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Re: [Marbling] Bingül's response

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  • irisnevins
    Sometimes people are told facts by others, and pass them along, meaning well, but never thinking to check them out. Some end up being true and other just
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 5 5:17 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Sometimes people are told "facts" by others, and pass them along, meaning well, but never thinking to check them out. Some end up being true and other just rumors. I am sure Bingul meant no harm. Perhaps she has not been online again since Feridun responded. Still, I hope she will let us know if we are missing something, or if any older samples of Ebru from Turkey have been found. I certainly hope she was not offended and took this information given, in the wrong way. Feridun is opening dialog only to find out what the sources were, so maybe we can learn something new if indeed there have been new discoveries or old samples. The history of marbling has "changed' numerous times as earlier and earlier examples were discovered, even during the 32 years I have practiced!

      I hear all the time that it originated in Turkey, China, Germany, Victorian England, and am constantly told that my art I have devoted my life to started in Italy, in Venice, I am even told what materials I use and that I couldn't possibly marble the way I do and my technique is all wrong. I have heard everything from how easy it is to how you cannot marble in certain states in the US. I have been told you do it in a bathtub and that no one does it anymore. Thankfully there are those who have researched in depth like Feridun, and the authors of the two major Marbling History books, Phoebe Easton and Richard Wolfe have contributed much. I seem to recall, and can't remember where or in what parts, but didn't the Wolfe and Easton books contradict in some areas?

      The largest part of the problem is that marbling was such a secret art. It still remains a mystery to many. So rumors and false "facts" abound.

      Iris Nevins
      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: oguzhan t<mailto:uygur13@...>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 3:13 PM
      Subject: [Marbling] Bingül's response


      The reason we do not have many homes for the elderly in Turkey,
      is due to our traditional values of revering the elderly people,
      and our nationally mutual compassion for whoever they may be.

      Times are changing but Turkish ethical code in many aspects have not changed yet and therefore I find it very untraditional and impolite for group friend Bingül not to promptly show the courtesy
      to answer highly esteemed (elder) member of Turkish Ebru and international marbling world of artists Mr Feridun Özgören,
      his questions -which are asked in the name of a community,
      to clarify some points about Ebru history which Ms Bingül seems to have announced on public information channels.
      Every serious artist may also be the custodian of his choice of art form and be responsible for knowing the history of that art form.
      In the past group communication I had also brought to mutual attention some rumours about Ebru ,and had the honour of receving Mr Özgören's criticisms and request for my sources of knowledge or better yet the rumours.

      This yahoo group seems to harbour a lot of valuable data on marbling history,and Ebru history,and techniques,and proper choice of materials,
      and answers to questions related to this art form;
      and surprisinly by the best people in their fields Ms Iris Nevins and Ms Krause from Germany to name a few globally respected individuals for their knowledge ,
      and membership range from internationally acknowledged masters to newcomers to the floating colors world.

      On behalf of the Turkish members to this group,
      we owe a proper and academically acknowledged information
      on traditional Turkish Ebru,
      and Mr Özgören's questions simply help us
      to stay on this righteous path
      to keep the facts clear from fictive information.

      If Ms Bingül feels too generous on spreading word on Ebru,
      then she will be responsible to answer questions which may arise from her attempts in the name of Ebru,
      which in itself is an honourable feat.
      wishing her success in promoting Turkish Ebru,
      also promptness to answer questions that she bring to surface and alertness to still the thirst of those genuinely dedicated lovers of Ebru on a very valuable cultural exchange platform such as this one.
      we remain,
      EBRU-PA ebru artists on the european side of Istanbul.

      post scriptum :Due to Islamic fasting period of Ramadan,
      Istanbul is drowning in traditional Turkish art exhibitions,demonstrations and seminars scattered all over Istanbul,
      on the major spots attracting the innocent crowds.
      Sultanahmet,Taksim,Beyazýt,Üsküdar, are the announced locations.
      www.istanbul2010.org<http://www.istanbul2010.org/>
      The european culture capital Istanbul 2010 project,
      established a website for the traditional masters living in Istanbul,
      though I am listed in the glass arts section and pinned on the map of Istanbul,
      there are also an abundance of Istanbul Ebru artist and craftspeople marked on the map of Istanbul.
      for your information.



