.


                    ________________________________
                    From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                    Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric


                     
                    Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also make wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem with size or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I marble a piece I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til the residue is off and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff in the end. All I do is line dry them, then iron and package them. I skip the dryer, the iron seems to be plenty heat to set anything.

                    I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way with it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has used the hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as soon as it dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too if I stored it and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of least resistance is all and try not to complicate things if not needed. It seems to work anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works for us is best, and what is most comfortable is best for each marbler. There really is no right or wrong to it as long as you get the proper result. I have tried pre-washing with no different result so stopped. The only rinse is after in the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It gets all the alum and size off the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no sign of deteriorating, except for the rough housing I tend to give any wearable with rough country life and spilling things
                    on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived, if a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood etc, Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot hot irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art Brand and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the fact that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.

                    Iris Nevins
                    www.marblingpaper.com


                    On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:

                    I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever heard.Â

                    Â I use hot water only as the last step of the process, when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and silk.Â

                    I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.

                    ________________________________
                    From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric


                    Â
                    Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
                    say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.

                    Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.

                    Iris Nevins
                    www.marblingpaper.com

                    On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:

                    For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
                    remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
                    iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                    where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
                    the hard way.

                    I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
                    regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or two
                    of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread better.
                    I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
                    over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
                    with watercolors, not acrylics.

                    Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin. You
                    should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
                    tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
                    paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
                    still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments have
                    different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
                    two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
                    to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.

                    I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
                    around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24 hours
                    to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
                    a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the dryer
                    again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.

                    hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
                    anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self taught
                    and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                    Sue

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • irisnevins
                    I am interested to try that and was talking to Pro chem this morning. They can t advise on the differences between carragennan and their Marbo Gum so I just
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 20, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I am interested to try that and was talking to Pro chem this morning. They can't advise on the differences between carragennan and their Marbo Gum so I just have to try it. Unless someone on the group has done a comparison. The carrageenan is getting crazy expensive. If it is the same end result that would be good. Carrageenan does of course leave a residue too but I wash it off immediately. Never had a problem.


                      Iris




                      On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:

                      You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote before, I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends, specially through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist like you. I have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many techniques I work with and one of my favorites.

                      As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the Caribbean, warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and let it sit for a while to soften and then mix it until it dissolves.�

                      I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical than caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae. Price is important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray takes about 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff works fine. The residue may be a characteristic of this product.


                      ________________________________
                      From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                      Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric



                      Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also make wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem with size or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I marble a piece I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til the residue is off and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff in the end. All I do is line dry them, then iron and package them. I skip the dryer, the iron seems to be plenty heat to set anything.

                      I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way with it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has used the hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as soon as it dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too if I stored it and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of least resistance is all and try not to complicate things if not needed. It seems to work anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works for us is best, and what is most comfortable is best for each marbler. There really is no right or wrong to it as long as you get the proper result. I have tried pre-washing with no different result so stopped. The only rinse is after in the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It gets all the alum and size off the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no sign of deteriorating, except for the rough housing I tend to give any wearable with rough country life and spilling things
                      on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived, if a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood etc, Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot hot irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art Brand and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the fact that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.

                      Iris Nevins
                      www.marblingpaper.com


                      On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:

                      I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever heard.Â

                      Â I use hot water only as the last step of the process, when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and silk.Â

                      I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.

                      ________________________________
                      From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric


                      Â
                      Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
                      say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.

                      Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.

                      Iris Nevins
                      www.marblingpaper.com

                      On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:

                      For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
                      remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
                      iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                      where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
                      the hard way.

                      I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
                      regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or two
                      of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread better.
                      I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
                      over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
                      with watercolors, not acrylics.

                      Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin. You
                      should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
                      tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
                      paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
                      still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments have
                      different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
                      two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
                      to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.

                      I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
                      around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24 hours
                      to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
                      a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the dryer
                      again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.

                      hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
                      anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self taught
                      and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                      Sue

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • marines bengoa
                      If you decide to try it, which I suggest you do, I would like to know your opinion, since I have never used carrageenan.  Marines
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 20, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        If you decide to try it, which I suggest you do, I would like to know your opinion, since I have never used carrageenan. 

                        Marines


                        ________________________________
                        From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 6:05 PM
                        Subject: Re: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric


                         
                        I am interested to try that and was talking to Pro chem this morning. They can't advise on the differences between carragennan and their Marbo Gum so I just have to try it. Unless someone on the group has done a comparison. The carrageenan is getting crazy expensive. If it is the same end result that would be good. Carrageenan does of course leave a residue too but I wash it off immediately. Never had a problem.

                        Iris

                        On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:

                        You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote before, I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends, specially through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist like you. I have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many techniques I work with and one of my favorites.

                        As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the Caribbean, warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and let it sit for a while to soften and then mix it until it dissolves.Â

                        I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical than caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae. Price is important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray takes about 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff works fine. The residue may be a characteristic of this product.

                        ________________________________
                        From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                        Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric


                        Â
                        Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also make wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem with size or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I marble a piece I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til the residue is off and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff in the end. All I do is line dry them, then iron and package them. I skip the dryer, the iron seems to be plenty heat to set anything.

                        I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way with it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has used the hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as soon as it dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too if I stored it and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of least resistance is all and try not to complicate things if not needed. It seems to work anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works for us is best, and what is most comfortable is best for each marbler. There really is no right or wrong to it as long as you get the proper result. I have tried pre-washing with no different result so stopped. The only rinse is after in the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It gets all the alum and size off the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no sign of deteriorating, except for the rough housing I tend to give any wearable with rough country life and spilling things
                        on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived, if a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood etc, Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot hot irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art Brand and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the fact that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.

                        Iris Nevins
                        www.marblingpaper.com

                        On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:

                        I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever heard.Â

                        Â I use hot water only as the last step of the process, when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and silk.Â

                        I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.

                        ________________________________
                        From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric

                        Â
                        Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
                        say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.

                        Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.

                        Iris Nevins
                        www.marblingpaper.com

                        On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:

                        For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
                        remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
                        iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                        where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
                        the hard way.

                        I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
                        regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or two
                        of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread better.
                        I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
                        over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
                        with watercolors, not acrylics.

                        Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin. You
                        should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
                        tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
                        paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
                        still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments have
                        different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
                        two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
                        to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.

                        I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
                        around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24 hours
                        to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
                        a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the dryer
                        again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.

                        hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
                        anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self taught
                        and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                        Sue

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • irisnevins
                        It s on my long to-do list! So if you can wait a little... IrisNevins www.marblingpaper.com On 02/20/12, marines bengoa wrote: If you
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 20, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          It's on my long to-do list! So if you can wait a little...
                          IrisNevins
                          www.marblingpaper.com



                          On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:

                          If you decide to try it, which I suggest you do, I would like to know your opinion, since I have never used carrageenan.�

                          Marines


                          ________________________________
                          From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 6:05 PM
                          Subject: Re: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric



                          I am interested to try that and was talking to Pro chem this morning. They can't advise on the differences between carragennan and their Marbo Gum so I just have to try it. Unless someone on the group has done a comparison. The carrageenan is getting crazy expensive. If it is the same end result that would be good. Carrageenan does of course leave a residue too but I wash it off immediately. Never had a problem.

                          Iris

                          On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:

                          You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote before, I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends, specially through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist like you. I have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many techniques I work with and one of my favorites.

                          As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the Caribbean, warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and let it sit for a while to soften and then mix it until it dissolves.Â

                          I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical than caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae. Price is important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray takes about 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff works fine. The residue may be a characteristic of this product.

                          ________________________________
                          From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                          Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric


                          Â
                          Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also make wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem with size or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I marble a piece I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til the residue is off and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff in the end. All I do is line dry them, then iron and package them. I skip the dryer, the iron seems to be plenty heat to set anything.

                          I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way with it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has used the hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as soon as it dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too if I stored it and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of least resistance is all and try not to complicate things if not needed. It seems to work anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works for us is best, and what is most comfortable is best for each marbler. There really is no right or wrong to it as long as you get the proper result. I have tried pre-washing with no different result so stopped. The only rinse is after in the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It gets all the alum and size off the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no sign of deteriorating, except for the rough housing I tend to give any wearable with rough country life and spilling things
                          on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived, if a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood etc, Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot hot irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art Brand and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the fact that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.

                          Iris Nevins
                          www.marblingpaper.com

                          On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:

                          I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever heard.Â

                          Â I use hot water only as the last step of the process, when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and silk.Â

                          I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.

                          ________________________________
                          From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric

                          Â
                          Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
                          say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.

                          Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.

                          Iris Nevins
                          www.marblingpaper.com

                          On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:

                          For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
                          remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
                          iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                          where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
                          the hard way.

                          I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
                          regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or two
                          of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread better.
                          I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
                          over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
                          with watercolors, not acrylics.

                          Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin. You
                          should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
                          tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
                          paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
                          still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments have
                          different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
                          two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
                          to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.

                          I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
                          around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24 hours
                          to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
                          a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the dryer
                          again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.

