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Re: Your Message to Marbling

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  • Karen Dorrough
    Wood warps for the same reason paper cockles. The cells of the wood absorb water and expand, and just like paper they expand more in the width (across the
    Message 1 of 4 , Dec 6, 2011
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      Wood warps for the same reason paper cockles. The cells of the wood
      absorb water and expand, and just like paper they expand more in the
      width (across the width of the tree) than in the length. When the
      cells expand, the cell structure becomes crushed, so when the wood
      dries out it doesn't go back to flat. There isn't any way to prevent
      this. Any kind of wood will expand in water, although harder, oilier
      woods will have less of a problem. There are two ways you might try to
      deal with this. One is to varnish the wood before you marble it. There
      are lots of different types of coatings - shellac, varnish, danish oil
      - you'd have to experiment to find if one gives you a look you like.
      Be sure to varnish all 4 sides of the board so it won't absorb
      moisture from the air and warp later. Another option is to use
      plywood. Plywood is made of many layers of wood glued together with
      the grain running at right angles on each layer, so the expansion and
      contraction forces balance one another and the wood will remain fairly
      flat. I guess you might also try marbling the wood, letting it warp,
      then treating the back side of it the same way to see if you can make
      it warp back to flatten out. Good luck - I'm sure there is a way to do
      this and it will just take some experimentation to figure it out.
    • dorroughk@gmail.com
      ... Actually, there is such a thing as oil-based ink. Also called printer s ink: Speedball is a common brand. They are oil soluble, meaning you would need to
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 5, 2012
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        >
        > as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to
        > make sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or
        > confusion will be even bigger as it is now): there is no such thing
        > as oil inks. Either it's oil, or it's inks. Inks are aquaeous. So
        > it's oil paints, or either inks. Precision is very helpful.
        >
        > German differentiates even further: Tinte (without a binder, ink)
        > and Tusche (with a binder, Indian ink).
        >

        Actually, there is such a thing as oil-based ink. Also called
        printer's ink: Speedball is a common brand. They are oil soluble,
        meaning you would need to dilute them in some kind of petroleum
        solvent such as white spirit or naptha. If you find a local offset
        printer going out of business - many of these shops are closing or
        consolidating - you can find big cans of these for cheap. Or you can
        buy them in smaller amounts from an art supply store. There are soy-
        based versions as well, probably less toxic to the marbler. I've never
        used either, because I just lurk here thinking of doing marbling
        someday for the books I bind. Sigh.

        If you think of it, if all inks were water based a newspaper would run
        in the rain, and they don't. Most, if not all, commercial printing is
        probably done with oil based ink. Regardless of the terminology, there
        are just a couple of ways to get color onto anything. There are dyes,
        which are basically colored chemicals, which penetrate into an
        absorbent substrate whether it's wood, fabric, paper or something
        else. Then there are pigment colors, which are finely ground particles
        of something colored, like lamp black or lapis lazuli, suspended in
        some kind of liquid. The liquid serves to make the color spread and
        acts as a binder, to stick the particles to the material being
        colored. So binders are some kind of glue, in essence: a liquid
        adhesive or a shellac/varnish. Paint is color suspended in a thicker,
        more opaque binder so the particles can be more coarse, whereas stains
        or inks would need smaller particles for more even color.

        Paint, stain, oil paint, ink, watercolor - it's all the same
        technology - perhaps the terms evolved from once-separate trades and
        crafts and languages - just using different materials to suit the
        medium. For example, watercolors need to be in an aqueous binder,
        obviously, and that binder needs to be water soluble itself so that
        the color can be further manipulated after it's on the paper. Acrylic
        paints are pigment or dye suspended in a water-soluble polymer, so
        they can be diluted and cleaned up with water, but once the binder has
        dried it polymerizes or cures into a plastic film that is no longer
        water soluble. Dyes can be dissolved in either water or oil solvent,
        depending on the chemical. Dyes usually have no binder but simply
        penetrate into the material, so they might need to be sealed after
        application so they don't leach out onto your hands/laundry. A wood
        dye stain, for example, dries almost instantly on the wood as the
        solvent evaporates, and then you can either add more stain for a
        deeper color or remove some color by wiping with a clean rag soaked in
        solvent. You couldn't do this with a pigment, because the particles
        would sit on the surface of the wood where they could be brushed off
        mechanically. Dye penetrates into the absorbent wood. Then it must be
        sealed onto the wood under shellac or varnish to keep the color on.

        Hmm ... so maybe a fabric could be marbled with a dye stain, then
        placed on an absorbent backing and sprinkled with more solvent to
        selectively lighten or remove color? Does anyone do this?

        K
      • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
        dorroughk, you re right about oil in printer s ink. I have stumbled into a liguistic trap when writing my message. While in German your computer s printer
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 5, 2012
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          dorroughk,

          you're right about oil in printer's ink. I have stumbled into a liguistic trap when writing my message. While in German your computer's printer works with Tinte/ink (which from obvious reasons is without oils), a printing machine – whether hand driven or power driven – is fed (oily) Druckfarbe/printing paint by the printer. Basic carelessness on my side, sorry.