      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "Feridun Ozgoren" <feridun.ozgoren@...> wrote:
      >
      > Greetings to all,
      > Thanks to Bingul Sevimli for sending her video of marbling.
      > There are, however, few points made during this video session which I find
      > questionable.
      > She states that the "earliest recorded examples of ebru dated back to 15th
      > century in Turkey. As a student of the history of ebru I have also been
      > studying the history of this art but I did not come across any 15th century
      > ebru which was made in Turkey. I am totally aware of such claims which base
      > on no actual data, no evidence and no sample. She mentions that she
      > "researched this form of art thoroughly, the history, the technique and
      > various styles of art of ecru". In that case it would be very profitable for
      > all of us to become aware of the evidence of this claim. Can Mrs. Seville
      > kindly provides us with the source of this important information?.
      >
      > Mrs. Seville also explains that "dyes used in ecru created from various
      > organic substances like soil (earth), white lead, indigo, red ochre
      > (earth)." Only "organic" material in this list is Indigo. Colorants
      > obtained from earth, like red ochre are inorganic mineral pigments and,
      > white lead is a man made inorganic pigment.
      >
      > Best wishes to all,
      > Feridun Ozgoren
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      > Of bingul
      > Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:10 AM
      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: [Marbling] Bingul's video
      >
      >
      >
      > TV Show (Marbling)
      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txkflh0ehcI<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txkflh0ehcI>
      >
      > You have a good day,
      >
      > Bingul Sevimli | New Jersey
      > bingulsevimli@... <mailto:bingulsevimli%40ebruartusa.us<mailto:bingulsevimli%40ebruartusa.us>>
      >
      > wwww.ebruartusa.us
      >




      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • nihan buyuksezer
      Hi, History of Marbling. Turkish (Alternative pattern name(s): Spot, Stone, Agate, Stein, Achat, Caillouté Simple) Wolfe and Muira: Turkish Historically,
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 6 10:09 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi,
        History of Marbling.


        Turkish (Alternative pattern name(s): Spot, Stone, Agate, Stein, Achat,
        Caillouté Simple)
        Wolfe and Muira: Turkish
        Historically, this is the oldest of Western marbled patterns and dates back to
        as early as the middle part of the 15th century. This pattern is created when
        one or more colors are thrown onto the surface of the bath using a marbling
        brush. The first colors thrown tend to constrict as other follow and become the
        ‘vein’ colors for the latter thrown inks.
        (Wolfe plate XXVI 44-48 ; Muira pgs 47-49)
        » View Examples
        ESSAY :Unıversıty of Washingthon Digital Libraries

        The origins of marbling are often disputed, with its early development claimed
        by several countries: China, Japan and the countries of the Middle East. Albert
        Haemmerle suggests that art forms resembling marbling were seen in China as
        early as the Ming Dynasty (14th-17th Century). Chinese professor Tsuen-hsuin
        Tsien, who has studied the subject extensively, also believes that the earliest
        style of marbling originates from the Chinese. But another form of marbling,
        preceding the Chinese, is Suminagashi, a style attributed to the Japanese as
        early as the 10th century. Centuries later, marbling of a related nature,
        emerged as an art form in Turkey (known as Ebrû) and in Persian countries (known
        as Abri) in the 15th century. Travelers to these areas of the world took note of
        this art form and began importing marbled paper into Europe sometime around
        1600. Europeans then tried to reproduce these amazing designs. Each time the art
        of marbling captivated a new artist, the work would take on a new appearance,
        tempered by cultural identity, availability of materials and the artist's
        creativity.
        Also lots of sources in Turkish Libraries...
        Best regards,


        ________________________________
        From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, September 6, 2010 3:17:41 AM
        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Bingül's response


        Sometimes people are told "facts" by others, and pass them along, meaning well,
        but never thinking to check them out. Some end up being true and other just
        rumors. I am sure Bingul meant no harm. Perhaps she has not been online again
        since Feridun responded. Still, I hope she will let us know if we are missing
        something, or if any older samples of Ebru from Turkey have been found. I
        certainly hope she was not offended and took this information given, in the
        wrong way. Feridun is opening dialog only to find out what the sources were, so
        maybe we can learn something new if indeed there have been new discoveries or
        old samples. The history of marbling has "changed' numerous times as earlier and
        earlier examples were discovered, even during the 32 years I have practiced!


