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Re: [Marbling] questions for Iris and John

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  • irisnevins
    Hi Sue.... in marbling, using denser paint does not necessarily give brighter or deeper color. It s hard for people to wrap their brains around that seemingly
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 9, 2011
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      Hi Sue.... in marbling, using denser paint does not necessarily give brighter or deeper color. It's hard for people to wrap their brains around that seemingly contrary fact. For those who are obsessive enough to get into the depths of making marbling paint (I am one totally obsessive person, been trying to get it perfectly for over 30 years, but there is no perfect in marbling), many of the difficulties lie in the fact that different pigments weigh more or less than others. Pigment is not a thing that is a certain substance that comes in different colors. So a Cadmium red is heavier than an earth color like red ochre, and lamp black, made from soot tends to be lighter weight, or specific gravity, than the earth colors. Each pigment when made into paint, gets a slightly different treatment. There is no "one generic formula".

      So when someone says they have a cad red sinking, since it is heavy, I suggest adding a little water. If the amount of gall is not excessive to begin with, this often fixes it. You may not want to use it as a final color, but let it be an earlier color down, and the others will squeeze it down and make it just right. Piling more and more on or making it thicker, only makes the droplets heavier than the size, so it starts to go down. Marbling is just a balancing act. Some hate this, and quit, others are stubborn and fight it, and try everything, and those are the ones who keep marbling. This aspect of marbling also never leaves you, it always presents a challenge and problem nearly every time you marble. I have yet to meet one marbler, even professionals, who have it down to a predictable art that works the same every day.

      Some find my colors thin, and if they are used to working with a thick paint, they will seem so, yet my papers are very deep. So deep, I have been accused of using something other than what I sell. I use what I sell, all the time. This also insures that if someone has a problem I can offer technical advice easily. When I used gouache way back, in the 70s, I thinned it to this consistency. I get brightness and depth by layering the colors. If you use just enough, where it will be bright, deep, and stop there, you rarely will need to rinse papers using my paints, most of the old manuals never mention rinsing, so I set out to figure out why and how. I let the size run off into a tub beneath the lines. It also adds a little coating, which prevents "rubbing" or smearing of the dry paints. I know some archivists will have issue with this, but it has caused no ill effects or acidity in papers, even ones done nearly 34 years ago. They look as good as new, no dulling of the paper over a rinsed paper either. These paper stocks were not even "acid free" back then. Close, but not quite. No rot, no decay. Papers sitting in sunny windows too, some for decades, no change.

      I enjoyed doing the videos and will add more. It would help to have someone hold the camera, and I need to go where the lightbulb doesn't reflect! It was casually done, but I hope the views were helpful. If you go to my youtube channel you can view one of my other obsessions, and just as I had to learn to make paint, I also build most of my own harps and guitars. Anyway, maybe I can figure out to have some Irish harp music running in the marbling videos. No time to make film editing another obsession though!

      Iris Nevins
      marblingpaper.com



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
      To: marbling<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 7:19 PM
      Subject: [Marbling] questions for Iris and John


      Iris - I just watched your videos - they were great! I wish you would put
      more up. I will see if I can get some Potash here and try it. You seem to
      mix your paints thiner than I do mine, so I will try that, although mine
      work alright most of the time, I do have problems with several of them
      sinking. I have been pulling the paper off the side of the tank the way
      they do in Ebru and that works pretty well for getting the excess size and
      paint off them. I had ordered quite a bit of the Dick Blick Sketch paper
      when you recommended and have been using that with good success. I haven't
      ordered their newer stuff yet, but probably won't since you said you had
      problems with it.

      Your links repeated twice because you used reply - everything gets copied
      again when you do that.

      John, are you using paper or cloth napkins? Do you mean like dinner paper
      napkins - the smoother kind. A picture or brand would be helpful. I
      usually use newspaper or sometimes a stick like Galen Berry uses to clean
      my tank after marbling.
      Thanks for any help,
      Sue Cole


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • irisnevins
      PS....Sue... the Blick paper has gone buffered. As I mention in the videos, I use the TALAS unbuffered bond. A lot pricier, but it works! For casual playing,
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 9, 2011
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        PS....Sue... the Blick paper has gone buffered. As I mention in the videos, I use the TALAS unbuffered bond. A lot pricier, but it works! For casual playing, get a high quality inkjet paper. Someone mentioned Office Max is good. Just get the best, it's maybe $12 for 500 sheets. You have to figure out the coated side. One time will tell you which way is up in the pack. AND...you should need NO ALUM!!! JOY!!
        Iris Nevins
        marblingpaper.com
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
        To: marbling<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 7:19 PM
        Subject: [Marbling] questions for Iris and John


        Iris - I just watched your videos - they were great! I wish you would put
        more up. I will see if I can get some Potash here and try it. You seem to
        mix your paints thiner than I do mine, so I will try that, although mine
        work alright most of the time, I do have problems with several of them
        sinking. I have been pulling the paper off the side of the tank the way
        they do in Ebru and that works pretty well for getting the excess size and
        paint off them. I had ordered quite a bit of the Dick Blick Sketch paper
        when you recommended and have been using that with good success. I haven't
        ordered their newer stuff yet, but probably won't since you said you had
        problems with it.