                          hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
                          anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self taught
                          and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                          Sue

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • kmokri
                          I m curious, how many pieces of fabric do you do out of one batch of size. I know this varies, but can you give me an approximate count? I think that I m
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 21, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I'm curious, how many pieces of fabric do you do out of one batch of size. I know this varies, but can you give me an approximate count? I think that I'm ruining my size really fast.
                            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, marines bengoa <mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote before, I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends, specially through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist like you. I have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many techniques I work with and one of my favorites.
                            >
                            > As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the Caribbean, warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and let it sit for a while to soften and then mix it until it dissolves. 
                            >
                            > I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical than caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae. Price is important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray takes about 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff works fine. The residue may be a characteristic of this product.
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                            > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            > Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also make wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem with size or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I marble a piece I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til the residue is off and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff in the end. All I do is line dry them, then iron and package them. I skip the dryer, the iron seems to be plenty heat to set anything.
                            >
                            > I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way with it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has used the hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as soon as it dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too if I stored it and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of least resistance is all and try not to complicate things if not needed. It seems to work anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works for us is best, and what is most comfortable is best for each marbler. There really is no right or wrong to it as long as you get the proper result. I have tried pre-washing with no different result so stopped. The only rinse is after in the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It gets all the alum and size off the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no sign of deteriorating, except for the rough housing I tend to give any wearable with rough country life and spilling things
                            > on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived, if a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood etc, Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot hot irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art Brand and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the fact that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.
                            >
                            > Iris Nevins
                            > www.marblingpaper.com
                            >
                            >
                            > On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever heard.Â
                            >
                            > Â I use hot water only as the last step of the process, when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and silk.Â
                            >
                            > I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                            >
                            >
                            > Â
                            > Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
                            > say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.
                            >
                            > Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.
                            >
                            > Iris Nevins
                            > www.marblingpaper.com
                            >
                            > On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
                            > remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
                            > iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                            > where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
                            > the hard way.
                            >
                            > I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
                            > regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or two
                            > of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread better.
                            > I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
                            > over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
                            > with watercolors, not acrylics.
                            >
                            > Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin. You
                            > should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
                            > tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
                            > paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
                            > still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments have
                            > different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
                            > two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
                            > to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.
                            >
                            > I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
                            > around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24 hours
                            > to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
                            > a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the dryer
                            > again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.
                            >
                            > hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
                            > anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self taught
                            > and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                            > Sue
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • irisnevins
                            Depends on the sizw of the tank, how thick the size, what is the size etc. I do scarves for example on carrageenan, in a 9 foot tank and fit in three 90 X 54
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 21, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Depends on the sizw of the tank, how thick the size, what is the size etc.

                              I do scarves for example on carrageenan, in a 9 foot tank and fit in three 90 X 54 silk habotais for each marble. I use about 4-6 gallons of size to yield 30-40 scarves. I do this only a few times a year really anymore. I use acrylics for these as well. I always have a fair amount of dirty size to dispose of but that's how it is, I couldn't marble any shallower once it gets down to an inch or so.

                              Hope that helps
                              Iris Nevins
                              www.marblingpaper.com



                              On 02/21/12, kmokri<kmokri@...> wrote:


                              I'm curious, how many pieces of fabric do you do out of one batch of size. I know this varies, but can you give me an approximate count? I think that I'm ruining my size really fast.
                              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, marines bengoa <mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote before, I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends, specially through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist like you. I have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many techniques I work with and one of my favorites.
                              >
                              > As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the Caribbean, warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and let it sit for a while to soften and then mix it until it dissolves.�
                              >
                              > I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical than caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae. Price is important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray takes about 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff works fine. The residue may be a characteristic of this product.
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                              > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                              > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                              >
                              >
                              > �
                              > Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also make wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem with size or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I marble a piece I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til the residue is off and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff in the end. All I do is line dry them, then iron and package them. I skip the dryer, the iron seems to be plenty heat to set anything.
                              >
                              > I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way with it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has used the hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as soon as it dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too if I stored it and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of least resistance is all and try not to complicate things if not needed. It seems to work anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works for us is best, and what is most comfortable is best for each marbler. There really is no right or wrong to it as long as you get the proper result. I have tried pre-washing with no different result so stopped. The only rinse is after in the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It gets all the alum and size off the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no sign of deteriorating, except for the rough housing I tend to give any wearable with rough country life and spilling things
                              > on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived, if a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood etc, Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot hot irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art Brand and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the fact that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.
                              >
                              > Iris Nevins
                              > www.marblingpaper.com
                              >
                              >
                              > On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever heard.Â
                              >
                              > Â I use hot water only as the last step of the process, when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and silk.Â
                              >
                              > I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                              > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                              >
                              >
                              > Â
                              > Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
                              > say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.
                              >
                              > Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.
                              >
                              > Iris Nevins
                              > www.marblingpaper.com
                              >
                              > On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
                              > remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
                              > iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                              > where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
                              > the hard way.
                              >
                              > I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
                              > regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or two
                              > of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread better.
                              > I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
                              > over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
                              > with watercolors, not acrylics.
                              >
                              > Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin. You
                              > should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
                              > tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
                              > paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
                              > still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments have
                              > different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
                              > two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
                              > to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.
                              >
                              > I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
                              > around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24 hours
                              > to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
                              > a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the dryer
                              > again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.
                              >
                              > hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
                              > anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self taught
                              > and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                              > Sue
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >




                              ------------------------------------

                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • marines bengoa
                              The tank I use for scarves is 17 X 66 . It takes 4 gals. of size and I can marble about 18 scarves. The one for fabric is 118 X 47 . It takes 15 gals. of
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 21, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The tank I use for scarves is 17" X 66". It takes 4 gals. of size and I can marble about 18 scarves. The one for fabric is 118" X 47". It takes 15 gals. of size and I can marble 24 yds. (3 yds. each time). You may want to know how I empty the tanks, specially the big one. Each one has a faucet. 


                                ________________________________
                                From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:54 PM
                                Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric


                                 
                                Depends on the sizw of the tank, how thick the size, what is the size etc.

                                I do scarves for example on carrageenan, in a 9 foot tank and fit in three 90 X 54 silk habotais for each marble. I use about 4-6 gallons of size to yield 30-40 scarves. I do this only a few times a year really anymore. I use acrylics for these as well. I always have a fair amount of dirty size to dispose of but that's how it is, I couldn't marble any shallower once it gets down to an inch or so.

                                Hope that helps
                                Iris Nevins
                                www.marblingpaper.com

                                On 02/21/12, kmokri<kmokri@...> wrote:


                                I'm curious, how many pieces of fabric do you do out of one batch of size. I know this varies, but can you give me an approximate count? I think that I'm ruining my size really fast.
                                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, marines bengoa <mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote before, I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends, specially through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist like you. I have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many techniques I work with and one of my favorites.
                                >
                                > As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the Caribbean, warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and let it sit for a while to soften and then mix it until it dissolves.Â
                                >
                                > I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical than caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae. Price is important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray takes about 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff works fine. The residue may be a characteristic of this product.
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                                > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                >
                                >
                                > Â
                                > Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also make wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem with size or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I marble a piece I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til the residue is off and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff in the end. All I do is line dry them, then iron and package them. I skip the dryer, the iron seems to be plenty heat to set anything.
                                >
                                > I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way with it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has used the hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as soon as it dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too if I stored it and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of least resistance is all and try not to complicate things if not needed. It seems to work anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works for us is best, and what is most comfortable is best for each marbler. There really is no right or wrong to it as long as you get the proper result. I have tried pre-washing with no different result so stopped. The only rinse is after in the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It gets all the alum and size off the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no sign of deteriorating, except for the rough housing I tend to give any wearable with rough country life and spilling things
                                > on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived, if a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood etc, Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot hot irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art Brand and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the fact that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.
                                >
                                > Iris Nevins
                                > www.marblingpaper.com
                                >
                                >
                                > On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever heard.Â
                                >
                                > Â I use hot water only as the last step of the process, when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and silk.Â
                                >
                                > I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                >
                                >
                                > Â
                                > Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
                                > say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.
                                >
                                > Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.
                                >
                                > Iris Nevins
                                > www.marblingpaper.com
                                >
                                > On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
                                > remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
                                > iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                                > where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
                                > the hard way.
                                >
                                > I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
                                > regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or two
                                > of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread better.
                                > I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
                                > over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
                                > with watercolors, not acrylics.
                                >
                                > Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin. You
                                > should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
                                > tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
                                > paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
                                > still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments have
                                > different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
                                > two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
                                > to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.
                                >
                                > I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
                                > around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24 hours
                                > to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
                                > a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the dryer
                                > again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.
                                >
                                > hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
                                > anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self taught
                                > and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                                > Sue
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >

                                ------------------------------------

                                Yahoo! Groups Links




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Deluwiel Xox
                                wow!  I think I ve been mixing up and throwing away too much size!  I have a tank that s about 18 x 76 and I ve been filling it with 8 gallons - this
                                Message 15 of 29 , Feb 22, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  wow!  I think I've been mixing up and throwing away too much size!  I have a tank that's about 18" x 76" and I've been filling it with 8 gallons - this brings the level up to about 1.5".  If I only put in 4 gals I think I'd only have about 3/4" of size in there... is this deep enough?  (I marble silk - my process is pretty much the same as the others who have replied except I've found that I don't need to soak the fabric in the alum for any length of time, but just dip, squeeze out, and dry, then lightly iron to get the creases out). I've prewashed and not prewashed; charmeuse silk from Dharma comes out great either way.  I've used Golden Acrylics, the Ph. Martin Spectralites, and Jacquard opaque and metallic airbrush colors.  For me, some of the Spectralite colors seem to be fussy about floating on top of other colors so some of them have to be dropped on first; the Goldens all float pretty well mixed just with distilled water and their GAC 900 or
                                  whatever it's called heat set medium; it's not too often I need a dispersant with any of those except the gold and silver metallics which need a little nudge.  Same with the Jacquard - for the most part theyare easy to work with.  I've had good success with them except for the copper - that one just won't float no matter what I do!  Too bad because it's really pretty.  Marble, swish in clear water, gently squeeze.  Air dry, then heat set (I've used an iron and the dryer and both work fine - obviously the dryer is way more efficient!)  I do a rinse in just a splash of vinegar in cool water (maybe it's my imagination, but I think the vinegar helps bring up the sheen) and then hang to dry, final ironing to get all the wrinkles out.  I'm with Iris - if you can skip some of the extraneous or unneccessary steps, by all means!  My time for marbling is limited so I don't want to waste any of it fiddling around with stuff I don't really need to!

