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Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try

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  • Carol Pratt
    Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is completely dispersed,
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 6, 2009
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      Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
      MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
      completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
      about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195�F. (90�C.) and
      the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
      The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
      is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.

      Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
      work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
      from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375
      >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.

      Carol
      Eugene, OR

      =====

      TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
      It is in NYC and family-owned.




      On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:

      > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
      > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
      > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
      > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search
      > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
      > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
      > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
      >
      > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
      > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
      > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
      > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
      > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
      >
      > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
      > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
      > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
      > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
      > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
      > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
      > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
      > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
      >
      > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
      > source.
      > Sue
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Goode
      Hi All I will say it again and again.... C A R R A G E E N A N is the best I have found! Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 7, 2009
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        Hi All
        I will say it again and again....
        C A R R A G E E N A N
        is the best I have found!
        Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
        marbling....
        Is it just me?
        John Goode
        watermarktile.com

        On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt <jcpratt@...> wrote:

        > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
        > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
        > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
        > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
        > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
        > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
        > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
        >
        > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
        > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
        > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
        > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375
        > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
        >
        > Carol
        > Eugene, OR
        >
        > =====
        >
        > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
        > It is in NYC and family-owned.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
        >
        > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
        > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
        > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
        > >
        > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search
        > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
        > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
        > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
        > >
        > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
        > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
        > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
        > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
        > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
        > >
        > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
        > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
        > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
        > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
        > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
        > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
        > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
        > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
        > >
        > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
        > > source.
        > > Sue
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • irisnevins
        No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it costs more, yes you can t save it very long, but I love it. It is also easy to work
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 7, 2009
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          No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also easy to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work, Hard water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work, with acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just the best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed to follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long way though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it goes over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.

          I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use all the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to troubleshoot when people have a problem.

          Iris Nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
          Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try


          Hi All
          I will say it again and again....
          C A R R A G E E N A N
          is the best I have found!
          Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
          marbling....
          Is it just me?
          John Goode
          watermarktile.com

          On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt <jcpratt@...<mailto:jcpratt@...>> wrote:

          > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
          > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
          > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
          > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
          > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
          > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
          > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
          >
          > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
          > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
          > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
          > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>
          > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
          >
          > Carol
          > Eugene, OR
          >
          > =====
          >
          > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
          > It is in NYC and family-owned.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
          >
          > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
          > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
          > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
          > >
          > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
          > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
          > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
          > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
          > >
          > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
          > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
          > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
          > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
          > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
          > >
          > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
          > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
          > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
          > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
          > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
          > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
          > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
          > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
          > >
          > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
          > > source.
          > > Sue
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Goode
          Iris and all thanks! I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight pure lines. I could only create mud marbling with that fake
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 7, 2009
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            Iris and all thanks!
            I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight pure
            lines.
            I could only create mud marbling with that fake jell...I see it all the
            time.
            What could have been nice was trashed with the savings of a few pennies.
            Look at it like this carrageenan has been around hundreds of years.MC
            well...20 years?
            I dont know and I cant care once was enough for me.
            Not knocking anyone just want to share what it is that has worked for me.
            Thanks for not stocking it Iris it just would cause you headaches teaching
            people to use it.
            Marbling is fine art!
            John

            On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it
            > costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also easy
            > to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work, Hard
            > water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long
            > fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work, with
            > acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just the
            > best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed to
            > follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long way
            > though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it goes
            > over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.
            >
            > I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use all
            > the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to
            > troubleshoot when people have a problem.
            >
            > Iris Nevins
            > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com>>
            >
            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
            > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
            > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
            >
            > Hi All
            > I will say it again and again....
            > C A R R A G E E N A N
            > is the best I have found!
            > Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
            > marbling....
            > Is it just me?
            > John Goode
            > watermarktile.com
            >
            > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt <jcpratt@...<jcpratt%40efn.org>
            > <mailto:jcpratt@... <jcpratt%40efn.org>>> wrote:
            >
            > > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
            > > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
            > > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
            > > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195�F. (90�C.) and
            > > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
            > > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
            > > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
            > >
            > > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
            > > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
            > > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
            > >
            > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375
            > <
            > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375
            > >
            >
            > > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
            > >
            > > Carol
            > > Eugene, OR
            > >
            > > =====
            > >
            > > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
            > > It is in NYC and family-owned.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
            > >
            > > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
            > > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
            > > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
            > > >
            > >
            > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search
            > <
            > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search
            > >
            >
            > > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
            > > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
            > > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
            > > >
            > > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
            > > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
            > > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
            > > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
            > > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
            > > >
            > > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
            > > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
            > > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
            > > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
            > > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
            > > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
            > > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
            > > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
            > > >
            > > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
            > > > source.
            > > > Sue
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • irisnevins
            Yes, I feel the same way. Some folks are quite happy with the MC, so there is a place for it, but for my work, it s Carrageenan all the way. It just comes out
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 7, 2009
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              Yes, I feel the same way. Some folks are quite happy with the MC, so there is a place for it, but for my work, it's Carrageenan all the way. It just comes out better. I also really don't like saving size, it gets so depressingly dirty. Not inspiring. So I like to have it all clean and fresh when I start a marbling day.