        Your links repeated twice because you used reply - everything gets copied
        again when you do that.

        John, are you using paper or cloth napkins? Do you mean like dinner paper
        napkins - the smoother kind. A picture or brand would be helpful. I
        usually use newspaper or sometimes a stick like Galen Berry uses to clean
        my tank after marbling.
        Thanks for any help,
        Sue Cole


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kathryn Fanelli
        Iris, The talas bond you mentioned is an 80lb paper. I find this weight wrinkles w/acrylics. How are you Able to get a flat/smooth surface? I am using heavy
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 13, 2011
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          Iris,
          The talas bond you mentioned is an 80lb paper.
          I find this weight wrinkles w/acrylics. How are you
          Able to get a flat/smooth surface?
          I am using heavy weight watercolor paper. These
          Are more like prints/paintings vs. Lightweight
          Bookend paper.
          Thanks.
          Kathryn

          Sent from my iPhone

          On Dec 9, 2011, at 7:56 PM, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:

          > Hi Sue.... in marbling, using denser paint does not necessarily give brighter or deeper color. It's hard for people to wrap their brains around that seemingly contrary fact. For those who are obsessive enough to get into the depths of making marbling paint (I am one totally obsessive person, been trying to get it perfectly for over 30 years, but there is no perfect in marbling), many of the difficulties lie in the fact that different pigments weigh more or less than others. Pigment is not a thing that is a certain substance that comes in different colors. So a Cadmium red is heavier than an earth color like red ochre, and lamp black, made from soot tends to be lighter weight, or specific gravity, than the earth colors. Each pigment when made into paint, gets a slightly different treatment. There is no "one generic formula".
          >
          > So when someone says they have a cad red sinking, since it is heavy, I suggest adding a little water. If the amount of gall is not excessive to begin with, this often fixes it. You may not want to use it as a final color, but let it be an earlier color down, and the others will squeeze it down and make it just right. Piling more and more on or making it thicker, only makes the droplets heavier than the size, so it starts to go down. Marbling is just a balancing act. Some hate this, and quit, others are stubborn and fight it, and try everything, and those are the ones who keep marbling. This aspect of marbling also never leaves you, it always presents a challenge and problem nearly every time you marble. I have yet to meet one marbler, even professionals, who have it down to a predictable art that works the same every day.
          >
          > Some find my colors thin, and if they are used to working with a thick paint, they will seem so, yet my papers are very deep. So deep, I have been accused of using something other than what I sell. I use what I sell, all the time. This also insures that if someone has a problem I can offer technical advice easily. When I used gouache way back, in the 70s, I thinned it to this consistency. I get brightness and depth by layering the colors. If you use just enough, where it will be bright, deep, and stop there, you rarely will need to rinse papers using my paints, most of the old manuals never mention rinsing, so I set out to figure out why and how. I let the size run off into a tub beneath the lines. It also adds a little coating, which prevents "rubbing" or smearing of the dry paints. I know some archivists will have issue with this, but it has caused no ill effects or acidity in papers, even ones done nearly 34 years ago. They look as good as new, no dulling of the paper over a rinsed paper either. These paper stocks were not even "acid free" back then. Close, but not quite. No rot, no decay. Papers sitting in sunny windows too, some for decades, no change.
          >
          > I enjoyed doing the videos and will add more. It would help to have someone hold the camera, and I need to go where the lightbulb doesn't reflect! It was casually done, but I hope the views were helpful. If you go to my youtube channel you can view one of my other obsessions, and just as I had to learn to make paint, I also build most of my own harps and guitars. Anyway, maybe I can figure out to have some Irish harp music running in the marbling videos. No time to make film editing another obsession though!
          >
          > Iris Nevins
          > marblingpaper.com
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
          > To: marbling<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 7:19 PM
          > Subject: [Marbling] questions for Iris and John
          >
          > Iris - I just watched your videos - they were great! I wish you would put
          > more up. I will see if I can get some Potash here and try it. You seem to
          > mix your paints thiner than I do mine, so I will try that, although mine
          > work alright most of the time, I do have problems with several of them
          > sinking. I have been pulling the paper off the side of the tank the way
          > they do in Ebru and that works pretty well for getting the excess size and
          > paint off them. I had ordered quite a bit of the Dick Blick Sketch paper
          > when you recommended and have been using that with good success. I haven't
          > ordered their newer stuff yet, but probably won't since you said you had
          > problems with it.
          >
          > Your links repeated twice because you used reply - everything gets copied
          > again when you do that.
          >
          > John, are you using paper or cloth napkins? Do you mean like dinner paper
          > napkins - the smoother kind. A picture or brand would be helpful. I
          > usually use newspaper or sometimes a stick like Galen Berry uses to clean
          > my tank after marbling.
          > Thanks for any help,
          > Sue Cole
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • irisnevins
          Really???? And I wish they d make it in 70 pound! Go figure. I have used 70 lb. with no wrinkles with acrylics. When does it wrinkle...when you marble it or
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 13, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Really???? And I wish they'd make it in 70 pound! Go figure. I have used 70 lb. with no wrinkles with acrylics. When does it wrinkle...when you marble it or let me guess, you alum and put under boards wet and it wrinkles there? If so try semi drying on a line even for 10 minutes, then go under the boards damp, not wet, never wet or with visible puddles.
            Iris Nevins
            marblingpaper.com
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Kathryn Fanelli<mailto:kathrynfanelli@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:28 AM
            Subject: Re: [Marbling] questions for Iris and John