                                  From: marines bengoa <mbengoaduprey@...>

                                  To: "Marbling@yahoogroups.com" <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:41 PM
                                  Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric


                                   
                                  The tank I use for scarves is 17" X 66". It takes 4 gals. of size and I can marble about 18 scarves. The one for fabric is 118" X 47". It takes 15 gals. of size and I can marble 24 yds. (3 yds. each time). You may want to know how I empty the tanks, specially the big one. Each one has a faucet. 

                                  ________________________________
                                  From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:54 PM
                                  Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric


                                   
                                  Depends on the sizw of the tank, how thick the size, what is the size etc.

                                  I do scarves for example on carrageenan, in a 9 foot tank and fit in three 90 X 54 silk habotais for each marble. I use about 4-6 gallons of size to yield 30-40 scarves. I do this only a few times a year really anymore. I use acrylics for these as well. I always have a fair amount of dirty size to dispose of but that's how it is, I couldn't marble any shallower once it gets down to an inch or so.

                                  Hope that helps
                                  Iris Nevins
                                  www.marblingpaper.com

                                  On 02/21/12, kmokri<kmokri@...> wrote:

                                  I'm curious, how many pieces of fabric do you do out of one batch of size. I know this varies, but can you give me an approximate count? I think that I'm ruining my size really fast.
                                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, marines bengoa <mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote before, I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends, specially through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist like you. I have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many techniques I work with and one of my favorites.
                                  >
                                  > As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the Caribbean, warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and let it sit for a while to soften and then mix it until it dissolves.Â
                                  >
                                  > I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical than caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae. Price is important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray takes about 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff works fine. The residue may be a characteristic of this product.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                  > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Â
                                  > Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also make wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem with size or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I marble a piece I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til the residue is off and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff in the end. All I do is line dry them, then iron and package them. I skip the dryer, the iron seems to be plenty heat to set anything.
                                  >
                                  > I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way with it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has used the hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as soon as it dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too if I stored it and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of least resistance is all and try not to complicate things if not needed. It seems to work anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works for us is best, and what is most comfortable is best for each marbler. There really is no right or wrong to it as long as you get the proper result. I have tried pre-washing with no different result so stopped. The only rinse is after in the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It gets all the alum and size off the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no sign of deteriorating, except for the rough housing I tend to give any wearable with rough country life and spilling things
                                  > on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived, if a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood etc, Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot hot irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art Brand and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the fact that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.
                                  >
                                  > Iris Nevins
                                  > www.marblingpaper.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever heard.Â
                                  >
                                  > Â I use hot water only as the last step of the process, when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and silk.Â
                                  >
                                  > I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                  > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                                  > Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Â
                                  > Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
                                  > say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.
                                  >
                                  > Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.
                                  >
                                  > Iris Nevins
                                  > www.marblingpaper.com
                                  >
                                  > On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
                                  > remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
                                  > iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                                  > where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
                                  > the hard way.
                                  >
                                  > I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
                                  > regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or two
                                  > of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread better.
                                  > I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
                                  > over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
                                  > with watercolors, not acrylics.
                                  >
                                  > Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin. You
                                  > should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
                                  > tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
                                  > paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
                                  > still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments have
                                  > different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
                                  > two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
                                  > to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.
                                  >
                                  > I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
                                  > around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24 hours
                                  > to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
                                  > a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the dryer
                                  > again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.
                                  >
                                  > hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
                                  > anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self taught
                                  > and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                                  > Sue
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >

                                  ------------------------------------

                                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Anne Peters
                                  Iris, Is the minimum depth of the size one inch? Thanks, Anne ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Feb 22, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Iris, Is the minimum depth of the size one inch?
                                    Thanks, Anne

                                    On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 6:41 PM, marines bengoa <mbengoaduprey@...>wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The tank I use for scarves is 17" X 66". It takes 4 gals. of size and I
                                    > can marble about 18 scarves. The one for fabric is 118" X 47". It takes 15
                                    > gals. of size and I can marble 24 yds. (3 yds. each time). You may want to
                                    > know how I empty the tanks, specially the big one. Each one has a faucet.
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                    > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:54 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Depends on the sizw of the tank, how thick the size, what is the size etc.
                                    >
                                    > I do scarves for example on carrageenan, in a 9 foot tank and fit in three
                                    > 90 X 54 silk habotais for each marble. I use about 4-6 gallons of size to
                                    > yield 30-40 scarves. I do this only a few times a year really anymore. I
                                    > use acrylics for these as well. I always have a fair amount of dirty size
                                    > to dispose of but that's how it is, I couldn't marble any shallower once it
                                    > gets down to an inch or so.
                                    >
                                    > Hope that helps
                                    > Iris Nevins
                                    > www.marblingpaper.com
                                    >
                                    > On 02/21/12, kmokri<kmokri@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I'm curious, how many pieces of fabric do you do out of one batch of size.
                                    > I know this varies, but can you give me an approximate count? I think that
                                    > I'm ruining my size really fast.
                                    > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, marines bengoa <mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote before,
                                    > I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends, specially
                                    > through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist like you. I
                                    > have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many techniques I
                                    > work with and one of my favorites.
                                    > >
                                    > > As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the Caribbean,
                                    > warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and let it sit for
                                    > a while to soften and then mix it until it dissolves.�
                                    > >
                                    > > I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical than
                                    > caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae. Price is
                                    > important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray takes about
                                    > 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff works fine. The
                                    > residue may be a characteristic of this product.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ________________________________
                                    > > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                    > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > �
                                    > > Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it is
                                    > usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also make
                                    > wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem with size
                                    > or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I marble a piece
                                    > I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til the residue is off
                                    > and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff in the end. All I do
                                    > is line dry them, then iron and package them. I skip the dryer, the iron
                                    > seems to be plenty heat to set anything.
                                    > >
                                    > > I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way with
                                    > it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has used the
                                    > hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as soon as it
                                    > dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too if I stored it
                                    > and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of least resistance
                                    > is all and try not to complicate things if not needed. It seems to work
                                    > anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works for us is best, and
                                    > what is most comfortable is best for each marbler. There really is no right
                                    > or wrong to it as long as you get the proper result. I have tried
                                    > pre-washing with no different result so stopped. The only rinse is after in
                                    > the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It gets all the alum and size off
                                    > the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no sign of deteriorating, except for
                                    > the rough housing I tend to give any wearable with rough country life and
                                    > spilling things
                                    > > on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived, if
                                    > a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood etc,
                                    > Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot hot
                                    > irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art Brand
                                    > and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the fact
                                    > that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.
                                    > >
                                    > > Iris Nevins
                                    > > www.marblingpaper.com
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the
                                    > paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes
                                    > off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with alum. As a
                                    > matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever heard.��
                                    > >
                                    > > �� I use hot water only as the last step of the process, when I add
                                    > Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I do fabrics for
                                    > garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and silk.��
                                    > >
                                    > > I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu
                                    > supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.
                                    > >
                                    > > ________________________________
                                    > > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                    > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ��
                                    > > Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or
                                    > anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to
                                    > wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and
                                    > washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake
                                    > bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than
                                    > anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your
                                    > life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I
                                    > started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any
                                    > instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe
                                    > there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then
                                    > success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend
                                    > it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why
                                    > bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with
                                    > success, and I kid and
                                    > > say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply
                                    > to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people
                                    > think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as
                                    > possible, it's just more fun that way.
                                    > >
                                    > > Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper
                                    > towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully
                                    > lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right
                                    > there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could
                                    > also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if
                                    > static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.
                                    > >
                                    > > Iris Nevins
                                    > > www.marblingpaper.com
                                    > >
                                    > > On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
                                    > > remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
                                    > > iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                                    > > where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
                                    > > the hard way.
                                    > >
                                    > > I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
                                    > > regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or
                                    > two
                                    > > of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread
                                    > better.
                                    > > I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
                                    > > over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
                                    > > with watercolors, not acrylics.
                                    > >
                                    > > Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin.
                                    > You
                                    > > should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
                                    > > tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
                                    > > paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
                                    > > still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments
                                    > have
                                    > > different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
                                    > > two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
                                    > > to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.
                                    > >
                                    > > I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
                                    > > around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24
                                    > hours
                                    > > to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
                                    > > a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the
                                    > dryer
                                    > > again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.
                                    > >
                                    > > hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
                                    > > anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self
                                    > taught
                                    > > and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                                    > > Sue
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • irisnevins
                                    Anne....I break all the rules, because mainly I never learned them. Whatever works for is is what is right, depth, paint, water, whatever. I have marbled on
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Feb 22, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Anne....I break all the rules, because mainly I never learned them. Whatever works for is is what is right, depth, paint, water, whatever. I have marbled on way less than that at the end of large jobs and gotten away with it!
                                      Iris Nevins
                                      www.marblingpaper.com


                                      On 02/22/12, Anne Peters<mypeonies@...> wrote:

                                      Iris, Is the minimum depth of the size one inch?
                                      Thanks, Anne

                                      On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 6:41 PM, marines bengoa <mbengoaduprey@...>wrote:

