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Re: [Marbling] Re:paper problems

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  • irisnevins
    These papers are generally not available in stores, you need to send for them via mail order. TALAS will sell small amounts. Some suppliers sell small amounts
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 1, 2011
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      These papers are generally not available in stores, you need to send for them via mail order. TALAS will sell small amounts. Some suppliers sell small amounts (as in under 100-500) of the Hahnemuele papers. Canson used to work, so I hear it is iffy now.

      Interested with the paper treatments. It would drive me mad. When I marble too, I tend to do a huge amount over a long day. To fit all that in would take too much time, but interesting to read!
      Iris Nevins
      marblingpaper.com

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Robyn Drew<mailto:robyn.drew27@...>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:03 AM
      Subject: [Marbling] Re:paper problems



      Thanks, Iris. I don't think the papers you mentioned are available from here, but I'll ask at a local supplier. I have used Neenah columns successfully (without soda water), which is made by the company that I think make your Classic Linen.

      The first time I tried the soda water treatment, I had already tried marbling the same paper on the same day, but without the soda water treatment. That was how I chose the paper that didn't work. The same type of paper then did work, an hour or so later (it was a hot day), after I had treated it with soda water, dried it, alumed it, and dried it again (yes, it was annoying doing another step or two, and would have been even more annoying if it had been Winter!). The only difference between that day, and one more recently (apart from the time of year, weather, ...) was that I used isocol (isopropyl alcohol) in the paints the first time, but 95% alcohol more recently. During the second session, I did all the soda water treatment, etc on the papers first (because I thought the papers wouldn't work otherwise...), and all worked. At the last minute, I thought I should just check a paper that had only alum on it, but on that day, it worked too! I will try
      things again soon. Perhaps I should try paints with isocol and paints with 95% alcohol on the same day, with paper that has been alumed and with paper that has the soda water, etc treatment!

      Regards
      Robyn

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • carylhanc@aol.com
      The first time I tried the soda water treatment, I had already tried marbling the same paper on the same day, but without the soda water treatment. HI, All,
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 1, 2011
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        The first time I tried the soda water treatment, I had already tried marbling the same paper on the same day, but without the soda water treatment.
        HI, All,


        This is new information for me - the "soda water" treatment. As a fabric dyer, I use a soda ash solution (sodium carbonate) to fix fiber reactive dyes to fabric, but this sounds different. Does it replace aluming? Could a list member please elaborate on this "soda water" process?
        Thanks in advance!
        Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis, Indiana




        -----Original Message-----
        From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
        To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thu, Dec 1, 2011 3:37 am
        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re:paper problems





        These papers are generally not available in stores, you need to send for them via mail order. TALAS will sell small amounts. Some suppliers sell small amounts (as in under 100-500) of the Hahnemuele papers. Canson used to work, so I hear it is iffy now.

        Interested with the paper treatments. It would drive me mad. When I marble too, I tend to do a huge amount over a long day. To fit all that in would take too much time, but interesting to read!
        Iris Nevins
        marblingpaper.com

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Robyn Drew<mailto:robyn.drew27@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:03 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] Re:paper problems

        Thanks, Iris. I don't think the papers you mentioned are available from here, but I'll ask at a local supplier. I have used Neenah columns successfully (without soda water), which is made by the company that I think make your Classic Linen.

        The first time I tried the soda water treatment, I had already tried marbling the same paper on the same day, but without the soda water treatment. That was how I chose the paper that didn't work. The same type of paper then did work, an hour or so later (it was a hot day), after I had treated it with soda water, dried it, alumed it, and dried it again (yes, it was annoying doing another step or two, and would have been even more annoying if it had been Winter!). The only difference between that day, and one more recently (apart from the time of year, weather, ...) was that I used isocol (isopropyl alcohol) in the paints the first time, but 95% alcohol more recently. During the second session, I did all the soda water treatment, etc on the papers first (because I thought the papers wouldn't work otherwise...), and all worked. At the last minute, I thought I should just check a paper that had only alum on it, but on that day, it worked too! I will try
        things again soon. Perhaps I should try paints with isocol and paints with 95% alcohol on the same day, with paper that has been alumed and with paper that has the soda water, etc treatment!

        Regards
        Robyn

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • irisnevins
        Yes... that would be nice, and if it would work on the useless papers. I have to say, before anyone gets to useless experimenting and failure, going on the
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 1, 2011
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          Yes... that would be nice, and if it would work on the useless papers. I have to say, before anyone gets to useless experimenting and failure, going on the theory that inkjet paper works without alum, I found somewhere a recipe to make bubblejet coating, which I think is the same as inkjet. It's done with fabric softener and I forget what else. Even dried on the paper, it made a mess of the size.

