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Proportions of Gum Tragacanth and Rabbit Skin Glue for paint binder

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  • zozo7bra
    Hi all, Maybe Iris, John or Diane Maurer can help me here. I think I am on the right track but I find it best to confirm. What are the proportion of Gum
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 30, 2010
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      Hi all,

      Maybe Iris, John or Diane Maurer can help me here. I think I am on the right track but I find it best to confirm.

      What are the proportion of Gum Tragacanth and rabbit Skin Glue to make the pigment binder?

      I did 1 part gum + 1 part glue and 4 parts water, the solution seems a bit to liquid.

      I think I added too much water.

      Any help will be appreciated.

      Also, does anyone know which library may have a copy of Hafner's book. I would like to at least look at his formulas and the book.

      Thanks all, and Happy weekend.
      momo
    • John Goode
      Hi Momo Maybe let the paint sit a day or two... use distilled water. What pigments? Carrageenan or MC? John ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 30, 2010
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        Hi Momo
        Maybe let the paint sit a day or two...
        use distilled water.
        What pigments?
        Carrageenan or MC?
        John

        On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 5:18 PM, zozo7bra <momora@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Hi all,
        >
        > Maybe Iris, John or Diane Maurer can help me here. I think I am on the
        > right track but I find it best to confirm.
        >
        > What are the proportion of Gum Tragacanth and rabbit Skin Glue to make the
        > pigment binder?
        >
        > I did 1 part gum + 1 part glue and 4 parts water, the solution seems a bit
        > to liquid.
        >
        > I think I added too much water.
        >
        > Any help will be appreciated.
        >
        > Also, does anyone know which library may have a copy of Hafner's book. I
        > would like to at least look at his formulas and the book.
        >
        > Thanks all, and Happy weekend.
        > momo
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • dguff
        I have a facsimile copy of Hafner s Progress of Marbling Art which was reproduced in 1989 from a copy of the original belonging to Phoebe Jane Easton. On
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 30, 2010
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          I have a facsimile copy of Hafner's "Progress of Marbling Art" which was reproduced in 1989 from a copy of the original belonging to Phoebe Jane Easton.

          On page 89 he writes "Take 4-6 of an ounce of gum tragacanth let it swell in 1 pint of water and dissolve fully by boiling. In this way we obtain a glutinous mass, which is mixed by stirring with a thick solution of gum-arabic. This mixture is used to unite the particles of the body of mineral colors." [note: I copied it exactly as written, and I don't know what 4-6 of an ounce refers to]

          He then goes on for 3 pages describing how to grind the colors. (prior to this he describes the difference between mineral colors and lake colors). "If mineral color, add a piece of the glutinous matter the size of a nut, if on the contrary, we have a lake color, the addition of water and gall is fully sufficient."

          The chapter ends with his comment "It is easily explainable, that the best results must be obtained with such a carefully and excellently prepared color, I, therefore recommend to my fellow marblers, the marbling colors manufactured by me."

          As for getting an original copy of this book, perhaps a university library would be your best source.

          d. guffey





          ----- Original Message -----
          From: zozo7bra
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 3:18 PM
          Subject: [Marbling] Proportions of Gum Tragacanth and Rabbit Skin Glue for paint binder



          Hi all,

          Maybe Iris, John or Diane Maurer can help me here. I think I am on the right track but I find it best to confirm.

          What are the proportion of Gum Tragacanth and rabbit Skin Glue to make the pigment binder?

          I did 1 part gum + 1 part glue and 4 parts water, the solution seems a bit to liquid.

          I think I added too much water.

          Any help will be appreciated.

          Also, does anyone know which library may have a copy of Hafner's book. I would like to at least look at his formulas and the book.

          Thanks all, and Happy weekend.
          momo






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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
          Hikmet Barutcugil, in The Dream of Water, does not mention any binder added to the pigments. That corresponds with what I saw when I saw him at work. But then,
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 31, 2010
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            Hikmet Barutcugil, in The Dream of Water, does not mention any binder added to the pigments. That corresponds with what I saw when I saw him at work. But then, he marbles in the traditional Turkish way on tragacantha. That may make a difference.

            Anyone who wants to find the book should ask in their library not for Hafner, but for Halfer (Josef).

            Susanne Krause
          • zozo7bra
            Hi Suzanne, When I was studying in Turkey a couple of years ago, we made the marbling paints with natural oxide pigments, regular water and no binders. The
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 31, 2010
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              Hi Suzanne,

              When I was studying in Turkey a couple of years ago, we made the marbling paints with natural oxide pigments, regular water and no binders. The paper was not alumed. The papers came out beautifully marbling on a size of Gum Tragacanth.

              When I returned to the states, with the same oxide pigments (oxit) and tap water, it was a bit of a disaster. (I has only used a small bit of the pigments purchased in Turkey. I did not alum the papers, and I was using a carrageenan sized. The results were a bit better when I alumed the paper.

              I tried with gum arabic binder, results are better, but not the quality of the Turkish colors with tap water and plain paper in Turkey.

              I am sure I read somewhere and on this forum that a mixture of gum tragacanth and hide glue. I will keep trying. I have enough pigment to try, but I do not want to waste a bunch before arriving at a pleasant result.

              Also, next year when I go back to Turkey I will come back with enough Tragacanth to marble for a while, the stuff is incredible. I will also get their pigments.