                                      > **
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > The tank I use for scarves is 17" X 66". It takes 4 gals. of size and I
                                      > can marble about 18 scarves. The one for fabric is 118" X 47". It takes 15
                                      > gals. of size and I can marble 24 yds. (3 yds. each time). You may want to
                                      > know how I empty the tanks, specially the big one. Each one has a faucet.
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:54 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Depends on the sizw of the tank, how thick the size, what is the size etc.
                                      >
                                      > I do scarves for example on carrageenan, in a 9 foot tank and fit in three
                                      > 90 X 54 silk habotais for each marble. I use about 4-6 gallons of size to
                                      > yield 30-40 scarves. I do this only a few times a year really anymore. I
                                      > use acrylics for these as well. I always have a fair amount of dirty size
                                      > to dispose of but that's how it is, I couldn't marble any shallower once it
                                      > gets down to an inch or so.
                                      >
                                      > Hope that helps
                                      > Iris Nevins
                                      > www.marblingpaper.com
                                      >
                                      > On 02/21/12, kmokri<kmokri@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I'm curious, how many pieces of fabric do you do out of one batch of size.
                                      > I know this varies, but can you give me an approximate count? I think that
                                      > I'm ruining my size really fast.
                                      > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, marines bengoa <mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote before,
                                      > I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends, specially
                                      > through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist like you. I
                                      > have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many techniques I
                                      > work with and one of my favorites.
                                      > >
                                      > > As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the Caribbean,
                                      > warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and let it sit for
                                      > a while to soften and then mix it until it dissolves.�
                                      > >
                                      > > I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical than
                                      > caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae. Price is
                                      > important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray takes about
                                      > 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff works fine. The
                                      > residue may be a characteristic of this product.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ________________________________
                                      > > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                      > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > �
                                      > > Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it is
                                      > usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also make
                                      > wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem with size
                                      > or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I marble a piece
                                      > I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til the residue is off
                                      > and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff in the end. All I do
                                      > is line dry them, then iron and package them. I skip the dryer, the iron
                                      > seems to be plenty heat to set anything.
                                      > >
                                      > > I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way with
                                      > it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has used the
                                      > hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as soon as it
                                      > dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too if I stored it
                                      > and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of least resistance
                                      > is all and try not to complicate things if not needed. It seems to work
                                      > anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works for us is best, and
                                      > what is most comfortable is best for each marbler. There really is no right
                                      > or wrong to it as long as you get the proper result. I have tried
                                      > pre-washing with no different result so stopped. The only rinse is after in
                                      > the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It gets all the alum and size off
                                      > the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no sign of deteriorating, except for
                                      > the rough housing I tend to give any wearable with rough country life and
                                      > spilling things
                                      > > on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived, if
                                      > a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood etc,
                                      > Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot hot
                                      > irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art Brand
                                      > and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the fact
                                      > that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.
                                      > >
                                      > > Iris Nevins
                                      > > www.marblingpaper.com
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the
                                      > paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes
                                      > off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with alum. As a
                                      > matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever heard.Â
                                      > >
                                      > > Â I use hot water only as the last step of the process, when I add
                                      > Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I do fabrics for
                                      > garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and silk.Â
                                      > >
                                      > > I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu
                                      > supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.
                                      > >
                                      > > ________________________________
                                      > > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                      > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Â
                                      > > Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or
                                      > anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to
                                      > wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and
                                      > washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake
                                      > bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than
                                      > anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your
                                      > life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I
                                      > started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any
                                      > instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe
                                      > there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then
                                      > success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend
                                      > it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why
                                      > bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with
                                      > success, and I kid and
                                      > > say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply
                                      > to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people
                                      > think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as
                                      > possible, it's just more fun that way.
                                      > >
                                      > > Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper
                                      > towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully
                                      > lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right
                                      > there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could
                                      > also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if
                                      > static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.
                                      > >
                                      > > Iris Nevins
                                      > > www.marblingpaper.com
                                      > >
                                      > > On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
                                      > > remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
                                      > > iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                                      > > where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
                                      > > the hard way.
                                      > >
                                      > > I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
                                      > > regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or
                                      > two
                                      > > of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread
                                      > better.
                                      > > I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
                                      > > over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
                                      > > with watercolors, not acrylics.
                                      > >
                                      > > Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin.
                                      > You
                                      > > should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
                                      > > tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
                                      > > paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
                                      > > still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments
                                      > have
                                      > > different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
                                      > > two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
                                      > > to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.
                                      > >
                                      > > I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
                                      > > around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24
                                      > hours
                                      > > to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
                                      > > a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the
                                      > dryer
                                      > > again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.
                                      > >
                                      > > hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
                                      > > anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self
                                      > taught
                                      > > and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                                      > > Sue
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > > ------------------------------------
                                      > >
                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > > ------------------------------------
                                      > >
                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                      ------------------------------------

                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • irisnevins
                                      To make life easier, I swear by the cheap paints in Walmart or big craft stores, the Ceram Coat or Folk Art Brand. Not all colors or batches always work, just
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Feb 22, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        To make life easier, I swear by the cheap paints in Walmart or big craft stores, the Ceram Coat or Folk Art Brand. Not all colors or batches always work, just find a few that do. they are under a dollar a bottle. I use my rotten lousy not supposed to marble with hot tap water. No additives, chemicals, just seaweed. I don't pre-wash, never heard of synthrapol in my early days, never heard of a thing beyond dispersant, paint, size, rotten hard water. Distilled water, I only use it to make paints for sale because it is expected. I have run out of paints for my own use, and made paints for myself, same formulas, using the rotten hard water and they were BETTER. Still I use only distilled for sale, because there could be some trouble and we at least can rule out the water as an issue. My own bottles... made the same but with tap water. I have made size with soft rain water, distilled water, spring water, and find no difference except the hard water needs a little more size powder.

                                        So not knowing rules, I guess I was exempt from these rules, LOL. Sometimes I wonder are people selling this stuff and saying you "need" it but you don't really? I guess it improves things for some, but for me it just complicates things. I heat set once for fabric, since I have to iron out the wrinkles on the finished pieces anyway. I have experimented with NOT heat setting and it was just as set. So to each his or her own, but I'd suggest maybe trying without all the stuff we never even heard of 34 years back. All of the long history of marbling too, they only used the simplest materials.

                                        IrisNevins
                                        www.marblingpaper.com



                                        On 02/22/12, Deluwiel Xox<deluwiel1209@...> wrote:

                                        wow!� I think I've been mixing up and throwing away too much size!� I have a tank that's about 18" x 76" and I've been filling it with 8 gallons - this brings the level up to about 1.5".� If I only put in 4 gals I think I'd only have about 3/4" of size in there... is this deep enough?� (I marble silk - my process is pretty much the same as the others who have replied except I've found that I don't need to soak the fabric in the alum for any length of time, but just dip, squeeze out, and dry, then lightly iron to get the creases out). I've prewashed and not prewashed; charmeuse silk from Dharma comes out great either way.� I've used Golden Acrylics, the Ph. Martin Spectralites, and Jacquard opaque and metallic airbrush colors.� For me, some of the Spectralite colors seem to be fussy about floating on top of other colors so some of them have to be dropped on first; the Goldens all float pretty well mixed just with distilled water and their GAC 900 or
                                        whatever it's called heat set medium; it's not too often I need a dispersant with any of those except the gold and silver metallics which need a little nudge.� Same with the Jacquard - for the most part theyare easy to work with.� I've had good success with them except for the copper - that one just won't float no matter what I do!� Too bad because it's really pretty.� Marble, swish in clear water, gently squeeze.� Air dry, then heat set (I've used an iron and the dryer and both work fine - obviously the dryer is way more efficient!)� I do a rinse in just a splash of vinegar in cool water (maybe it's my imagination, but I think the vinegar helps bring up the sheen) and then hang to dry, final ironing to get all the wrinkles out.� I'm with Iris - if you can skip some of the extraneous or unneccessary steps, by all means!� My time for marbling is limited so I don't want to waste any of it fiddling around with stuff I don't really need to!

                                        From: marines bengoa <mbengoaduprey@...>

                                        To: "Marbling@yahoogroups.com" <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:41 PM
                                        Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric



                                        The tank I use for scarves is 17" X 66". It takes 4 gals. of size and I can marble about 18 scarves. The one for fabric is 118" X 47". It takes 15 gals. of size and I can marble 24 yds. (3 yds. each time). You may want to know how I empty the tanks, specially the big one. Each one has a faucet.�

                                        ________________________________
                                        From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:54 PM
                                        Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric



                                        Depends on the sizw of the tank, how thick the size, what is the size etc.

                                        I do scarves for example on carrageenan, in a 9 foot tank and fit in three 90 X 54 silk habotais for each marble. I use about 4-6 gallons of size to yield 30-40 scarves. I do this only a few times a year really anymore. I use acrylics for these as well. I always have a fair amount of dirty size to dispose of but that's how it is, I couldn't marble any shallower once it gets down to an inch or so.

                                        Hope that helps
                                        Iris Nevins
                                        www.marblingpaper.com

                                        On 02/21/12, kmokri<kmokri@...> wrote:

                                        I'm curious, how many pieces of fabric do you do out of one batch of size. I know this varies, but can you give me an approximate count? I think that I'm ruining my size really fast.
                                        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, marines bengoa <mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote before, I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends, specially through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist like you. I have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many techniques I work with and one of my favorites.
                                        >
                                        > As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the Caribbean, warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and let it sit for a while to soften and then mix it until it dissolves.Â
                                        >
                                        > I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical than caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae. Price is important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray takes about 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff works fine. The residue may be a characteristic of this product.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                        > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                                        > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Â
                                        > Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also make wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem with size or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I marble a piece I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til the residue is off and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff in the end. All I do is line dry them, then iron and package them. I skip the dryer, the iron seems to be plenty heat to set anything.
                                        >
                                        > I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way with it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has used the hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as soon as it dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too if I stored it and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of least resistance is all and try not to complicate things if not needed. It seems to work anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works for us is best, and what is most comfortable is best for each marbler. There really is no right or wrong to it as long as you get the proper result. I have tried pre-washing with no different result so stopped. The only rinse is after in the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It gets all the alum and size off the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no sign of deteriorating, except for the rough housing I tend to give any wearable with rough country life and spilling things
                                        > on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived, if a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood etc, Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot hot irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art Brand and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the fact that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.
                                        >
                                        > Iris Nevins
                                        > www.marblingpaper.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On 02/20/12, marines bengoa<mbengoaduprey@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly) washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever heard.Â
                                        >
                                        > Â I use hot water only as the last step of the process, when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and silk.Â
                                        >
                                        > I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                                        > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                                        > Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Â
                                        > Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton, cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways, skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
                                        > say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.
                                        >
                                        > Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other and stick together.
                                        >
                                        > Iris Nevins
                                        > www.marblingpaper.com
                                        >
                                        > On 02/20/12, Sue Cole<akartisan@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol to
                                        > remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry and
                                        > iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                                        > where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and found out
                                        > the hard way.
                                        >
                                        > I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I use
                                        > regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop or two
                                        > of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread better.
                                        > I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before throwing it
                                        > over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox gall
                                        > with watercolors, not acrylics.
                                        >
                                        > Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too thin. You
                                        > should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have not
                                        > tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line of
                                        > paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I have
                                        > still had to thin some of them. You will find that different pigments have
                                        > different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders. The
                                        > two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting them
                                        > to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.
                                        >
                                        > I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish them
                                        > around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for 24 hours
                                        > to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for about
                                        > a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the dryer
                                        > again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.
                                        >
                                        > hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is there
                                        > anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self taught
                                        > and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                                        > Sue
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >

