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Re: new source for mc -3rd try

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  • jehannettedelille
    I m a total N00b in marbling, but an experienced illuminator...so am familiar with the watercolor pigment theory...will my home-made gum arabic based pigments
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 10, 2009
      I'm a total N00b in marbling, but an experienced illuminator...so am familiar with the watercolor pigment theory...will my home-made gum arabic based pigments work? Or are you mostly using the acrylic bases? Please talk more about the paints?

      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
      >
      > Yes, I feel the same way. Some folks are quite happy with the MC, so there is a place for it, but for my work, it's Carrageenan all the way. It just comes out better. I also really don't like saving size, it gets so depressingly dirty. Not inspiring. So I like to have it all clean and fresh when I start a marbling day.
      >
      > I think if newbies first did it the "old" way, they would have an easier time of it. I feel the same about so many of the so-called marbling paints out there. Most seem to give people endless problems. I became a "paint maker" out of sheer frustration, trying so many things, even called "marbling paints" that either failed entirely, or the different colors conflicted with each other. There was one brand where the yellow would expand so much it would sink the other colors. No matter how much gall you put in the others to counteract it. Even gouache, if it worked one time, another time it wouldn't. Marbling paint making is a really quirky thing in reality. You don't just mix a color, most pigments won't work anyway with the process... you have to study their chemical and physical properties, and then find the ones that are compatible with each other. I have been fine tuning the paint formulas for decades and am not done yet! And I stress formulaS with an S, there is just not one all purpose one that works with any pigment. I have to chuckle when someone asks for "the paint formula". It's like asking for "The Cookie Recipe" .... it's different for each pigment. It's is very complex really, and can be confusing.
      >
      > So in addition to using carrageenan for a new marbler, I also suggest using paints that are specifically made for the marbling process, either by an actual marbler who knows what is needed, or a maker who works with a very experienced marbler to test the paints. I know if used as instructed my paints will work, Nancy Morain's (Colophon Book Arts) will work. We are both marblers who use our own materials. I used to make a decent acrylic, and it worked well, but I got so little call for it, and had to make so much at once, that it would go bad over a year or more, so discontinued it for sale. The shame is I know it worked great, yet new marblers wanted to mess with Liquitex or similar and get bad results, then email me for advice on how to use the Liquitex or whatever other brand. And worse, they often used it on MC, which I couldn't advise at all about due to not using it. Partly my acrylics were too expensive. I used the best grade materials, and made the opposite of the usual acrylic formulas... where most were just super heavy in acrylic base (plastic like goop) and fairly low in pigment, mine were heavy on the pigments and low on the acrylic goo. A few drops of paint went a long long way, plus they were pretty well ready to go right out of the bottles with no adjustments... but yes, they were expensive per ounce, but you got so much mileage per ounce! I do have my store bought pet favorites though, the cheap Ceram Coat is one, for the few times a year I may do fabric. Even that is prone to being a little different though from batch to batch, and not all the colors work for marbling. And sometimes ones that didn't work, will work in a new batch!
      >
      > All I can say is if you are starting out try it with the carrageenan, whether with watercolor or acrylic paints. Try to use what the main working marblers are using, they mention these items many times over and over in the archives, or you can get books they wrote.
      >
      > OK... will stop before this becomes a full length book... but why complicate marbling, it's tricky enough without adding difficult materials to the mix.
      >
      > Iris Nevins
      > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:23 PM
      > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
      >
      >
      > Iris and all thanks!
      > I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight pure
      > lines.
      > I could only create mud marbling with that fake jell...I see it all the
      > time.
      > What could have been nice was trashed with the savings of a few pennies.
      > Look at it like this carrageenan has been around hundreds of years.MC
      > well...20 years?
      > I dont know and I cant care once was enough for me.
      > Not knocking anyone just want to share what it is that has worked for me.
      > Thanks for not stocking it Iris it just would cause you headaches teaching
      > people to use it.
      > Marbling is fine art!
      > John
      >
      > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>> wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it
      > > costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also easy
      > > to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work, Hard
      > > water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long
      > > fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work, with
      > > acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just the
      > > best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed to
      > > follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long way
      > > though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it goes
      > > over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.
