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Re: Alum

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  • fontpro@usa.net
    ... In Alternative Photography Alum used to harden gelatin. I m guessing it hardens the Gum Arabic in the watercolor sealing it on the paper. Mac
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 1, 2000
      >Alum fixes the watercolors on the paper. Does anyone on the list know,
      >how alum will do this? Is it a chemical process - Alum reacts with the
      >color or with the paper or with both? Or is there a mechanical process
      >like the alum enlarges the surface of the paper and gives more area for
      >the color to adhesive at the paper?
      >
      >Peter
      >--
      >Peter Baumgartner
      >Atelier f�r Papierdesign
      >Freiburg/Germany
      >http://www.papierdesign.de


      In Alternative Photography Alum used to harden gelatin. I'm guessing it
      hardens the Gum Arabic in the watercolor sealing it on the paper.

      Mac
    • Susanne Krause
      Hello all, it is very difficult to say: alum solution is saturated at such and such a ratio. The ability of the water to solve alum is extremely dependant on
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 31, 2008
        Hello all,

        it is very difficult to say: alum solution is saturated at such and
        such a ratio. The ability of the water to solve alum is extremely
        dependant on the temperature of the water, meaning: boiling water
        solves and holds more alum than luke warm water than water at room's
        temperature than cold water. One degree more or less can make a huge
        difference. In any case, the superfluous alum will sink down as soon
        as the water cools down again.

        Alum solves comparatively easy but, as it is heavier than water, the
        cristals sink down to the bottom of the bottle when the solution is
        over saturated. If you wait an hour or so, i.e. until the solution on
        top of the crystals is totally clear, you can pour it off and what you
        have then is the saturated solution. So you can start easily at 100%
        and thin it down for tests, and sooner or later you will know how
        strong a solution will be needed for which result.

        Susanne Krause
      • irisnevins
        Along those lines, I used to save alum for other days, sometimes for weeks, before I worked as a marbler. One morning I woke up and found about a 1/2
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 31, 2008
          Along those lines, I used to save alum for other days, sometimes for weeks, before I 'worked" as a marbler. One morning I woke up and found about a 1/2" crystal at the bottom of the glass bottle. I still have it SOMEWHERE!! If I find it, I will take a picture of it and post it.
          Iris Nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 7:29 AM
          Subject: [Marbling] Alum


          Hello all,

          it is very difficult to say: alum solution is saturated at such and
          such a ratio. The ability of the water to solve alum is extremely
          dependant on the temperature of the water, meaning: boiling water
          solves and holds more alum than luke warm water than water at room's
          temperature than cold water. One degree more or less can make a huge
          difference. In any case, the superfluous alum will sink down as soon
          as the water cools down again.

          Alum solves comparatively easy but, as it is heavier than water, the
          cristals sink down to the bottom of the bottle when the solution is
          over saturated. If you wait an hour or so, i.e. until the solution on
          top of the crystals is totally clear, you can pour it off and what you
          have then is the saturated solution. So you can start easily at 100%
          and thin it down for tests, and sooner or later you will know how
          strong a solution will be needed for which result.

          Susanne Krause


          ------------------------------------

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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • onemarbler
          I had the same experience, Iris. One day suddenly there was a magnificent pyramid shaped crystal in my alum container. It was beautiful! Now I ll have to look
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 31, 2008
            I had the same experience, Iris. One day suddenly there was a
            magnificent pyramid shaped crystal in my alum container. It was
            beautiful! Now I'll have to look around for it. I know I didn't discard
            it.

            Lavinia

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
            >
            > ... One morning I woke up and found about a 1/2" crystal at the
            bottom of the glass bottle.
          • irisnevins
            It s amazing, they look like a big diamond! If only! I could have retired on that crystal if it were one! So clear too, and I have tried to make it happen
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 31, 2008
              It's amazing, they look like a big diamond! If only! I could have retired on that crystal if it were one! So clear too, and I have tried to make it happen again and it never did. a gift from "the Marbling Gods" I figured! I know I put it in a safe place so not to lose it... and can't remember where!!! Silly!
              Iris Nevins
              www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: onemarbler<mailto:laviniaa@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 10:15 AM
              Subject: [Marbling] Re: Alum [crystal]


              I had the same experience, Iris. One day suddenly there was a
              magnificent pyramid shaped crystal in my alum container. It was
              beautiful! Now I'll have to look around for it. I know I didn't discard
              it.