        I hear all the time that it originated in Turkey, China, Germany, Victorian
        England, and am constantly told that my art I have devoted my life to started in
        Italy, in Venice, I am even told what materials I use and that I couldn't
        possibly marble the way I do and my technique is all wrong. I have heard
        everything from how easy it is to how you cannot marble in certain states in the
        US. I have been told you do it in a bathtub and that no one does it anymore.
        Thankfully there are those who have researched in depth like Feridun, and the
        authors of the two major Marbling History books, Phoebe Easton and Richard Wolfe
        have contributed much. I seem to recall, and can't remember where or in what
        parts, but didn't the Wolfe and Easton books contradict in some areas?


        The largest part of the problem is that marbling was such a secret art. It still
        remains a mystery to many. So rumors and false "facts" abound.

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: oguzhan t<mailto:uygur13@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 3:13 PM
        Subject: [Marbling] Bingül's response

        The reason we do not have many homes for the elderly in Turkey,
        is due to our traditional values of revering the elderly people,
        and our nationally mutual compassion for whoever they may be.

        Times are changing but Turkish ethical code in many aspects have not changed
        yet and therefore I find it very untraditional and impolite for group friend
        Bingül not to promptly show the courtesy
        to answer highly esteemed (elder) member of Turkish Ebru and international
        marbling world of artists Mr Feridun Özgören,
        his questions -which are asked in the name of a community,
        to clarify some points about Ebru history which Ms Bingül seems to have
        announced on public information channels.
        Every serious artist may also be the custodian of his choice of art form and be
        responsible for knowing the history of that art form.
        In the past group communication I had also brought to mutual attention some
        rumours about Ebru ,and had the honour of receving Mr Özgören's criticisms and
        request for my sources of knowledge or better yet the rumours.

        This yahoo group seems to harbour a lot of valuable data on marbling history,and
        Ebru history,and techniques,and proper choice of materials,
        and answers to questions related to this art form;
        and surprisinly by the best people in their fields Ms Iris Nevins and Ms Krause
        from Germany to name a few globally respected individuals for their knowledge ,
        and membership range from internationally acknowledged masters to newcomers to
        the floating colors world.

        On behalf of the Turkish members to this group,
        we owe a proper and academically acknowledged information
        on traditional Turkish Ebru,
        and Mr Özgören's questions simply help us
        to stay on this righteous path
        to keep the facts clear from fictive information.

        If Ms Bingül feels too generous on spreading word on Ebru,
        then she will be responsible to answer questions which may arise from her
        attempts in the name of Ebru,
        which in itself is an honourable feat.
        wishing her success in promoting Turkish Ebru,
        also promptness to answer questions that she bring to surface and alertness to
        still the thirst of those genuinely dedicated lovers of Ebru on a very valuable
        cultural exchange platform such as this one.
        we remain,
        EBRU-PA ebru artists on the european side of Istanbul.

        post scriptum :Due to Islamic fasting period of Ramadan,
        Istanbul is drowning in traditional Turkish art exhibitions,demonstrations and
        seminars scattered all over Istanbul,
        on the major spots attracting the innocent crowds.
        Sultanahmet,Taksim,Beyazýt,Üsküdar, are the announced locations.
        www.istanbul2010.org<http://www.istanbul2010.org/>
        The european culture capital Istanbul 2010 project,
        established a website for the traditional masters living in Istanbul,
        though I am listed in the glass arts section and pinned on the map of
        Istanbul,
        there are also an abundance of Istanbul Ebru artist and craftspeople marked on
        the map of Istanbul.
        for your information.