      > >
      > > I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use all
      > > the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to
      > > troubleshoot when people have a problem.
      > >
      > > Iris Nevins
      > > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarktile@...%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com>>>
      > >
      > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
      > > Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
      > > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
      > >
      > > Hi All
      > > I will say it again and again....
      > > C A R R A G E E N A N
      > > is the best I have found!
      > > Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
      > > marbling....
      > > Is it just me?
      > > John Goode
      > > watermarktile.com
      > >
      > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt <jcpratt@...<jcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcpratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org>>
      > > <mailto:jcpratt@...<mailto:jcpratt@...> <jcpratt%40efn.org>>> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
      > > > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
      > > > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
      > > > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
      > > > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
      > > > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
      > > > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
      > > >
      > > > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
      > > > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
      > > > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
      > > >
      > > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>
      > > <
      > > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>
      > > >
      > >
      > > > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
      > > >
      > > > Carol
      > > > Eugene, OR
      > > >
      > > > =====
      > > >
      > > > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
      > > > It is in NYC and family-owned.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
      > > > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
      > > > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
      > > <
      > > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
      > > >
      > >
      > > > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
      > > > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
      > > > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
      > > > >
      > > > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
      > > > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
      > > > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
      > > > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
      > > > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
      > > > >
      > > > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
      > > > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
      > > > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
      > > > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
      > > > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
      > > > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
      > > > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
      > > > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
      > > > >
      > > > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
      > > > > source.
      > > > > Sue
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • irisnevins
      Making marbling paint is a very delicate balance of all things. There is no one formula. Also most pigments are not marbling friendly or compatible with each
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 10, 2009
        Making marbling paint is a very delicate balance of all things. There is no one formula. Also most pigments are not marbling friendly or compatible with each other when floated. All you can do is try, it may or may not work. It is basically a watercolor or gouache type mix. Done on a small scale it is sometimes cheaper to buy the paints, so if this is about saving money, it may not be cost effective. If you want to do it for fun and satisfaction that is another story. It can be kind of an adventure really.

        You can check artist's manuals for such recipes and try them. It's a very long study though as applied to marbling paint, I think I started about 25 years ago and still have a lot to learn about the chemical and physical natures of the pigments, which come to life when floated on water.

        About acrylics, I don't use them unless doing fabric, which may be 1-2 times a year. You can get more variety in the interesting historical patterns with the watercolors, plus I never got the real old book paper look I love with acrylics, even the ones I made myself! My orientation is historic replication of early designs, so I tweak my paints to be able to do that. Many prefer the bright or pastel colors that may be better done with acrylics. The Watercolors too, they are only about 90% colorfast when dry unless you wax and polish or use a fixative. Most of my customers never use anything and they are fine. If wet they don't run, but could be smeared with wet hands. I would wax and burnish any papers ont eh outside of a book though, or at least use a non-workable fixative.

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: jehannettedelille<mailto:lady_blueshift@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:42 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] Re: new source for mc -3rd try


        I'm a total N00b in marbling, but an experienced illuminator...so am familiar with the watercolor pigment theory...will my home-made gum arabic based pigments work? Or are you mostly using the acrylic bases? Please talk more about the paints?

        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
        >
        > Yes, I feel the same way. Some folks are quite happy with the MC, so there is a place for it, but for my work, it's Carrageenan all the way. It just comes out better. I also really don't like saving size, it gets so depressingly dirty. Not inspiring. So I like to have it all clean and fresh when I start a marbling day.
        >
        > I think if newbies first did it the "old" way, they would have an easier time of it. I feel the same about so many of the so-called marbling paints out there. Most seem to give people endless problems. I became a "paint maker" out of sheer frustration, trying so many things, even called "marbling paints" that either failed entirely, or the different colors conflicted with each other. There was one brand where the yellow would expand so much it would sink the other colors. No matter how much gall you put in the others to counteract it. Even gouache, if it worked one time, another time it wouldn't. Marbling paint making is a really quirky thing in reality. You don't just mix a color, most pigments won't work anyway with the process... you have to study their chemical and physical properties, and then find the ones that are compatible with each other. I have been fine tuning the paint formulas for decades and am not done yet! And I stress formulaS with an S, there is just not one all purpose one that works with any pigment. I have to chuckle when someone asks for "the paint formula". It's like asking for "The Cookie Recipe" .... it's different for each pigment. It's is very complex really, and can be confusing.