              I think if newbies first did it the "old" way, they would have an easier time of it. I feel the same about so many of the so-called marbling paints out there. Most seem to give people endless problems. I became a "paint maker" out of sheer frustration, trying so many things, even called "marbling paints" that either failed entirely, or the different colors conflicted with each other. There was one brand where the yellow would expand so much it would sink the other colors. No matter how much gall you put in the others to counteract it. Even gouache, if it worked one time, another time it wouldn't. Marbling paint making is a really quirky thing in reality. You don't just mix a color, most pigments won't work anyway with the process... you have to study their chemical and physical properties, and then find the ones that are compatible with each other. I have been fine tuning the paint formulas for decades and am not done yet! And I stress formulaS with an S, there is just not one all purpose one that works with any pigment. I have to chuckle when someone asks for "the paint formula". It's like asking for "The Cookie Recipe" .... it's different for each pigment. It's is very complex really, and can be confusing.

              So in addition to using carrageenan for a new marbler, I also suggest using paints that are specifically made for the marbling process, either by an actual marbler who knows what is needed, or a maker who works with a very experienced marbler to test the paints. I know if used as instructed my paints will work, Nancy Morain's (Colophon Book Arts) will work. We are both marblers who use our own materials. I used to make a decent acrylic, and it worked well, but I got so little call for it, and had to make so much at once, that it would go bad over a year or more, so discontinued it for sale. The shame is I know it worked great, yet new marblers wanted to mess with Liquitex or similar and get bad results, then email me for advice on how to use the Liquitex or whatever other brand. And worse, they often used it on MC, which I couldn't advise at all about due to not using it. Partly my acrylics were too expensive. I used the best grade materials, and made the opposite of the usual acrylic formulas... where most were just super heavy in acrylic base (plastic like goop) and fairly low in pigment, mine were heavy on the pigments and low on the acrylic goo. A few drops of paint went a long long way, plus they were pretty well ready to go right out of the bottles with no adjustments... but yes, they were expensive per ounce, but you got so much mileage per ounce! I do have my store bought pet favorites though, the cheap Ceram Coat is one, for the few times a year I may do fabric. Even that is prone to being a little different though from batch to batch, and not all the colors work for marbling. And sometimes ones that didn't work, will work in a new batch!

              All I can say is if you are starting out try it with the carrageenan, whether with watercolor or acrylic paints. Try to use what the main working marblers are using, they mention these items many times over and over in the archives, or you can get books they wrote.

              OK... will stop before this becomes a full length book... but why complicate marbling, it's tricky enough without adding difficult materials to the mix.

              Iris Nevins
              www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:23 PM
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try


              Iris and all thanks!
              I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight pure
              lines.
              I could only create mud marbling with that fake jell...I see it all the
              time.
              What could have been nice was trashed with the savings of a few pennies.
              Look at it like this carrageenan has been around hundreds of years.MC
              well...20 years?
              I dont know and I cant care once was enough for me.
              Not knocking anyone just want to share what it is that has worked for me.
              Thanks for not stocking it Iris it just would cause you headaches teaching
              people to use it.
              Marbling is fine art!
              John

              On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>> wrote:

              >
              >
              > No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it
              > costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also easy
              > to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work, Hard
              > water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long
              > fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work, with
              > acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just the
              > best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed to
              > follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long way
              > though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it goes
              > over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.
              >
              > I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use all
              > the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to
              > troubleshoot when people have a problem.
              >
              > Iris Nevins
              > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarktile@...%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com>>>
              >
              > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
              > Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
              >
              > Hi All
              > I will say it again and again....
              > C A R R A G E E N A N
              > is the best I have found!
              > Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
              > marbling....
              > Is it just me?
              > John Goode
              > watermarktile.com
              >
              > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt <jcpratt@...<jcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcpratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org>>
              > <mailto:jcpratt@...<mailto:jcpratt@...> <jcpratt%40efn.org>>> wrote:
              >
              > > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
              > > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
              > > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
              > > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
              > > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
              > > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
              > > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
              > >
              > > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
              > > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
              > > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
              > >
              > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>
              > <
              > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>
              > >
              >
              > > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
              > >
              > > Carol
              > > Eugene, OR
              > >
              > > =====
              > >
              > > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
              > > It is in NYC and family-owned.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
              > >
              > > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
              > > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
              > > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
              > > >
              > >
              > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
              > <
              > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
              > >
              >
              > > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
              > > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
              > > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
              > > >
              > > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
              > > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
              > > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
              > > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
              > > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
              > > >
              > > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
              > > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
              > > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
              > > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
              > > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
              > > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
              > > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
              > > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
              > > >
              > > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
              > > > source.
              > > > Sue
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Glenda Kirkiridis
              You know, it s all very well saying Carageen is the way to go. Maybe in countries like the States and most European countries but here in South Africa,
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
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                You know, it's all very well saying Carageen is the way to go. Maybe in
                countries like the States and most European countries but here in South
                Africa, carrageen costs an arm and three legs - if you can find it and
                people actually know what you are talking about. Yes, we can get food grade
                carrageen but at an enormously inflated price and, sorry, fine art or not,
                MC is the easier to find and the less expensive by far. We have identified a
                very good MC which is a tenth of the price of the Carrageen and have found
                it very easy to mix and use. Given that we get through about 300 litres of
                size a week when we are in production, you can understand that carrageen is
                not an option for us.