          As to your question:

          >
          > Hmm ... so maybe a fabric could be marbled with a dye stain, then
          > placed on an absorbent backing and sprinkled with more solvent to
          > selectively lighten or remove color? Does anyone do this?

          I'm using this principle on paper, looks good provided you're working at lightning speed.

          Susanne Krause
        • carylhanc@aol.com
          so maybe a fabric could be marbled with a dye stain, then placed on an absorbent backing and sprinkled with more solvent to selectively lighten or remove
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 5, 2012
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            so maybe a fabric could be marbled with a dye stain, then
            placed on an absorbent backing and sprinkled with more solvent to
            selectively lighten or remove color? Does anyone do this?

            What an exciting question! As both a marbler and a dyer I have often wanted to combine those techniques. And suffice to say, there are several on-line lists where those questions could be posed:dyerslist-request@..., for one, and complexcloth@yahoogroups.com for another.


            One of the issues I have experienced is that many dyes for fabrics, either those activated with soda ash or an acid (vinegar or citric acid), dissolve in water, and so, dissolve in the substrate of either methylcellulose or carageenan. The oil based products (a pigment, and not a dye) will float and so can be used to marble. There are also chemicals that can be applied to the dyed material to remove the color - thiourea dioxide for one, or bleach for another; each has their strengths and cautions as far as effect on the fabric and the dyes used, and can be done selectively. I personally am not familiar with a dye that can be dissolved in a petroleum solvent.


            I know there are other dyers on this list who may have a more in-depth response than I.


            I hope they respond!
            Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis






            -----Original Message-----
            From: dorroughk <dorroughk@...>
            To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sun, Aug 5, 2012 9:38 am
            Subject: [Marbling] Re: Your Message to Marbling







            >
            > as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to
            > make sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or
            > confusion will be even bigger as it is now): there is no such thing
            > as oil inks. Either it's oil, or it's inks. Inks are aquaeous. So
            > it's oil paints, or either inks. Precision is very helpful.
            >
            > German differentiates even further: Tinte (without a binder, ink)
            > and Tusche (with a binder, Indian ink).
            >

            Actually, there is such a thing as oil-based ink. Also called
            printer's ink: Speedball is a common brand. They are oil soluble,
            meaning you would need to dilute them in some kind of petroleum
            solvent such as white spirit or naptha. If you find a local offset
            printer going out of business - many of these shops are closing or
            consolidating - you can find big cans of these for cheap. Or you can
            buy them in smaller amounts from an art supply store. There are soy-
            based versions as well, probably less toxic to the marbler. I've never
            used either, because I just lurk here thinking of doing marbling
            someday for the books I bind. Sigh.

            If you think of it, if all inks were water based a newspaper would run
            in the rain, and they don't. Most, if not all, commercial printing is
            probably done with oil based ink. Regardless of the terminology, there
            are just a couple of ways to get color onto anything. There are dyes,
            which are basically colored chemicals, which penetrate into an
            absorbent substrate whether it's wood, fabric, paper or something
            else. Then there are pigment colors, which are finely ground particles
            of something colored, like lamp black or lapis lazuli, suspended in
            some kind of liquid. The liquid serves to make the color spread and
            acts as a binder, to stick the particles to the material being
            colored. So binders are some kind of glue, in essence: a liquid
            adhesive or a shellac/varnish. Paint is color suspended in a thicker,
            more opaque binder so the particles can be more coarse, whereas stains
            or inks would need smaller particles for more even color.

            Paint, stain, oil paint, ink, watercolor - it's all the same
            technology - perhaps the terms evolved from once-separate trades and
            crafts and languages - just using different materials to suit the
            medium. For example, watercolors need to be in an aqueous binder,
            obviously, and that binder needs to be water soluble itself so that
            the color can be further manipulated after it's on the paper. Acrylic
            paints are pigment or dye suspended in a water-soluble polymer, so
            they can be diluted and cleaned up with water, but once the binder has
            dried it polymerizes or cures into a plastic film that is no longer
            water soluble. Dyes can be dissolved in either water or oil solvent,
            depending on the chemical. Dyes usually have no binder but simply
            penetrate into the material, so they might need to be sealed after
            application so they don't leach out onto your hands/laundry. A wood
            dye stain, for example, dries almost instantly on the wood as the
            solvent evaporates, and then you can either add more stain for a
            deeper color or remove some color by wiping with a clean rag soaked in
            solvent. You couldn't do this with a pigment, because the particles
            would sit on the surface of the wood where they could be brushed off
            mechanically. Dye penetrates into the absorbent wood. Then it must be
            sealed onto the wood under shellac or varnish to keep the color on.

            Hmm ... so maybe a fabric could be marbled with a dye stain, then
            placed on an absorbent backing and sprinkled with more solvent to
            selectively lighten or remove color? Does anyone do this?

            K











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