          I was seriously considering learning serious papermaking, converting a small barn into a paper mill, buying a Hollander beater and creating the ideal marbling paper. Even if just for my own use. The sheets would be pretty pricey, and there is a steep learning curve, and I really haven't the time. Luckily I found the TALAS paper and am very pleased. Wish I could find something cheaper like good old fasioned paper we used to buy though. Those so called non-acid free papers, by the way. which were lignin free (pretty much anything after 1975 or so was and that is what really yellows or rots paper) were near neutral, but not one of my old papers from nearly 34 years back show any sign of rotting either themselves or the books they were used on. Believe me even if they rotted anything after all this time, they'd be letting me know. I also have many books I bound myself and there is no problem whatsoever.

          Iris Nevins
          marblingpaper.com

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: carylhanc@...<mailto:carylhanc@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 10:28 AM
          Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re:paper problems




          The first time I tried the soda water treatment, I had already tried marbling the same paper on the same day, but without the soda water treatment.
          HI, All,


          This is new information for me - the "soda water" treatment. As a fabric dyer, I use a soda ash solution (sodium carbonate) to fix fiber reactive dyes to fabric, but this sounds different. Does it replace aluming? Could a list member please elaborate on this "soda water" process?
          Thanks in advance!
          Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis, Indiana




          -----Original Message-----
          From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>
          To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
          Sent: Thu, Dec 1, 2011 3:37 am
          Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re:paper problems





          These papers are generally not available in stores, you need to send for them via mail order. TALAS will sell small amounts. Some suppliers sell small amounts (as in under 100-500) of the Hahnemuele papers. Canson used to work, so I hear it is iffy now.

          Interested with the paper treatments. It would drive me mad. When I marble too, I tend to do a huge amount over a long day. To fit all that in would take too much time, but interesting to read!
          Iris Nevins
          marblingpaper.com

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Robyn Drew<mailto:robyn.drew27@...<mailto:robyn.drew27@...>>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
          Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:03 AM
          Subject: [Marbling] Re:paper problems

          Thanks, Iris. I don't think the papers you mentioned are available from here, but I'll ask at a local supplier. I have used Neenah columns successfully (without soda water), which is made by the company that I think make your Classic Linen.

          The first time I tried the soda water treatment, I had already tried marbling the same paper on the same day, but without the soda water treatment. That was how I chose the paper that didn't work. The same type of paper then did work, an hour or so later (it was a hot day), after I had treated it with soda water, dried it, alumed it, and dried it again (yes, it was annoying doing another step or two, and would have been even more annoying if it had been Winter!). The only difference between that day, and one more recently (apart from the time of year, weather, ...) was that I used isocol (isopropyl alcohol) in the paints the first time, but 95% alcohol more recently. During the second session, I did all the soda water treatment, etc on the papers first (because I thought the papers wouldn't work otherwise...), and all worked. At the last minute, I thought I should just check a paper that had only alum on it, but on that day, it worked too! I will try
          things again soon. Perhaps I should try paints with isocol and paints with 95% alcohol on the same day, with paper that has been alumed and with paper that has the soda water, etc treatment!

          Regards
          Robyn

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Robyn Drew
          Hi Caryl, No, the soda water treatment didn t replace alum. I buy soda water at the supermarket (in Australia). Perhaps it is called something else in other
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 2, 2011
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            Hi Caryl,

            No, the soda water treatment didn't replace alum. I buy soda water at the supermarket (in Australia). Perhaps it is called something else in other places? I soaked the paper in soda water (straight from the bottle, at room temp), dried it, then alumed, then dried, then marbled on the same day.

            Why did I think of doing this? When I first tried marbling, I never knew whether things weren't working due to the paper or for another reason. I ended up buying old paper from an Op Shop (short for Opportunity Shop, or a charity shop) and successfully marbled with that. That way, I knew that I could marbled properly. I then wondered what would happen if all the paper manufacturers made paper that didn't work for marbling. What a horrible thought! I wanted to find a way to make "bad" paper into good paper. So, I went to a university library and looked up some old journals put out by the Technical Association of the Pulp and Paper Industry (TAPPI) and looked for articles on alum, calcium carbonate and anything else I thought might be relevant. I found that when aluminium salts (like alum) dissolve in water, they combine with the water and exists in many different forms. Exactly what form and how much  depends on the concentration, the temperature and the
            pH. I found it interesting that, when the pH approached neutral, the form was aluminium hydroxide (or something similar incorporating sulfate), and this is a white powder. I had found that a white powder formed on some of my papers after they had been alumed. I wondered whether the reason why some of the newer papers might not be working was because the alum could not get into the "correct form" because the pH of the paper was too high. I have no idea what this "correct form" is, because alum exists in lots of them at lower pHs. I am certain that the white precipitate is not the correct form for marbling! In this form, the aluminium is not interacting with the paper fibres at all, rather it is forming a white powder on the paper.