                                        ------------------------------------

                                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                        ------------------------------------

                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • Joan
                                        Iris, am I right in assuming that you do not need to alum paper or cotton if you use acrylics.Joan ... craft stores, the Ceram Coat or Folk Art Brand. Not all
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Mar 6, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Iris, am I right in assuming that you do not need to alum paper or
                                          cotton if you use acrylics.Joan

                                          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > To make life easier, I swear by the cheap paints in Walmart or big
                                          craft stores, the Ceram Coat or Folk Art Brand. Not all colors or
                                          batches always work, just find a few that do. they are under a dollar a
                                          bottle. I use my rotten lousy not supposed to marble with hot tap water.
                                          No additives, chemicals, just seaweed. I don't pre-wash, never heard of
                                          synthrapol in my early days, never heard of a thing beyond dispersant,
                                          paint, size, rotten hard water. Distilled water, I only use it to make
                                          paints for sale because it is expected. I have run out of paints for my
                                          own use, and made paints for myself, same formulas, using the rotten
                                          hard water and they were BETTER. Still I use only distilled for sale,
                                          because there could be some trouble and we at least can rule out the
                                          water as an issue. My own bottles... made the same but with tap water. I
                                          have made size with soft rain water, distilled water, spring water, and
                                          find no difference except the hard water needs a little more size
                                          powder.
                                          >
                                          > So not knowing rules, I guess I was exempt from these rules, LOL.
                                          Sometimes I wonder are people selling this stuff and saying you "need"
                                          it but you don't really? I guess it improves things for some, but for me
                                          it just complicates things. I heat set once for fabric, since I have to
                                          iron out the wrinkles on the finished pieces anyway. I have experimented
                                          with NOT heat setting and it was just as set. So to each his or her own,
                                          but I'd suggest maybe trying without all the stuff we never even heard
                                          of 34 years back. All of the long history of marbling too, they only
                                          used the simplest materials.
                                          >
                                          > IrisNevins
                                          > www.marblingpaper.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On 02/22/12, Deluwiel Xoxdeluwiel1209@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > wow! I think I've been mixing up and throwing away too much
                                          size! I have a tank that's about 18" x 76" and I've been filling it
                                          with 8 gallons - this brings the level up to about 1.5". If I only
                                          put in 4 gals I think I'd only have about 3/4" of size in there... is
                                          this deep enough? (I marble silk - my process is pretty much the
                                          same as the others who have replied except I've found that I don't need
                                          to soak the fabric in the alum for any length of time, but just dip,
                                          squeeze out, and dry, then lightly iron to get the creases out). I've
                                          prewashed and not prewashed; charmeuse silk from Dharma comes out great
                                          either way. I've used Golden Acrylics, the Ph. Martin Spectralites,
                                          and Jacquard opaque and metallic airbrush colors. For me, some of
                                          the Spectralite colors seem to be fussy about floating on top of other
                                          colors so some of them have to be dropped on first; the Goldens all
                                          float pretty well mixed just with distilled water and their GAC 900 or
                                          > whatever it's called heat set medium; it's not too often I need a
                                          dispersant with any of those except the gold and silver metallics which
                                          need a little nudge. Same with the Jacquard - for the most part
                                          theyare easy to work with. I've had good success with them except
                                          for the copper - that one just won't float no matter what I do! Too
                                          bad because it's really pretty. Marble, swish in clear water, gently
                                          squeeze. Air dry, then heat set (I've used an iron and the dryer and
                                          both work fine - obviously the dryer is way more efficient!)Â I do a
                                          rinse in just a splash of vinegar in cool water (maybe it's my
                                          imagination, but I think the vinegar helps bring up the sheen) and then
                                          hang to dry, final ironing to get all the wrinkles out. I'm with
                                          Iris - if you can skip some of the extraneous or unneccessary steps, by
                                          all means! My time for marbling is limited so I don't want to waste
                                          any of it fiddling around with stuff I don't really need to!
                                          >
                                          > From: marines bengoa mbengoaduprey@...
                                          >
                                          > To: "Marbling@yahoogroups.com" Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:41 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Â
                                          > The tank I use for scarves is 17" X 66". It takes 4 gals. of size and
                                          I can marble about 18 scarves. The one for fabric is 118" X 47". It
                                          takes 15 gals. of size and I can marble 24 yds. (3 yds. each time). You
                                          may want to know how I empty the tanks, specially the big one. Each one
                                          has a faucet.Â
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________
                                          > From: irisnevins irisnevins@...
                                          > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:54 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Â
                                          > Depends on the sizw of the tank, how thick the size, what is the size
                                          etc.
                                          >
                                          > I do scarves for example on carrageenan, in a 9 foot tank and fit in
                                          three 90 X 54 silk habotais for each marble. I use about 4-6 gallons of
                                          size to yield 30-40 scarves. I do this only a few times a year really
                                          anymore. I use acrylics for these as well. I always have a fair amount
                                          of dirty size to dispose of but that's how it is, I couldn't marble any
                                          shallower once it gets down to an inch or so.
                                          >
                                          > Hope that helps
                                          > Iris Nevins
                                          > www.marblingpaper.com
                                          >
                                          > On 02/21/12, kmokrikmokri@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I'm curious, how many pieces of fabric do you do out of one batch of
                                          size. I know this varies, but can you give me an approximate count? I
                                          think that I'm ruining my size really fast.
                                          > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, marines bengoa mbengoaduprey@ wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote
                                          before, I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends,
                                          specially through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist
                                          like you. I have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many
                                          techniques I work with and one of my favorites.
                                          > >
                                          > > As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the
                                          Caribbean, warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and
                                          let it sit for a while to soften and then mix it until it
                                          dissolves.Â
                                          > >
                                          > > I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical
                                          than caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae.
                                          Price is important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray
                                          takes about 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff
                                          works fine. The residue may be a characteristic of this product.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ________________________________
                                          > > From: irisnevins irisnevins@
                                          > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                                          > > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Â
                                          > > Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it
                                          is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also
                                          make wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem
                                          with size or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I
                                          marble a piece I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til
                                          the residue is off and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff
                                          in the end. All I do is line dry them, then iron and package them. I
                                          skip the dryer, the iron seems to be plenty heat to set anything.
                                          > >
                                          > > I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way
                                          with it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has
                                          used the hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as
                                          soon as it dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too
                                          if I stored it and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of
                                          least resistance is all and try not to complicate things if not needed.
                                          It seems to work anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works
                                          for us is best, and what is most comfortable is best for each marbler.
                                          There really is no right or wrong to it as long as you get the proper
                                          result. I have tried pre-washing with no different result so stopped.
                                          The only rinse is after in the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It
                                          gets all the alum and size off the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no
                                          sign of deteriorating, except for the rough housing I tend to give any
                                          wearable with rough country life and spilling things
                                          > > on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived,
                                          if a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood
                                          etc, Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot
                                          hot irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art
                                          Brand and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the
                                          fact that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.
                                          > >
                                          > > Iris Nevins
                                          > > www.marblingpaper.com
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > On 02/20/12, marines bengoambengoaduprey@ wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the
                                          paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly)
                                          washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with
                                          alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever
                                          heard.Â
                                          > >
                                          > > Â I use hot water only as the last step of the process,
                                          when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I
                                          do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and
                                          silk.Â
                                          > >
                                          > > I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu
                                          supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.
                                          > >
                                          > > ________________________________
                                          > > From: irisnevins irisnevins@
                                          > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Â
                                          > > Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol
                                          or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I
                                          have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it
                                          alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton,
                                          cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics
                                          better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you
                                          should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do
                                          it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before
                                          there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash
                                          first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report
                                          problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I
                                          would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you
                                          don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways,
                                          skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
                                          > > say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't
                                          apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things
                                          people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as
                                          uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.
                                          > >
                                          > > Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old
                                          paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I
                                          carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are
                                          handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a
                                          problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to
                                          use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other
                                          and stick together.
                                          > >
                                          > > Iris Nevins
                                          > > www.marblingpaper.com
                                          > >
                                          > > On 02/20/12, Sue Coleakartisan@ wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol
                                          to
                                          > > remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry
                                          and
                                          > > iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                                          > > where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and
                                          found out
                                          > > the hard way.
                                          > >
                                          > > I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I
                                          use
                                          > > regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop
                                          or two
                                          > > of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread
                                          better.
                                          > > I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before
                                          throwing it
                                          > > over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox
                                          gall
                                          > > with watercolors, not acrylics.
                                          > >
                                          > > Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too
                                          thin. You
                                          > > should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have
                                          not
                                          > > tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line
                                          of
                                          > > paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I
                                          have
                                          > > still had to thin some of them. You will find that different
                                          pigments have
                                          > > different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders.
                                          The
                                          > > two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting
                                          them
                                          > > to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.
                                          > >
                                          > > I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish
                                          them
                                          > > around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for
                                          24 hours
                                          > > to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for
                                          about
                                          > > a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the
                                          dryer
                                          > > again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.
                                          > >
                                          > > hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is
                                          there
                                          > > anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self
                                          taught
                                          > > and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                                          > > Sue
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > > ------------------------------------
                                          > >
                                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > > ------------------------------------
                                          > >
                                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • irisnevins
                                          No you need alum unless you use high quality inkjet paper and use the coated side... you get two chances to figure out which side is coated, you can t see it.
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Mar 6, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            No you need alum unless you use high quality inkjet paper and use the coated side... you get two chances to figure out which side is coated, you can't see it.
                                            Iris Nevins
                                            www.marblingpaper.com

