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Re: [Marbling] Re: Paper Buckles

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  • MH
    No, chipboard as in book board -- a gray cardboard that comes in different thicknesses. Art-supply stores will have it. MH Chipboard, as in masonite? Kathryn
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 14, 2012
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      No, chipboard as in book board -- a gray cardboard that comes in different thicknesses. Art-supply stores will have it.

      MH



      Chipboard, as in masonite?

      Kathryn

      ________________________________
      From: MH <bannerworks@...>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 8:22 PM
      Subject: [Marbling] Re: Paper Buckles



      I usually use a pretty lightweight paper that buckles as soon as I touch it with the sponge. I use chipboard (thin book board) and follow this procedure: I put down a sheet of chipboard, then alum a sheet and place it on the board, alum side up. Then I alum another sheet and place it face down on the first. Then another sheet of chipboard goes over them both and the process is repeated. The chipboard is an inch or two larger than the paper on all sides. I'll usually do 20-26 sheets at once. I do this the evening before I intend to marble.

      I then take the stack and cover it with a rubber blanket (plastic sheeting would work, too). Then I put a thick plywood board on top of the lot and put heavy weights on top of that -- two or three sewing machines work well. I let them sit over night. When I'm ready to marble the next day, I take the weights, the board, and the rubber blanket off, and I'm ready to go. The paper is nice and dry and very flat. The chipboard absorbs the moisture from the paper and the rubber blanket prevents the edges drying first, which will cause the edges to shrink while the center does not, preventing the paper from lying flat on the size.

      I've used this method with three or four different kinds of paper and find that it works a treat.

      --Marc Horovitz


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • kathryn fanelli
      MH Are you layering a sheet of chipboard between every  2 pieces of alumed paper? Or are you layering the papers with the chipboard on the bottom & top only
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 15, 2012
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        MH
        Are you layering a sheet of chipboard between every  2 pieces of alumed paper? Or are you layering the papers with the chipboard on the bottom & top only of the stack. 
         
        Kathryn




        ________________________________
        From: MH <bannerworks@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:06 PM
        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Paper Buckles


         
        No, chipboard as in book board -- a gray cardboard that comes in different thicknesses. Art-supply stores will have it.

        MH

        Chipboard, as in masonite?

        Kathryn

        ________________________________
        From: MH <bannerworks@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 8:22 PM
        Subject: [Marbling] Re: Paper Buckles

        I usually use a pretty lightweight paper that buckles as soon as I touch it with the sponge. I use chipboard (thin book board) and follow this procedure: I put down a sheet of chipboard, then alum a sheet and place it on the board, alum side up. Then I alum another sheet and place it face down on the first. Then another sheet of chipboard goes over them both and the process is repeated. The chipboard is an inch or two larger than the paper on all sides. I'll usually do 20-26 sheets at once. I do this the evening before I intend to marble.

        I then take the stack and cover it with a rubber blanket (plastic sheeting would work, too). Then I put a thick plywood board on top of the lot and put heavy weights on top of that -- two or three sewing machines work well. I let them sit over night. When I'm ready to marble the next day, I take the weights, the board, and the rubber blanket off, and I'm ready to go. The paper is nice and dry and very flat. The chipboard absorbs the moisture from the paper and the rubber blanket prevents the edges drying first, which will cause the edges to shrink while the center does not, preventing the paper from lying flat on the size.

        I've used this method with three or four different kinds of paper and find that it works a treat.

        --Marc Horovitz

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • irisnevins
        In my experience this absorbs the alum if kept very long. This may not be true with all papers, but the ones I have used. As in, this works for me if I marble
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 15, 2012
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          In my experience this absorbs the alum if kept very long. This may not be true with all papers, but the ones I have used. As in, this works for me if I marble them damp. I couldn't keep them three weeks this way and have them still work. I would use one blotter board at the bottom and another on top of the stack. We all work differently. I do know my method of dual hanging to bone dry works now for 34 year. Some paper will buckle more than others but it also depends on how wet you make the paper. I have not buckling issues, some curling ones, but that's wet paper for you. It's why I prefer to marble a dry flat sheet.
          Iris Nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com



          On 02/15/12, kathryn fanelli<kathrynfanelli@...> wrote:

          MH
          Are you layering a sheet of chipboard between every � 2 pieces of alumed paper? Or are you layering the papers with the chipboard on the bottom & top only of the stack.�

          Kathryn




          ________________________________
          From: MH <bannerworks@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:06 PM
          Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Paper Buckles



          No, chipboard as in book board -- a gray cardboard that comes in different thicknesses. Art-supply stores will have it.

