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Re: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...

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  • irisnevins
    Interesting, thanks. I have used MC and just followed the recipe with ammonia and never questioned. It worked but I like carrageenan better. I just make what I
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 15, 2011
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      Interesting, thanks. I have used MC and just followed the recipe with ammonia and never questioned. It worked but I like carrageenan better. I just make what I need for the day and don't store it. Now I am curious as to what ammonia may do to carrageenan, if anything. Always experimenting.

      Iris Nevins
      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: carylhanc@...<mailto:carylhanc@...>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:22 PM
      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...


      Hi, Iris and all,


      The ammonia has to do only with the use of methylcel, which does not actually dissolve, but swells, and it needs a higher pH to do that. Most recipes for using M/C include some quantity of ammonia (clear, unscented, non-sudzing) - 1 tsp to 1 TBSP/gallon, added after the M/C has had a brief chance to be stirred to disperse in the water. For me, that is usually a couple of minutes, despite the recipe suggesting to wait several minutes to 1/2 hour.


      Without adding the ammonia, the M/C will form gelatinous clumps or a huge mass (think Jello!) on the bottom of the bucket, which no amount of stirring, blending, pushing through a sieve, or even adding the ammonia then, etc., will disperse (learned that lesson the hard way!). I did get one M/C supplier to finally acknowledge that insufficient ammonia was the culprit in the mess, and very early on in my experience, when that happened to me, another supplier suggested that I had "old" ammonia. While I don't usually test my water pH each time I make a batch of size, I also usually err on the side of adding an extra small splash of ammonia. I try to aim for a pH of about 8 in the water for mixing the M/C. And what often happens by the time the M/C has aged, the pH has returned to about 7 or neutral; I figure that is because the ammonia (NH4OH) has "separated," and the ammonia has dispersed into the air and the OH- has joined its companions in the bucket of water. Please keep in mind
      that my high school and college chemistry was very long ago!


      I hope that helps!


      Caryl in Indiana


      -----Original Message-----
      From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>
      To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
      Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2011 9:38 am
      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...





      I imagine it varies from one paint maker or method to another. So do what works. Water softeners don't like my paints one bit! It's not a drastic difference, but enough to be annoying when you know the paper would be better with other water.

      One thing, and maybe it relates more to acrylics, and I don't pretend to know everything about marbling....but why exactly is the PH and issue. I never heard a thing about it until people marbling with acrylics on MC size. Will test mine out of curiosity... or maybe just add ammonia for the fun of it in a test tray. I will be using watercolors. Try everything is my motto, sometimes it works.

      Is there a drastic difference in the end result with the ammonia or raising or lowering the PH? I tend not to mess with what works, and what I do with hard water, it works fine. The real problem has been paper. If there is something to tweak to make buffered papers perhaps take the color, I am ready to try anything. So what happens if you do not add the ammonia Caryl? Curious.

      Iris Nevins
      www.marblingpaper.com<;http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3c;http//www.marblingpaper.com/>>

      ---- Original Message -----
      From: carylhanc@...<mailto:carylhanc@...<mailto:carylhanc@...%3Cmailto:carylhanc@...>>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
      Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 10:59 AM
      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...

      Hi!
      I have a water softener in my home, and use softened water; I marble with methylcel and Goldens and other craft paints and have no issues except that the pH of my water is often 6 or a little lower, so I put in a little more ammonia when mixing the M/C.
      Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis

      -----Original Message-----
      From: fritzmiklaf <fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...%3Cmailto:fritzmiklaf@...>>>
      To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>>
      Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2011 6:34 am
      Subject: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...

      Hi Iris

      This is funny because when Don Guyot gave his first workshop in Toronto (too
      long ago to remember) he thought the water from Shelagh's house was great.
      It turned out that she had a water softener that was some sort of salt
      process that I don't understand.

      Our water in Jerusalem is really hard and Ph7 which is great for washing
      paper, but I am fearful about using it for marbling. I should explain that I
      am about to get back into marbling after years of neglect. I am doing a
      'semi-retirement' from binding so that I can print and marble again. I was
      thinking of installing a water softener, but maybe I'll experiment first and
      then maybe try distilled.

      Thanks for your input.

      Yehuda

      Yehuda Miklaf

      Jerusalem

      <mailto:fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...%3Cmailto:fritzmiklaf@...>>> fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...%3Cmailto:fritzmiklaf@...>>

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