                                            On 03/06/12, Joan<rfnewman1@...> wrote:

                                            Iris, am I right in assuming that you do not need to alum paper or
                                            cotton if you use acrylics.Joan

                                            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > To make life easier, I swear by the cheap paints in Walmart or big
                                            craft stores, the Ceram Coat or Folk Art Brand. Not all colors or
                                            batches always work, just find a few that do. they are under a dollar a
                                            bottle. I use my rotten lousy not supposed to marble with hot tap water.
                                            No additives, chemicals, just seaweed. I don't pre-wash, never heard of
                                            synthrapol in my early days, never heard of a thing beyond dispersant,
                                            paint, size, rotten hard water. Distilled water, I only use it to make
                                            paints for sale because it is expected. I have run out of paints for my
                                            own use, and made paints for myself, same formulas, using the rotten
                                            hard water and they were BETTER. Still I use only distilled for sale,
                                            because there could be some trouble and we at least can rule out the
                                            water as an issue. My own bottles... made the same but with tap water. I
                                            have made size with soft rain water, distilled water, spring water, and
                                            find no difference except the hard water needs a little more size
                                            powder.
                                            >
                                            > So not knowing rules, I guess I was exempt from these rules, LOL.
                                            Sometimes I wonder are people selling this stuff and saying you "need"
                                            it but you don't really? I guess it improves things for some, but for me
                                            it just complicates things. I heat set once for fabric, since I have to
                                            iron out the wrinkles on the finished pieces anyway. I have experimented
                                            with NOT heat setting and it was just as set. So to each his or her own,
                                            but I'd suggest maybe trying without all the stuff we never even heard
                                            of 34 years back. All of the long history of marbling too, they only
                                            used the simplest materials.
                                            >
                                            > IrisNevins
                                            > www.marblingpaper.com
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On 02/22/12, Deluwiel Xoxdeluwiel1209@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > wow!� I think I've been mixing up and throwing away too much
                                            size!� I have a tank that's about 18" x 76" and I've been filling it
                                            with 8 gallons - this brings the level up to about 1.5".� If I only
                                            put in 4 gals I think I'd only have about 3/4" of size in there... is
                                            this deep enough?� (I marble silk - my process is pretty much the
                                            same as the others who have replied except I've found that I don't need
                                            to soak the fabric in the alum for any length of time, but just dip,
                                            squeeze out, and dry, then lightly iron to get the creases out). I've
                                            prewashed and not prewashed; charmeuse silk from Dharma comes out great
                                            either way.� I've used Golden Acrylics, the Ph. Martin Spectralites,
                                            and Jacquard opaque and metallic airbrush colors.� For me, some of
                                            the Spectralite colors seem to be fussy about floating on top of other
                                            colors so some of them have to be dropped on first; the Goldens all
                                            float pretty well mixed just with distilled water and their GAC 900 or
                                            > whatever it's called heat set medium; it's not too often I need a
                                            dispersant with any of those except the gold and silver metallics which
                                            need a little nudge.� Same with the Jacquard - for the most part
                                            theyare easy to work with.� I've had good success with them except
                                            for the copper - that one just won't float no matter what I do!� Too
                                            bad because it's really pretty.� Marble, swish in clear water, gently
                                            squeeze.� Air dry, then heat set (I've used an iron and the dryer and
                                            both work fine - obviously the dryer is way more efficient!)� I do a
                                            rinse in just a splash of vinegar in cool water (maybe it's my
                                            imagination, but I think the vinegar helps bring up the sheen) and then
                                            hang to dry, final ironing to get all the wrinkles out.� I'm with
                                            Iris - if you can skip some of the extraneous or unneccessary steps, by
                                            all means!� My time for marbling is limited so I don't want to waste
                                            any of it fiddling around with stuff I don't really need to!
                                            >
                                            > From: marines bengoa mbengoaduprey@...
                                            >
                                            > To: "Marbling@yahoogroups.com" Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:41 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > �
                                            > The tank I use for scarves is 17" X 66". It takes 4 gals. of size and
                                            I can marble about 18 scarves. The one for fabric is 118" X 47". It
                                            takes 15 gals. of size and I can marble 24 yds. (3 yds. each time). You
                                            may want to know how I empty the tanks, specially the big one. Each one
                                            has a faucet.�
                                            >
                                            > ________________________________
                                            > From: irisnevins irisnevins@...
                                            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:54 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > �
                                            > Depends on the sizw of the tank, how thick the size, what is the size
                                            etc.
                                            >
                                            > I do scarves for example on carrageenan, in a 9 foot tank and fit in
                                            three 90 X 54 silk habotais for each marble. I use about 4-6 gallons of
                                            size to yield 30-40 scarves. I do this only a few times a year really
                                            anymore. I use acrylics for these as well. I always have a fair amount
                                            of dirty size to dispose of but that's how it is, I couldn't marble any
                                            shallower once it gets down to an inch or so.
                                            >
                                            > Hope that helps
                                            > Iris Nevins
                                            > www.marblingpaper.com
                                            >
                                            > On 02/21/12, kmokrikmokri@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I'm curious, how many pieces of fabric do you do out of one batch of
                                            size. I know this varies, but can you give me an approximate count? I
                                            think that I'm ruining my size really fast.
                                            > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, marines bengoa mbengoaduprey@ wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote
                                            before, I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends,
                                            specially through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist
                                            like you. I have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many
                                            techniques I work with and one of my favorites.
                                            > >
                                            > > As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the
                                            Caribbean, warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and
                                            let it sit for a while to soften and then mix it until it
                                            dissolves.Â
                                            > >
                                            > > I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical
                                            than caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae.
                                            Price is important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray
                                            takes about 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff
                                            works fine. The residue may be a characteristic of this product.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > ________________________________
                                            > > From: irisnevins irisnevins@
                                            > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                                            > > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Â
                                            > > Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it
                                            is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also
                                            make wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem
                                            with size or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I
                                            marble a piece I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til
                                            the residue is off and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff
                                            in the end. All I do is line dry them, then iron and package them. I
                                            skip the dryer, the iron seems to be plenty heat to set anything.
                                            > >
                                            > > I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way
                                            with it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has
                                            used the hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as
                                            soon as it dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too
                                            if I stored it and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of
                                            least resistance is all and try not to complicate things if not needed.
                                            It seems to work anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works
                                            for us is best, and what is most comfortable is best for each marbler.
                                            There really is no right or wrong to it as long as you get the proper
                                            result. I have tried pre-washing with no different result so stopped.
                                            The only rinse is after in the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It
                                            gets all the alum and size off the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no
                                            sign of deteriorating, except for the rough housing I tend to give any
                                            wearable with rough country life and spilling things
                                            > > on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived,
                                            if a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood
                                            etc, Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot
                                            hot irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art
                                            Brand and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the
                                            fact that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.
                                            > >
                                            > > Iris Nevins
                                            > > www.marblingpaper.com
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > On 02/20/12, marines bengoambengoaduprey@ wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the
                                            paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly)
                                            washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with
                                            alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever
                                            heard.Â
                                            > >
                                            > > Â I use hot water only as the last step of the process,
                                            when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I
                                            do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and
                                            silk.Â
                                            > >
                                            > > I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu
                                            supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.
                                            > >
                                            > > ________________________________
                                            > > From: irisnevins irisnevins@
                                            > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                                            > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Â
                                            > > Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol
                                            or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I
                                            have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it
                                            alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton,
                                            cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics
                                            better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you
                                            should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do
                                            it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before
                                            there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash
                                            first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report
                                            problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I
                                            would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you
                                            don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways,
                                            skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
                                            > > say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't
                                            apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things
                                            people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as
                                            uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.
                                            > >
                                            > > Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old
                                            paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I
                                            carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are
                                            handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a
                                            problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to
                                            use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other
                                            and stick together.
                                            > >
                                            > > Iris Nevins
                                            > > www.marblingpaper.com
                                            > >
                                            > > On 02/20/12, Sue Coleakartisan@ wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol
                                            to
                                            > > remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry
                                            and
                                            > > iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                                            > > where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and
                                            found out
                                            > > the hard way.
                                            > >
                                            > > I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I
                                            use
                                            > > regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop
                                            or two
                                            > > of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread
                                            better.
                                            > > I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before
                                            throwing it
                                            > > over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox
                                            gall
                                            > > with watercolors, not acrylics.
                                            > >
                                            > > Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too
                                            thin. You
                                            > > should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have
                                            not
                                            > > tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line
                                            of
                                            > > paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I
                                            have
                                            > > still had to thin some of them. You will find that different
                                            pigments have
                                            > > different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders.
                                            The
                                            > > two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting
                                            them
                                            > > to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.
                                            > >
                                            > > I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish
                                            them
                                            > > around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for
                                            24 hours
                                            > > to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for
                                            about
                                            > > a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the
                                            dryer
                                            > > again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.
                                            > >
                                            > > hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is
                                            there
                                            > > anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self
                                            taught
                                            > > and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                                            > > Sue
                                            > >
                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >
                                            > > ------------------------------------
                                            > >
                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > >
                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >
                                            > > ------------------------------------
                                            > >
                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                            ------------------------------------

                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          • Joan Newman
                                            Thanks for the quick reply. Sent from my iPad ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Mar 6, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Thanks for the quick reply.