        >
        > So in addition to using carrageenan for a new marbler, I also suggest using paints that are specifically made for the marbling process, either by an actual marbler who knows what is needed, or a maker who works with a very experienced marbler to test the paints. I know if used as instructed my paints will work, Nancy Morain's (Colophon Book Arts) will work. We are both marblers who use our own materials. I used to make a decent acrylic, and it worked well, but I got so little call for it, and had to make so much at once, that it would go bad over a year or more, so discontinued it for sale. The shame is I know it worked great, yet new marblers wanted to mess with Liquitex or similar and get bad results, then email me for advice on how to use the Liquitex or whatever other brand. And worse, they often used it on MC, which I couldn't advise at all about due to not using it. Partly my acrylics were too expensive. I used the best grade materials, and made the opposite of the usual acrylic formulas... where most were just super heavy in acrylic base (plastic like goop) and fairly low in pigment, mine were heavy on the pigments and low on the acrylic goo. A few drops of paint went a long long way, plus they were pretty well ready to go right out of the bottles with no adjustments... but yes, they were expensive per ounce, but you got so much mileage per ounce! I do have my store bought pet favorites though, the cheap Ceram Coat is one, for the few times a year I may do fabric. Even that is prone to being a little different though from batch to batch, and not all the colors work for marbling. And sometimes ones that didn't work, will work in a new batch!
        >
        > All I can say is if you are starting out try it with the carrageenan, whether with watercolor or acrylic paints. Try to use what the main working marblers are using, they mention these items many times over and over in the archives, or you can get books they wrote.
        >
        > OK... will stop before this becomes a full length book... but why complicate marbling, it's tricky enough without adding difficult materials to the mix.
        >
        > Iris Nevins
        > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile<mailto:watermarktile>@...>
        > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
        > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:23 PM
        > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
        >
        >
        > Iris and all thanks!
        > I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight pure
        > lines.
        > I could only create mud marbling with that fake jell...I see it all the
        > time.
        > What could have been nice was trashed with the savings of a few pennies.
        > Look at it like this carrageenan has been around hundreds of years.MC
        > well...20 years?
        > I dont know and I cant care once was enough for me.
        > Not knocking anyone just want to share what it is that has worked for me.
        > Thanks for not stocking it Iris it just would cause you headaches teaching
        > people to use it.
        > Marbling is fine art!
        > John
        >
        > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins<mailto:irisnevins@...%3Cmailto:irisnevins>@...>> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it
        > > costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also easy
        > > to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work, Hard
        > > water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long
        > > fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work, with
        > > acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just the
        > > best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed to
        > > follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long way
        > > though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it goes
        > > over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.
        > >
        > > I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use all
        > > the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to
        > > troubleshoot when people have a problem.
        > >
        > > Iris Nevins
        > > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/%3Chttp://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>>
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarktile@...%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarktile@...%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com%3Cmailto:watermarktile@...%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com>>>>
        > >
        > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
        > > Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
        > > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
        > >
        > > Hi All
        > > I will say it again and again....
        > > C A R R A G E E N A N
        > > is the best I have found!
        > > Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
        > > marbling....
        > > Is it just me?