            I know that the modern papers contain a buffer that resists small changes in pH. I don't know how big a small change is, I think you need to know exactly what the buffer is. I thought that soaking the paper in something that was a mild acid, like soda water, might allow the alum to exist in the "right form". I know the buffer will be working to remove the acid, but how fast does it do this? I don't know! I certainly made paper that didn't work on a particular day, work that very same day by treating it with soda water, then alum. But, perhaps it didn't work initially for another reason?  I also tried other acids (tea (tannic acid), soluble aspro (salicylic acid), and even denture cleaning powder (sulfamic acid, and no, I don't wear dentures!). I found soda water worked best...it is cheap and isn't harmful.

            This is only my theory, I have no idea if it is correct. I certainly welcome any comments. I will be having another try over the Xmas/New Year break and will report back after that.

            Regards,
            Robyn


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Robyn Drew
            Thanks for the info about the paper, Iris. I m not going to order any at this stage, because I think the postage add too much to the price of the paper. I
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 2, 2011
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              Thanks for the info about the paper, Iris. I'm not going to order any at this stage, because I think the postage add too much to the price of the paper. I think Canson is available here, and I may already have some in my growing paper collection.

              Robyn



              ________________________________
              From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, 2 December 2011 12:37 AM
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re:paper problems


               
              These papers are generally not available in stores, you need to send for them via mail order. TALAS will sell small amounts. Some suppliers sell small amounts (as in under 100-500) of the Hahnemuele papers. Canson used to work, so I hear it is iffy now.

              Interested with the paper treatments. It would drive me mad. When I marble too, I tend to do a huge amount over a long day. To fit all that in would take too much time, but interesting to read!
              Iris Nevins
              marblingpaper.com

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Robyn Drew<mailto:robyn.drew27@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:03 AM
              Subject: [Marbling] Re:paper problems

              Thanks, Iris. I don't think the papers you mentioned are available from here, but I'll ask at a local supplier. I have used Neenah columns successfully (without soda water), which is made by the company that I think make your Classic Linen.

              The first time I tried the soda water treatment, I had already tried marbling the same paper on the same day, but without the soda water treatment. That was how I chose the paper that didn't work. The same type of paper then did work, an hour or so later (it was a hot day), after I had treated it with soda water, dried it, alumed it, and dried it again (yes, it was annoying doing another step or two, and would have been even more annoying if it had been Winter!). The only difference between that day, and one more recently (apart from the time of year, weather, ...) was that I used isocol (isopropyl alcohol) in the paints the first time, but 95% alcohol more recently. During the second session, I did all the soda water treatment, etc on the papers first (because I thought the papers wouldn't work otherwise...), and all worked. At the last minute, I thought I should just check a paper that had only alum on it, but on that day, it worked too! I will try
              things again soon. Perhaps I should try paints with isocol and paints with 95% alcohol on the same day, with paper that has been alumed and with paper that has the soda water, etc treatment!

              Regards
              Robyn

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • irisnevins
              I have heard some newer Canson doesn t work either... but try. Iris Nevins marblingpaper.com ... From: Robyn Drew To:
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 2, 2011
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                I have heard some newer Canson doesn't work either... but try.
                Iris Nevins
                marblingpaper.com

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Robyn Drew<mailto:robyn.drew27@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 4:05 AM
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re:paper problems


                Thanks for the info about the paper, Iris. I'm not going to order any at this stage, because I think the postage add too much to the price of the paper. I think Canson is available here, and I may already have some in my growing paper collection.

                Robyn



                ________________________________
                From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, 2 December 2011 12:37 AM
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re:paper problems



                These papers are generally not available in stores, you need to send for them via mail order. TALAS will sell small amounts. Some suppliers sell small amounts (as in under 100-500) of the Hahnemuele papers. Canson used to work, so I hear it is iffy now.