        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "Feridun
        Ozgoren" <feridun.ozgoren@...> wrote:
        >
        > Greetings to all,
        > Thanks to Bingul Sevimli for sending her video of marbling.
        > There are, however, few points made during this video session which I find
        > questionable.
        > She states that the "earliest recorded examples of ebru dated back to 15th
        > century in Turkey. As a student of the history of ebru I have also been
        > studying the history of this art but I did not come across any 15th century
        > ebru which was made in Turkey. I am totally aware of such claims which base
        > on no actual data, no evidence and no sample. She mentions that she
        > "researched this form of art thoroughly, the history, the technique and
        > various styles of art of ecru". In that case it would be very profitable for
        > all of us to become aware of the evidence of this claim. Can Mrs. Seville
        > kindly provides us with the source of this important information?.
        >
        > Mrs. Seville also explains that "dyes used in ecru created from various
        > organic substances like soil (earth), white lead, indigo, red ochre
        > (earth)." Only "organic" material in this list is Indigo. Colorants
        > obtained from earth, like red ochre are inorganic mineral pigments and,
        > white lead is a man made inorganic pigment.
        >
        > Best wishes to all,
        > Feridun Ozgoren
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        >[mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        > Of bingul
        > Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:10 AM
        > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: [Marbling] Bingul's video
        >
        >
        >
        > TV Show (Marbling)
        >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txkflh0ehcI<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txkflh0ehcI>
        >>
        >
        >
        > You have a good day,
        >
        > Bingul Sevimli | New Jersey
        > bingulsevimli@...
        ><mailto:bingulsevimli%40ebruartusa.us<mailto:bingulsevimli%40ebruartusa.us>>
        >
        >
        > wwww.ebruartusa.us
        >