                                              Sent from my iPad

                                              On Mar 6, 2012, at 8:18 PM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:

                                              >
                                              > No you need alum unless you use high quality inkjet paper and use the coated side... you get two chances to figure out which side is coated, you can't see it.
                                              > Iris Nevins
                                              > www.marblingpaper.com
                                              >
                                              > On 03/06/12, Joan<rfnewman1@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Iris, am I right in assuming that you do not need to alum paper or
                                              > cotton if you use acrylics.Joan
                                              >
                                              > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > To make life easier, I swear by the cheap paints in Walmart or big
                                              > craft stores, the Ceram Coat or Folk Art Brand. Not all colors or
                                              > batches always work, just find a few that do. they are under a dollar a
                                              > bottle. I use my rotten lousy not supposed to marble with hot tap water.
                                              > No additives, chemicals, just seaweed. I don't pre-wash, never heard of
                                              > synthrapol in my early days, never heard of a thing beyond dispersant,
                                              > paint, size, rotten hard water. Distilled water, I only use it to make
                                              > paints for sale because it is expected. I have run out of paints for my
                                              > own use, and made paints for myself, same formulas, using the rotten
                                              > hard water and they were BETTER. Still I use only distilled for sale,
                                              > because there could be some trouble and we at least can rule out the
                                              > water as an issue. My own bottles... made the same but with tap water. I
                                              > have made size with soft rain water, distilled water, spring water, and
                                              > find no difference except the hard water needs a little more size
                                              > powder.
                                              > >
                                              > > So not knowing rules, I guess I was exempt from these rules, LOL.
                                              > Sometimes I wonder are people selling this stuff and saying you "need"
                                              > it but you don't really? I guess it improves things for some, but for me
                                              > it just complicates things. I heat set once for fabric, since I have to
                                              > iron out the wrinkles on the finished pieces anyway. I have experimented
                                              > with NOT heat setting and it was just as set. So to each his or her own,
                                              > but I'd suggest maybe trying without all the stuff we never even heard
                                              > of 34 years back. All of the long history of marbling too, they only
                                              > used the simplest materials.
                                              > >
                                              > > IrisNevins
                                              > > www.marblingpaper.com
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > On 02/22/12, Deluwiel Xoxdeluwiel1209@... wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > wow!� I think I've been mixing up and throwing away too much
                                              > size!� I have a tank that's about 18" x 76" and I've been filling it
                                              > with 8 gallons - this brings the level up to about 1.5".� If I only
                                              > put in 4 gals I think I'd only have about 3/4" of size in there... is
                                              > this deep enough?� (I marble silk - my process is pretty much the
                                              > same as the others who have replied except I've found that I don't need
                                              > to soak the fabric in the alum for any length of time, but just dip,
                                              > squeeze out, and dry, then lightly iron to get the creases out). I've
                                              > prewashed and not prewashed; charmeuse silk from Dharma comes out great
                                              > either way.� I've used Golden Acrylics, the Ph. Martin Spectralites,
                                              > and Jacquard opaque and metallic airbrush colors.� For me, some of
                                              > the Spectralite colors seem to be fussy about floating on top of other
                                              > colors so some of them have to be dropped on first; the Goldens all
                                              > float pretty well mixed just with distilled water and their GAC 900 or
                                              > > whatever it's called heat set medium; it's not too often I need a
                                              > dispersant with any of those except the gold and silver metallics which
                                              > need a little nudge.� Same with the Jacquard - for the most part
                                              > theyare easy to work with.� I've had good success with them except
                                              > for the copper - that one just won't float no matter what I do!� Too
                                              > bad because it's really pretty.� Marble, swish in clear water, gently
                                              > squeeze.� Air dry, then heat set (I've used an iron and the dryer and
                                              > both work fine - obviously the dryer is way more efficient!)� I do a
                                              > rinse in just a splash of vinegar in cool water (maybe it's my
                                              > imagination, but I think the vinegar helps bring up the sheen) and then
                                              > hang to dry, final ironing to get all the wrinkles out.� I'm with
                                              > Iris - if you can skip some of the extraneous or unneccessary steps, by
                                              > all means!� My time for marbling is limited so I don't want to waste
                                              > any of it fiddling around with stuff I don't really need to!
                                              > >
                                              > > From: marines bengoa mbengoaduprey@...
                                              > >
                                              > > To: "Marbling@yahoogroups.com" Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:41 PM
                                              > > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > �
                                              > > The tank I use for scarves is 17" X 66". It takes 4 gals. of size and
                                              > I can marble about 18 scarves. The one for fabric is 118" X 47". It
                                              > takes 15 gals. of size and I can marble 24 yds. (3 yds. each time). You
                                              > may want to know how I empty the tanks, specially the big one. Each one
                                              > has a faucet.�
                                              > >
                                              > > ________________________________
                                              > > From: irisnevins irisnevins@...
                                              > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:54 PM
                                              > > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > �
                                              > > Depends on the sizw of the tank, how thick the size, what is the size
                                              > etc.
                                              > >
                                              > > I do scarves for example on carrageenan, in a 9 foot tank and fit in
                                              > three 90 X 54 silk habotais for each marble. I use about 4-6 gallons of
                                              > size to yield 30-40 scarves. I do this only a few times a year really
                                              > anymore. I use acrylics for these as well. I always have a fair amount
                                              > of dirty size to dispose of but that's how it is, I couldn't marble any
                                              > shallower once it gets down to an inch or so.
                                              > >
                                              > > Hope that helps
                                              > > Iris Nevins
                                              > > www.marblingpaper.com
                                              > >
                                              > > On 02/21/12, kmokrikmokri@... wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > I'm curious, how many pieces of fabric do you do out of one batch of
                                              > size. I know this varies, but can you give me an approximate count? I
                                              > think that I'm ruining my size really fast.
                                              > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, marines bengoa mbengoaduprey@ wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > You are right. Everyone has its own way of working. Like I wrote
                                              > before, I'm a self taught marbler, I'm still learning as it never ends,
                                              > specially through this wonderful group and great and experienced artist
                                              > like you. I have been marbling for 4 years. Marbling is one of so many
                                              > techniques I work with and one of my favorites.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > As for water temperature for alum, maybe since I live in the
                                              > Caribbean, warm tap water is cold for me. I just add alum to water and
                                              > let it sit for a while to soften and then mix it until it
                                              > dissolves.Â
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I use Marbo Gum from Pro Chem for my size. It is more economical
                                              > than caghrageenan, which I have never used and it is made out of algae.
                                              > Price is important for me because I marble yards of fabric. My big tray
                                              > takes about 15 gallons of size for three yards of fabric. This stuff
                                              > works fine. The residue may be a characteristic of this product.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ________________________________
                                              > > > From: irisnevins irisnevins@
                                              > > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:29 PM
                                              > > > Subject: Re: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Â
                                              > > > Hmmm...I have always used hot tap water to dissolve my alum and it
                                              > is usually still warm when I use it, whether fabric or paper. I also
                                              > make wearable silk when I do fabric yet have never had a scaly problem
                                              > with size or residue. Are you using methyl cel or carrageenan? After I
                                              > marble a piece I drop it into a bucket of water and gently swirl it til
                                              > the residue is off and hang it to dry. My silks come out soft, not stiff
                                              > in the end. All I do is line dry them, then iron and package them. I
                                              > skip the dryer, the iron seems to be plenty heat to set anything.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I was never taught to marble, nor shown how, and made my own way
                                              > with it, maybe I marble all wrong, but every marbler I have known has
                                              > used the hot water to dissolve the alum and most would work with it as
                                              > soon as it dissolved, leaving a warm solution, I have used it cold too
                                              > if I stored it and it worked exactly the same. I try to take the path of
                                              > least resistance is all and try not to complicate things if not needed.
                                              > It seems to work anyway. We all marble differently and whatever works
                                              > for us is best, and what is most comfortable is best for each marbler.
                                              > There really is no right or wrong to it as long as you get the proper
                                              > result. I have tried pre-washing with no different result so stopped.
                                              > The only rinse is after in the bucket of plain old hard tap water. It
                                              > gets all the alum and size off the fabric. 30+ year old pieces show no
                                              > sign of deteriorating, except for the rough housing I tend to give any
                                              > wearable with rough country life and spilling things
                                              > > > on them, I am clumsy for sure! Even considering that, they survived,
                                              > if a bit stained with food, etc. or wood splinters from lugging firewood
                                              > etc, Colors intact. still feel soft after many hand washings and hot hot
                                              > hot irons. Much of it using really crappy cheap acrylics like Folk Art
                                              > Brand and Ceram Coat. Sometimes I am surprised by the durability and the
                                              > fact that the colors stay fresh and bright after many decades.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Iris Nevins
                                              > > > www.marblingpaper.com
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > On 02/20/12, marines bengoambengoaduprey@ wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I use syntrapol because I iron the fabric before washing to set the
                                              > paint and I want to make sure the dried size residue (kind of scaly)
                                              > washes off. I have found that there is no need to use hot water with
                                              > alum. As a matter of fact I never read of it. First time ever
                                              > heard.Â
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Â I use hot water only as the last step of the process,
                                              > when I add Milsoft and this is after I have rinsed the fabric. Since I
                                              > do fabrics for garments all this steps are necessary both for cotton and
                                              > silk.Â
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I never wash fabrics before starting because... let's say I trust mu
                                              > supplier when they state their fabrics are PFD.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ________________________________
                                              > > > From: irisnevins irisnevins@
                                              > > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:39 AM
                                              > > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] marbling cotton fabric
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Â
                                              > > > Not necessarily. I have never ever once washed silks with Synthrapol
                                              > or anything at all, not even rinsed them. Not other fabrics either. I
                                              > have to wonder, since I alum them in a bucket with hot alum water if it
                                              > alums and washes sizing out in one step. I used habotai silks, cotton,
                                              > cheap fake bridesmaid's gown silk, which incidentally took the acrylics
                                              > better than anything and has a lovely sheen. My feeling is that you
                                              > should make your life easy. Try it this way without a pre wash, and do
                                              > it if it works. I started marbling fabric over 30 years ago, before
                                              > there were any instructions. I have never met a fabric I had to wash
                                              > first. I do believe there must be some out there, because people report
                                              > problems, and then success after washing first, so am not denying it. I
                                              > would even recommend it if needed. just saying try it without, if you
                                              > don't have to do it, why bother. I have some apparently odd ways,
                                              > skipping "essential" steps with success, and I kid and
                                              > > > say, no one knew about these essentials yet,. so their laws don't
                                              > apply to me! Seriously, I manage to marble with skipping certain things
                                              > people think are critical. So all I suggest is to make it as
                                              > uncomplicated as possible, it's just more fun that way.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Yes, you really must iron it flat before marbling. I hang an old
                                              > paper towel roll on a string, attached to my wall, As I iron them, I
                                              > carefully lay them over the roll, one over another, etc. Then they are
                                              > handy right there to be taken off the roll. Sometimes static is a
                                              > problem. You could also hang them from pins on the line until ready to
                                              > use, individually, if static is a problem and they electrify each other
                                              > and stick together.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Iris Nevins
                                              > > > www.marblingpaper.com
                                              > > >
                                              > > > On 02/20/12, Sue Coleakartisan@ wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > For cotton or silk, you must wash it first, usually with Synthrapol
                                              > to
                                              > > > remove any sizing, then soak it in an alum solution, hang it to dry
                                              > and
                                              > > > iron it. If it has any wrinkles, it won't pick up the paint properly
                                              > > > where it's wrinkled. I know, because I tried to belazy once and
                                              > found out
                                              > > > the hard way.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I've used both caragheenan and methyl cellulose for fabrics and I
                                              > use
                                              > > > regular acrylic paints, thinned down with water and sometimes a drop
                                              > or two
                                              > > > of either photo flo or acrylic release fluid - both help it spread
                                              > better.
                                              > > > I always test the paint first in a corner of the tank before
                                              > throwing it
                                              > > > over the whole tank to see if it's sinking or not. You only use ox
                                              > gall
                                              > > > with watercolors, not acrylics.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Dyes, to my knowledge anyway, will not work because they are too
                                              > thin. You
                                              > > > should use them for dyeing, which is what they are made for. I have
                                              > not
                                              > > > tried textile paints, but they might work. Prochem has a whole line
                                              > of
                                              > > > paints for marbling that are ready to use as they come, although I
                                              > have
                                              > > > still had to thin some of them. You will find that different
                                              > pigments have
                                              > > > different spreading rates. The blues especially are fast spreaders.
                                              > The
                                              > > > two colors I have the most problems with are black and red - getting
                                              > them
                                              > > > to look black and red on fabric instead of grey and pink.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I rinse the fabric after marbling in two buckets of water - swish
                                              > them
                                              > > > around like a dishcloth in the bucket of water, then hang them for
                                              > 24 hours
                                              > > > to dry and "set". Some people say to put them in the dryer next for
                                              > about
                                              > > > a half hour to heat set them, then put through a rinse cycle, in the
                                              > dryer
                                              > > > again and iron them. I have not had them fade after doing this.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > hope this is of some help - others may have different opnions. Is
                                              > there
                                              > > > anyone close by you that you can take a class from? I'm mostly self
                                              > taught
                                              > > > and youtube taught because the closest person to me is 6 hours away.
                                              > > > Sue
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ------------------------------------
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ------------------------------------
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ------------------------------------
                                              > >
                                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ------------------------------------
                                              > >
                                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • jennifer.motl
                                              Hi, thanks for sharing. I had heard this before and I just wanted to make sure that I read that right. I don t need to alum fabric if I am marbling with
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Aug 29, 2014
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hi, thanks for sharing. I had heard this before and I just wanted to make sure that I read that right. I don't need to alum fabric if I am marbling with acrylic fabric paints? This would be super helpful to skip that step and I am really excited at the idea! Please confirm. :-)
                                                Thanks!
                                                Jenny Motl (I'm a self-taught marbler and work on silk & cotton.)
                                              • jennifer.motl
                                                Oops, I just reread the thread and see I misunderstood: everyone is using alum. I had heard from a friend and fellow marbler that she saw Golden acrylics to
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Aug 29, 2014
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Oops, I just reread the thread and see I misunderstood: everyone is using alum. I had heard from a friend and fellow marbler that she saw Golden acrylics to stick to cotton fabric in a class without alum, but was not sure of washability.
                                                  I am finding that I spend so much time aluming the silk, ironing it before marbling, then ironing each scarf for 20 minutes to heat-set after marbling, then washing and ironing again. Basically I am spending more time ironing than painting.
                                                  Can anyone recommend time-saving steps? Or maybe paints that don't require heat-setting?
                                                  I have been using mostly Setacolor and DyeNaFlow acrylic paints, which need heat-setting. Just got some Versatex No-Heat fixer, but you have to let the fabric cure for a week, and I am worried that the silk will rot after being alumed for a week. (Although maybe I just have to relax and rinse better after pulling the marbled scarves off the size?)
                                                  I see ProChemical's marbling paints don't need to be heat-set but take a week to cure. Maybe I should try those? Has anyone had good experiences with those?
                                                  Also I have tried marbling with DecoArt SoSoft acrylics. They don't need heat-setting but do need a lot of thinning before they float.
                                                  Thanks in advance for your help!
                                                • irisnevins
                                                  When I do fabric, I do not iron after aluming unless incredibly creased. I find hanging to dry silk scarves, the creases dry out of them enough to marble. I
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Aug 30, 2014
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    When I do fabric, I do not iron after aluming unless incredibly creased. I find hanging to dry silk scarves, the creases dry out of them enough to marble. I then only iron after marbling, which both takes out wrinkles and heat sets.  I never would iron each for 20 minutes. I use the cheap garbage paints from the big stores like A.C.Moore, that work fine and have not faded in 30 years, nor washed off with hand soaking. Scrubbing can fade any surface design if you do it hard enough. So can washing machines. Carrageenan size. No additives. They didn't have them yet as far as I know when I started doing this, so we worked very simply and it worked. Sometimes people make it unnecessarily  complicated.