          MH

          Chipboard, as in masonite?

          Kathryn

          ________________________________
          From: MH <bannerworks@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 8:22 PM
          Subject: [Marbling] Re: Paper Buckles

          I usually use a pretty lightweight paper that buckles as soon as I touch it with the sponge. I use chipboard (thin book board) and follow this procedure: I put down a sheet of chipboard, then alum a sheet and place it on the board, alum side up. Then I alum another sheet and place it face down on the first. Then another sheet of chipboard goes over them both and the process is repeated. The chipboard is an inch or two larger than the paper on all sides. I'll usually do 20-26 sheets at once. I do this the evening before I intend to marble.

          I then take the stack and cover it with a rubber blanket (plastic sheeting would work, too). Then I put a thick plywood board on top of the lot and put heavy weights on top of that -- two or three sewing machines work well. I let them sit over night. When I'm ready to marble the next day, I take the weights, the board, and the rubber blanket off, and I'm ready to go. The paper is nice and dry and very flat. The chipboard absorbs the moisture from the paper and the rubber blanket prevents the edges drying first, which will cause the edges to shrink while the center does not, preventing the paper from lying flat on the size.

          I've used this method with three or four different kinds of paper and find that it works a treat.

          --Marc Horovitz

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • MH
          HI Kathryn, I layer a sheet of chipboard between every two sheets of paper. That gives all sheets an equal chance to dry evenly. MH ... [Non-text portions of
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 15, 2012
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            HI Kathryn,

            I layer a sheet of chipboard between every two sheets of paper. That gives all sheets an equal chance to dry evenly.

            MH


            On Feb 15, 2012, at 10:31 AM, kathryn fanelli wrote:

            > MH
            > Are you layering a sheet of chipboard between every 2 pieces of alumed paper? Or are you layering the papers with the chipboard on the bottom & top only of the stack.
            >
            > Kathryn
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: MH <bannerworks@...>
            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:06 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Paper Buckles
            >
            >
            >
            > No, chipboard as in book board -- a gray cardboard that comes in different thicknesses. Art-supply stores will have it.
            >
            > MH
            >
            > Chipboard, as in masonite?
            >
            > Kathryn
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: MH <bannerworks@...>
            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 8:22 PM
            > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Paper Buckles
            >
            > I usually use a pretty lightweight paper that buckles as soon as I touch it with the sponge. I use chipboard (thin book board) and follow this procedure: I put down a sheet of chipboard, then alum a sheet and place it on the board, alum side up. Then I alum another sheet and place it face down on the first. Then another sheet of chipboard goes over them both and the process is repeated. The chipboard is an inch or two larger than the paper on all sides. I'll usually do 20-26 sheets at once. I do this the evening before I intend to marble.
            >
            > I then take the stack and cover it with a rubber blanket (plastic sheeting would work, too). Then I put a thick plywood board on top of the lot and put heavy weights on top of that -- two or three sewing machines work well. I let them sit over night. When I'm ready to marble the next day, I take the weights, the board, and the rubber blanket off, and I'm ready to go. The paper is nice and dry and very flat. The chipboard absorbs the moisture from the paper and the rubber blanket prevents the edges drying first, which will cause the edges to shrink while the center does not, preventing the paper from lying flat on the size.
            >
            > I've used this method with three or four different kinds of paper and find that it works a treat.
            >
            > --Marc Horovitz
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • MH
            Iris s experience may be correct. I don t know, as I ve never kept alumed paper for any length of time. I only prepare enough paper for the next day s
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 15, 2012
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              Iris's experience may be correct. I don't know, as I've never kept alumed paper for any length of time. I only prepare enough paper for the next day's marbling, so they are only between the boards overnight.

