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Re: [Marbling] Re: Very Bad Paper News

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  • irisnevins
    It would be a good idea but the paper, it was too textured and heavy for bookbinding use. I will be getting some acid neutral yet unbuffered bond sample to try
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 15, 2010
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      It would be a good idea but the paper, it was too textured and heavy for bookbinding use. I will be getting some acid neutral yet unbuffered bond sample to try shortly and will report back if they work. What is the paper like from the midwest and what would the cost be? You may email me off group if you don't want to discuss names or pricing.
      thanks.
      Iris Nevins
      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: zozo7bra<mailto:momora@...>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 6:50 PM
      Subject: [Marbling] Re: Very Bad Paper News


      Iris,

      Some months ago, a gentlemen from India had offered to send some samples of paper for you to try. Maybe, we should revive that thread, I would be willing to organize a buy, the way it is done in the jewelry groups.

      I will contact you offline and get the gentlemen info and if enough people are interested, I will take it upon myself to get it organized for this list and perhaps include some members of the binders list.

      I think this would be a great work around. Also, there is a company here in the Midwest that makes paper I have marbled on successfully. I will contact them to see if they can make that paper for us in white. Again it will require a group buy, there minimum custom order is 15,000 sheets. At this rate a group but of 30,000 might satisfy all of us for 1 yr.

      I will be in touch on private email before posting a larger group message.
      momora


      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
      >
      > Well, my worst fears have come true. I just ordered two carton of the Blick Sulphite paper and it has become buffered. I sadly tested with my PH Pen and the mark turned purple. I alumed a few sheets and the alum is neutralized. I suppose I shall try to marble it in a few days but fear it is not going to work, I can no longer taste the alum on it.
      >
      > Does anyone know of a good NON-Buffered paper? Talas sells one, and I think Renaissance Paper from various sources is the same. I will have to order some to try. It is quite pricey, and I have not been able to find the manufacturer to buy it wholesale. If anyone knows who make it I would appreciate hearing, or who distributes it in bulk.
      >
      > What paper is everyone using these days for watercolor marbling, in a 70-tops 80 pound paper at least 18 X 24, preferably long grain? Beware of the Blick paper, I will report back when I marble it. You should taste the alum on a paper that will work. For now I'd advise no one buy a new carton.
      >
      > I believe the 50 pound Blick Kraft paper on rolls still works, either tan or colors, but that's a real pain to cut up for sizeable orders. Ink Jet Paper, comes as large as 17 X 22 Chinecole from Atlantic Papers, but is small, lightweight, too bright a white, and expensive even wholesale, but the good news is that it marbles without alum! If you work the right side, the coated side.
      >
      > Iris Nevins
      > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >




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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • irisnevins
      I have learned to order paper when I still have one carton (500 sheets) left in store. This way I can keep working until I hopefully find something new. I did
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 15, 2010
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        I have learned to order paper when I still have one carton (500 sheets) left in store. This way I can keep working until I hopefully find something new. I did track down the people who supply the Blick paper and they confirmed, yes indeed it has gone acid free, buffered with the dreaded calcium carbonate! I wish they would have put that at the Blick site, I would have never ordered it, or would have tried a small amount rather than a whole 18 X 24 carton. Luckily their customer service was very understanding and I shipped the papers, two cartons, 1000 sheets, back today....which cost me nearly $32.00, but they are en route. so if your people get some, let them know to call customer service and they will take it back.

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: zozo7bra<mailto:momora@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 6:18 PM
        Subject: [Marbling] Re: Very Bad Paper News


        Would you believe yesterday I recommended that paper. Let me go and say hold it to these people. I got lucky and found some paper that works at a recycling place where they were selling something someone had given them.

        I just got lucky.
        momora

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jemiljan
        Hi Iris, Just today on the Book Arts list, there was a note from Aaron Salik at Talas about a paper that they are carrying, which Jim Tapley tried out and
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 15, 2010
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          Hi Iris,

          Just today on the Book Arts list, there was a note from Aaron Salik at Talas about a paper that they are carrying, which Jim Tapley tried out and likes it, and I assume that he's doing water color marbling.

          http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=63498

          I hope this solved the problem... for now at least! Due to the demand by photographic conservators for unbuffered materials that won't react to pH-sensitive color emulsions, I hope that this should be kept in production without any changes.