                Alum is another thing that costs an arm and a leg as we can only get
                pharmaceutical grade alum here. If I could find a substitute I would.



                Pigments? We use what we can find. It's pointless trying to bring in
                expensive good quality marbling paints from the States or U.K. By the time
                you have paid the freight costs and duties- yes there are huge duties on
                non- essentials-you have products that are not viable in production.



                Pigment base? This created a few headaches for us given that most acrylic
                bases in South Africa are water based. We eventually found a base that was
                white spirits based and this is the one that works for us.





                Regards,

                Glenda in South Africa







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ellen Tresselt
                Since when does marbling boil down (no pun intended) to only carageenan or methyl cellulose? What happened to gum tragacanth? I thought that was the real
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
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                  Since when does marbling boil down (no pun intended) to only
                  carageenan or methyl cellulose? What happened to gum tragacanth? I
                  thought that was the "real" "traditional" size material, even though
                  essentially no one in the United States is using it. Iris, you have
                  said yourself that historically people have used what was available
                  to them at the time/era in which they were working and that had
                  marblers one or two hundred years ago had the choices available to us
                  today, no doubt they would have taken full advantage of whatever they
                  could lay their hands on! There is more than one style of marbling
                  -- duplicating historical techniques is just one approach. I think
                  this discussion becomes ridiculous after awhile and can have the
                  effect of intimidating those in the learning process or making those
                  of us using one size material or the other feel defensive or
                  embarrassed. The key here for newbies is learning process -- doing
                  the research to become informed about the wide array of different
                  materials and techniques, deciding what style of marbling appeals to
                  you, experimenting with different materials, seeing what is realistic
                  and practical (what you can afford and obtain easily), working it out
                  until you achieve the results that meet your own personal standards
                  and deciding for yourself what you can be satisfied with! Many
                  people new to marbling want a magic formula to eliminate all the
                  bumps in the road and become accomplished marblers after only a few
                  hundred tries. Well kids, it's a real bumpy road. If you're like
                  most, you many need a few hundred thousand tries. That's just how it
                  is. But I would honestly say, do not get hung up about MC or
                  carageenan and let that spoil it for you. There is no wrong or right
                  here. One is not superior to the other and people with different
                  skills are able to achieve excellent results with one or the other.

                  Nelle Tresselt



                  On Nov 8, 2009, at 8:52 AM, Glenda Kirkiridis wrote:

                  > You know, it's all very well saying Carageen is the way to go.
                  > Maybe in
                  > countries like the States and most European countries but here in
                  > South
                  > Africa, carrageen costs an arm and three legs - if you can find it and
                  > people actually know what you are talking about. Yes, we can get
                  > food grade
                  > carrageen but at an enormously inflated price and, sorry, fine art
                  > or not,
                  > MC is the easier to find and the less expensive by far. We have
                  > identified a
                  > very good MC which is a tenth of the price of the Carrageen and
                  > have found
                  > it very easy to mix and use. Given that we get through about 300
                  > litres of
                  > size a week when we are in production, you can understand that
                  > carrageen is
                  > not an option for us.
                  >
                  > Alum is another thing that costs an arm and a leg as we can only get
                  > pharmaceutical grade alum here. If I could find a substitute I would.
                  >
                  > Pigments? We use what we can find. It's pointless trying to bring in
                  > expensive good quality marbling paints from the States or U.K. By
                  > the time
                  > you have paid the freight costs and duties- yes there are huge
                  > duties on
                  > non- essentials-you have products that are not viable in production.
                  >
                  > Pigment base? This created a few headaches for us given that most
                  > acrylic
                  > bases in South Africa are water based. We eventually found a base
                  > that was
                  > white spirits based and this is the one that works for us.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Glenda in South Africa
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Goode
                  Nelle and Glenda and all.. You are both correct. I have been known to stir up debate here.I do need to try my new inks on all mediums to make sure I do not
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
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                    Nelle and Glenda and all..
                    You are both correct. I have been known to stir up debate here.I do need to
                    try my new inks on all mediums to make sure I do not miss some fun. Use what
                    you can when you can its just marbling there are so many ways to do it that
                    one is not right. I always hear the MC question here and my first thoughts
                    are skip it try traditional ways esp when its always I tried Dharmas MC and
                    its yucky.That way people can get results like us marblers that have found
                    what works.The best marbler is the one inside you or that does not know what
                    else there is to compare to.They are top of their game and thats what makes
                    them there...having results that make you happy.
                    So elitist I am not, just saying try some other means..I am up for some
                    sumingashi if my inks will float and fire up to 2250, still working on that
                    dispersing agent that works on water?
                    Thanks for the input
                    John Goode