                Interested with the paper treatments. It would drive me mad. When I marble too, I tend to do a huge amount over a long day. To fit all that in would take too much time, but interesting to read!
                Iris Nevins
                marblingpaper.com

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Robyn Drew<mailto:robyn.drew27@...<mailto:robyn.drew27@...>>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:03 AM
                Subject: [Marbling] Re:paper problems

                Thanks, Iris. I don't think the papers you mentioned are available from here, but I'll ask at a local supplier. I have used Neenah columns successfully (without soda water), which is made by the company that I think make your Classic Linen.

                The first time I tried the soda water treatment, I had already tried marbling the same paper on the same day, but without the soda water treatment. That was how I chose the paper that didn't work. The same type of paper then did work, an hour or so later (it was a hot day), after I had treated it with soda water, dried it, alumed it, and dried it again (yes, it was annoying doing another step or two, and would have been even more annoying if it had been Winter!). The only difference between that day, and one more recently (apart from the time of year, weather, ...) was that I used isocol (isopropyl alcohol) in the paints the first time, but 95% alcohol more recently. During the second session, I did all the soda water treatment, etc on the papers first (because I thought the papers wouldn't work otherwise...), and all worked. At the last minute, I thought I should just check a paper that had only alum on it, but on that day, it worked too! I will try
                things again soon. Perhaps I should try paints with isocol and paints with 95% alcohol on the same day, with paper that has been alumed and with paper that has the soda water, etc treatment!

                Regards
                Robyn

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • irisnevins
                Who knows!! I tried everything I could think of, to no avail. I had heard way back, a bookbinder on some group saying that papers that he bought that were acid
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 2, 2011
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                  Who knows!!

                  I tried everything I could think of, to no avail. I had heard way back, a bookbinder on some group saying that papers that he bought that were acid free, a few years later, were no longer after sitting around. So I tried my non-working Natur Text again, and it works with fresh alum. I like to work with a dry pre-alumed sheet, but can live with this until I used it up, the old way...alum a few sheets at a time as you go.
                  Iris Nevins
                  marblingpaper.com
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Robyn Drew<mailto:robyn.drew27@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 4:01 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re:paper problems




                  Hi Caryl,

                  No, the soda water treatment didn't replace alum. I buy soda water at the supermarket (in Australia). Perhaps it is called something else in other places? I soaked the paper in soda water (straight from the bottle, at room temp), dried it, then alumed, then dried, then marbled on the same day.

                  Why did I think of doing this? When I first tried marbling, I never knew whether things weren't working due to the paper or for another reason. I ended up buying old paper from an Op Shop (short for Opportunity Shop, or a charity shop) and successfully marbled with that. That way, I knew that I could marbled properly. I then wondered what would happen if all the paper manufacturers made paper that didn't work for marbling. What a horrible thought! I wanted to find a way to make "bad" paper into good paper. So, I went to a university library and looked up some old journals put out by the Technical Association of the Pulp and Paper Industry (TAPPI) and looked for articles on alum, calcium carbonate and anything else I thought might be relevant. I found that when aluminium salts (like alum) dissolve in water, they combine with the water and exists in many different forms. Exactly what form and how much depends on the concentration, the temperature and the
                  pH. I found it interesting that, when the pH approached neutral, the form was aluminium hydroxide (or something similar incorporating sulfate), and this is a white powder. I had found that a white powder formed on some of my papers after they had been alumed. I wondered whether the reason why some of the newer papers might not be working was because the alum could not get into the "correct form" because the pH of the paper was too high. I have no idea what this "correct form" is, because alum exists in lots of them at lower pHs. I am certain that the white precipitate is not the correct form for marbling! In this form, the aluminium is not interacting with the paper fibres at all, rather it is forming a white powder on the paper.

                  I know that the modern papers contain a buffer that resists small changes in pH. I don't know how big a small change is, I think you need to know exactly what the buffer is. I thought that soaking the paper in something that was a mild acid, like soda water, might allow the alum to exist in the "right form". I know the buffer will be working to remove the acid, but how fast does it do this? I don't know! I certainly made paper that didn't work on a particular day, work that very same day by treating it with soda water, then alum. But, perhaps it didn't work initially for another reason? I also tried other acids (tea (tannic acid), soluble aspro (salicylic acid), and even denture cleaning powder (sulfamic acid, and no, I don't wear dentures!). I found soda water worked best...it is cheap and isn't harmful.

                  This is only my theory, I have no idea if it is correct. I certainly welcome any comments. I will be having another try over the Xmas/New Year break and will report back after that.

                  Regards,
                  Robyn


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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