          Jake Benson


          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
          >
          > Well, my worst fears have come true. I just ordered two carton of the Blick Sulphite paper and it has become buffered. I sadly tested with my PH Pen and the mark turned purple. I alumed a few sheets and the alum is neutralized. I suppose I shall try to marble it in a few days but fear it is not going to work, I can no longer taste the alum on it.
          >
          > Does anyone know of a good NON-Buffered paper? Talas sells one, and I think Renaissance Paper from various sources is the same. I will have to order some to try. It is quite pricey, and I have not been able to find the manufacturer to buy it wholesale. If anyone knows who make it I would appreciate hearing, or who distributes it in bulk.
          >
          > What paper is everyone using these days for watercolor marbling, in a 70-tops 80 pound paper at least 18 X 24, preferably long grain? Beware of the Blick paper, I will report back when I marble it. You should taste the alum on a paper that will work. For now I'd advise no one buy a new carton.
          >
          > I believe the 50 pound Blick Kraft paper on rolls still works, either tan or colors, but that's a real pain to cut up for sizeable orders. Ink Jet Paper, comes as large as 17 X 22 Chinecole from Atlantic Papers, but is small, lightweight, too bright a white, and expensive even wholesale, but the good news is that it marbles without alum! If you work the right side, the coated side.
          >
          > Iris Nevins
          > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • irisnevins
          Yes, Jake, that is the paper I am waiting for samples of. I didn t want to name it until I saw how it works. Let s hope it does. It costs a lot more than the
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 16, 2010
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            Yes, Jake, that is the paper I am waiting for samples of. I didn't want to name it until I saw how it works. Let's hope it does. It costs a lot more than the Blick, but is not prohibitively expensive either. I hope to have an answer, and a reliable paper next week. When I marbled the new Blick it was horrible. The color sludged off. I told them they should mention it has the CC Buffering in the mix. DOubt it will do any good. I have SOOO much paper around here I just can't use. Don't need any more!
            IrisNevins
            www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: jemiljan<mailto:jemiljan@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:07 AM
            Subject: [Marbling] Re: Very Bad Paper News


            Hi Iris,

            Just today on the Book Arts list, there was a note from Aaron Salik at Talas about a paper that they are carrying, which Jim Tapley tried out and likes it, and I assume that he's doing water color marbling.

            http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=63498<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=63498>

            I hope this solved the problem... for now at least! Due to the demand by photographic conservators for unbuffered materials that won't react to pH-sensitive color emulsions, I hope that this should be kept in production without any changes.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • aaronsalik
            I know many marblers have had difficulty in recent years due to the increase in buffering agents used in commercial papers. About a month ago a customer of
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 16, 2010
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              I know many marblers have had difficulty in recent years due to the increase in buffering agents used in commercial papers.

              About a month ago a customer of ours, James Tapley, asked me if we had anything new for marbling. What came to mind was a paper we just brought in for a completely unrelated application. The paper is our Unbuffered Bond Paper. The paper was originally purposed as an interleaving and envelope paper for archival purposes. It is an 80lb text, ph neutral, 25% cotton paper of high quality, free of any buffering agents.

              However the fact that it is an unbuffered sheet brought it immediately to mind, and I asked james to give it a try. Here's what James had to say:

              ***************************************************
              Hello Aaron!
              I wanted to let you know that the bond marbles beautifully. Sheets can be alumed (the standard one level tbsp per cup water), allowed to dry, and they flatten perfectly for use later. The surface is just the right amount of smooth, not too toothy (which disrupts fine
              lines) and not to hard and shiny, just right. I'm putting a finished sheet in the mail so you can judge for yourself but you should have no fear in recommending it. My only suggestion would be that you specify grain direction for each of the sheet sizes you offer.
              There is a cheaper sulphite drawing paper that Dick Blick offers (Iris Nevins uses it) but it is not near so nice as the bond's surface or wet strength. And while Light Impressions offers the bond at a slightly lower price they don't maintain a stock and customer service is pretty bad.
              So thanks, I'll be ordering some more from you. I prefer a 20" x 26"
              sheet but the offcuts will always come in handy.
              Hope its a grand holiday weekend for you.
              Best,
              James
              ***************************************************

              You can find this product on our website here:
              http://tinyurl.com/2bskfsa

              It is not hard to believe that the paper from Dick Blick turned to one that contains a buffering agent. This is because paper manufacturers are all loading up their papers with calcium carbonate and other additives because it is cheaper than actual pulp. It also makes it "acid-free" so they can market it to a wider audience. However I would certainly question the quality of such paper, as it is not a lignin-free product, with what are most likely poor aging charactoristics.