        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Feridun Ozgoren
        Greetings, Thanks to Oğuzhan and Iris for their comments on this issue. Thanks also for Ms. Büyüksezer’s comments on the history of marbling, on which I
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 9 7:12 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Greetings,
          Thanks to Oğuzhan and Iris for their comments on this issue.
          Thanks also for Ms. Büyüksezer’s comments on the history of marbling, on which I would like to make a few comments.
          On page 47 of his book entitled “The Art of Marbled Paper, Marbled Patterns and How to Make Them,” Mr. Miura describes the “Turkish marble” pattern. The names he provides do not exist in the Turkish ebru vocabulary; one never hears or reads of a design called “Taş Ebrusu” (Stone Marble).
          It is my understanding that Mr. Miura uses the term “Turkish Marble” to describe any pattern which resembles what is called “Battal ebru” in Turkish. However, another problem arises. The samples Mr. Miura provides on pages 47-49 are not Turkish Battal ebrus, instead, they are “veined” patterns. To my knowledge Turkish marblers did not use any of the ingredients (wine sprits, soap etc.) neccessary to produce these veined patterns.
          He asserts the pattern originated in the 15th century: however, he does not give any evidence to support his assertion, or any source for this information. In any case, they do not resemble the documented mid 16th century marbled papers made in Turkey. We also have no knowledge of any 15th century marbled paper made in Turkey.
          On page 13, Miura mentions F.R. Martin and H. Taherzade Behzad’s works’ on history of marbling . According to Miura "F.R.Martin describes marbled pictures created around 1500 AD”. We know however that Martin did not provide any evidence for this statement. H. Taherzade Behzad’s statement on the other hand is as follows; “Marbleized paper, called abri in Persia or ‘shadow paper’ has been used from at least the fifteenth century for the borders of pages, for the inside of bookbindings and sometimes for the page itself, the calligrapher choosing this as the background for his fine writing.” Unfortunatly Mr. Taherzade does not give any information or provide any samples to substantiate his assertion either.
          The images presented in Richard J. Wolf's book (Plate XXVI, 44-48) are "The simpler patterns shown on Plate XXVI are indicative of the designs that were produced in Germany from about the 1730's on...." (p.182). Here Wolf simply refers to the use of battal like patterns in Germany starting in the early 18th century, and not the creation of them in the 15th century in Turkey.
          As for the issue of the earliest ebrus; Richard J. Wolf states “There are reports, however, that a form of our modern marbling was being practised in Turkestan in the thirteenth century and in Samarkand, Herat, and other regions east of Persia in the early decades of the fourteenth century". (p.8). Mr. Wolf does not identify what reports he is referring to. In a related footnote (note 33) he again states that "references to marbling in areas east of Persia at a very early time appear in several works on Persian art" but again he does not provide any references.
          Wolf's subsequent discussion in note 33 shows that he has been drawing information from books by Albert Haemmerle, Mehmet Ali Kağıtçı, and Uğur Derman. All of these authors, like Wolf himself, do not substantiate their claims for the dates and/or places regarding the earliest ebrus. For example, Wolfe says (p. 8) "In any event, ebru came to serve several important functions in the Selçuk and Ottoman Empires". Here Mr. Wolf is basing his information about ebru having been made in the Selçuk Empire on Mehmet Ali Kağıtçı’s article entitled “Turkish Marbling.” Mr. Kağıtçı states that “The technique of Akkase-Ebru (clear reserve) was applied upon request of the Sultan of Khorasan, Hüsseyin Baykara (1438-1506 AD) in Samarkand and Herad, and this technique was then improved by the Seljukide and Ottoman Persians."
          Since the Selçuk Empire had ceased to exist in the very begining of the 14th century Kağıtçı's account can not be correct. Hüseyin Baykara's reign post-dates the Selçuk Empire, the earlier Selçuks would not have been improving upon art forms of Sultan Husseyin's later era. Mr. Kağıtçı also fails to provide any evidence, or any historical marbling samples, for his assertions. Mr.Wolf is using Kağıtçı's account as a source, but a simple check on the dates of the Selçuk Empire would have revealed the error made by Kağıtçı.
          As Ms. Büyüksezer writes, “Albert Haemmerle suggests that art forms resembling marbling were seen in China as early as the Ming Dynasty (14th-17th Century)”. By making this assertion without providing any written source or any historical samples as evidence, Mr. Haemmerle adds just another rumor to the ocean of rumors about the history of marbling.
          Ms. Büyüksezer also writes "Chinese professor Tsuen-hsuin Tsien, who has studied the subject extensively, also believes that the earliest style of marbling originates from the Chinese." Prof. Tsuen-hsuin Tsien indeed supports his statement with a Chinese text, a paragraph from Wen Fan Si Pu, a book written by Su Yijian (953-996 AD). Papers decorated with the method this paragraph describes are called liu sha jian which means "drifting sand" or "flowing sand." Prof. Tsuen-hsuin Tsien concludes by saying "that is how marbled paper was done." I find this huge leap from liu sha jian to marbled paper quite imaginative.
          I am aware of the scholarly efforts to establish a linear model for marbling history starting with liu sha jian in China, then Suminagashi in Japan, following with ebru in Turkestan, İran, and Turkey; and finally arriving in Europe and America as marbling. This linear model is not based on any datable sample of works or reliable evidence for linking liu sha jian to suminagashi, and suminagashi to ebru and marbling as we know it.
          It is easy to see that marbling did not start in Europe, as some suggested; and it is easy to say that we do not exactly know when and where marbling emerged. I am seriously disappointed by the efforts of many scholars and authors to fit the history of marbling into a model they hope is true but for which they cannot provide any evidence.
          History written without evidence is merely a story.
          Best wishes to all,
          Feridun Özgören




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • irisnevins
          Thanks for all this.... maybe we will never know fully, it would be nice to have all the information, but we can only go by the examples or written accounts we
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 9 8:10 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks for all this.... maybe we will never know fully, it would be nice to have all the information, but we can only go by the examples or written accounts we do have.
            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 10:12 PM
            Subject: [Marbling] Few points.




