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Re: [Marbling] to Rinse or not to Rinse...

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  • irisnevins
    Whatever works for you is what is correct. And there is a third option, to not drag the paper out, but to hang it right up on the line and let the size drip
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 14, 2011
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      Whatever works for you is what is correct. And there is a third option, to not drag the paper out, but to hang it right up on the line and let the size drip off into buckets. The trick to that is to use just about the right amount of paint so it doesn't run off as excess. It's not that hard. I have done it for over 33 years this way....LOL...since I still have not had anyone teach me how to marble properly yet! Just try. At first you may use too little paint, other times a bit too much, but it's easy to get to the right amount of paint. I sometimes, but rarely will find I need to rinse one, for example, a Spanish paper where I accidently put too much veining color down before the main color. If the color runs off, rinse it, if not, hang it up. I have also found that the residue of whatever size left on the paper protects it from "rubbing" if watercolor. It has not changed the Ph or discolored or anything even on my three decades + old papers.

      So... sorry to confuse you, but try every way, do what works, and who cares if it is "correct". Make the marbling as easy as possible for yourself and don't be afraid of it. And not to be going against what others say, but why are you hauling in distilled water? Is your tap water so bad? Why not try it? I have the world's hardest water, and have experimented with it against all types, softened, distilled, spring, and rain water. Even water from my dehumidifier. The only little difference is that I need a slightly more rounded TBS. of carrageenan rather than a level one to get the same viscosity. I see no shade differences, and my water is FULL of lime, rust, you name it. It's a problem with the sink fixtures, hot water heaters, pipes, toilets, so it's that hard. Years back I marbled in another place in the area where we were blessed with sulpher on top of all else. I did the best marbling in my life there. Wish I could get that water back, just in case that was the "secret". Maybe I am in the minority but I just don't think there is any magic in what water you use. The only one I say to never use, is water that comes out of a water softener, the borax or salts make the paints weak and fuzzy. So if you have one of these softeners at your place, yes, bottled water is recommended.... but it doesn't need to be distilled. I find my paints liking the minerals really, or at least not minding them at all.

      Hope I am not stirring up any arguments, because how we each marble is personal, this is just my point of view on it. As I said, I haven't had a marbling lesson yet, so had to make up my own ways and tend to take the path of least resistance. When you find something that works, do it. Try everyone's way, and while marbling can be oversensitive and totally frustrating at times, I have never found the cause to be water, and I also realize I am in the minority in that I don't rinse (unless I goof with too much paint!!) due to using just enough paint. Papers are not pale this way either.

      Iris Nevins
      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: teaweave<mailto:weaver@...>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:45 AM
      Subject: [Marbling] to Rinse or not to Rinse...


      My first attempt at marbling paper yesterday went very well (I even remembered to do the marbling on the alummed side of the paper by the third try <g>).
      I am using acrylic paints and caraggenan in distilled water. The instructions in the Galen Berry booklet I have says that after marbling the paper must be rinsed in gently running water for 20 seconds. However, the videos I have seen on youtube of expert marlbers do not show any rinsing, but they are drawing the paper carefully over the edge of the marbling tank. Are there situations in which rinsing IS necessary? How do I know which to do and how?
      Forest



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      Yahoo! Groups Links





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    • Uuglypher
      ... By organized trial and error. Experiment in a rational manner. Rinse with gently flowing water for some predetermined time...say ten seconds. Then, in a
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 14, 2011
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        > How do I know which to do and how?
        >
        By organized trial and error. Experiment in a rational manner. Rinse with gently flowing water for some predetermined time...say ten seconds. Then, in a step-wise manner, increase the force of water flow for that same period of time until you see evidence of rinsing off the marbled color.
        Simple process. Not hard. Not rocket science. Be an autodidact. The lesson means more if you teach it to yourself rather than being "spoon-fed". And then, when the same question is asked by someone else, you can give an authoritative, objective answer. Clearly, the process of rinsing varies with the particular size employed, it's concentration, the mordanting process, the particular marbling paints used, and their concentration. No simple answer. You determine it in the context of your particular marbling process.