                    On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Ellen Tresselt <ntresselt@...> wrote:

                    > Since when does marbling boil down (no pun intended) to only
                    > carageenan or methyl cellulose? What happened to gum tragacanth? I
                    > thought that was the "real" "traditional" size material, even though
                    > essentially no one in the United States is using it. Iris, you have
                    > said yourself that historically people have used what was available
                    > to them at the time/era in which they were working and that had
                    > marblers one or two hundred years ago had the choices available to us
                    > today, no doubt they would have taken full advantage of whatever they
                    > could lay their hands on! There is more than one style of marbling
                    > -- duplicating historical techniques is just one approach. I think
                    > this discussion becomes ridiculous after awhile and can have the
                    > effect of intimidating those in the learning process or making those
                    > of us using one size material or the other feel defensive or
                    > embarrassed. The key here for newbies is learning process -- doing
                    > the research to become informed about the wide array of different
                    > materials and techniques, deciding what style of marbling appeals to
                    > you, experimenting with different materials, seeing what is realistic
                    > and practical (what you can afford and obtain easily), working it out
                    > until you achieve the results that meet your own personal standards
                    > and deciding for yourself what you can be satisfied with! Many
                    > people new to marbling want a magic formula to eliminate all the
                    > bumps in the road and become accomplished marblers after only a few
                    > hundred tries. Well kids, it's a real bumpy road. If you're like
                    > most, you many need a few hundred thousand tries. That's just how it
                    > is. But I would honestly say, do not get hung up about MC or
                    > carageenan and let that spoil it for you. There is no wrong or right
                    > here. One is not superior to the other and people with different
                    > skills are able to achieve excellent results with one or the other.
                    >
                    > Nelle Tresselt
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Nov 8, 2009, at 8:52 AM, Glenda Kirkiridis wrote:
                    >
                    > > You know, it's all very well saying Carageen is the way to go.
                    > > Maybe in
                    > > countries like the States and most European countries but here in
                    > > South
                    > > Africa, carrageen costs an arm and three legs - if you can find it and
                    > > people actually know what you are talking about. Yes, we can get
                    > > food grade
                    > > carrageen but at an enormously inflated price and, sorry, fine art
                    > > or not,
                    > > MC is the easier to find and the less expensive by far. We have
                    > > identified a
                    > > very good MC which is a tenth of the price of the Carrageen and
                    > > have found
                    > > it very easy to mix and use. Given that we get through about 300
                    > > litres of
                    > > size a week when we are in production, you can understand that
                    > > carrageen is
                    > > not an option for us.
                    > >
                    > > Alum is another thing that costs an arm and a leg as we can only get
                    > > pharmaceutical grade alum here. If I could find a substitute I would.
                    > >
                    > > Pigments? We use what we can find. It's pointless trying to bring in
                    > > expensive good quality marbling paints from the States or U.K. By
                    > > the time
                    > > you have paid the freight costs and duties- yes there are huge
                    > > duties on
                    > > non- essentials-you have products that are not viable in production.
                    > >
                    > > Pigment base? This created a few headaches for us given that most
                    > > acrylic
                    > > bases in South Africa are water based. We eventually found a base
                    > > that was
                    > > white spirits based and this is the one that works for us.
                    > >
                    > > Regards,
                    > >
                    > > Glenda in South Africa
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jehannettedelille
                    I m a total N00b in marbling, but an experienced illuminator...so am familiar with the watercolor pigment theory...will my home-made gum arabic based pigments
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 10, 2009
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                      I'm a total N00b in marbling, but an experienced illuminator...so am familiar with the watercolor pigment theory...will my home-made gum arabic based pigments work? Or are you mostly using the acrylic bases? Please talk more about the paints?

