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Re: Paper in Turkey/for Iris

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  • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
    Lick and wipe is the hard test for any colour that s meant to stay on the paper when required to, nothing special for paste paper, and anyway I did it with one
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 21, 2011
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      Lick and wipe is the hard test for any colour that's meant to stay on the paper when required to, nothing special for paste paper, and anyway I did it with one of Hikmet's (to prove that the colours stay on the paper indeed, no matter what Jake says).

      And no, it's not Hahnemühle. I've stopped using Hahnemühle years ago, too heavy, too voluminous, too stiff, doesn't agree with sprinkled papers.

      If you're interested I can ask my supplier about a dealer in USA.

      Susanne Krause
    • irisnevins
      Hi Susanne... we all used to do the tongue test, which in my first book I believe I recommended, if it stuck a bit, the paper nearly always worked. Things in
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 21, 2011
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        Hi Susanne... we all used to do the tongue test, which in my first book I believe I recommended, if it stuck a bit, the paper nearly always worked. Things in marbling are not so simple anymore. the only test like that I can use now, is after aluming, does the paper taste sweet. If not, it has been neutralized and the color will nearly always run. I'd try any paper anywhere at this point! I would need a 19 X 25 preferably long grain sheet about 70-80lb text weight. Would appreciate it...you can email me privately if you like...though others may like to know!

        I still am confused on lick and wipe. Do you paint the paper first, then lick and wipe, or is it just the plain paper before any paint on it? If no paint is one, what do we look for the lick and wipe to do?

        thanks,

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:studio@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 11:11 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] Re: Paper in Turkey/for Iris


        Lick and wipe is the hard test for any colour that's meant to stay on the paper when required to, nothing special for paste paper, and anyway I did it with one of Hikmet's (to prove that the colours stay on the paper indeed, no matter what Jake says).

        And no, it's not Hahnemühle. I've stopped using Hahnemühle years ago, too heavy, too voluminous, too stiff, doesn't agree with sprinkled papers.

        If you're interested I can ask my supplier about a dealer in USA.

        Susanne Krause




        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jemiljan
        Susanne... It seems you are fortunate to possess what is my experience, exceptional examples. Should you ever visit me, I would be happy to show you the many
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 21, 2011
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          Susanne... It seems you are fortunate to possess what is my experience, exceptional examples. Should you ever visit me, I would be happy to show you the many papers I've collected from Turkey over the years, and why I must keep them in archival sleeves, in order to prevent their smudging. It seems to me that whatever paper you gave to Hikmet is likely a better quality one, and so the marbling adhered better to those sheets than the examples of his work that I obtained in Turkey. Maybe you could share with us just what that paper is? It may be a useful tip for all of us.

          Yes, the colors can adhere better to an non-mordanted paper if thinly applied (the paler background of a flower, for example); and if the paper is well made, with good fiber, and little (if any) buffer, as Iris mentioned). Incidentally, Halfer describes why pigments adhere without alum in his chapter on Tragacanth in "Die Fortschritte...", and much as Iris noted, he specifically mentions that earth colors are especially conducive. That said, most all of the densely saturated patterned papers (standard battals, gelgits, and so on) that I obtained in Turkey from many different marblers do have a certain tendency to smear, including earth colors, and it seems to me that the quality of the paper is a major factor. Older papers executed on handmade or mould-made sheets - even those which are not coated with the traditional Ahar- do not seem to exhibit this problem. Then again, even when using a mordanted paper, indigo has a tendency to smudge, a problem that I believe Iris can describe in detail.

          Jake

          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@...> wrote:
          >
          > Jake-
          >
          > got out the papers, licked my finger, wiped: everything okay.
          >
          > No time now to call the firm and find out which additive they use.
          >
          > Susanne
          >
        • irisnevins
          Jake we could go on forever on this. I love traditional styled marbling and much of my life has been devoted to it, but I will not be a slave to tradition when
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 21, 2011
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            Jake we could go on forever on this. I love traditional styled marbling and much of my life has been devoted to it, but I will not be a slave to tradition when something works better. Indigo is one example. Yes it smears, even when I treat it like other pigments I make paints from. All the chemical "why" about it didn't concern me as much as the "how" to make it work, and I couldn't. I had a few annoyed customers at one point over it and it was terribly embarrassing too. So I make a similar color from black and blue. Close enough, no smear. People think I am a purist, but don't make me give up my plastic squeeze bottles!!

            As for paper I learned something very distressing today in a long ongoing email dialog with a papermaker I have been having, who may prefer to not be named. Recycled paper... good, green, cool, wonderful... well....maybe not for us. Did you ever get a batch of paper that was recycled, and it worked. You order again, the color comes off. You order yet another time, it works again. Why... the papers they recycle FROM, there is no telling how much calcium carbonate is in them. They come from many different makers. Thus, there is NO CONTROL over the amount of the dreadful stuff is in each particular batch of recyclable material they get in. Pretty scary.... I said "now I've heard everything". What next. So I was advised to never recommend a recycled paper for marbling at all, because of this inconsistency. It makes me think way back to Ink & Gall days, Jake, if you recall...I did an article on recyled paper....and this was over 20 years ago. My feeling was that all the papers I tested were sub-par and basically said I didn't care how cool it was to recycle, I wouldn't use them. Well.... some of us know what happened next but I was not writing for the magazine anymore after that. We'll leave that one go!