            Greetings,
            Thanks to Oğuzhan and Iris for their comments on this issue.
            Thanks also for Ms. Büyüksezer’s comments on the history of marbling, on which I would like to make a few comments.
            On page 47 of his book entitled “The Art of Marbled Paper, Marbled Patterns and How to Make Them,” Mr. Miura describes the “Turkish marble” pattern. The names he provides do not exist in the Turkish ebru vocabulary; one never hears or reads of a design called “Taş Ebrusu” (Stone Marble).
            It is my understanding that Mr. Miura uses the term “Turkish Marble” to describe any pattern which resembles what is called “Battal ebru” in Turkish. However, another problem arises. The samples Mr. Miura provides on pages 47-49 are not Turkish Battal ebrus, instead, they are “veined” patterns. To my knowledge Turkish marblers did not use any of the ingredients (wine sprits, soap etc.) neccessary to produce these veined patterns.
            He asserts the pattern originated in the 15th century: however, he does not give any evidence to support his assertion, or any source for this information. In any case, they do not resemble the documented mid 16th century marbled papers made in Turkey. We also have no knowledge of any 15th century marbled paper made in Turkey.
            On page 13, Miura mentions F.R. Martin and H. Taherzade Behzad’s works’ on history of marbling . According to Miura "F.R.Martin describes marbled pictures created around 1500 AD”. We know however that Martin did not provide any evidence for this statement. H. Taherzade Behzad’s statement on the other hand is as follows; “Marbleized paper, called abri in Persia or ‘shadow paper’ has been used from at least the fifteenth century for the borders of pages, for the inside of bookbindings and sometimes for the page itself, the calligrapher choosing this as the background for his fine writing.” Unfortunatly Mr. Taherzade does not give any information or provide any samples to substantiate his assertion either.
            The images presented in Richard J. Wolf's book (Plate XXVI, 44-48) are "The simpler patterns shown on Plate XXVI are indicative of the designs that were produced in Germany from about the 1730's on...." (p.182). Here Wolf simply refers to the use of battal like patterns in Germany starting in the early 18th century, and not the creation of them in the 15th century in Turkey.
            As for the issue of the earliest ebrus; Richard J. Wolf states “There are reports, however, that a form of our modern marbling was being practised in Turkestan in the thirteenth century and in Samarkand, Herat, and other regions east of Persia in the early decades of the fourteenth century". (p.8). Mr. Wolf does not identify what reports he is referring to. In a related footnote (note 33) he again states that "references to marbling in areas east of Persia at a very early time appear in several works on Persian art" but again he does not provide any references.
            Wolf's subsequent discussion in note 33 shows that he has been drawing information from books by Albert Haemmerle, Mehmet Ali Kağıtçı, and Uğur Derman. All of these authors, like Wolf himself, do not substantiate their claims for the dates and/or places regarding the earliest ebrus. For example, Wolfe says (p. 8) "In any event, ebru came to serve several important functions in the Selçuk and Ottoman Empires". Here Mr. Wolf is basing his information about ebru having been made in the Selçuk Empire on Mehmet Ali Kağıtçı’s article entitled “Turkish Marbling.” Mr. Kağıtçı states that “The technique of Akkase-Ebru (clear reserve) was applied upon request of the Sultan of Khorasan, Hüsseyin Baykara (1438-1506 AD) in Samarkand and Herad, and this technique was then improved by the Seljukide and Ottoman Persians."
            Since the Selçuk Empire had ceased to exist in the very begining of the 14th century Kağıtçı's account can not be correct. Hüseyin Baykara's reign post-dates the Selçuk Empire, the earlier Selçuks would not have been improving upon art forms of Sultan Husseyin's later era. Mr. Kağıtçı also fails to provide any evidence, or any historical marbling samples, for his assertions. Mr.Wolf is using Kağıtçı's account as a source, but a simple check on the dates of the Selçuk Empire would have revealed the error made by Kağıtçı.
            As Ms. Büyüksezer writes, “Albert Haemmerle suggests that art forms resembling marbling were seen in China as early as the Ming Dynasty (14th-17th Century)”. By making this assertion without providing any written source or any historical samples as evidence, Mr. Haemmerle adds just another rumor to the ocean of rumors about the history of marbling.
            Ms. Büyüksezer also writes "Chinese professor Tsuen-hsuin Tsien, who has studied the subject extensively, also believes that the earliest style of marbling originates from the Chinese." Prof. Tsuen-hsuin Tsien indeed supports his statement with a Chinese text, a paragraph from Wen Fan Si Pu, a book written by Su Yijian (953-996 AD). Papers decorated with the method this paragraph describes are called liu sha jian which means "drifting sand" or "flowing sand." Prof. Tsuen-hsuin Tsien concludes by saying "that is how marbled paper was done." I find this huge leap from liu sha jian to marbled paper quite imaginative.
            I am aware of the scholarly efforts to establish a linear model for marbling history starting with liu sha jian in China, then Suminagashi in Japan, following with ebru in Turkestan, İran, and Turkey; and finally arriving in Europe and America as marbling. This linear model is not based on any datable sample of works or reliable evidence for linking liu sha jian to suminagashi, and suminagashi to ebru and marbling as we know it.
            It is easy to see that marbling did not start in Europe, as some suggested; and it is easy to say that we do not exactly know when and where marbling emerged. I am seriously disappointed by the efforts of many scholars and authors to fit the history of marbling into a model they hope is true but for which they cannot provide any evidence.
            History written without evidence is merely a story.
            Best wishes to all,
            Feridun Özgören




