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Paper and alum treatment

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  • permtilperm
    I struggle with paper that has been treated with alum. When dry it becomes wrinkled and stiff - and avoiding air bubbles is a main issue. I can iron the
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 30, 2009
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      I struggle with paper that has been treated with alum. When dry it becomes wrinkled and stiff - and avoiding air bubbles is a main issue.

      I can iron the papers, or put then in a press until dry. Even if the wrinkel is gone (to a certain degree) the paper seems still stiff and not so easy to handle.
      Untreated papers work like a dream. But some must be treated to keep the colours.

      Should I try to have the papers a little moistened ? How will this affect the absorbsion" of colours ?
      It's probably natural - but the dryer the stiffer.
      My working environment is about 40%-50% RH.
    • irisnevins
      it really must be the type of paper you use. I never in nearly 32 years had that problem. It s harder to find a good paper these days, but the Blick white
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 30, 2009
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        it really must be the type of paper you use. I never in nearly 32 years had that problem. It's harder to find a good paper these days, but the Blick white sulfite paper works quite well. My only issue with it, is that sometimes they send long grain and sometimes short, and they have no clue what you are talking about. It is just how it is made, I believe in China. There is no talking to them, have no clue and even if they did they will do whatever they are doing. At least it marbles! I use the 80 lb. paper with no buckles and minimal curl when wet (the binders love this!) and they never are stiff with alum.
        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: permtilperm<mailto:erik@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 10:04 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] Paper and alum treatment


        I struggle with paper that has been treated with alum. When dry it becomes wrinkled and stiff - and avoiding air bubbles is a main issue.

        I can iron the papers, or put then in a press until dry. Even if the wrinkel is gone (to a certain degree) the paper seems still stiff and not so easy to handle.
        Untreated papers work like a dream. But some must be treated to keep the colours.

        Should I try to have the papers a little moistened ? How will this affect the absorbsion" of colours ?
        It's probably natural - but the dryer the stiffer.
        My working environment is about 40%-50% RH.





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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • permtilperm
        Thanks for the answer. But I m not sure if I understand correctly. Probably my english understanding - or writing - is not what I want it to be. ... no
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 1, 2009
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          Thanks for the answer.

          But I'm not sure if I understand correctly. Probably my english
          understanding - or writing - is not what I want it to be.

          "... no buckles and minimal curl when wet ..." is not my problem - even
          though the paper normally curls away from the surface of the size to
          some degree.
          To me the problem appears earlier in the process. The paper buckles and
          curl when dried up after the alum treatment - and in addition becomes
          stiffer as well. That is before applying the pattern.
          Of course it have buckles and curls as well after drying the ready
          marbled paper - but that doesn't matter so much because this flattens
          out when pasted to other papers as endpapers or boards as cover.

          I don't know the Blick sulfite - but papers I have used lately are among
          others:
          Conqueror Smooth Wove, Mohawk superfine matt, Geltex Prima.

          I should probably try to check if Blick is available in my area
          (Scandinavia preferably).

          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
          >
          > it really must be the type of paper you use. I never in nearly 32
          years had that problem. It's harder to find a good paper these days, but
          the Blick white sulfite paper works quite well. My only issue with it,
          is that sometimes they send long grain and sometimes short, and they
          have no clue what you are talking about. It is just how it is made, I
          believe in China. There is no talking to them, have no clue and even if
          they did they will do whatever they are doing. At least it marbles! I
          use the 80 lb. paper with no buckles and minimal curl when wet (the
          binders love this!) and they never are stiff with alum.
          > Iris Nevins
          > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: permtilperm<mailto:erik@...
          > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 10:04 AM
          > Subject: [Marbling] Paper and alum treatment
          >
          >
          > I struggle with paper that has been treated with alum. When dry it
          becomes wrinkled and stiff - and avoiding air bubbles is a main issue.
          >
          > I can iron the papers, or put then in a press until dry. Even if the
          wrinkel is gone (to a certain degree) the paper seems still stiff and
          not so easy to handle.
          > Untreated papers work like a dream. But some must be treated to keep
          the colours.
          >
          > Should I try to have the papers a little moistened ? How will this
          affect the absorbsion" of colours ?
          > It's probably natural - but the dryer the stiffer.
          > My working environment is about 40%-50% RH.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jehannettedelille
          Iris, and other folks on this list... Could I convince you to make an equipment list for the different types of marbeling that you do? Could you talk about
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 3, 2009
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            Iris, and other folks on this list...

            Could I convince you to make an "equipment list" for the different types of marbeling that you do? Could you talk about the different results you get with various materials, etc and place this here in the files section? Getting clear references on these sorts of things is not easy for us newbs.

            Thanks so much!

            Jehannette
          • irisnevins
            There are many books available on the different types of marbling and the materials used. I am sure all the books have a materials list. For watercolor
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 3, 2009
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              There are many books available on the different types of marbling and the materials used. I am sure all the books have a materials list.

              For watercolor marbling, I use my own brand of watercolors formulated specifically for marbling, with a slant on them towards being able to closely match old book paper colors. They are to marbling paint what Williamsburg Paints are to house paints.
              I use only Carrageenan, ox gall, and aluminum sulfate or aluminum potassium sulfate. And you need a good paper. The only one I safely recommend now is the Dick Blick Sulfite paper, white, 18 X 24, either 60 or 80 pound. No 70 pound available. 80 handles better than 60, just my opinion. Both are pretty good.

              Really nothing fancy, no additives, no conditioners, no borax. I marble with extremely hard water, even though people say it is technically not possible. It is not only possible, but works just as well, I just use a little more carrageenan to get the same viscosity. I was to date never taught how to marble "properly", so I do some "wrong" things, but they happen to work. I keep it as simple and uncomplicated as possible. It's complicated and confusing enough on its own without adding more variables to it.

              Iris Nevins
              www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jehannettedelille<mailto:lady_blueshift@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:02 AM
              Subject: [Marbling] Re: Paper and alum treatment


              Iris, and other folks on this list...

              Could I convince you to make an "equipment list" for the different types of marbeling that you do? Could you talk about the different results you get with various materials, etc and place this here in the files section? Getting clear references on these sorts of things is not easy for us newbs.

              Thanks so much!

              Jehannette



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