        Dave in SD



        On Sep 14, 2011, at 8:45 AM, "teaweave" <weaver@...> wrote:

        > My first attempt at marbling paper yesterday went very well (I even remembered to do the marbling on the alummed side of the paper by the third try <g>).
        > I am using acrylic paints and caraggenan in distilled water. The instructions in the Galen Berry booklet I have says that after marbling the paper must be rinsed in gently running water for 20 seconds. However, the videos I have seen on youtube of expert marlbers do not show any rinsing, but they are drawing the paper carefully over the edge of the marbling tank. Are there situations in which rinsing IS necessary? How do I know which to do and how?
        > Forest
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Barb Skoog
        Hi Forest, First of all...congrats on your first marbling journey! I hope you find your marbling experience to be as rewarding and energizing as I have. That
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 14, 2011
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          Hi Forest,

          First of all...congrats on your first marbling journey! I hope you find your marbling experience to be as rewarding and energizing as I have. That being said, welcome to the world of total chaos! What worked last time, last hour, and even last minute, can now be tossed out the window. Every second is a new beginning. Just get used to that and you'll be in heaven.

          I have taken two classes from incredibly talented marbling artists and both approached rinsing differently. My first teacher rinsed everything right away. My second teacher let papers sit a while (anywhere from five to 20 minutes!)and then rinsed. My experience has been that both ways worked (I've been marbling for about two years now). When I'm in my own studio and marbling on my Arches paper, I can rinse right away. When I'm on certain Canson papers, I have to let it sit. I've recently started marbling on canvas and found that letting it totally dry first and then rinsing is the only way to go (for now). So it is just a matter of trial and error, which is par for the course in marbling. Test, test, test, and trust your instinct. In the end, however, I believe you must at some point rinse off the excess carrageenan or something happens to the paper.

          Best of luck with your marbling and have fun experimenting!
          Barb


          >________________________________
          >From: teaweave <weaver@...>
          >To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          >Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 6:45 AM
          >Subject: [Marbling] to Rinse or not to Rinse...
          >
          >

          >My first attempt at marbling paper yesterday went very well (I even remembered to do the marbling on the alummed side of the paper by the third try <g>).
          >I am using acrylic paints and caraggenan in distilled water. The instructions in the Galen Berry booklet I have says that after marbling the paper must be rinsed in gently running water for 20 seconds. However, the videos I have seen on youtube of expert marlbers do not show any rinsing, but they are drawing the paper carefully over the edge of the marbling tank. Are there situations in which rinsing IS necessary? How do I know which to do and how?
          >Forest
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • fritzmiklaf@bezeqint.net
          Hi Iris This is funny because when Don Guyot gave his first workshop in Toronto (too long ago to remember) he thought the water from Shelagh s house was great.
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 15, 2011
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            Hi Iris

            This is funny because when Don Guyot gave his first workshop in Toronto (too
            long ago to remember) he thought the water from Shelagh's house was great.
            It turned out that she had a water softener that was some sort of salt
            process that I don't understand.

            Our water in Jerusalem is really hard and Ph7 which is great for washing
            paper, but I am fearful about using it for marbling. I should explain that I
            am about to get back into marbling after years of neglect. I am doing a
            'semi-retirement' from binding so that I can print and marble again. I was
            thinking of installing a water softener, but maybe I'll experiment first and
            then maybe try distilled.

            Thanks for your input.

            Yehuda



            Yehuda Miklaf

            Jerusalem

            <mailto:fritzmiklaf@...> fritzmiklaf@...

            <http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/> www.yehudamiklaf.com





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • carylhanc@aol.com
            Hi! I have a water softener in my home, and use softened water; I marble with methylcel and Goldens and other craft paints and have no issues except that the
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 15, 2011
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              Hi!
              I have a water softener in my home, and use softened water; I marble with methylcel and Goldens and other craft paints and have no issues except that the pH of my water is often 6 or a little lower, so I put in a little more ammonia when mixing the M/C.
              Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis





              -----Original Message-----
              From: fritzmiklaf <fritzmiklaf@...>
              To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2011 6:34 am
              Subject: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...





              Hi Iris

              This is funny because when Don Guyot gave his first workshop in Toronto (too
              long ago to remember) he thought the water from Shelagh's house was great.
              It turned out that she had a water softener that was some sort of salt
              process that I don't understand.