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          • nihan buyuksezer
            Thank you. I only wanted to mention some sourches which agree on the 15.th century but ofcourse the details for different patterns can be discussed.
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 10 2:18 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Thank you. I only wanted to mention some sourches which agree on the 15.th
              century but ofcourse the details for different patterns can be discussed.
              Respectfully,
              Nihan Büyüksezer






              ________________________________
              From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, September 10, 2010 6:10:54 AM
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] Few points.


              Thanks for all this.... maybe we will never know fully, it would be nice to have
              all the information, but we can only go by the examples or written accounts we
              do have.

              Iris Nevins
              www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 10:12 PM
              Subject: [Marbling] Few points.

              Greetings,
              Thanks to Oğuzhan and Iris for their comments on this issue.
              Thanks also for Ms. Büyüksezer’s comments on the history of marbling, on which I
              would like to make a few comments.
              On page 47 of his book entitled “The Art of Marbled Paper, Marbled Patterns and
              How to Make Them,” Mr. Miura describes the “Turkish marble” pattern. The
              names he provides do not exist in the Turkish ebru vocabulary; one never hears
              or reads of a design called “Taş Ebrusu” (Stone Marble).

              It is my understanding that Mr. Miura uses the term “Turkish Marble” to describe
              any pattern which resembles what is called “Battal ebru” in Turkish. However,
              another problem arises. The samples Mr. Miura provides on pages 47-49 are not
              Turkish Battal ebrus, instead, they are “veined” patterns. To my knowledge
              Turkish marblers did not use any of the ingredients (wine sprits, soap etc.)
              neccessary to produce these veined patterns.

              He asserts the pattern originated in the 15th century: however, he does not
              give any evidence to support his assertion, or any source for this information.
              In any case, they do not resemble the documented mid 16th century marbled papers
              made in Turkey. We also have no knowledge of any 15th century marbled paper
              made in Turkey.