              Lavinia

              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
              >
              > ... One morning I woke up and found about a 1/2" crystal at the
              bottom of the glass bottle.


              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • D or Jer Guffey
              Hello, Years ago I took a marbling class from Don Guyot and I recall him saying that heat can destroy alum so he advised against using hot water in which to
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 31, 2008
                Hello,

                Years ago I took a marbling class from Don Guyot and I recall him saying that heat can destroy alum so he advised against using hot water in which to desolve it. I've always used regular cold tap water and have had no problems. The water can only absorb so much alum, adding more results in the crytals settling on the bottom. If you use distilled water (which I recall he recommended) then it will keep for a long period of time. Has anyone else heard of not using hot (or boiling) water?

                d. guffey


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Susanne Krause
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 4:29 AM
                Subject: [Marbling] Alum


                Hello all,

                it is very difficult to say: alum solution is saturated at such and
                such a ratio. The ability of the water to solve alum is extremely
                dependant on the temperature of the water, meaning: boiling water
                solves and holds more alum than luke warm water than water at room's
                temperature than cold water. One degree more or less can make a huge
                difference. In any case, the superfluous alum will sink down as soon
                as the water cools down again.

                Alum solves comparatively easy but, as it is heavier than water, the
                cristals sink down to the bottom of the bottle when the solution is
                over saturated. If you wait an hour or so, i.e. until the solution on
                top of the crystals is totally clear, you can pour it off and what you
                have then is the saturated solution. So you can start easily at 100%
                and thin it down for tests, and sooner or later you will know how
                strong a solution will be needed for which result.

                Susanne Krause






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              • gretchen vansant
                Yep I was alittle surprised..I use warm water to desolve and then cold . I heard about/ experience the heat issue. I never iron alumed fabric that also
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 31, 2008
                  Yep I was alittle surprised..I use warm water to desolve and then cold . I heard about/ experience the heat issue. I never iron alumed fabric that also comprimises the fabric, I try not to leave it out in the real hot sun after its dried. It is a salt compound/mordum correct,isn't it logical that once dried it crystalizes?

                  --- On Sun, 8/31/08, D or Jer Guffey <dguff@...> wrote:

                  From: D or Jer Guffey <dguff@...>
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Alum
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 9:41 AM






                  Hello,

                  Years ago I took a marbling class from Don Guyot and I recall him saying that heat can destroy alum so he advised against using hot water in which to desolve it. I've always used regular cold tap water and have had no problems. The water can only absorb so much alum, adding more results in the crytals settling on the bottom. If you use distilled water (which I recall he recommended) then it will keep for a long period of time. Has anyone else heard of not using hot (or boiling) water?

                  d. guffey

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Susanne Krause
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroup s.com
                  Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 4:29 AM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Alum

                  Hello all,

                  it is very difficult to say: alum solution is saturated at such and
                  such a ratio. The ability of the water to solve alum is extremely
                  dependant on the temperature of the water, meaning: boiling water
                  solves and holds more alum than luke warm water than water at room's
                  temperature than cold water. One degree more or less can make a huge
                  difference. In any case, the superfluous alum will sink down as soon
                  as the water cools down again.

                  Alum solves comparatively easy but, as it is heavier than water, the
                  cristals sink down to the bottom of the bottle when the solution is
                  over saturated. If you wait an hour or so, i.e. until the solution on
                  top of the crystals is totally clear, you can pour it off and what you
                  have then is the saturated solution. So you can start easily at 100%
                  and thin it down for tests, and sooner or later you will know how
                  strong a solution will be needed for which result.