              MH


              On Feb 15, 2012, at 10:57 AM, irisnevins wrote:

              > In my experience this absorbs the alum if kept very long. This may not be true with all papers, but the ones I have used. As in, this works for me if I marble them damp. I couldn't keep them three weeks this way and have them still work. I would use one blotter board at the bottom and another on top of the stack. We all work differently. I do know my method of dual hanging to bone dry works now for 34 year. Some paper will buckle more than others but it also depends on how wet you make the paper. I have not buckling issues, some curling ones, but that's wet paper for you. It's why I prefer to marble a dry flat sheet.
              > Iris Nevins
              > www.marblingpaper.com
              >
              > On 02/15/12, kathryn fanelli<kathrynfanelli@...> wrote:
              >
              > MH
              > Are you layering a sheet of chipboard between every � 2 pieces of alumed paper? Or are you layering the papers with the chipboard on the bottom & top only of the stack.�
              > �
              > Kathryn
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: MH <bannerworks@...>
              > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:06 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Paper Buckles
              >
              >
              > �
              > No, chipboard as in book board -- a gray cardboard that comes in different thicknesses. Art-supply stores will have it.
              >
              > MH
              >
              > Chipboard, as in masonite?
              >
              > Kathryn
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: MH <bannerworks@...>
              > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 8:22 PM
              > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Paper Buckles
              >
              > I usually use a pretty lightweight paper that buckles as soon as I touch it with the sponge. I use chipboard (thin book board) and follow this procedure: I put down a sheet of chipboard, then alum a sheet and place it on the board, alum side up. Then I alum another sheet and place it face down on the first. Then another sheet of chipboard goes over them both and the process is repeated. The chipboard is an inch or two larger than the paper on all sides. I'll usually do 20-26 sheets at once. I do this the evening before I intend to marble.
              >
              > I then take the stack and cover it with a rubber blanket (plastic sheeting would work, too). Then I put a thick plywood board on top of the lot and put heavy weights on top of that -- two or three sewing machines work well. I let them sit over night. When I'm ready to marble the next day, I take the weights, the board, and the rubber blanket off, and I'm ready to go. The paper is nice and dry and very flat. The chipboard absorbs the moisture from the paper and the rubber blanket prevents the edges drying first, which will cause the edges to shrink while the center does not, preventing the paper from lying flat on the size.
              >
              > I've used this method with three or four different kinds of paper and find that it works a treat.
              >
              > --Marc Horovitz
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Barb
              Kathryn - I think you are on to something here and it was exactly what I thought when you first posted the question a few weeks ago. I live in Southern
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 15, 2012
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                Kathryn - I think you are on to something here and it was exactly what I thought when you first posted the question a few weeks ago. I live in Southern California and I too have buckling problems with all but one type of paper: Arches Text Wove 120 gsm (19.5 x 25.5).

                The reason I think it has to do with a dry environment is that I was introduced to Galen Berry's Texoprint in a class I took from Pat K. Thomas last year. I loved it in the studio in North Carolina. Bought some and used it here in Los Angeles and found that it wrinkles on both short sides (which it didn't do in NC). The only thing I could think of was 1) different batch of paper or 2) it was drying too quickly.

                I have the same process as Marc where I place individual sheets between Davey Board after they are alummed. I use my sheets within three days and don't store them like Iris does. After I have marbled on them and they have dried, I put them under the Davey Boards again for upwards of 5 to 7 days. That usually relaxes most papers enough to make them presentable. (My Davey Boards weigh a ton...or so says my back.). I generally don't experience problems marbling the buckled papers as I roll them around a large tube right before I lay them down (seems to make them a little more malleable).

                It's raining here today (a rare event) so I'll go out and alum a few sheets to see if the higher-than-normal humidity will make a difference on that Textoprint.

                I'd be happy to send you a few samples of the Arches if you want to test them out in your neck of the woods. Incidentally, the Arches is the paper I use for work I intend to frame or show to art galleries. It has a museum-like, warm, soft-cream quality to it that I find so beautiful. I don't generally use it for bookbinding, though it could very well be used for that.