              Our water in Jerusalem is really hard and Ph7 which is great for washing
              paper, but I am fearful about using it for marbling. I should explain that I
              am about to get back into marbling after years of neglect. I am doing a
              'semi-retirement' from binding so that I can print and marble again. I was
              thinking of installing a water softener, but maybe I'll experiment first and
              then maybe try distilled.

              Thanks for your input.

              Yehuda

              Yehuda Miklaf

              Jerusalem

              <mailto:fritzmiklaf@...> fritzmiklaf@...

              <http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/> www.yehudamiklaf.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • irisnevins
              I recall Don saying reverse osmosis systems were OK, if I am correct. Don, are you on this group? I think not, but just in case, maybe you recall the water
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 15, 2011
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                I recall Don saying reverse osmosis systems were OK, if I am correct. Don, are you on this group? I think not, but just in case, maybe you recall the water issue. I always thought NYC tap water divine, but had to use less size powder that in my area.

                Yehuda... I'd just try the tap water, it may be perfect. If it's not, please keep in mind it may not be the water, but the buffering issues on the papers.

                Iris Nevins
                www.mqrblingpaper.com<http://www.mqrblingpaper.com/>
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 10:33 AM
                Subject: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...


                Hi Iris

                This is funny because when Don Guyot gave his first workshop in Toronto (too
                long ago to remember) he thought the water from Shelagh's house was great.
                It turned out that she had a water softener that was some sort of salt
                process that I don't understand.

                Our water in Jerusalem is really hard and Ph7 which is great for washing
                paper, but I am fearful about using it for marbling. I should explain that I
                am about to get back into marbling after years of neglect. I am doing a
                'semi-retirement' from binding so that I can print and marble again. I was
                thinking of installing a water softener, but maybe I'll experiment first and
                then maybe try distilled.

                Thanks for your input.

                Yehuda



                Yehuda Miklaf

                Jerusalem

                <mailto:fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...>> fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...>

                <http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/<http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/>> www.yehudamiklaf.com<http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/>





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • irisnevins
                I imagine it varies from one paint maker or method to another. So do what works. Water softeners don t like my paints one bit! It s not a drastic difference,
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 15, 2011
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                  I imagine it varies from one paint maker or method to another. So do what works. Water softeners don't like my paints one bit! It's not a drastic difference, but enough to be annoying when you know the paper would be better with other water.

                  One thing, and maybe it relates more to acrylics, and I don't pretend to know everything about marbling....but why exactly is the PH and issue. I never heard a thing about it until people marbling with acrylics on MC size. Will test mine out of curiosity... or maybe just add ammonia for the fun of it in a test tray. I will be using watercolors. Try everything is my motto, sometimes it works.

                  Is there a drastic difference in the end result with the ammonia or raising or lowering the PH? I tend not to mess with what works, and what I do with hard water, it works fine. The real problem has been paper. If there is something to tweak to make buffered papers perhaps take the color, I am ready to try anything. So what happens if you do not add the ammonia Caryl? Curious.

                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

                  ---- Original Message -----
                  From: carylhanc@...<mailto:carylhanc@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 10:59 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...


                  Hi!
                  I have a water softener in my home, and use softened water; I marble with methylcel and Goldens and other craft paints and have no issues except that the pH of my water is often 6 or a little lower, so I put in a little more ammonia when mixing the M/C.
                  Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis





                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: fritzmiklaf <fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...>>
                  To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                  Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2011 6:34 am
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...





                  Hi Iris

                  This is funny because when Don Guyot gave his first workshop in Toronto (too
                  long ago to remember) he thought the water from Shelagh's house was great.
                  It turned out that she had a water softener that was some sort of salt
                  process that I don't understand.

                  Our water in Jerusalem is really hard and Ph7 which is great for washing
                  paper, but I am fearful about using it for marbling. I should explain that I
                  am about to get back into marbling after years of neglect. I am doing a
                  'semi-retirement' from binding so that I can print and marble again. I was
                  thinking of installing a water softener, but maybe I'll experiment first and
                  then maybe try distilled.

                  Thanks for your input.