                  Susanne Krause

                  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

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                  Checked by AVG.
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                • David Graham
                  At any given temperature (above freezing and at or below boiling) there is but a given concentration that alum can achieve before the soution is saturated.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 31, 2008
                    At any given temperature (above freezing and at or below boiling)
                    there is but a given concentration that alum can achieve before the
                    soution is saturated. Addition of more alum will result no more
                    entering the solution. As the temperature falls, more alum will
                    precipate out of the solution. Raise the temperature and more alum
                    can enter solution. At sea level water boils at 212 degrees
                    fahrenheit (100 degrees Celsius). Any solution of any heat stable
                    chemical (including alum) will achieve its maximal solublized
                    concentration under
                    those conditions. The solution is, at 100 Celsius, "saturated" but
                    must be considered "supersaturated" if the intent is to keep the
                    solution at "room temperature" at which temperature the concentration
                    of alum capable of remaining in solution will decrease, resulting in
                    precipitaion of the excess. Thus the "saturated solution" at room
                    temperature contains a lower concentration of alum than does a
                    saturated solution thereof at a higher temperature.

                    At high altitudes water boils at a temperature lower than 100 Celsius.
                    Thus a saturated solution at the point of boiling in Denver,CO is
                    lower than that at the boiling point in Atlantic City, NJ.

                    Again; this ain't rocket science. If you want to compare the efficacy
                    of different concentrations of alum in your
                    own studio, use distilled water to make it and always add enough alum
                    to your stock solution so that some remains undissolved at the bottom.
                    At a given temperature the clear fluid above the undissolved alum
                    will be of constant concentation which you can then dilute to various
                    degrees for testing purposes.

                    Dave in the Couteau of East River, SD

                    On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 11:41 AM, D or Jer Guffey <dguff@...> wrote:
                    > Hello,
                    >
                    > Years ago I took a marbling class from Don Guyot and I recall him saying
                    > that heat can destroy alum so he advised against using hot water in which to
                    > desolve it. I've always used regular cold tap water and have had no
                    > problems. The water can only absorb so much alum, adding more results in the
                    > crytals settling on the bottom. If you use distilled water (which I recall
                    > he recommended) then it will keep for a long period of time. Has anyone else
                    > heard of not using hot (or boiling) water?
                    >
                    > d. guffey
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Susanne Krause
                    > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 4:29 AM
                    > Subject: [Marbling] Alum
                    >
                    > Hello all,
                    >
                    > it is very difficult to say: alum solution is saturated at such and
                    > such a ratio. The ability of the water to solve alum is extremely
                    > dependant on the temperature of the water, meaning: boiling water
                    > solves and holds more alum than luke warm water than water at room's
                    > temperature than cold water. One degree more or less can make a huge
                    > difference. In any case, the superfluous alum will sink down as soon
                    > as the water cools down again.
                    >
                    > Alum solves comparatively easy but, as it is heavier than water, the
                    > cristals sink down to the bottom of the bottle when the solution is
                    > over saturated. If you wait an hour or so, i.e. until the solution on
                    > top of the crystals is totally clear, you can pour it off and what you
                    > have then is the saturated solution. So you can start easily at 100%
                    > and thin it down for tests, and sooner or later you will know how
                    > strong a solution will be needed for which result.
                    >
                    > Susanne Krause
                  • irisnevins
                    The longer I hand around marbling and marblers, there are so many different right and wrong ways for everything, and even those constantly change. It is really
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 31, 2008
                      The longer I hand around marbling and marblers, there are so many different right and wrong ways for everything, and even those constantly change. It is really the big challenge in marbling, changes. If things always stayed the same many more people would marble, and personally I would have even MORE hair than I do now...luckily I was given tons of hair at birth because otherwise I'd be bald now for tearing it out over trying to figure marbling out for so many years!