                Cheers,
                Barb

                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, kathryn fanelli <kathrynfanelli@...> wrote:
                >
                > Would a space that is extremely dry cause buckling perhaps? Drying too fast maybe.
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 8:31 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Paper Buckles
                >
                >
                >  
                > My system.... I am not sure how the larger sheets will act, I only use the 19 X 25.TALAS paper 80 pound. I lay out two boards to fit them side by side. I alum one, then the other. If there are puddles (I use a lager than dish sponge, not quite as big as a car wash one, that should work though) I swipe the side of the sponge across the sheet to pick them up. I then lift the sheets up and hang them back to back, alum sides out ward, from clothespins on a nylon line. I totally dry them overnight, the room must be 55% or less humidity, and remain so if you store dry papers. When dry they go under boards. Several days at least. They are nice, dry, flat. I can store them alumed literally for years this way if the humidity remains low. The back to back double hanging system helps prevent curls and buckles. Make sure you don't alum dripping wet, medium damp helps. The sponge should glide easily but not be drippy.
                > IrisNevins
                > www.marblingpaper.com
                >
                > On 02/14/12, kathryn fanelli<kathrynfanelli@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Iris,
                >
                > My Talens papers came in today and I got to try them out. I'm still getting some buckling from the alum application. Using a regular sink size sponge squeezed out it leaves buckles in the shape of the sponge going across the paper, even after it's dried. I'm using the 32" x 40" paper and 11" x 8.5" . I left it weighted for about a half hour on some boards but I don't think it was long enough. Is there some secret to alumming papers and getting that super flatness that sits right on the water surface ? My prints show bubbles and skews as the result of bumpy paper,so frustrating.
                > Also, whats the best way to dry the larger sheets? Hanging them causes bumps, hanging over clothesline creates a strong crease in the center...ironing perhaps??
                >
                > Kathryn Fanelli
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • fritzmiklaf@bezeqint.net
                How you keep your papers depends a lot on whether you want them bone dry or with a bit of moisture. I prefer the latter since I find that it helps them go down
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 16, 2012
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                  How you keep your papers depends a lot on whether you want them bone dry or
                  with a bit of moisture. I prefer the latter since I find that it helps them
                  go down smoothly. Someday I want to visit one of you who uses dry papers and
                  see how it's done. For me it seems to get creases and pick up air bubbles.

                  I have several sheets of plywood with a layer of binders board on either
                  side. I gave them a light coat of varnish years ago so they don't take all
                  the moisture out of the paper but leave just enough. I stack the sheets alum
                  side to alum side but I put 8 or 10 sheets between each sheet of plywood. I
                  used to put some weights on the top but now I have a press big enough so I
                  leave them in it overnight.

                  When I gave a workshop recently we used sheets of binders board only, and
                  that worked fine.



                  Yehuda Miklaf

                  Jerusalem

                  <mailto:fritzmiklaf@...> fritzmiklaf@...

                  <http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/> www.yehudamiklaf.com





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • irisnevins
                  There have been times I have to alum damp. Like when I run out of paper or need to marble in a hurry. I stull use my back to back hanging method, do one row of
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 16, 2012
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                    There have been times I have to alum damp. Like when I run out of paper or need to marble in a hurry. I stull use my back to back hanging method, do one row of eight sets, then another. By the time the 2nd row is done I lay down the first row, replace the first row, then lay down the 2nd. etc. I have a binders board at top and bottom. I lay them down back to back as well, but take the bottom sheet and move it to the top so there is a back of a sheet facing each binder board. No buckle, but some will, depends on the papers. I avoid bucklers. I have some with Ingres (old stock that used to marble) and those raggy feeling papers. With the smooth wove papers, generally never an issue. You just can't lay them down wet without risking buckling, I at least semi dry. I imagine in your climate you might want to make shorter rows if you do this, Yehuda! On the line too long you may get curling at the bottom. I find the back to back counteracts that to a great degree though. You could also put clothespins at the bottom corners to stop that. I don't bother, I am too lazy a marbler, always looking for the easiest fastest way!
                    IrisNevins
                    www.marblingppaper.come



                    On 02/16/12, fritzmiklaf@... wrote:

                    How you keep your papers depends a lot on whether you want them bone dry or
                    with a bit of moisture. I prefer the latter since I find that it helps them
                    go down smoothly. Someday I want to visit one of you who uses dry papers and
                    see how it's done. For me it seems to get creases and pick up air bubbles.

                    I have several sheets of plywood with a layer of binders board on either
                    side. I gave them a light coat of varnish years ago so they don't take all
                    the moisture out of the paper but leave just enough. I stack the sheets alum
                    side to alum side but I put 8 or 10 sheets between each sheet of plywood. I
                    used to put some weights on the top but now I have a press big enough so I
                    leave them in it overnight.

                    When I gave a workshop recently we used sheets of binders board only, and
                    that worked fine.



                    Yehuda Miklaf

                    Jerusalem

                    <mailto:fritzmiklaf@...> fritzmiklaf@...

                    <http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/> www.yehudamiklaf.com





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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