                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Yes, I feel the same way. Some folks are quite happy with the MC, so there is a place for it, but for my work, it's Carrageenan all the way. It just comes out better. I also really don't like saving size, it gets so depressingly dirty. Not inspiring. So I like to have it all clean and fresh when I start a marbling day.
                      >
                      > I think if newbies first did it the "old" way, they would have an easier time of it. I feel the same about so many of the so-called marbling paints out there. Most seem to give people endless problems. I became a "paint maker" out of sheer frustration, trying so many things, even called "marbling paints" that either failed entirely, or the different colors conflicted with each other. There was one brand where the yellow would expand so much it would sink the other colors. No matter how much gall you put in the others to counteract it. Even gouache, if it worked one time, another time it wouldn't. Marbling paint making is a really quirky thing in reality. You don't just mix a color, most pigments won't work anyway with the process... you have to study their chemical and physical properties, and then find the ones that are compatible with each other. I have been fine tuning the paint formulas for decades and am not done yet! And I stress formulaS with an S, there is just not one all purpose one that works with any pigment. I have to chuckle when someone asks for "the paint formula". It's like asking for "The Cookie Recipe" .... it's different for each pigment. It's is very complex really, and can be confusing.
                      >
                      > So in addition to using carrageenan for a new marbler, I also suggest using paints that are specifically made for the marbling process, either by an actual marbler who knows what is needed, or a maker who works with a very experienced marbler to test the paints. I know if used as instructed my paints will work, Nancy Morain's (Colophon Book Arts) will work. We are both marblers who use our own materials. I used to make a decent acrylic, and it worked well, but I got so little call for it, and had to make so much at once, that it would go bad over a year or more, so discontinued it for sale. The shame is I know it worked great, yet new marblers wanted to mess with Liquitex or similar and get bad results, then email me for advice on how to use the Liquitex or whatever other brand. And worse, they often used it on MC, which I couldn't advise at all about due to not using it. Partly my acrylics were too expensive. I used the best grade materials, and made the opposite of the usual acrylic formulas... where most were just super heavy in acrylic base (plastic like goop) and fairly low in pigment, mine were heavy on the pigments and low on the acrylic goo. A few drops of paint went a long long way, plus they were pretty well ready to go right out of the bottles with no adjustments... but yes, they were expensive per ounce, but you got so much mileage per ounce! I do have my store bought pet favorites though, the cheap Ceram Coat is one, for the few times a year I may do fabric. Even that is prone to being a little different though from batch to batch, and not all the colors work for marbling. And sometimes ones that didn't work, will work in a new batch!
                      >
                      > All I can say is if you are starting out try it with the carrageenan, whether with watercolor or acrylic paints. Try to use what the main working marblers are using, they mention these items many times over and over in the archives, or you can get books they wrote.
                      >
                      > OK... will stop before this becomes a full length book... but why complicate marbling, it's tricky enough without adding difficult materials to the mix.
                      >
                      > Iris Nevins
                      > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
                      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:23 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
                      >
                      >
                      > Iris and all thanks!
                      > I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight pure
                      > lines.
                      > I could only create mud marbling with that fake jell...I see it all the
                      > time.
                      > What could have been nice was trashed with the savings of a few pennies.
                      > Look at it like this carrageenan has been around hundreds of years.MC
                      > well...20 years?
                      > I dont know and I cant care once was enough for me.
                      > Not knocking anyone just want to share what it is that has worked for me.
                      > Thanks for not stocking it Iris it just would cause you headaches teaching
                      > people to use it.
                      > Marbling is fine art!
                      > John
                      >
                      > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it
                      > > costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also easy
                      > > to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work, Hard
                      > > water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long
                      > > fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work, with
                      > > acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just the
                      > > best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed to
                      > > follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long way
                      > > though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it goes
                      > > over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.
                      > >
                      > > I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use all
                      > > the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to
                      > > troubleshoot when people have a problem.
                      > >
                      > > Iris Nevins
                      > > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarktile@...%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com>>>
                      > >
                      > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                      > > Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
                      > > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
                      > >
                      > > Hi All
                      > > I will say it again and again....
                      > > C A R R A G E E N A N
                      > > is the best I have found!
                      > > Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
                      > > marbling....
                      > > Is it just me?
                      > > John Goode
                      > > watermarktile.com
                      > >
                      > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt <jcpratt@...<jcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcpratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org>>
                      > > <mailto:jcpratt@...<mailto:jcpratt@...> <jcpratt%40efn.org>>> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
                      > > > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
                      > > > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
                      > > > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
                      > > > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
                      > > > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
                      > > > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
                      > > >
                      > > > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
                      > > > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
                      > > > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
                      > > >
                      > > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>
                      > > <
                      > > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
                      > > >
                      > > > Carol
                      > > > Eugene, OR
                      > > >
                      > > > =====
                      > > >
                      > > > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
                      > > > It is in NYC and family-owned.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
                      > > > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
                      > > > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
                      > > <
                      > > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
                      > > > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
                      > > > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
                      > > > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
                      > > > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
                      > > > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
                      > > > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
                      > > > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
                      > > > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
                      > > > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
                      > > > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
                      > > > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
                      > > > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
                      > > > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
                      > > > > source.
                      > > > > Sue
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • irisnevins
                      Making marbling paint is a very delicate balance of all things. There is no one formula. Also most pigments are not marbling friendly or compatible with each
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 10, 2009
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                        Making marbling paint is a very delicate balance of all things. There is no one formula. Also most pigments are not marbling friendly or compatible with each other when floated. All you can do is try, it may or may not work. It is basically a watercolor or gouache type mix. Done on a small scale it is sometimes cheaper to buy the paints, so if this is about saving money, it may not be cost effective. If you want to do it for fun and satisfaction that is another story. It can be kind of an adventure really.