        > > John Goode
        > > watermarktile.com
        > >
        > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt <jcpratt@...<jcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcpratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcpratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org%3Cmailto:jcpratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org>>>
        > > <mailto:jcpratt@...<mailto:jcpratt<mailto:jcpratt@...%3Cmailto:jcpratt>@...> <jcpratt%40efn.org>>> wrote:
        > >
        > > > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
        > > > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
        > > > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
        > > > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
        > > > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
        > > > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
        > > > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
        > > >
        > > > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
        > > > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
        > > > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
        > > >
        > > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>>
        > > <
        > > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>>
        > > >
        > >
        > > > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
        > > >
        > > > Carol
        > > > Eugene, OR
        > > >
        > > > =====
        > > >
        > > > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
        > > > It is in NYC and family-owned.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
        > > > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
        > > > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>>
        > > <
        > > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>>
        > > >
        > >
        > > > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
        > > > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
        > > > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
        > > > >
        > > > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
        > > > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
        > > > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
        > > > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
        > > > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
        > > > >
        > > > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
        > > > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
        > > > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
        > > > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
        > > > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
        > > > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
        > > > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
        > > > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
        > > > >
        > > > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
        > > > > source.
        > > > > Sue
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
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      • dixongarrett
        Gum arabic has been the standard watercolor paint binder for centuries - at least for watercolor painting it is still considered the finest binder. I would
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 10, 2009
          Gum arabic has been the standard watercolor paint binder for centuries - at least for watercolor painting it is still considered the finest binder. I would expect that your paints would work for marbling. If you have just mulled the pigment with the binder, a good starting point would be 1/4 tsp paint (assuming it is in paste form) mixed with 1 tbsp water. Add gall to give the desired buoyancy and spread on the size. When I initially started making my own paints I followed the directions for binder given in Mayer's Artist Handbook (2 ounces gum in 4 ounces water). This worked fairly well. I have also tried gum arabic with gum tragacanth as recommended by Joseph Halfer, fish glue, and what I currently use: a combination of gum tragacanth and hide or rabbit skin glue. This last combination was recommended by Halfer as being the best binder, and I agree. It gives a smooth paint that floats well, allows for clean, thin, lines (thin lines with gum arabic tend to break or become grainy). I have not had the problems with paint adhesion that other marblers have had and I wonder whether the binder is the reason. After many years of experimentation, I have come to believe that the binder is as important as the pigment in making a good watercolor marbling paint. Making the paint, at least as I do it, then is a fairly standard process of adding binder to dry pigment with any other additives that are part of the recipe (I add wax) and mulling until you have a smooth paste. Its a bit labor intensive, can take a while to get comfortable with the process, and there is an outlay of cost for pigments, but the results, and the control it allows you over the marbling process make it very worthwhile. If you are already making your own paints for illumination you are probably pretty familiar with the process and what you are doing should be applicable to marbling. However, being new to marbling, I would encourage you to try first with paints made for marbling so you have some basis for comparison with your paints. Otherwise you will have difficulty determining whether a problem is with your paint or the marbling process and all its variables.
          Garrett Dixon

          Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "jehannettedelille" <lady_blueshift@...> wrote:
          >
          > I'm a total N00b in marbling, but an experienced illuminator...so am familiar with the watercolor pigment theory...will my home-made gum arabic based pigments work? Or are you mostly using the acrylic bases? Please talk more about the paints?
          >
          > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Yes, I feel the same way. Some folks are quite happy with the MC, so there is a place for it, but for my work, it's Carrageenan all the way. It just comes out better. I also really don't like saving size, it gets so depressingly dirty. Not inspiring. So I like to have it all clean and fresh when I start a marbling day.
          > >
          > > I think if newbies first did it the "old" way, they would have an easier time of it. I feel the same about so many of the so-called marbling paints out there. Most seem to give people endless problems. I became a "paint maker" out of sheer frustration, trying so many things, even called "marbling paints" that either failed entirely, or the different colors conflicted with each other. There was one brand where the yellow would expand so much it would sink the other colors. No matter how much gall you put in the others to counteract it. Even gouache, if it worked one time, another time it wouldn't. Marbling paint making is a really quirky thing in reality. You don't just mix a color, most pigments won't work anyway with the process... you have to study their chemical and physical properties, and then find the ones that are compatible with each other. I have been fine tuning the paint formulas for decades and am not done yet! And I stress formulaS with an S, there is just not one all purpose one that works with any pigment. I have to chuckle when someone asks for "the paint formula". It's like asking for "The Cookie Recipe" .... it's different for each pigment. It's is very complex really, and can be confusing.
