Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Question

Expand Messages
  • maricelcorde
    Im a newbe in marbling paper technique. I have two questions. If the use of alum as a mordant for marbling has always been problematic because of its acidic
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 21, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Im a newbe in marbling paper technique. I have two questions. If the use of alum as a mordant for marbling has always been problematic because of its acidic nature, is there another option?
      As I cant get carrageenan in my country I wonder if methyl cellulosa works as good?

      Thanks in advance for any coments.
      Maricel
    • irisnevins
      many of us have used alum for a long time. Some believe it actually might preserve the papers rather than destroy them. After marbling, the paper is usually
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 21, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        many of us have used alum for a long time. Some believe it actually might preserve the papers rather than destroy them. After marbling, the paper is usually only a very slight bit more acidic. People have been taught to think if it is below neutral it equals acidic which will always ruin itself and anything it dares to touch. Or it is the other side of neutral and will last forever.

        I have papers I marbled on acidic papers, about PH5-6 and then alumed them and marbled them and yet they are still perfect, no problems and none reported and they have graced the boards of and made end sheets for many extremely valuable books. I wouldn't worry so much about it. One can always de-acidify the papers after with Wei-To spray or running through a bath with milk of magnesia in the water if desired. Really it is the presence of lignins in paper that eat it, and nearly all printing and art papers these days are lignin free. You can expect your papers to last an extremely long time even if alum is used.

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: maricelcorde<mailto:maricelcorde@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 7:08 PM
        Subject: [Marbling] Question


        Im a newbe in marbling paper technique. I have two questions. If the use of alum as a mordant for marbling has always been problematic because of its acidic nature, is there another option?
        As I cant get carrageenan in my country I wonder if methyl cellulosa works as good?

        Thanks in advance for any coments.
        Maricel




        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • irisnevins
        PS.... meant to say the papers that were done over 31 years ago on acidic and alumed paper are still perfect. ... From:
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 21, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          PS.... meant to say the papers that were done over 31 years ago on acidic and alumed paper are still perfect.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: irisnevins<mailto:irisnevins@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:11 PM
          Subject: Re: [Marbling] Question


          many of us have used alum for a long time. Some believe it actually might preserve the papers rather than destroy them. After marbling, the paper is usually only a very slight bit more acidic. People have been taught to think if it is below neutral it equals acidic which will always ruin itself and anything it dares to touch. Or it is the other side of neutral and will last forever.

          I have papers I marbled on acidic papers, about PH5-6 and then alumed them and marbled them and yet they are still perfect, no problems and none reported and they have graced the boards of and made end sheets for many extremely valuable books. I wouldn't worry so much about it. One can always de-acidify the papers after with Wei-To spray or running through a bath with milk of magnesia in the water if desired. Really it is the presence of lignins in paper that eat it, and nearly all printing and art papers these days are lignin free. You can expect your papers to last an extremely long time even if alum is used.

          Iris Nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: maricelcorde<mailto:maricelcorde@...<mailto:maricelcorde@...>>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
          Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 7:08 PM
          Subject: [Marbling] Question


          Im a newbe in marbling paper technique. I have two questions. If the use of alum as a mordant for marbling has always been problematic because of its acidic nature, is there another option?
          As I cant get carrageenan in my country I wonder if methyl cellulosa works as good?

          Thanks in advance for any coments.
          Maricel




          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dixongarrett
          Alum (aluminum sulfate and potassium aluminum sulfate) are still the standard mordants. The concern over degradation of paper with alum arose in the 19th
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 21, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Alum (aluminum sulfate and potassium aluminum sulfate) are still the standard mordants. The concern over degradation of paper with alum arose in the 19th century when rosin and alum were added for sizing in paper. This combination along with unrefined wood pulp containing lignins resulted in very poor quality paper. It has been postulated that the aluminum sulfate converts to hydrogen sulfate (or sulfuric acid)destroying the paper. Studies have shown that the presence of alum in papers is associated with more rapid deterioration of paper than those that do not contain alum. However, alum has been used in paper making or sizing since at least the 15th century. The use of alum for marbling is mentioned in the Diderot/d'Alembert encyclopedia article on marbling from the late 18th century. If hydrogen sulfate turns out to be the culprit, a substitute is aluminum acetate. This works very well (actually has a greater affinity for cellulose than aluminum sulfate), but is more expensive than alum. Joseph Halfer preferred this to standard alum for marbling. I have also been able to marble using cationic retention agents (Percol 292) which are commonly used to bind color in paper pulp. It is more difficult to use than alum, but will work reasonably well.
            If you are new to paper marbling, I would not be concerned about mordants. There are so many variables to deal with that it is best to become comfortable with marbling as it is usually done before investigating more complex approaches. As far as methylcellulose is concerned, many marblers use this and are quite satisfied with the results, although you may not be able to achieve as fine detail as with the use of carragheenan.
            Garrett Dixon




            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "maricelcorde" <maricelcorde@...> wrote:
            >
            > Im a newbe in marbling paper technique. I have two questions. If the use of alum as a mordant for marbling has always been problematic because of its acidic nature, is there another option?
            > As I cant get carrageenan in my country I wonder if methyl cellulosa works as good?
            >
            > Thanks in advance for any coments.
            > Maricel
            >
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.