            I have learned to allow myself a backlog of 800-1000 sheets of paper that work, so I can function while looking for yet another paper. I am very intrigued by the inkjet coatings, and that you can skip the alum. Has to be the best quality. I have not bothered to try the larger sizes than 11 X 14 I think... I suspect the light weight at 18 X 24 with make it rip when wet. It's not cheap. Talas paper is good, but I still want to find a solution of some sort in general if there is one. I have thousands of sheets of paper that used to work, and then I received buffered cartons. No notice, not that they should care so much about marblers.

            What I need to do when there is time (laugh track inserted) is buy a bottle of the coating and see if it can be diluted down to watery, and used like alum, and see if I can use up the darned 2000+ buffered papers I was not allowed to return over the past five years! Maybe someday!

            Well.... tired of thinking about this today.
            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: jemiljan<mailto:jemiljan@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 10:57 PM
            Subject: [Marbling] Re: Paper in Turkey


            Susanne... It seems you are fortunate to possess what is my experience, exceptional examples. Should you ever visit me, I would be happy to show you the many papers I've collected from Turkey over the years, and why I must keep them in archival sleeves, in order to prevent their smudging. It seems to me that whatever paper you gave to Hikmet is likely a better quality one, and so the marbling adhered better to those sheets than the examples of his work that I obtained in Turkey. Maybe you could share with us just what that paper is? It may be a useful tip for all of us.

            Yes, the colors can adhere better to an non-mordanted paper if thinly applied (the paler background of a flower, for example); and if the paper is well made, with good fiber, and little (if any) buffer, as Iris mentioned). Incidentally, Halfer describes why pigments adhere without alum in his chapter on Tragacanth in "Die Fortschritte...", and much as Iris noted, he specifically mentions that earth colors are especially conducive. That said, most all of the densely saturated patterned papers (standard battals, gelgits, and so on) that I obtained in Turkey from many different marblers do have a certain tendency to smear, including earth colors, and it seems to me that the quality of the paper is a major factor. Older papers executed on handmade or mould-made sheets - even those which are not coated with the traditional Ahar- do not seem to exhibit this problem. Then again, even when using a mordanted paper, indigo has a tendency to smudge, a problem that I believe Iris can describe
            in detail.

            Jake

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@...> wrote:
            >
            > Jake-
            >
            > got out the papers, licked my finger, wiped: everything okay.
            >
            > No time now to call the firm and find out which additive they use.
            >
            > Susanne
            >




            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
            Sorry for this, I hit the send key by accident. I can only second this: never use recycled paper for quality work. Recycling is an honourable and most
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 22, 2011
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              Sorry for this, I hit the send key by accident.


              I can only second this: never use recycled paper for quality work. Recycling is an honourable and most necessary task but it has its limits. Professional paper decorating beyond short living items such as gift wrappers is one of them.

              And I'm also seconding this: For reconstruction work, we need to reconstruct an impression, and we need to do this with materials answering to state-of-the-art archival and restoration requirements. It is most interesting to know what was used for the
              original and definitely very important for restoration/conservation and research. However, it is not what counts in reconstruction. Everything we can use today is 200 or 300 years younger than the original. Even if we go and dig coloured earth in the same place, the earth cannot be the same. I'm afraid it's wishful thinking that by the simple method of using some material with the original name we can get closer to the original product.

              As to paper: all my papers are made in Europe. I phoned around but none of my suppliers has a branch in the Americas. Sending paper overseas is always possible (and they're ready to do it if required) but costs a small fortune.

              Susanne Krause
            • irisnevins
              Thanks for checking Susanne! Iris Nevins www.marblingpaper.com ... From:
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 22, 2011
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                Thanks for checking Susanne!
                Iris Nevins
                www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:studio@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 4:33 AM
                Subject: [Marbling] Re: Paper in Turkey, last input from Hamburg



                I can only second this: never use recycled paper for quality work.

                And also this: For reconstruction work, we need to reconstruct an impression, and we need to do this with materials answering to state-of-the-art archival and restoration requirements. It is most interesting to know what was used for the original and definitely very important for restoration/conservation and research. However, it is not what counts in reconstruction. Everything we can use today is 200 or 300 years older than the original. Even if we go and dig coloured earth in the same place, the earth cannot be the same. I'm afraid it's wishful thinking that by the simple method of using something with the same label we can get closer to the original.

                As to paper: all my papers are made in Europe. I phoned around but none of my suppliers has a branch in the Americas. Sending paper overseas is always possible (and they're ready to do it if required) but costs a small fortune.

                Susanne Krause




                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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