          > >
          > > So in addition to using carrageenan for a new marbler, I also suggest using paints that are specifically made for the marbling process, either by an actual marbler who knows what is needed, or a maker who works with a very experienced marbler to test the paints. I know if used as instructed my paints will work, Nancy Morain's (Colophon Book Arts) will work. We are both marblers who use our own materials. I used to make a decent acrylic, and it worked well, but I got so little call for it, and had to make so much at once, that it would go bad over a year or more, so discontinued it for sale. The shame is I know it worked great, yet new marblers wanted to mess with Liquitex or similar and get bad results, then email me for advice on how to use the Liquitex or whatever other brand. And worse, they often used it on MC, which I couldn't advise at all about due to not using it. Partly my acrylics were too expensive. I used the best grade materials, and made the opposite of the usual acrylic formulas... where most were just super heavy in acrylic base (plastic like goop) and fairly low in pigment, mine were heavy on the pigments and low on the acrylic goo. A few drops of paint went a long long way, plus they were pretty well ready to go right out of the bottles with no adjustments... but yes, they were expensive per ounce, but you got so much mileage per ounce! I do have my store bought pet favorites though, the cheap Ceram Coat is one, for the few times a year I may do fabric. Even that is prone to being a little different though from batch to batch, and not all the colors work for marbling. And sometimes ones that didn't work, will work in a new batch!
          > >
          > > All I can say is if you are starting out try it with the carrageenan, whether with watercolor or acrylic paints. Try to use what the main working marblers are using, they mention these items many times over and over in the archives, or you can get books they wrote.
          > >
          > > OK... will stop before this becomes a full length book... but why complicate marbling, it's tricky enough without adding difficult materials to the mix.
          > >
          > > Iris Nevins
          > > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@>
          > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:23 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
          > >
          > >
          > > Iris and all thanks!
          > > I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight pure
          > > lines.
          > > I could only create mud marbling with that fake jell...I see it all the
          > > time.
          > > What could have been nice was trashed with the savings of a few pennies.
          > > Look at it like this carrageenan has been around hundreds of years.MC
          > > well...20 years?
          > > I dont know and I cant care once was enough for me.
          > > Not knocking anyone just want to share what it is that has worked for me.
          > > Thanks for not stocking it Iris it just would cause you headaches teaching
          > > people to use it.
          > > Marbling is fine art!
          > > John
          > >
          > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM, irisnevins <irisnevins@<mailto:irisnevins@>> wrote:
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it
          > > > costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also easy
          > > > to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work, Hard
          > > > water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long
          > > > fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work, with
          > > > acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just the
          > > > best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed to
          > > > follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long way
          > > > though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it goes
          > > > over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.
          > > >
          > > > I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use all
          > > > the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to
          > > > troubleshoot when people have a problem.
          > > >
          > > > Iris Nevins
          > > > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
          > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@<watermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarktile@%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com>>>
          > > >
          > > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
          > > > Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
          > > > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
          > > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
          > > >
          > > > Hi All
          > > > I will say it again and again....
          > > > C A R R A G E E N A N
          > > > is the best I have found!
          > > > Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
          > > > marbling....
          > > > Is it just me?
          > > > John Goode
          > > > watermarktile.com
          > > >
          > > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt <jcpratt@<jcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcpratt@%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org>>
          > > > <mailto:jcpratt@<mailto:jcpratt@> <jcpratt%40efn.org>>> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
          > > > > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
          > > > > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
          > > > > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
          > > > > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
          > > > > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
          > > > > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
          > > > >
          > > > > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
          > > > > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
          > > > > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
          > > > >
          > > > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>
          > > > <
          > > > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
          > > > >
          > > > > Carol
          > > > > Eugene, OR
          > > > >
          > > > > =====
          > > > >
          > > > > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
          > > > > It is in NYC and family-owned.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
          > > > > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
          > > > > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
          > > > <
          > > > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
          > > > > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
          > > > > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
          > > > > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
          > > > > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
          > > > > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
          > > > > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
          > > > > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
          > > > > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
          > > > > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
          > > > > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
          > > > > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
          > > > > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
          > > > > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
          > > > > > source.
          > > > > > Sue
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > >
          > > > >
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