                                                    Iris Nevins
                                                    www.marblingpaper.com
                                                     
                                                     
                                                    On 08/30/14, jennifer.motl@... [Marbling]<Marbling@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                                     


                                                    Oops, I just reread the thread and see I misunderstood: everyone is using alum. I had heard from a friend and fellow marbler that she saw Golden acrylics to stick to cotton fabric in a class without alum, but was not sure of washability.
                                                    I am finding that I spend so much time aluming the silk, ironing it before marbling, then ironing each scarf for 20 minutes to heat-set after marbling, then washing and ironing again. Basically I am spending more time ironing than painting.
                                                    Can anyone recommend time-saving steps? Or maybe paints that don't require heat-setting?
                                                    I have been using mostly Setacolor and DyeNaFlow acrylic paints, which need heat-setting. Just got some Versatex No-Heat fixer, but you have to let the fabric cure for a week, and I am worried that the silk will rot after being alumed for a week. (Although maybe I just have to relax and rinse better after pulling the marbled scarves off the size?)
                                                    I see ProChemical's marbling paints don't need to be heat-set but take a week to cure. Maybe I should try those? Has anyone had good experiences with those?
                                                    Also I have tried marbling with DecoArt SoSoft acrylics. They don't need heat-setting but do need a lot of thinning before they float.
                                                    Thanks in advance for your help!

                                                  • jennifer.motl
                                                    Thanks, Iris, that is really, really helpful. I probably need to just relax and experiment with the paints! I really admire your work, so it is nice to hear
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Aug 30, 2014
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Thanks, Iris, that is really, really helpful. I probably need to just relax and experiment with the paints! I really admire your work, so it is nice to hear from you!
                                                      Jenny
                                                    • John Goode
                                                      it took many months for me too get the marbling process on fiber....it will take time to master the complexity of this craft be patient or it will not work.
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Aug 30, 2014
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        it took many months for me too get the marbling process on fiber....it will take time to master the complexity of this craft  be patient or it will not work.
                                                        Wishing you the best! John Goode

                                                      • jennifer.motl
                                                        Thanks, everyone! I got some new paints per your very helpful suggestions and will be using less alum the next time I marble silk. I am also a member of the
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Sep 16, 2014
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Thanks, everyone! I got some new paints per your very helpful suggestions and will be using less alum the next time I marble silk.
                                                          I am also a member of the Silk Artists team on Etsy.com -- most members paint silk scarves.
                                                          They recently asked me to write an article about marbling for their blog, and I’ll also be posting it on my own new blog. Since I am clearly a new marbler rather than an expert, I thought I would ask all of you, the experts!
                                                          Hopefully I am not being rude by asking this--not sure what the etiquette is, so if I have stepped outside the bounds, please correct me and chalk it up to my newness. :-)
                                                          I posted a short survey about tips for marbling on silk at jasminevelvet.com/ . Your answers are anonymous, however, if you’d like publicity, please include your full name & Web site so that I can credit you and hopefully send some traffic your way. Thanks!
                                                          Also, I will post an organized report of all your responses here next week so that everyone gets to share tips with each other and continue the discussion. Thanks again!
                                                          Jenny
                                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.