            Iris,
            The talas bond you mentioned is an 80lb paper.
            I find this weight wrinkles w/acrylics. How are you
            Able to get a flat/smooth surface?
            I am using heavy weight watercolor paper. These
            Are more like prints/paintings vs. Lightweight
            Bookend paper.
            Thanks.
            Kathryn

            Sent from my iPhone

            On Dec 9, 2011, at 7:56 PM, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>> wrote:

            > Hi Sue.... in marbling, using denser paint does not necessarily give brighter or deeper color. It's hard for people to wrap their brains around that seemingly contrary fact. For those who are obsessive enough to get into the depths of making marbling paint (I am one totally obsessive person, been trying to get it perfectly for over 30 years, but there is no perfect in marbling), many of the difficulties lie in the fact that different pigments weigh more or less than others. Pigment is not a thing that is a certain substance that comes in different colors. So a Cadmium red is heavier than an earth color like red ochre, and lamp black, made from soot tends to be lighter weight, or specific gravity, than the earth colors. Each pigment when made into paint, gets a slightly different treatment. There is no "one generic formula".
            >
            > So when someone says they have a cad red sinking, since it is heavy, I suggest adding a little water. If the amount of gall is not excessive to begin with, this often fixes it. You may not want to use it as a final color, but let it be an earlier color down, and the others will squeeze it down and make it just right. Piling more and more on or making it thicker, only makes the droplets heavier than the size, so it starts to go down. Marbling is just a balancing act. Some hate this, and quit, others are stubborn and fight it, and try everything, and those are the ones who keep marbling. This aspect of marbling also never leaves you, it always presents a challenge and problem nearly every time you marble. I have yet to meet one marbler, even professionals, who have it down to a predictable art that works the same every day.
            >
            > Some find my colors thin, and if they are used to working with a thick paint, they will seem so, yet my papers are very deep. So deep, I have been accused of using something other than what I sell. I use what I sell, all the time. This also insures that if someone has a problem I can offer technical advice easily. When I used gouache way back, in the 70s, I thinned it to this consistency. I get brightness and depth by layering the colors. If you use just enough, where it will be bright, deep, and stop there, you rarely will need to rinse papers using my paints, most of the old manuals never mention rinsing, so I set out to figure out why and how. I let the size run off into a tub beneath the lines. It also adds a little coating, which prevents "rubbing" or smearing of the dry paints. I know some archivists will have issue with this, but it has caused no ill effects or acidity in papers, even ones done nearly 34 years ago. They look as good as new, no dulling of the paper over a
            rinsed paper either. These paper stocks were not even "acid free" back then. Close, but not quite. No rot, no decay. Papers sitting in sunny windows too, some for decades, no change.
            >
            > I enjoyed doing the videos and will add more. It would help to have someone hold the camera, and I need to go where the lightbulb doesn't reflect! It was casually done, but I hope the views were helpful. If you go to my youtube channel you can view one of my other obsessions, and just as I had to learn to make paint, I also build most of my own harps and guitars. Anyway, maybe I can figure out to have some Irish harp music running in the marbling videos. No time to make film editing another obsession though!
            >
            > Iris Nevins
            > marblingpaper.com
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...<mailto:akartisan@...>>
            > To: marbling<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
            > Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 7:19 PM
            > Subject: [Marbling] questions for Iris and John
            >
            > Iris - I just watched your videos - they were great! I wish you would put
            > more up. I will see if I can get some Potash here and try it. You seem to
            > mix your paints thiner than I do mine, so I will try that, although mine
            > work alright most of the time, I do have problems with several of them
            > sinking. I have been pulling the paper off the side of the tank the way
            > they do in Ebru and that works pretty well for getting the excess size and
            > paint off them. I had ordered quite a bit of the Dick Blick Sketch paper
            > when you recommended and have been using that with good success. I haven't
            > ordered their newer stuff yet, but probably won't since you said you had
            > problems with it.
            >
            > Your links repeated twice because you used reply - everything gets copied
            > again when you do that.
            >
            > John, are you using paper or cloth napkins? Do you mean like dinner paper
            > napkins - the smoother kind. A picture or brand would be helpful. I
            > usually use newspaper or sometimes a stick like Galen Berry uses to clean
            > my tank after marbling.
            > Thanks for any help,
            > Sue Cole
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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