                      My crystal, too, it came in winter. I may try to grow one again.
                      Iris Nevins
                      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: D or Jer Guffey<mailto:dguff@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 12:41 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Alum


                      Hello,

                      Years ago I took a marbling class from Don Guyot and I recall him saying that heat can destroy alum so he advised against using hot water in which to desolve it. I've always used regular cold tap water and have had no problems. The water can only absorb so much alum, adding more results in the crytals settling on the bottom. If you use distilled water (which I recall he recommended) then it will keep for a long period of time. Has anyone else heard of not using hot (or boiling) water?

                      d. guffey


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Susanne Krause
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 4:29 AM
                      Subject: [Marbling] Alum


                      Hello all,

                      it is very difficult to say: alum solution is saturated at such and
                      such a ratio. The ability of the water to solve alum is extremely
                      dependant on the temperature of the water, meaning: boiling water
                      solves and holds more alum than luke warm water than water at room's
                      temperature than cold water. One degree more or less can make a huge
                      difference. In any case, the superfluous alum will sink down as soon
                      as the water cools down again.

                      Alum solves comparatively easy but, as it is heavier than water, the
                      cristals sink down to the bottom of the bottle when the solution is
                      over saturated. If you wait an hour or so, i.e. until the solution on
                      top of the crystals is totally clear, you can pour it off and what you
                      have then is the saturated solution. So you can start easily at 100%
                      and thin it down for tests, and sooner or later you will know how
                      strong a solution will be needed for which result.

                      Susanne Krause






                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG.
                      Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1643 - Release Date: 8/30/2008 5:18 PM


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                    • Marmolados.com.ar
                      Hi! jaj It´s happens to me a couple of times too, but one crystal was awesome... And I read once that you can make it on purpose taking one little cristal of
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 31, 2008
                        Hi! jaj It´s happens to me a couple of times too, but one crystal was awesome... And I read once that you can make it on purpose taking one little cristal of alum, and hanging up with a thread of cotton or similar into an oversaturated solution of alum (that is called seeding) and this little cristal will grow wired... I never do it this but I gonna make it some day =)

                        David Maisterra
                        http://www.marmolados.com.ar/


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: irisnevins
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 11:24 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Alum [crystal]


                        It's amazing, they look like a big diamond! If only! I could have retired on that crystal if it were one! So clear too, and I have tried to make it happen again and it never did. a gift from "the Marbling Gods" I figured! I know I put it in a safe place so not to lose it... and can't remember where!!! Silly!
                        Iris Nevins
                        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: onemarbler<mailto:laviniaa@...>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 10:15 AM
                        Subject: [Marbling] Re: Alum [crystal]

                        I had the same experience, Iris. One day suddenly there was a
                        magnificent pyramid shaped crystal in my alum container. It was
                        beautiful! Now I'll have to look around for it. I know I didn't discard
                        it.

                        Lavinia

                        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > ... One morning I woke up and found about a 1/2" crystal at the
                        bottom of the glass bottle.

                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • teaweave
                        Hi I am new to the group and new to marbling. In fact I haven t done any yet at all. I just mixed some Alum according to the directions which came with it -
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 11, 2011
                          Hi I am new to the group and new to marbling. In fact I haven't done any yet at all. I just mixed some Alum according to the directions which came with it - which was 1 1/4 tsp to 1 cup of water. Then I decided to search on this list and I find amounts up to 2 or 3 TBL. being recommended. What should I start with? I have a variety of papers I planned to experiment with. I am using acrylics.
                          Forest
                        • irisnevins
                          Sometimes that amount of alum works. I find you can get away with less sometimes in cold weather. I use a TBS. per cup as do most people. Iris Nevins
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 11, 2011
                            Sometimes that amount of alum works. I find you can get away with less sometimes in cold weather. I use a TBS. per cup as do most people.
                            Iris Nevins
                            www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: teaweave<mailto:weaver@...>
                            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 7:32 PM
                            Subject: [Marbling] Alum


                            Hi I am new to the group and new to marbling. In fact I haven't done any yet at all. I just mixed some Alum according to the directions which came with it - which was 1 1/4 tsp to 1 cup of water. Then I decided to search on this list and I find amounts up to 2 or 3 TBL. being recommended. What should I start with? I have a variety of papers I planned to experiment with. I am using acrylics.
                            Forest



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