                        You can check artist's manuals for such recipes and try them. It's a very long study though as applied to marbling paint, I think I started about 25 years ago and still have a lot to learn about the chemical and physical natures of the pigments, which come to life when floated on water.

                        About acrylics, I don't use them unless doing fabric, which may be 1-2 times a year. You can get more variety in the interesting historical patterns with the watercolors, plus I never got the real old book paper look I love with acrylics, even the ones I made myself! My orientation is historic replication of early designs, so I tweak my paints to be able to do that. Many prefer the bright or pastel colors that may be better done with acrylics. The Watercolors too, they are only about 90% colorfast when dry unless you wax and polish or use a fixative. Most of my customers never use anything and they are fine. If wet they don't run, but could be smeared with wet hands. I would wax and burnish any papers ont eh outside of a book though, or at least use a non-workable fixative.

                        Iris Nevins
                        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: jehannettedelille<mailto:lady_blueshift@...>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:42 AM
                        Subject: [Marbling] Re: new source for mc -3rd try


                        I'm a total N00b in marbling, but an experienced illuminator...so am familiar with the watercolor pigment theory...will my home-made gum arabic based pigments work? Or are you mostly using the acrylic bases? Please talk more about the paints?

                        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Yes, I feel the same way. Some folks are quite happy with the MC, so there is a place for it, but for my work, it's Carrageenan all the way. It just comes out better. I also really don't like saving size, it gets so depressingly dirty. Not inspiring. So I like to have it all clean and fresh when I start a marbling day.
                        >
                        > I think if newbies first did it the "old" way, they would have an easier time of it. I feel the same about so many of the so-called marbling paints out there. Most seem to give people endless problems. I became a "paint maker" out of sheer frustration, trying so many things, even called "marbling paints" that either failed entirely, or the different colors conflicted with each other. There was one brand where the yellow would expand so much it would sink the other colors. No matter how much gall you put in the others to counteract it. Even gouache, if it worked one time, another time it wouldn't. Marbling paint making is a really quirky thing in reality. You don't just mix a color, most pigments won't work anyway with the process... you have to study their chemical and physical properties, and then find the ones that are compatible with each other. I have been fine tuning the paint formulas for decades and am not done yet! And I stress formulaS with an S, there is just not one all purpose one that works with any pigment. I have to chuckle when someone asks for "the paint formula". It's like asking for "The Cookie Recipe" .... it's different for each pigment. It's is very complex really, and can be confusing.
                        >
                        > So in addition to using carrageenan for a new marbler, I also suggest using paints that are specifically made for the marbling process, either by an actual marbler who knows what is needed, or a maker who works with a very experienced marbler to test the paints. I know if used as instructed my paints will work, Nancy Morain's (Colophon Book Arts) will work. We are both marblers who use our own materials. I used to make a decent acrylic, and it worked well, but I got so little call for it, and had to make so much at once, that it would go bad over a year or more, so discontinued it for sale. The shame is I know it worked great, yet new marblers wanted to mess with Liquitex or similar and get bad results, then email me for advice on how to use the Liquitex or whatever other brand. And worse, they often used it on MC, which I couldn't advise at all about due to not using it. Partly my acrylics were too expensive. I used the best grade materials, and made the opposite of the usual acrylic formulas... where most were just super heavy in acrylic base (plastic like goop) and fairly low in pigment, mine were heavy on the pigments and low on the acrylic goo. A few drops of paint went a long long way, plus they were pretty well ready to go right out of the bottles with no adjustments... but yes, they were expensive per ounce, but you got so much mileage per ounce! I do have my store bought pet favorites though, the cheap Ceram Coat is one, for the few times a year I may do fabric. Even that is prone to being a little different though from batch to batch, and not all the colors work for marbling. And sometimes ones that didn't work, will work in a new batch!
                        >
                        > All I can say is if you are starting out try it with the carrageenan, whether with watercolor or acrylic paints. Try to use what the main working marblers are using, they mention these items many times over and over in the archives, or you can get books they wrote.
                        >
                        > OK... will stop before this becomes a full length book... but why complicate marbling, it's tricky enough without adding difficult materials to the mix.
                        >
                        > Iris Nevins
                        > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile<mailto:watermarktile>@...>
                        > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                        > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:23 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
                        >
                        >
                        > Iris and all thanks!
                        > I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight pure
                        > lines.
                        > I could only create mud marbling with that fake jell...I see it all the
                        > time.
                        > What could have been nice was trashed with the savings of a few pennies.
                        > Look at it like this carrageenan has been around hundreds of years.MC
                        > well...20 years?
                        > I dont know and I cant care once was enough for me.
                        > Not knocking anyone just want to share what it is that has worked for me.
                        > Thanks for not stocking it Iris it just would cause you headaches teaching
                        > people to use it.
                        > Marbling is fine art!
                        > John
                        >
                        > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins<mailto:irisnevins@...%3Cmailto:irisnevins>@...>> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it
                        > > costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also easy
                        > > to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work, Hard
                        > > water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long
                        > > fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work, with
                        > > acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just the
                        > > best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed to
                        > > follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long way
                        > > though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it goes
                        > > over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.
                        > >
                        > > I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use all
                        > > the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to
                        > > troubleshoot when people have a problem.
                        > >
                        > > Iris Nevins
                        > > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/%3Chttp://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>>
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarktile@...%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarktile@...%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com%3Cmailto:watermarktile@...%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com>>>>
                        > >
                        > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                        > > Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
                        > > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
                        > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
                        > >
                        > > Hi All
                        > > I will say it again and again....
                        > > C A R R A G E E N A N
                        > > is the best I have found!
                        > > Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
                        > > marbling....
                        > > Is it just me?
                        > > John Goode
                        > > watermarktile.com
                        > >
                        > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt <jcpratt@...<jcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcpratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcpratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org%3Cmailto:jcpratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org>>>
                        > > <mailto:jcpratt@...<mailto:jcpratt<mailto:jcpratt@...%3Cmailto:jcpratt>@...> <jcpratt%40efn.org>>> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
                        > > > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
                        > > > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
                        > > > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
                        > > > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
                        > > > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
                        > > > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
                        > > >
                        > > > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
                        > > > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
                        > > > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
                        > > >
                        > > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>>
                        > > <
                        > > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>>
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
                        > > >
                        > > > Carol
                        > > > Eugene, OR
                        > > >
                        > > > =====
                        > > >
                        > > > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
                        > > > It is in NYC and family-owned.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
                        > > > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
                        > > > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>>
                        > > <
                        > > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>>
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
                        > > > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
                        > > > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
                        > > > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
                        > > > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
                        > > > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
                        > > > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
                        > > > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
                        > > > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
                        > > > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
                        > > > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
                        > > > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
                        > > > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
                        > > > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
                        > > > > source.
                        > > > > Sue
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ------------------------------------
                        > > >
                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >




                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • dixongarrett
                        Gum arabic has been the standard watercolor paint binder for centuries - at least for watercolor painting it is still considered the finest binder. I would
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 10, 2009
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                          Gum arabic has been the standard watercolor paint binder for centuries - at least for watercolor painting it is still considered the finest binder. I would expect that your paints would work for marbling. If you have just mulled the pigment with the binder, a good starting point would be 1/4 tsp paint (assuming it is in paste form) mixed with 1 tbsp water. Add gall to give the desired buoyancy and spread on the size. When I initially started making my own paints I followed the directions for binder given in Mayer's Artist Handbook (2 ounces gum in 4 ounces water). This worked fairly well. I have also tried gum arabic with gum tragacanth as recommended by Joseph Halfer, fish glue, and what I currently use: a combination of gum tragacanth and hide or rabbit skin glue. This last combination was recommended by Halfer as being the best binder, and I agree. It gives a smooth paint that floats well, allows for clean, thin, lines (thin lines with gum arabic tend to break or become grainy). I have not had the problems with paint adhesion that other marblers have had and I wonder whether the binder is the reason. After many years of experimentation, I have come to believe that the binder is as important as the pigment in making a good watercolor marbling paint. Making the paint, at least as I do it, then is a fairly standard process of adding binder to dry pigment with any other additives that are part of the recipe (I add wax) and mulling until you have a smooth paste. Its a bit labor intensive, can take a while to get comfortable with the process, and there is an outlay of cost for pigments, but the results, and the control it allows you over the marbling process make it very worthwhile. If you are already making your own paints for illumination you are probably pretty familiar with the process and what you are doing should be applicable to marbling. However, being new to marbling, I would encourage you to try first with paints made for marbling so you have some basis for comparison with your paints. Otherwise you will have difficulty determining whether a problem is with your paint or the marbling process and all its variables.
                          Garrett Dixon