                  Yehuda

                  Yehuda Miklaf

                  Jerusalem

                  <mailto:fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...>> fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...>

                  <http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/<http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/>> www.yehudamiklaf.com<http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/>

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • carylhanc@aol.com
                  Hi, Iris and all, The ammonia has to do only with the use of methylcel, which does not actually dissolve, but swells, and it needs a higher pH to do that.
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 15, 2011
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                    Hi, Iris and all,


                    The ammonia has to do only with the use of methylcel, which does not actually dissolve, but swells, and it needs a higher pH to do that. Most recipes for using M/C include some quantity of ammonia (clear, unscented, non-sudzing) - 1 tsp to 1 TBSP/gallon, added after the M/C has had a brief chance to be stirred to disperse in the water. For me, that is usually a couple of minutes, despite the recipe suggesting to wait several minutes to 1/2 hour.


                    Without adding the ammonia, the M/C will form gelatinous clumps or a huge mass (think Jello!) on the bottom of the bucket, which no amount of stirring, blending, pushing through a sieve, or even adding the ammonia then, etc., will disperse (learned that lesson the hard way!). I did get one M/C supplier to finally acknowledge that insufficient ammonia was the culprit in the mess, and very early on in my experience, when that happened to me, another supplier suggested that I had "old" ammonia. While I don't usually test my water pH each time I make a batch of size, I also usually err on the side of adding an extra small splash of ammonia. I try to aim for a pH of about 8 in the water for mixing the M/C. And what often happens by the time the M/C has aged, the pH has returned to about 7 or neutral; I figure that is because the ammonia (NH4OH) has "separated," and the ammonia has dispersed into the air and the OH- has joined its companions in the bucket of water. Please keep in mind that my high school and college chemistry was very long ago!


                    I hope that helps!


                    Caryl in Indiana


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                    To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2011 9:38 am
                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...





                    I imagine it varies from one paint maker or method to another. So do what works. Water softeners don't like my paints one bit! It's not a drastic difference, but enough to be annoying when you know the paper would be better with other water.

                    One thing, and maybe it relates more to acrylics, and I don't pretend to know everything about marbling....but why exactly is the PH and issue. I never heard a thing about it until people marbling with acrylics on MC size. Will test mine out of curiosity... or maybe just add ammonia for the fun of it in a test tray. I will be using watercolors. Try everything is my motto, sometimes it works.

                    Is there a drastic difference in the end result with the ammonia or raising or lowering the PH? I tend not to mess with what works, and what I do with hard water, it works fine. The real problem has been paper. If there is something to tweak to make buffered papers perhaps take the color, I am ready to try anything. So what happens if you do not add the ammonia Caryl? Curious.

                    Iris Nevins
                    www.marblingpaper.com<;http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

                    ---- Original Message -----
                    From: carylhanc@...<mailto:carylhanc@...>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 10:59 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...

                    Hi!
                    I have a water softener in my home, and use softened water; I marble with methylcel and Goldens and other craft paints and have no issues except that the pH of my water is often 6 or a little lower, so I put in a little more ammonia when mixing the M/C.
                    Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: fritzmiklaf <fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...>>
                    To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                    Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2011 6:34 am
                    Subject: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...

                    Hi Iris

                    This is funny because when Don Guyot gave his first workshop in Toronto (too
                    long ago to remember) he thought the water from Shelagh's house was great.
                    It turned out that she had a water softener that was some sort of salt
                    process that I don't understand.

                    Our water in Jerusalem is really hard and Ph7 which is great for washing
                    paper, but I am fearful about using it for marbling. I should explain that I
                    am about to get back into marbling after years of neglect. I am doing a
                    'semi-retirement' from binding so that I can print and marble again. I was
                    thinking of installing a water softener, but maybe I'll experiment first and
                    then maybe try distilled.

                    Thanks for your input.

                    Yehuda

                    Yehuda Miklaf

                    Jerusalem

                    <mailto:fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...>> fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...>

                    <http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/<http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/>> www.yehudamiklaf.com<;http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/>

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ------------------------------------

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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • irisnevins
                    Interesting, thanks. I have used MC and just followed the recipe with ammonia and never questioned. It worked but I like carrageenan better. I just make what I
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 15, 2011
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                      Interesting, thanks. I have used MC and just followed the recipe with ammonia and never questioned. It worked but I like carrageenan better. I just make what I need for the day and don't store it. Now I am curious as to what ammonia may do to carrageenan, if anything. Always experimenting.