              Thanks Suzanne. Any new book of yours on the horizon?
              momo
              momora(at)email.com

              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hikmet Barutcugil, in The Dream of Water, does not mention any binder added to the pigments. That corresponds with what I saw when I saw him at work. But then, he marbles in the traditional Turkish way on tragacantha. That may make a difference.
              >
              > Anyone who wants to find the book should ask in their library not for Hafner, but for Halfer (Josef).
              >
              > Susanne Krause
              >
            • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
              Momo, tragacantha is used also in the food and textile industries and for pharmaceutical purposes, maybe you could find a source there. Plus, find out what
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 1, 2010
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                Momo, tragacantha is used also in the food and textile industries and for pharmaceutical purposes, maybe you could find a source there. Plus, find out what Kremer Pigments has, they sell tragacantha in Germany but I don't now about the USA branch.

                As to books, I have published a new one in spring (written by Marianne Moll, about the sensational resist papers the Swiss bookbinder and teacher Emil Kretz made in the 1940ies and -60ies) and am currently working on a german edition of Dream of Water. In prepararion: a dictionary of decorated papers in 5 languages and a revised and extended edition of one of the best how-tos in German, written 20 years ago by Marianne Moll and now badly in need of a rejuvenation.

                Susanne Krause
              • michelle kaye
                Hi, I live in the UK and we use it for thickening the icing on cake decorations for flowers etc.  You can find it at most cake suppliers, ie. the ones that do
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 2, 2010
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                  Hi, I live in the UK and we use it for thickening the icing on cake decorations for flowers etc.  You can find it at most cake suppliers, ie. the ones that do really fancy ones like Christmas cakes, I bought some from ebay last week a huge tub for 8.00 british pounds, look at cake decorations etc.  Good luck.  I havnt used it yet as I am a begginer

                  --- On Sun, 1/8/10, hamburgerbuntpapier_de <studio@...> wrote:


                  From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de <studio@...>
                  Subject: [Marbling] Gum Tragacanth
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, 1 August, 2010, 9:13


                   



                  Momo, tragacantha is used also in the food and textile industries and for pharmaceutical purposes, maybe you could find a source there. Plus, find out what Kremer Pigments has, they sell tragacantha in Germany but I don't now about the USA branch.

                  As to books, I have published a new one in spring (written by Marianne Moll, about the sensational resist papers the Swiss bookbinder and teacher Emil Kretz made in the 1940ies and -60ies) and am currently working on a german edition of Dream of Water. In prepararion: a dictionary of decorated papers in 5 languages and a revised and extended edition of one of the best how-tos in German, written 20 years ago by Marianne Moll and now badly in need of a rejuvenation.

                  Susanne Krause











                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • michelle kaye
                  Hi, Im new to marbling and just got back from Turkey I was amazed and want to do it her, I have located tragacanthe from a cake decorator they use it to make
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 2, 2010
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                    Hi, Im new to marbling and just got back from Turkey I was amazed and want to do it her, I have located tragacanthe from a cake decorator they use it to make petals etc.  I bouth mine from Ebay really cheap.. Please could you tell me the amount and method of mixing etc so that I can try my first batch..  I am in the UK and I need a sourced for the paints, could you help me here also.
                    Thank you soo much.

                    --- On Sat, 31/7/10, zozo7bra <momora@...> wrote:


                    From: zozo7bra <momora@...>
                    Subject: [Marbling] Re: Proportions of Gum Tragacanth and Rabbit Skin Glue for paint binder
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Saturday, 31 July, 2010, 21:19


                     



                    Hi Suzanne,

                    When I was studying in Turkey a couple of years ago, we made the marbling paints with natural oxide pigments, regular water and no binders. The paper was not alumed. The papers came out beautifully marbling on a size of Gum Tragacanth.

                    When I returned to the states, with the same oxide pigments (oxit) and tap water, it was a bit of a disaster. (I has only used a small bit of the pigments purchased in Turkey. I did not alum the papers, and I was using a carrageenan sized. The results were a bit better when I alumed the paper.

                    I tried with gum arabic binder, results are better, but not the quality of the Turkish colors with tap water and plain paper in Turkey.

                    I am sure I read somewhere and on this forum that a mixture of gum tragacanth and hide glue. I will keep trying. I have enough pigment to try, but I do not want to waste a bunch before arriving at a pleasant result.

                    Also, next year when I go back to Turkey I will come back with enough Tragacanth to marble for a while, the stuff is incredible. I will also get their pigments.

                    Thanks Suzanne. Any new book of yours on the horizon?
                    momo
                    momora(at)email.com

                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hikmet Barutcugil, in The Dream of Water, does not mention any binder added to the pigments. That corresponds with what I saw when I saw him at work. But then, he marbles in the traditional Turkish way on tragacantha. That may make a difference.
                    >
                    > Anyone who wants to find the book should ask in their library not for Hafner, but for Halfer (Josef).
                    >
                    > Susanne Krause
                    >











                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • E. Albertine
                    great tip. thanks. Best Regards, Elizabeth http://ecollage.wordpress.com I have not failed. I ve just found 10,000 ways that won t work. — Thomas Edison
                    Message 9 of 9 , Aug 2, 2010
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                      great tip. thanks.

                      Best Regards, Elizabeth
                      http://ecollage.wordpress.com

                      I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. — Thomas Edison





                      ________________________________
                      From: michelle kaye <soltice13@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Mon, August 2, 2010 12:24:27 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Gum Tragacanth


                      Hi, I live in the UK and we use it for thickening the icing on cake decorations
                      for flowers etc. You can find it at most cake suppliers, ie. the ones that do
                      really fancy ones like Christmas cakes,




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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