              Our Unbuffered Bond Paper is certainly more expensive than Dick Blick's sulphite, but it's of a very different level of quality and permanence. It is made to meet Library of Congress specs, and since we are having this made in relatively small quantities it is expensive to do so. Keep in mind that *small* almost insignificant quantities for a paper mill start at 20,000 lbs of paper. That's about 40 pallets of paper, or 200,000 - 32"x40" sheets.

              Regards,
              Aaron Salik

              Talas
              330 Morgan Ave
              Brooklyn, NY 11211
              212-219-0770 Phone
              212-219-0735 Fax
              http://talasonline.com
              http://talasonline.blogspot.com/
            • irisnevins
              Thanks Aaron, I spoke to Jake yesterday and look forward to trying it out. I am hopeful!! From what I was told the Blick was lignin free however, but who
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 16, 2010
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                Thanks Aaron, I spoke to Jake yesterday and look forward to trying it out. I am hopeful!! From what I was told the Blick was lignin free however, but who knows!
                Iris
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: aaronsalik<mailto:aaron@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:53 AM
                Subject: [Marbling] Re: Very Bad Paper News


                I know many marblers have had difficulty in recent years due to the increase in buffering agents used in commercial papers.

                About a month ago a customer of ours, James Tapley, asked me if we had anything new for marbling. What came to mind was a paper we just brought in for a completely unrelated application. The paper is our Unbuffered Bond Paper. The paper was originally purposed as an interleaving and envelope paper for archival purposes. It is an 80lb text, ph neutral, 25% cotton paper of high quality, free of any buffering agents.

                However the fact that it is an unbuffered sheet brought it immediately to mind, and I asked james to give it a try. Here's what James had to say:

                ***************************************************
                Hello Aaron!
                I wanted to let you know that the bond marbles beautifully. Sheets can be alumed (the standard one level tbsp per cup water), allowed to dry, and they flatten perfectly for use later. The surface is just the right amount of smooth, not too toothy (which disrupts fine
                lines) and not to hard and shiny, just right. I'm putting a finished sheet in the mail so you can judge for yourself but you should have no fear in recommending it. My only suggestion would be that you specify grain direction for each of the sheet sizes you offer.
                There is a cheaper sulphite drawing paper that Dick Blick offers (Iris Nevins uses it) but it is not near so nice as the bond's surface or wet strength. And while Light Impressions offers the bond at a slightly lower price they don't maintain a stock and customer service is pretty bad.
                So thanks, I'll be ordering some more from you. I prefer a 20" x 26"
                sheet but the offcuts will always come in handy.
                Hope its a grand holiday weekend for you.
                Best,
                James
                ***************************************************

                You can find this product on our website here:
                http://tinyurl.com/2bskfsa<http://tinyurl.com/2bskfsa>

                It is not hard to believe that the paper from Dick Blick turned to one that contains a buffering agent. This is because paper manufacturers are all loading up their papers with calcium carbonate and other additives because it is cheaper than actual pulp. It also makes it "acid-free" so they can market it to a wider audience. However I would certainly question the quality of such paper, as it is not a lignin-free product, with what are most likely poor aging charactoristics.

                Our Unbuffered Bond Paper is certainly more expensive than Dick Blick's sulphite, but it's of a very different level of quality and permanence. It is made to meet Library of Congress specs, and since we are having this made in relatively small quantities it is expensive to do so. Keep in mind that *small* almost insignificant quantities for a paper mill start at 20,000 lbs of paper. That's about 40 pallets of paper, or 200,000 - 32"x40" sheets.

                Regards,
                Aaron Salik

                Talas
                330 Morgan Ave
                Brooklyn, NY 11211
                212-219-0770 Phone
                212-219-0735 Fax
                http://talasonline.com<http://talasonline.com/>
                http://talasonline.blogspot.com/<http://talasonline.blogspot.com/>



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