                      Iris Nevins
                      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: carylhanc@...<mailto:carylhanc@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:22 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...


                      Hi, Iris and all,


                      The ammonia has to do only with the use of methylcel, which does not actually dissolve, but swells, and it needs a higher pH to do that. Most recipes for using M/C include some quantity of ammonia (clear, unscented, non-sudzing) - 1 tsp to 1 TBSP/gallon, added after the M/C has had a brief chance to be stirred to disperse in the water. For me, that is usually a couple of minutes, despite the recipe suggesting to wait several minutes to 1/2 hour.


                      Without adding the ammonia, the M/C will form gelatinous clumps or a huge mass (think Jello!) on the bottom of the bucket, which no amount of stirring, blending, pushing through a sieve, or even adding the ammonia then, etc., will disperse (learned that lesson the hard way!). I did get one M/C supplier to finally acknowledge that insufficient ammonia was the culprit in the mess, and very early on in my experience, when that happened to me, another supplier suggested that I had "old" ammonia. While I don't usually test my water pH each time I make a batch of size, I also usually err on the side of adding an extra small splash of ammonia. I try to aim for a pH of about 8 in the water for mixing the M/C. And what often happens by the time the M/C has aged, the pH has returned to about 7 or neutral; I figure that is because the ammonia (NH4OH) has "separated," and the ammonia has dispersed into the air and the OH- has joined its companions in the bucket of water. Please keep in mind
                      that my high school and college chemistry was very long ago!


                      I hope that helps!


                      Caryl in Indiana


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>
                      To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                      Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2011 9:38 am
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...





                      I imagine it varies from one paint maker or method to another. So do what works. Water softeners don't like my paints one bit! It's not a drastic difference, but enough to be annoying when you know the paper would be better with other water.

                      One thing, and maybe it relates more to acrylics, and I don't pretend to know everything about marbling....but why exactly is the PH and issue. I never heard a thing about it until people marbling with acrylics on MC size. Will test mine out of curiosity... or maybe just add ammonia for the fun of it in a test tray. I will be using watercolors. Try everything is my motto, sometimes it works.

                      Is there a drastic difference in the end result with the ammonia or raising or lowering the PH? I tend not to mess with what works, and what I do with hard water, it works fine. The real problem has been paper. If there is something to tweak to make buffered papers perhaps take the color, I am ready to try anything. So what happens if you do not add the ammonia Caryl? Curious.

                      Iris Nevins
                      www.marblingpaper.com<;http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3c;http//www.marblingpaper.com/>>

                      ---- Original Message -----
                      From: carylhanc@...<mailto:carylhanc@...<mailto:carylhanc@...%3Cmailto:carylhanc@...>>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                      Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 10:59 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...

                      Hi!
                      I have a water softener in my home, and use softened water; I marble with methylcel and Goldens and other craft paints and have no issues except that the pH of my water is often 6 or a little lower, so I put in a little more ammonia when mixing the M/C.
                      Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: fritzmiklaf <fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...%3Cmailto:fritzmiklaf@...>>>
                      To: Marbling <Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>>
                      Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2011 6:34 am
                      Subject: [Marbling] Re: to Rinse or not to Rinse...

                      Hi Iris

                      This is funny because when Don Guyot gave his first workshop in Toronto (too
                      long ago to remember) he thought the water from Shelagh's house was great.
                      It turned out that she had a water softener that was some sort of salt
                      process that I don't understand.

                      Our water in Jerusalem is really hard and Ph7 which is great for washing
                      paper, but I am fearful about using it for marbling. I should explain that I
                      am about to get back into marbling after years of neglect. I am doing a
                      'semi-retirement' from binding so that I can print and marble again. I was
                      thinking of installing a water softener, but maybe I'll experiment first and
                      then maybe try distilled.

                      Thanks for your input.

                      Yehuda

                      Yehuda Miklaf

                      Jerusalem

                      <mailto:fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...%3Cmailto:fritzmiklaf@...>>> fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...<mailto:fritzmiklaf@...%3Cmailto:fritzmiklaf@...>>

                      <http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/<http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/<http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/%3Chttp://www.yehudamiklaf.com/>>> www.yehudamiklaf.com<;http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/<http://www.yehudamiklaf.com%3c;http//www.yehudamiklaf.com/>>

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