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cheap paint and/or hard water... cobwebs?

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  • zahramoen
    Hi I had been experimenting with whatever paints I have around the house. all my attempts gave me cobwebs and most of the paints I could not manipulate...
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 21, 2009
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      Hi

      I had been experimenting with whatever paints I have around the house.
      all my attempts gave me "cobwebs" and most of the paints I could not manipulate... they floated ok but would just keep spreading and breaking up... if there was a circle and I tried to pull the color it would just tear... what is this caused by? old cheap paint? hard water?
      some of the paints would just keep spreading and breaking up untill nothing was left... the best paint was some old airbrush paint that my kids had - it could be pulled or drawn out but it still did the cobweb thing.

      thank you
      Zahra
    • irisnevins
      Try to use what has worked for others on this group consistently, rather than wasting materials left and right. They are expensive, carrageenan being the most.
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 21, 2009
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        Try to use what has worked for others on this group consistently, rather than wasting materials left and right. They are expensive, carrageenan being the most. Not to mention the discouragement it produces. Every "successful" marbler got there by making many such mistakes, so why not benefit from all our past mistakes, read up on what works or doesn't. You'll be a lot happier and save money.

        From my point of view, nothing beats good old fashioned watercolor marbling for predictability and consistency, and the widest variety of pattern possibilities, as well as for period reproduction work. I do use acrylic only for fabrics, and they are a little more irksome I find. I like the cheap acrylic stuff from WalMart, the Folk Craft, the Ceram-Coat etc. I do not use them often and sometimes the different batches of the same paint vary in every artists paint, and not all the colors/pigments work. The worst variable is that most makers are a bit slipshod in the amount of dispersant going into different batches. Then again you can't fault them, they are not making MARBLING paint, where this does matter, but paints for painting, where it makes no difference really. You need a basic red, blue, yellow, black and if desired a white. Keep bottles of as few colors needed and mix the rest. You cut out many variables this way, and can more closely pinpoint problems.

        It's best to get paints formulated specifically for marbling, but not all of what's called Marbling Paint works so great out there. I won't go into brands, but some over the years have been ridiculously bad, that are called marbling colors, and obviously not tested in depth by a very experienced marbler, or if so, they didn't care enough to tweak the formulas as directed. It's not just about getting them to float or draw well, but how each color/pigment interacts with the others. Being a marbling paint maker myself, that aspect is an exhausting study, that is actually still in progress! It seems it always will be to some degree. Each pigment has different chemical and physical properties that control the spread, or does it sink too fast, or push away other colors. Thus there is not just one recipe for marbling paint making, each color is different. I believe so called makers of much of the "Marbling Paint" out there do not take such care in the process, but I do know I do, and so does Nancy Morains at Colophon Book Arts Supply.

        Read some good books and follow the directions totally. What works for one will work for most. And I have ALWAYS wherever I have marbled for decades, used the worst hard water imaginable very successfully. The only difference I find is that you may need a little more size powder to make the same thickness bath of carrageenan if water is hard. I never knew, being self taught, the darned hard water doesn't work, so it just decided to work for me, in other words I adapted to it, and it is easy to adapt to and get the same results. The only thing I do not use it for is the water in the paints I make, that is distilled. If anything I am totally thrown when in a soft water situation and must learn to adapt!

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: zahramoen<mailto:zahramoen@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 1:41 PM
        Subject: [Marbling] cheap paint and/or hard water... cobwebs?


        Hi

        I had been experimenting with whatever paints I have around the house.
        all my attempts gave me "cobwebs" and most of the paints I could not manipulate... they floated ok but would just keep spreading and breaking up... if there was a circle and I tried to pull the color it would just tear... what is this caused by? old cheap paint? hard water?
        some of the paints would just keep spreading and breaking up untill nothing was left... the best paint was some old airbrush paint that my kids had - it could be pulled or drawn out but it still did the cobweb thing.

        thank you
        Zahra



        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • zahramoen
        Thank you very much Iris I do plan on exploring tried and true methods... old paints are old paints-sometimes still good sometimes not I hardly used a
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 21, 2009
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          Thank you very much Iris