                          Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "jehannettedelille" <lady_blueshift@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I'm a total N00b in marbling, but an experienced illuminator...so am familiar with the watercolor pigment theory...will my home-made gum arabic based pigments work? Or are you mostly using the acrylic bases? Please talk more about the paints?
                          >
                          > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Yes, I feel the same way. Some folks are quite happy with the MC, so there is a place for it, but for my work, it's Carrageenan all the way. It just comes out better. I also really don't like saving size, it gets so depressingly dirty. Not inspiring. So I like to have it all clean and fresh when I start a marbling day.
                          > >
                          > > I think if newbies first did it the "old" way, they would have an easier time of it. I feel the same about so many of the so-called marbling paints out there. Most seem to give people endless problems. I became a "paint maker" out of sheer frustration, trying so many things, even called "marbling paints" that either failed entirely, or the different colors conflicted with each other. There was one brand where the yellow would expand so much it would sink the other colors. No matter how much gall you put in the others to counteract it. Even gouache, if it worked one time, another time it wouldn't. Marbling paint making is a really quirky thing in reality. You don't just mix a color, most pigments won't work anyway with the process... you have to study their chemical and physical properties, and then find the ones that are compatible with each other. I have been fine tuning the paint formulas for decades and am not done yet! And I stress formulaS with an S, there is just not one all purpose one that works with any pigment. I have to chuckle when someone asks for "the paint formula". It's like asking for "The Cookie Recipe" .... it's different for each pigment. It's is very complex really, and can be confusing.
                          > >
                          > > So in addition to using carrageenan for a new marbler, I also suggest using paints that are specifically made for the marbling process, either by an actual marbler who knows what is needed, or a maker who works with a very experienced marbler to test the paints. I know if used as instructed my paints will work, Nancy Morain's (Colophon Book Arts) will work. We are both marblers who use our own materials. I used to make a decent acrylic, and it worked well, but I got so little call for it, and had to make so much at once, that it would go bad over a year or more, so discontinued it for sale. The shame is I know it worked great, yet new marblers wanted to mess with Liquitex or similar and get bad results, then email me for advice on how to use the Liquitex or whatever other brand. And worse, they often used it on MC, which I couldn't advise at all about due to not using it. Partly my acrylics were too expensive. I used the best grade materials, and made the opposite of the usual acrylic formulas... where most were just super heavy in acrylic base (plastic like goop) and fairly low in pigment, mine were heavy on the pigments and low on the acrylic goo. A few drops of paint went a long long way, plus they were pretty well ready to go right out of the bottles with no adjustments... but yes, they were expensive per ounce, but you got so much mileage per ounce! I do have my store bought pet favorites though, the cheap Ceram Coat is one, for the few times a year I may do fabric. Even that is prone to being a little different though from batch to batch, and not all the colors work for marbling. And sometimes ones that didn't work, will work in a new batch!
                          > >
                          > > All I can say is if you are starting out try it with the carrageenan, whether with watercolor or acrylic paints. Try to use what the main working marblers are using, they mention these items many times over and over in the archives, or you can get books they wrote.
                          > >
                          > > OK... will stop before this becomes a full length book... but why complicate marbling, it's tricky enough without adding difficult materials to the mix.
                          > >
                          > > Iris Nevins
                          > > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@>
                          > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:23 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Iris and all thanks!
                          > > I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight pure
                          > > lines.
                          > > I could only create mud marbling with that fake jell...I see it all the
                          > > time.
                          > > What could have been nice was trashed with the savings of a few pennies.
                          > > Look at it like this carrageenan has been around hundreds of years.MC
                          > > well...20 years?
                          > > I dont know and I cant care once was enough for me.
                          > > Not knocking anyone just want to share what it is that has worked for me.
                          > > Thanks for not stocking it Iris it just would cause you headaches teaching
                          > > people to use it.
                          > > Marbling is fine art!
                          > > John
                          > >
                          > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM, irisnevins <irisnevins@<mailto:irisnevins@>> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it
                          > > > costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also easy
                          > > > to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work, Hard
                          > > > water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long
                          > > > fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work, with
                          > > > acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just the
                          > > > best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed to
                          > > > follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long way
                          > > > though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it goes
                          > > > over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.
                          > > >
                          > > > I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use all
                          > > > the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to
                          > > > troubleshoot when people have a problem.
                          > > >
                          > > > Iris Nevins
                          > > > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@<watermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarktile@%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com>>>
                          > > >
                          > > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                          > > > Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
                          > > > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
                          > > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi All
                          > > > I will say it again and again....
                          > > > C A R R A G E E N A N
                          > > > is the best I have found!
                          > > > Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
                          > > > marbling....
                          > > > Is it just me?
                          > > > John Goode
                          > > > watermarktile.com
                          > > >
                          > > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt <jcpratt@<jcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcpratt@%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org>>
                          > > > <mailto:jcpratt@<mailto:jcpratt@> <jcpratt%40efn.org>>> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
                          > > > > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
                          > > > > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
                          > > > > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
                          > > > > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
                          > > > > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
                          > > > > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
                          > > > > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
                          > > > > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
                          > > > >
                          > > > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>
                          > > > <
                          > > > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Carol
                          > > > > Eugene, OR
                          > > > >
                          > > > > =====
                          > > > >
                          > > > > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
                          > > > > It is in NYC and family-owned.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
                          > > > > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
                          > > > > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
                          > > > <
                          > > > http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
                          > > > > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
                          > > > > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
                          > > > > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
                          > > > > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
                          > > > > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
                          > > > > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
                          > > > > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
                          > > > > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
                          > > > > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
                          > > > > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
                          > > > > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
                          > > > > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
                          > > > > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
                          > > > > > source.
                          > > > > > Sue
                          > > > > >
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                          > > > >
                          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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