              On page 13, Miura mentions F.R. Martin and H. Taherzade Behzad’s works’ on
              history of marbling . According to Miura "F.R.Martin describes marbled pictures
              created around 1500 AD”. We know however that Martin did not provide any
              evidence for this statement. H. Taherzade Behzad’s statement on the other hand
              is as follows; “Marbleized paper, called abri in Persia or ‘shadow paper’ has
              been used from at least the fifteenth century for the borders of pages, for the
              inside of bookbindings and sometimes for the page itself, the calligrapher
              choosing this as the background for his fine writing.” Unfortunatly Mr.
              Taherzade does not give any information or provide any samples to substantiate
              his assertion either.
              The images presented in Richard J. Wolf's book (Plate XXVI, 44-48) are "The
              simpler patterns shown on Plate XXVI are indicative of the designs that were
              produced in Germany from about the 1730's on...." (p.182). Here Wolf simply
              refers to the use of battal like patterns in Germany starting in the early 18th
              century, and not the creation of them in the 15th century in Turkey.
              As for the issue of the earliest ebrus; Richard J. Wolf states “There are
              reports, however, that a form of our modern marbling was being practised in
              Turkestan in the thirteenth century and in Samarkand, Herat, and other regions
              east of Persia in the early decades of the fourteenth century". (p.8). Mr. Wolf
              does not identify what reports he is referring to. In a related footnote (note
              33) he again states that "references to marbling in areas east of Persia at a
              very early time appear in several works on Persian art" but again he does not
              provide any references.
              Wolf's subsequent discussion in note 33 shows that he has been drawing
              information from books by Albert Haemmerle, Mehmet Ali Kağıtçı, and Uğur Derman.
              All of these authors, like Wolf himself, do not substantiate their claims for
              the dates and/or places regarding the earliest ebrus. For example, Wolfe says
              (p. 8) "In any event, ebru came to serve several important functions in the
              Selçuk and Ottoman Empires". Here Mr. Wolf is basing his information about ebru
              having been made in the Selçuk Empire on Mehmet Ali Kağıtçı’s article entitled
              “Turkish Marbling.” Mr. Kağıtçı states that “The technique of Akkase-Ebru
              (clear reserve) was applied upon request of the Sultan of Khorasan, Hüsseyin
              Baykara (1438-1506 AD) in Samarkand and Herad, and this technique was then
              improved by the Seljukide and Ottoman Persians."
              Since the Selçuk Empire had ceased to exist in the very begining of the 14th
              century Kağıtçı's account can not be correct. Hüseyin Baykara's reign
              post-dates the Selçuk Empire, the earlier Selçuks would not have been improving
              upon art forms of Sultan Husseyin's later era. Mr. Kağıtçı also fails to
              provide any evidence, or any historical marbling samples, for his assertions.
              Mr.Wolf is using Kağıtçı's account as a source, but a simple check on the dates
              of the Selçuk Empire would have revealed the error made by Kağıtçı.

              As Ms. Büyüksezer writes, “Albert Haemmerle suggests that art forms resembling
              marbling were seen in China as early as the Ming Dynasty (14th-17th Century)”.
              By making this assertion without providing any written source or any historical
              samples as evidence, Mr. Haemmerle adds just another rumor to the ocean of
              rumors about the history of marbling.
              Ms. Büyüksezer also writes "Chinese professor Tsuen-hsuin Tsien, who has studied
              the subject extensively, also believes that the earliest style of marbling
              originates from the Chinese." Prof. Tsuen-hsuin Tsien indeed supports his
              statement with a Chinese text, a paragraph from Wen Fan Si Pu, a book written
              by Su Yijian (953-996 AD). Papers decorated with the method this paragraph
              describes are called liu sha jian which means "drifting sand" or "flowing sand."
              Prof. Tsuen-hsuin Tsien concludes by saying "that is how marbled paper was
              done." I find this huge leap from liu sha jian to marbled paper quite
              imaginative.

              I am aware of the scholarly efforts to establish a linear model for marbling
              history starting with liu sha jian in China, then Suminagashi in Japan,
              following with ebru in Turkestan, İran, and Turkey; and finally arriving in
              Europe and America as marbling. This linear model is not based on any datable
              sample of works or reliable evidence for linking liu sha jian to suminagashi,
              and suminagashi to ebru and marbling as we know it.
              It is easy to see that marbling did not start in Europe, as some suggested; and
              it is easy to say that we do not exactly know when and where marbling emerged.
              I am seriously disappointed by the efforts of many scholars and authors to fit
              the history of marbling into a model they hope is true but for which they cannot
              provide any evidence.
              History written without evidence is merely a story.
              Best wishes to all,
              Feridun Özgören


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