          I do plan on exploring tried and true methods... old paints are old paints-sometimes still good sometimes not I hardly used a bottlecap full in testing them out(cuz I use them for other arts) and for sure not on carageenan(didn't have any yet anyway)... generic plain ol' gelatin is what I had tried... fiddling with it to get it to work... I plan on comparing gelatine with carageenan...if the gelatine works that would be good because it is way cheaper(some where I read that it was used as a size in asia)...I also found thus far that i don't need alum at the moment(i didn't have any and I was using acrylics any way).
          Later on, I think I'd like to try Galen Berry's paints.
          My goal is to marble fabric

          I find the science of marbling absolutely fascinating... I didn't think it would be that way... It's great

          Again, thank you so much

          Zahra
          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
          >
          > Try to use what has worked for others on this group consistently, rather than wasting materials left and right. They are expensive, carrageenan being the most. Not to mention the discouragement it produces. Every "successful" marbler got there by making many such mistakes, so why not benefit from all our past mistakes, read up on what works or doesn't. You'll be a lot happier and save money.
          >
          > From my point of view, nothing beats good old fashioned watercolor marbling for predictability and consistency, and the widest variety of pattern possibilities, as well as for period reproduction work. I do use acrylic only for fabrics, and they are a little more irksome I find. I like the cheap acrylic stuff from WalMart, the Folk Craft, the Ceram-Coat etc. I do not use them often and sometimes the different batches of the same paint vary in every artists paint, and not all the colors/pigments work. The worst variable is that most makers are a bit slipshod in the amount of dispersant going into different batches. Then again you can't fault them, they are not making MARBLING paint, where this does matter, but paints for painting, where it makes no difference really. You need a basic red, blue, yellow, black and if desired a white. Keep bottles of as few colors needed and mix the rest. You cut out many variables this way, and can more closely pinpoint problems.
          >
          > It's best to get paints formulated specifically for marbling, but not all of what's called Marbling Paint works so great out there. I won't go into brands, but some over the years have been ridiculously bad, that are called marbling colors, and obviously not tested in depth by a very experienced marbler, or if so, they didn't care enough to tweak the formulas as directed. It's not just about getting them to float or draw well, but how each color/pigment interacts with the others. Being a marbling paint maker myself, that aspect is an exhausting study, that is actually still in progress! It seems it always will be to some degree. Each pigment has different chemical and physical properties that control the spread, or does it sink too fast, or push away other colors. Thus there is not just one recipe for marbling paint making, each color is different. I believe so called makers of much of the "Marbling Paint" out there do not take such care in the process, but I do know I do, and so does Nancy Morains at Colophon Book Arts Supply.
          >
          > Read some good books and follow the directions totally. What works for one will work for most. And I have ALWAYS wherever I have marbled for decades, used the worst hard water imaginable very successfully. The only difference I find is that you may need a little more size powder to make the same thickness bath of carrageenan if water is hard. I never knew, being self taught, the darned hard water doesn't work, so it just decided to work for me, in other words I adapted to it, and it is easy to adapt to and get the same results. The only thing I do not use it for is the water in the paints I make, that is distilled. If anything I am totally thrown when in a soft water situation and must learn to adapt!
          >
          > Iris Nevins
          > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: zahramoen<mailto:zahramoen@...>
          > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 1:41 PM
          > Subject: [Marbling] cheap paint and/or hard water... cobwebs?
          >
          >
          > Hi
          >
          > I had been experimenting with whatever paints I have around the house.
          > all my attempts gave me "cobwebs" and most of the paints I could not manipulate... they floated ok but would just keep spreading and breaking up... if there was a circle and I tried to pull the color it would just tear... what is this caused by? old cheap paint? hard water?
          > some of the paints would just keep spreading and breaking up untill nothing was left... the best paint was some old airbrush paint that my kids had - it could be pulled or drawn out but it still did the cobweb thing.
          >
          > thank you
          > Zahra
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • irisnevins
          Oh...please treat yourself to carrageenan or methyl cel!! Iris Nevins www.marblingpaper.com [Non-text portions of this message
          Message 4 of 4 , Oct 21, 2009
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            Oh...please treat yourself to carrageenan or methyl cel!!
            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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